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Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 16:57

Army moves troops of Sukna-Based 33 Corps to India-China border
https://www.thequint.com/india/2017/08/ ... ina-border

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 11 Aug 2017 21:28

No defence for the MoD -
Seema Sirohi, ET

The defence relationship is said to be the strongest link in the India-US strategic partnership, bolstered by annual military exercises, growing arms sales and winsome rhetoric. Last year, the US declared India a ‘major defence partner’ to quicken the pace of cooperation and technology transfer.

India’s ministry of defence (MoD) has spawned a bank of stories in Washington, each more appalling than the last and all recounted with a tinge of sadness. The latest installment of sorry tales — the MoD missed the deadline for five free courses for Indian military officers at the US National War College. All three services wanted the courses.
But mysterious processes at the MoD resulted in the forfeiture of more than $225,000 in US government funds allocated for India. The one-year fellowship is the most sought after by defence personnel from around the world, including India’s neighbours.

Indian military officers have embarrassingly limited powers to make decisions. They can’t even decide if they can attend a seminar or a conference without MoD clearance. US officials have told me countless stories over the years about how three-star US generals have not been allowed to meet their Indian counterparts. Instead, an MoD or foreign office mandarin takes a seat. This is just stupid.

Producing basic weapons quickly and well with US technology transfer will do more for India’s industrial base than nurturing futuristic dreams. As Lt. Gen. Sarath Chand, India’s Vice Chief of Army Staff, starkly reminded us, Pakistan has a better military industrial base and exports more defence equipment than India.
He bemoaned the lack of R&D in ordnance factories where they couldn’t even assemble products imported from abroad. Nepal has even refused free Indian rifles.
If Chand’s public comment and the recent CAG report don’t light a fire under the decision-makers, nothing will.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Atmavik » 12 Aug 2017 09:00

Security Scan- Defence Reforms : Shekatkar Commitee Report

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnM6q8851LY

key points:

This comity is driven from the top.

1 increase of defence budget to 2.5 - 3 % of GDP.
2 financil powers for Service Cheifs
3 re-structuring of OFB, DRDO, ASC etc..
4 rolling budget where un used funds are not returned
5 optimization of non combat resources.
6 Joint commands for cyber, space and Special Ops
7 move NCC to HRD

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby g.sarkar » 12 Aug 2017 10:59


The Pentagon has always admired Pakistan and its military with its pseudo Sandhurst accents and whisky drinking. It has encouraged Pak coups and sometimes even financed them. Democracy, civilian control of the military etc. are things meant for the European countries not the third world. India should get what it can from the US, without getting too close to it. If they want smart soldiers that take instant decisions with no civilian control, they can always go back to Pakistan and its army. I am sure they will welcome the US back. More welcome is US money, no one pays like Sher Khan.
Gautam

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 12 Aug 2017 12:09

g.sarkar wrote:

The Pentagon has always admired Pakistan and its military with its pseudo Sandhurst accents and whisky drinking. It has encouraged Pak coups and sometimes even financed them. Democracy, civilian control of the military etc. are things meant for the European countries not the third world. India should get what it can from the US, without getting too close to it. If they want smart soldiers that take instant decisions with no civilian control, they can always go back to Pakistan and its army. I am sure they will welcome the US back. More welcome is US money, no one pays like Sher Khan.
Gautam



Image

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2017 13:07

The lack of accountability in the DPSUs and chalta hai attitude of the DRDO in the past has been the bane of our indigenous def. R&D and production.The OFB's sub-std. products ,costing us billions,has simply been swept under the carpet with zero accountability on those who headed the org. and its projects.There should be swift inquiries to find those responsible and swifter arrests and sentences.Unless the fear of the lathi and harsh imprisonment understood by those in the def. sector,we'll be debating this a century from now unless our enemies have prevailed over us thanks to such dereliction of duty by those responsible for the nation';s security.

If simple items like infantry rifles,etc. are designed,developed and made at home,then the scaling up of more sophisticated wares will happen rapidly.How is it that the ISRO and IN can achieve so much whereas the IA and IAF languish and like infants cry to be spoonfed with only firang "milkfood?" The entire SE tender for the IAF is a disgrace to the nation when the LCA has achieved its initial milestone and appears to be sidelined in favour of the firang SE fighter. Numbers can easily be made up by acquiring more aircraft of types in the existing inventory-some like the MKI being built at home with increasing desi %. The Jag upgrade which would complement the LCA's close support/strike role has been unduly delayed for no apparent reason as the engine and JV partner (Raytheon) has been chosen years ago! No sign of the promised "second line" for the LCA at all,and imagine how long it will take to build even a new line for the firang SE fighter!

Why the IA hasn't started its own desi design department for all milware beats me.It consumes the largest share of the budget and desi products.improvements to the simplest of items reqd. for the infantry would make a huge diff. both in fighting capability and saving money.Since it has been dissatisfied with the CVRDE and Arjun for decades,it should've instead come up with its own set of reqs and concepts for the future.Ultimately it si the political bosses who are responsible.10 years of dereliction of duty by the UPA must be rectified by the NDA well before its first term under Mr.Modi ends.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 12 Aug 2017 14:12

We need to recognize the difference in criticism of MOD within forces from that of outside specially the Pentagon; a completely lethargic and useless MOD is not what pains Pentagon; what pains Pentagon is that it is difficult to get into Indian arms market on their own terms . That is why that snide comparison with TSPA .

The only way to bring about a change in any system is to become part of it unless of course you can uproot it and stand up a better one ; in case of MOD the only way right way forward is for the retired military personnel to be given some accommodation there via extension of service via a systematic selection process which will always ensure that MOD is sensitive to the concerns of the forces not because it has to but more importantly because it is part of it's DNA. I believe a better way of achieving that is to allow men of Indian armed forces to pursue a career in administration i.e. the IAS after they have completed their 20 years of service in the forces on voluntary basis , I could be ridiculed for making such a remark but having seen a things in life us vs them seldom solves any problems the best way forward is to allow people who strongly feel for a cause to take positions of power where they can do something about it.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 12 Aug 2017 20:04

g.sarkar wrote:

The Pentagon has always admired Pakistan and its military with its pseudo Sandhurst accents and whisky drinking. It has encouraged Pak coups and sometimes even financed them. Democracy, civilian control of the military etc. are things meant for the European countries not the third world. India should get what it can from the US, without getting too close to it. If they want smart soldiers that take instant decisions with no civilian control, they can always go back to Pakistan and its army. I am sure they will welcome the US back. More welcome is US money, no one pays like Sher Khan.
Gautam

In principle I agree with the need to keep the US at arms length. This type of stuff however has nothing to do with coups and civilian control. Making decisions on 4 people in a course won't make any great difference to our civil-military relationship. It is instead about the general tendency of any bureaucracy to accumulate power and centralize decisions. This coupled with a great IAS resistance to taking decisions(and the responsibility that goes with it) leads to paralysis. And sure, perhaps you don't want people to go to for eg. the school of the Americas with the attendant bad press. Would it be so hard to have the IFS come up with a yearly whitelist of schools that officers can go to? In fact I suspect this probably exists in some form. If the Govt is not paying for it, is in line with foreign policy and the services can spare the officers what exactly is there for the IAS to decide about?

We've started dismantling the license raj but it needs to go further in most ministries with power being devolved to subject matter experts from generalist IAS officers. This push will never come from within the bureaucracy.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 13 Aug 2017 00:11

anjan wrote:
g.sarkar wrote:The Pentagon has always admired Pakistan and its military with its pseudo Sandhurst accents and whisky drinking. It has encouraged Pak coups and sometimes even financed them. Democracy, civilian control of the military etc. are things meant for the European countries not the third world. India should get what it can from the US, without getting too close to it. If they want smart soldiers that take instant decisions with no civilian control, they can always go back to Pakistan and its army. I am sure they will welcome the US back. More welcome is US money, no one pays like Sher Khan.
Gautam

In principle I agree with the need to keep the US at arms length. This type of stuff however has nothing to do with coups and civilian control. Making decisions on 4 people in a course won't make any great difference to our civil-military relationship. It is instead about the general tendency of any bureaucracy to accumulate power and centralize decisions. This coupled with a great IAS resistance to taking decisions(and the responsibility that goes with it) leads to paralysis. And sure, perhaps you don't want people to go to for eg. the school of the Americas with the attendant bad press. Would it be so hard to have the IFS come up with a yearly whitelist of schools that officers can go to? In fact I suspect this probably exists in some form. If the Govt is not paying for it, is in line with foreign policy and the services can spare the officers what exactly is there for the IAS to decide about?

We've started dismantling the license raj but it needs to go further in most ministries with power being devolved to subject matter experts from generalist IAS officers. This push will never come from within the bureaucracy.


we have been paying and doing such courses for years and years now and we started decades ago. They come to our institutions, send their uniformed officers here regularly and we d the same in some other countries too.

Many of our clueless baboo(n)s also wrangle their way into these foreign courses. They send tens of their favourite guys to foreign universities every year.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby g.sarkar » 14 Aug 2017 05:09

anjan wrote:In principle I agree with the need to keep the US at arms length. This type of stuff however has nothing to do with coups and civilian control. Making decisions on 4 people in a course won't make any great difference to our civil-military relationship. It is instead about the general tendency of any bureaucracy to accumulate power and centralize decisions. This coupled with a great IAS resistance to taking decisions(and the responsibility that goes with it) leads to paralysis. And sure, perhaps you don't want people to go to for eg. the school of the Americas with the attendant bad press. Would it be so hard to have the IFS come up with a yearly whitelist of schools that officers can go to? In fact I suspect this probably exists in some form. If the Govt is not paying for it, is in line with foreign policy and the services can spare the officers what exactly is there for the IAS to decide about?
We've started dismantling the license raj but it needs to go further in most ministries with power being devolved to subject matter experts from generalist IAS officers. This push will never come from within the bureaucracy.

Anjanji,
That is not the point. If the Pentagon is unhappy with one thing of the Indian army today, if fixed at the sole behest of the US, it will be unhappy with another thing tomorrow. And this cycle will go on. Sher Khan will always prefer Boris Yeltsin to Putin; and a hibernating Indian PM like MMS to one that does not asleep (for more than 3 hours I am told). India should fix its problems with Babus or other problems in its own way, not from the prompting of Khan. The bottom line is that as a super power Khan is not a friend and will always probe for weakness to exploit. That is its nature. I remember reading a long time ago that every Indian military attaché in USA is routinely asked for flipping and working for the CIA. This is the danger of getting near Khan, we might lose our soul. We did not have this problem with the USSR, or had it to a much lesser extent. That was because the USSR was internally much weaker. US is much stronger, and has money, student scholarships and green cards to throw to the Babus to get cooperation. We should see the example of Pakistan, where visiting US masters make it a point to see the jernails along with the current civilian bosses.
Gautam

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 14 Aug 2017 21:55

g.sarkar wrote:That is not the point. If the Pentagon is unhappy with one thing of the Indian army today, if fixed at the sole behest of the US, it will be unhappy with another thing tomorrow. And this cycle will go on. Sher Khan will always prefer Boris Yeltsin to Putin; and a hibernating Indian PM like MMS to one that does not asleep (for more than 3 hours I am told). India should fix its problems with Babus or other problems in its own way, not from the prompting of Khan. The bottom line is that as a super power Khan is not a friend and will always probe for weakness to exploit. That is its nature. I remember reading a long time ago that every Indian military attaché in USA is routinely asked for flipping and working for the CIA. This is the danger of getting near Khan, we might lose our soul. We did not have this problem with the USSR, or had it to a much lesser extent. That was because the USSR was internally much weaker. US is much stronger, and has money, student scholarships and green cards to throw to the Babus to get cooperation. We should see the example of Pakistan, where visiting US masters make it a point to see the jernails along with the current civilian bosses.
Gautam
By most accounts India is/was thoroughly infiltrated by the KGB/GRU and the CIA already. That's irrelevant though because I assume the aim is not to be infiltrated by anyone. Foreign courses are not some novelty in any case. At any given time there are probably hundreds of Indian officers in military courses across the world, much as officers from other countries come to ours. And civil administrative and technical courses as chetak points out. It's not like this is some extraordinary interaction with the US either. It is one of the primary countries that we exchange personnel, civil and military, with. Our current Def Sec is a Harvard Mason Fellow and almost everyone I looked up in the who's who directory in the MoD has been on foreign training courses. This argument has no legs.

That apart I'm not sure what you're suggesting. That we don't fix a systemic flaw just because it's being exposed by one interaction with one country that we're suspicious of?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 14 Aug 2017 22:45

For the unmanned BMP Munthra they can add a CIWS, maybe Phalanx and see how it performs against a rocket artillery bombardment that can be tested maybe using Grads

Post war, one can always clean up the 5 by 5 sq. km area of the spent shells using the same Munthra platform modded to detect and collect these shells to keep the environment clean. This might work in low vegetation areas such the Tibetan plateau

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2017 04:13

Seema Sirohi was posted in DC as Foreign Affairs correspondent during the early 90s for a Delhi newspaper.

So she herself could be batting for US masters.


Just take every article with a pinch of salt.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 16 Aug 2017 19:16

Defence canteen, India’s top retailer, to go online

The Canteen Stores Department (CSD) — which supplies goods at concessional rates to defense personnel from the Army, Navy and Air Force — is undergoing a makeover. CSD, which is facing unusual criticism with regard to alleged restrictions being imposed on products, is not only looking at expanding its depots but is also putting in place systems to ensure its 1.2 crore customers get to purchase the latest fast-moving consumer goods (FMCG) off CSD's Unit Retail Canteen (URC) shelves, as do their civilian counterparts from the various modern retailers and kirana stores.

The country's largest retail network, which closed the fiscal year 2016-17 with a turnover of Rs 17,000 crore, is also working with partner companies on a model that would reduce the time lag and inconvenience involved in the purchase of white goods. The objective is to make sure cardholders get the latest range of white goods to choose from, which is not the case today.


Major contributors to CSD's sales are toiletries (around Rs 4,500 crore), white goods and cars (around Rs 4,000 crore), packaged foods and supplements (Rs 3,500 crore), liquor (Rs 3,000 crore) and other household goods & luggage (around Rs 3,000 crore).

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 17 Aug 2017 01:28

Two part article on what is being done to fix the ammo shortages

Part 1

Gautam Moorthy & Syed Ata Hasnain

Two major heart-warming decisions by the government: the first came before the Doklam standoff and the second even as the Chinese continue to blow hot and hot with intimidation, threats and rhetoric.

The Army has been delegated special financial powers by the government to make up its critical deficiencies in ammunition and spares. This was received with much satisfaction among those whose responsibility it is to ensure that the fighting troops get the wherewithal to implement the military goals set out for them.

Setting a figure of Rs 40,000 crores for this is not a small sum even though making up critical deficiencies may need much more. Then the Ministry of Defence (MoD) demanded an additional of Rs 20,000 crores, presumably for the current annual defence budget for the purpose of once again making up deficiencies in ammunition and spares. The latter presumption is a fair one considering that acquiring weapon systems at this stage to meet the Chinese threat may be too little, too late.

Some have even put a number on it: about Rs 98,000 crores if we wish to make up ammunition for the 40 day-reserves by 2019.

{NoteRs 60,000 crores of the Rs 98,000 crores (i.e.2/3) have been provisionsed. But some peolpe want evrythin yesterday.}

Governments in the past appeared to believe the threat of conventional war to be either non-existent or negligible enough not to warrant even making up of deficiencies, let alone a sustained build-up. Or perhaps the view was that we have lived with the deficiency for many years and could do so for some more, in the absence of ‘real threats’. The real threat seems to be upon us now and the procedure to release and delegate additional funds has been in progress for the last few months.


The current government has fathomed the seriousness of the issue and has moved to empower the Vice Chief of the Army Staff (VCOAS) to move ahead without the Army having to look over its shoulder. It is a critical decision for the Army whose current holdings of major war fighting equipment cannot be effectively brought to bear on the enemy and would be rendered ineffective in the absence of critical spares and ammunition.

So what has actually been done? First of all, and perhaps a case of better late than never, the government has finally accepted the inability of the ordnance factories to meet the annual targets set by the army, targets that the factories themselves agree to. Ten separate contracts in respect of various ammunition items have been signed under the delegated financial powers of the VCOAS.

To diversify the supply chain, the army is procuring ammunition from private industry as well as public sector undertakings (PSUs),
a domain that was entirely of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) until now. It is also in keeping with the Make in India philosophy. ‘Requests For Proposals’ for various types of ammunition items, 22 in all, have been issued to Indian companies for the first time in history since Independence. Invitation of
bids have been asked for supplying yearly quantities, for a contractual period of ten years under ‘Manufacture of Ammunition for Indian Army by Indian Industry’ initiative.


Full powers have to be given to the Army HQ to procure operationally critical ammunition and spare parts. Additional steps include monitoring of delivery to the Army by the manufacturers by fixing numerical targets instead of financial targets, strict budgetary controls, an eagle eye focus on quality and an increase in storage capacities.

Critical equipment, ammunition and spares have to be put in the hands of the fighting formations early enough, perhaps as early as to empower and enable our formations not to be deterred by the bellicose Chinese threats and propaganda.

Consequent to the devastating fire that took place last year in the ammunition depot at Pulgaon near Nagpur that killed 19 people, the MoD, has approved a procedure for disposal of dangerous ammunition and regularisation of losses for defective ammunition to bring in accountability in the functioning of ammunition factories that are under the OFB, which till now were not held accountable. However, much remains to be done on the major issue of quality checks during manufacturing.

Lt. Gen. Syed Ata Hasnain (Retd), a former GOC of Srinagar-based 15 Corps, is associated with the Vivekanand International Foundation and the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies. Twitter: @atahasnain53

Lt Gen Gautam Moorthy, former DG Ordnance Services, is now a part of the
Armed Forces Tribunal at Kolkata. Twitter: @GautamMoorthy ‏



Link to Part 2 is in first part

In the second of a two-part series on the ammunition shortage in the Army, Abhijit Iyer-Mitra writes that the Army was willing to let massive shortages accrue in a dangerous game of brinksmanship to extract more money from the bureaucracy. Read the first part.

Abhijit Iyer-Mitra

Motives have been attributed to the CAG report for pointing out the Army’s critical ammunition shortages. However, the CAG report has been the single biggest enabler of combat effectiveness in the last decade – the government releasing upto Rs. 40,000 crores to tide over critical shortages.

It is laudable as a short-term measure, but in the medium to long term, this will merely act as a failure-reinforcing mechanism – intending to fund readiness but ending up subsidising obsolescence and rewarding ossification.

Why exactly have these ammunition shortages arisen? The answer is very clear – the generals have over decades prioritised flashy, new “status” items like tanks – preferring to accumulate tanks, rather than building up stocks of ammunition for those tanks to fire. This is not something new and fits well with the Indian psyche. Much of medieval India’s income was spent on acquiring war horses from Arabia, even after the equation had been decisively settled in favour of infantry. While the export of Arab stallions were allowed, the export of mares for breeding was banned on pain of death so that India would never be able to develop and indigenous horse breeding capability. Tellingly, not one Indian ruler, ever invested either in an intelligence operation to capture a bunch of mares, nor did they move away from cavalry – horse or elephant towards infantry – preferring peacockery & vainglory to operational readiness.

When the Army decided to purchase tanks – the latest being the T-90, the generals wanted their capital outlays for the procurement of the actual beast. Not one general, however, wanted to give up part of this outlay for a robust improvement to the Ordinance Factory Board (OFB) capabilities in order to deliver ammunition in time. This is a classic case of “for want of nail the kingdom was lost”.

To many people this seems like plain and simple blackmail – buying unusable equipment in the short-term, forcing financial costs on the civilian leadership to make that equipment usable in the medium term – effectively financial mismanagement followed by blackmail, literally at the point of a gun.

If we know the OFB is an obsolete dinosaur that will never deliver, why persist in making national security dependent on a known failure? This fact alone should have forced the Army to move into new ways of war – discarding the old lumbering armoured formations for light, highly mobile infantry and focussing on quality instead of quantity. Such a shift would organically move Indian military thinking from obsolete notions of ground control, which are now ruinously expensive because of the emergence of sub-urban warfare to area denial and strike which can deliver rapid and tangible results to political masters.

Sadly, jeeps and trucks simply aren’t as sexy as tanks, forget the fact that France controls and area of North Africa twice the size of India with just jeeps and tanks & it was American jeeps, not tanks that made the first forays into Baghdad in the 2003 US Invasion.

Finally, we must equally realise that wars are no longer won by the army – but rather by Air Forces and Navies. Yet instead of becoming a small but effective army, the Army’s leadership has chosen to remain a lumbering, poorly equipped giant. When the ill-considered move to create the mountain strike corps to deal with China was initiated, every commentator had pointed out the massive logistical trail and economic costs, yet the army leadership earmarked no funds for this persisting in wasteful expenditure, forcing the civilians to divert other resources to make this division operational over and above the allocation they sought. The problem is on the China border using infantry is literally an uphill battle – whereas air combat works to our advantage. Yet the army in its turf battle to get more money insisting on creating what is in effect a suicide squad that will suffer some of the worst attrition for the least gains, simply because size and budget translate to strength in the Indian system.

What we need to understand is that neither was the government “sleeping” as some have claimed, nor is the Army a “valiant & stoic” party as others have posited. The ammunition shortages are a result of normal bargaining process that happens between every army and bureaucracy. However, in the Indian case, it was the Army that was willing to let massive shortages accrue in a dangerous game of brinksmanship, trying to extract more money from the bureaucracy. Ultimately, the bureaucracy blinked and lost a critical opportunity for forcing much-needed reforms in doctrine and war fighting down the army’s throat.

That this will secure India in the short term is undeniable, that this sets a dangerous precedent, rewards failure and recklessness and will come back to bite us in the long term is equally undeniable.

Abhijit Iyer-Mitra, senior fellow at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies. Twitter: @iyervval



\The second part article is a polemic and detracts from the first part. Will comment on it in Twitter too.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 17 Aug 2017 01:50


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 17 Aug 2017 23:21

With IAF landing fighters and perhaps C-130s soon enough on highways, as well as most of the ALGs being unpaved, in the vast areas of Tibet can they air drop the Unmanned BMPs (Munthra) suitably modified to do some ground leveling work for building makeshift ALGs? probably helpful in the recovery phase of fighters or establishing a bridgehead

these landings were dusty enough they should have used some water bowsers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KUprBZsdcI

the same unmanned BMPs can be used to clear the hairpin bends of snow in the mountains where possible during winters? to clear the way for the rest of the traffic

they should be able to handle these makeshift ALGs in Tibet during winters too

There are probably enough maps of the terrain to determine where these ALGs are possible with least amount of effort should the need arise, definitely an advance over just having some 3000 helipads? in the Himalayas

when actually acted upon probably a CIWS is a necessity for the few days of its life

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby schinnas » 17 Aug 2017 23:42

India very desperately needs a very very capable full time defense minister with minimum 5 years continuity of tenure and equally smart combination of defence secretary and army chief that are willing to put country first and ego next.

The rot in defence, both MoD and Army is so deep that it will take years of focussed work to correct past mistakes.

With increasing payroll, we should move towards a smaller but we'll equipped army. 1.3 million strong standing army isn't sustainable anymore.

We have very strong para military forces for border patrol and COIN and large number of special forces for heavy duty terror neutralization.

We need to move to around 700K strong army that is better equipped and empowered with more mobility, fire power, night vision capabilities supported by sufficient number of attack helicopters and missile and rocket force. It will be more powerful than an army twice it's size but ill equipped.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby VinodTK » 18 Aug 2017 01:00

schinnas wrote:India very desperately needs a very very capable full time defense minister with minimum 5 years continuity of tenure and equally smart combination of defence secretary and army chief that are willing to put country first and ego next.
:
:
We need to move to around 700K strong army that is better equipped and empowered with more mobility, fire power, night vision capabilities supported by sufficient number of attack helicopters and missile and rocket force. It will be more powerful than an army twice it's size but ill equipped.


+++ With due respect to the current Govt., the lack of DM is a huge disservice to the country

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2017 06:12

Time for Gen VK Singh to take over as Defence Minister. Shake up the MoD :)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby VinodTK » 18 Aug 2017 06:44

Rakesh wrote:Time for Gen VK Singh to take over as Defence Minister. Shake up the MoD :)

DM should be a disrupter and VK Singh would do a good job in shaking up the bureaucratic setup

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2017 06:53

General Singh is currently the Union Minister of State for External Affairs, under Minister Sushma Swaraj.

Tis time for a Commando to lead the MoD.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gagan » 18 Aug 2017 07:22

vasu raya wrote:With IAF landing fighters and perhaps C-130s soon enough on highways, as well as most of the ALGs being unpaved, in the vast areas of Tibet can they air drop the Unmanned BMPs (Munthra) suitably modified to do some ground leveling work for building makeshift ALGs? probably helpful in the recovery phase of fighters or establishing a bridgehead

these landings were dusty enough they should have used some water bowsers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KUprBZsdcI

They had an AN-32 land at Nyoma, which is actually at a higher elevation than DBO.
The ALG is compacted with a cement mix, with soil, so that it is hard. In this landing, one does not see as much dust raised when the plane lands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYisZHzz1fA

I wonder what would have happened to the C-130's engines, once it reversed propellers to slow down at DBO - :eek:

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby krishna_krishna » 18 Aug 2017 07:32

https://elitepredators.wordpress.com

The URL is gold mine for para sf exploits in the valley. Didn't know Marcos were targeted twice on first day of deployment pretty strong pattern wonder how Intel agencies not able to get the rat

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2017 08:45

mainly the MOD oversight (civilian superiority) on every little thing has to be broken as a system and not through special modes like army VC given a permit to buy up ammo.

recently it came to light even to improve perimeter security with new civil works and tech, the army has to clear files with the MOD.

the MOD should be staffed only with defence people not IAS/IFS/civilians in managerial role. corruption might still be there, but files will move fast and people will know what is the urgency. the Pentagon has a defence secy a political appointee but other than that the generals lead the show.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2017 08:52

krishna_krishna wrote:https://elitepredators.wordpress.com

The URL is gold mine for para sf exploits in the valley. Didn't know Marcos were targeted twice on first day of deployment pretty strong pattern wonder how Intel agencies not able to get the rat


Shiv saar will love the photo SEAL vs real SEAL comparison :lol:
https://elitepredators.wordpress.com/20 ... -equipped/

the badass 4 tube export denied 4th gen NVG wah wah. zero dark 30 made it world famous.

meantime the delta force continues to operate in a very low profile way as designed...while Seals hog the limelights, photo shoots and wah wah taaliyan. the russians must be having similar ultra low profile units perhaps a resurrected "grom" (thunder) that yuri andropov as kgb head founded in his tenure. said to be staffed with seasoned types fluent in many foreign languages.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Kashi » 18 Aug 2017 08:53

krishna_krishna wrote:The URL is gold mine for para sf exploits in the valley. Didn't know Marcos were targeted twice on first day of deployment pretty strong pattern wonder how Intel agencies not able to get the rat


Appreciate the information in there, the articles could do with some proof-reading though..

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 18 Aug 2017 09:25

Kashi wrote:Appreciate the information in there, the articles could do with some proof-reading though..

Off topic, and no offence intended. I do not mean to be unkind, and I don't know exactly what you meant by "proof reading" - but over the years - and particularly in recent years - I have stopped caring about Indians using bad English or pronunciation because I detected a part of my own mind as having been deeply colonized. I was indoctrinated from age 8 to be ultra careful about how to spell and pronounce English and after making it my first language I found myself in the company of a cocky bunch of Macaulayputras who were always calling out (in fact mocking) Indians for their English and pronunciation.

I see that this mockery and disdain of the good english fellas about the poor english guys actually leads to loss of self esteem among Indians. This is sad because of a different fact that makes me laugh. We pride ourselves in how well we do abroad and how much we have achieved in IT - but still there is no Indian English dictionary that will not underline and query words like "shiv" or "kashi" as typos and suggest "shim" or "Kashmir" as replacement words. To me that is a clear case of fractal recursivity. The colonized becomes the colonizer and accepts the colonizers attitudes. If I type Donald - my dicktionary is happy. If I heard Doonald Duck (as my late mother used to say) - my Macaulay mind would laugh and "correct" her.

The way to grab English is to digest it and make it our own accepting it as normal when the mallu nurse sings "Showers of blessing' and Sha-warez of blay-sing"

Sorry. Totally OT

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Kashi » 18 Aug 2017 09:40

shiv wrote:Off topic, and no offence intended. I do not mean to be unkind


No offence taken. I see your point. As you said, this is OT so I'll post my reply later in the Nukkad.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby A Deshmukh » 18 Aug 2017 10:34

With regards Apache deal with for the Army.
Criticism is on the following aspects:
1. The deal seems costly.
Will wait for more info to come out for a Cost benefit analysis.
We paid $3B for 22Apache and 15 Chinooks. I don't have exact breakup.
Since this is an option clause, the prices would be the same. maybe few % of inflation.
If IAF pays or IA pays does it matter?
The deal seems bad because IA is paying for a costly item.

2. Does Army need combat helicopters?
Yes. Theater command is not moving to reality.
AF seems reluctant to letting go of control over planes and helicopters.
Army needs combat force multipliers.
Army can focus on anti-tank and other army specific battles.
AF can focus on anti-radar and anti-missile battles.
I believe, IAF is slow in understanding the priorities or combat needs of Army.

3. Does Army need Apache when LCH and Rudra are coming?
Debatable but why-not.
Army needs a Shock and Awe weapon.
Apaches can be the tip of the attacking spear.
Ably supported by 100s of LCHs swords.

4. Apache is not good for mountain heights.
This would be TSP specific offensive weapon.

5. Why American Apache, and not some European or Russian Combat copter.
this is the price to pay for getting Americans on our side.

6. Army needs separate maintenance unit. which adds to the cost.
even if they were with IAF, there would have been multiple locations and hence cost.

7. too small numbers to make an impact.
I believe Apaches will fly in tandem with LCHs.
Army needs combat copters in 100s. which cannot be Apaches.
With numbers this low, it does not affect the LCH orders.

If the pricing is the same as IAF Apaches, I dont see much downside.
It will be good if Apaches will change the IA mindset to more offensive tactics.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 18 Aug 2017 15:18

I like the part about IA getting the choppers ; this gives IA some autonomy in terms of operations and also reduces the overhead around cross services chatter as for turf wars that is for 'insecure' to worry about . I just hope that this leads to IA top brass think about LCH in the long term and throw their weight behind the program ; the budget is always going to be an issue if 70% of a Apache cost is committed to LCH that itself will translate to a lot of good for both the LCH team as well as the IA.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby VinodTK » 19 Aug 2017 01:45

Defence ministry junks machine guns order for foot soldiers
NEW DELHI: In yet another major blow to the Army's modernisation plans, the procurement plan for over 44,000 light machine guns (LMGs) for its humble foot soldiers in the infantry has been scrapped by the defence ministry.
This is the third such project, after the cases for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines, to be junked over the last two years. This once again shows that often in race to acquire big weapon systems like tanks and howitzers, desperate need to equip soldiers with basic infantry weapons, bullet-proof jackets, webbing and ballistic helmets often fall by the wayside.
Sources said the defence ministry had "retracted" the tender or RFP (request for proposal) for the 7.62mm calibre LMGs on the ground that it had become a "single-vendor situation" with only the Israeli Weapon Industries (IWI) left in the fray after protracted field trials from December 2015 to February 2017.
The mega "Buy and Make" procurement plan involved an initial direct purchase of around 4,400 LMGs from a foreign armament company, followed by a tie-up with the Ordnance factory Board with transfer of technology for large-scale indigenous production. The entire project would have cost an estimated Rs 13,000 crore.

The dumping of the project comes after MoD late last year also scrapped tender issued in 2010 for 44,618 close-quarter battle carbines, in which too IWI had emerged as "resultant single-vendor" over Italian firm Beretta, amid allegations of irregularities and political intrigue.
Last September, the Army was also forced to re-launch its global hunt for around two lakh new-generation 7.62mm x 51mm assault rifles after similar bids over last decade were scrapped due to corruption scandals, unrealistic technical requirements and change in calibre of the desired guns, as was first reported by TOI.
The last RFP for the assault rifles was scrapped in May 2015 because of the Army's overambitious experiment to induct rifles with interchangeable barrels, with a 5.56x45mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62x39mm secondary one for counter-terrorism. "The three cases spell big trouble for the Infantry, which has been grappling with outdated basic weapons and lack of proper bullet-proof jackets for long. Given the long-winded defence procurement procedure, it will years for the new guns to be inducted," said a source.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 19 Aug 2017 20:23

Gagan wrote:
vasu raya wrote:With IAF landing fighters and perhaps C-130s soon enough on highways, as well as most of the ALGs being unpaved, in the vast areas of Tibet can they air drop the Unmanned BMPs (Munthra) suitably modified to do some ground leveling work for building makeshift ALGs? probably helpful in the recovery phase of fighters or establishing a bridgehead

these landings were dusty enough they should have used some water bowsers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KUprBZsdcI

They had an AN-32 land at Nyoma, which is actually at a higher elevation than DBO.
The ALG is compacted with a cement mix, with soil, so that it is hard. In this landing, one does not see as much dust raised when the plane lands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYisZHzz1fA

I wonder what would have happened to the C-130's engines, once it reversed propellers to slow down at DBO - :eek:



There is the quick setting cement maybe it can be dropped like this with a assault landing maneuver in the night,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3G-47pXfZs

or the airdropped UGV with the dozer/tamper role would pack the dry cement canisters, again these are just airstrips used in emergencies not for day in day out operations. Not sure if BMP sized UGVs can be air dropped using the C-130Js, three such vehicles set to different tasks in a desolate area in the night might be able to complete it by the wee hours.

Image

As part of project Cheetah, if they are enabling a large coverage network to control the aerial drones the same can be extended to unmanned ground vehicles so its the UGV remote operators doing the work
Last edited by vasu raya on 19 Aug 2017 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 19 Aug 2017 20:31

What is the performance of parachutes at 4500 meters? What is the rate of descent of "normal parachutes' at very high altitude?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 19 Aug 2017 20:48

two pointers Shiv,

IAF/IA airdropped paratroopers on a large scale at high altitude in one of the recent exercises meant for Tibet

They have got controlled parachutes for 12 tons so far still working to raise that limit, not enough info on the altitude here, though precision air drop isn't the real issue in Tibet

LAPES isn't an option with any vehicle close to the max. capacity of the C-130j at about 20 tons, maybe if one is lucky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgg3iRaVnbw

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 20 Aug 2017 08:11

vasu raya wrote:two pointers Shiv,

IAF/IA airdropped paratroopers on a large scale at high altitude in one of the recent exercises meant for Tibet

They have got controlled parachutes for 12 tons so far still working to raise that limit, not enough info on the altitude here, though precision air drop isn't the real issue in Tibet

I am looking for online calculators that will give me an actual figure. Paradrops can be done to lower levels from 15,000 feet. Tibet is at 15000 feet and the only information I could find is that the speed of descent is related to air density apart from parachute surface area. That information is crucial because if standard parachutes are still descending fast at 15000 feet then paratroopers will get injured when they hit the ground and equipment will be damaged.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 20 Aug 2017 19:41

shiv wrote:What is the performance of parachutes at 4500 meters? What is the rate of descent of "normal parachutes' at very high altitude?


I don't have numbers but we do regular para drop of loads on the Glacier even above 6 kms from both helicopters and transports. Paras work fine. Drop speed and height parameters are same. Winds in valleys are stronger so one needs to cater to that.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 20 Aug 2017 20:12

deejay wrote:
shiv wrote:What is the performance of parachutes at 4500 meters? What is the rate of descent of "normal parachutes' at very high altitude?


I don't have numbers but we do regular para drop of loads on the Glacier even above 6 kms from both helicopters and transports. Paras work fine. Drop speed and height parameters are same. Winds in valleys are stronger so one needs to cater to that.

Aha. Thanks. I will set that objection aside. So drops are feasible.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 20 Aug 2017 20:41

As deejay sir observed in practice, maybe there is enough buffer built into the parachute surface area to allow for lower air densities when they qualify it. we heard that the transports cannot takeoff with more than a fraction of their payload capacity during certain times of the day from high altitude airfields, could be that ram air parachutes behave differently used with the HALO type jumps to prevent dispersion from the target area

a point regarding LAPES, vehicles with Electronic Stability Control (ESC), that are becoming real popular with passenger cars to prevent skids, rollovers on normal, wet and snowy surfaces perhaps can be applied to a wheeled BMP released at 150kmph and braking stably, some nice shocks might be needed too

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby DrRatnadip » 22 Aug 2017 08:54

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/routine ... 166905.cms

‘Routine run’ kills second IMA cadet in 2 days; 5 in hospital

DEHRADUN: In the second death of a gentleman cadet of the Indian Military Academy (IMA) within a span of two days, Nabin Kumar Chhetri, 24, from Darjeeling, died after collapsing during a training schedule which had claimed the life of another cadet, Deepak Sharma.
IMA sources confirmed on Monday that seven cadets had collapsed during a "routine 10-km run" out of which five were admitted in the Military Hospital (MH) at Dehradun where their condition was reported to be "stable." Chhetri passed away on Sunday night due to what sources at MH termed "multiple organ failure". The cadets were at a training camp known as 'Pahla Kadam' — being conducted in the general area of Badshahi Bagh in Saharanpur district of UP — which is the first camp that new cadets who have joined as 'direct entry' recruits (after graduation) are taken to on joining the academy.


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