Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 15 Jan 2018 19:35

nam wrote: Anybody dies, Pak gets the whipping.

Let's not wait for our sons to die...

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 15 Jan 2018 19:40

arshyam wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:--<snip>--
Saar, a quick q for you in the military miscellaneous thread. Quoting your post to get your attention as it's time sensitive. Will delete this l8r. TIA.

Once you are comfortable posting about your initiative (perhaps after it is complete) please let me know and I will post it on this thread as well.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jan 2018 19:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
arshyam wrote: Saar, a quick q for you in the military miscellaneous thread. Quoting your post to get your attention as it's time sensitive. Will delete this l8r. TIA.
Once you are comfortable posting about your initiative (perhaps after it is complete) please let me know and I will post it on this thread as well.

Thanks for the quick response. I have mentioned what it is in the misc. thread. It's not my initiative per se, but some of my friends'. That's why I didn't want to share too many details yet.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2018 05:20

This is an incredible speech. Info packed. Akshay please watch!
Army Chief Gen Bipin Rawat's Annual Press Conference Ahead of Army Day 2018 | Highlights

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 16 Jan 2018 15:57

Thanks Karan. Gen Bipin Rawat sir salute. What clarity of thought, what grasp of ground ops as well as strategic issues and what passion and commitment. Clarity of purpose and firm action on ground across all issues even those not in army's purview. I would not like to mess with him and I would follow him to storm the gates of hell.

Main points :

1. People may know of the govt's decision to stop subsidising tuition fees of martyrs children and the pain it has created. He says 'we are speaking to the government and if the govt doesn't do it I will'
2. Army asked govt to build bunkers for Jammu civilians and he gave orders for army to dig trenches till the govt funds come (taking their own sweet time)
3. Terrorists have come up with new bullets that pierce the old BPJ (remember Pak objective is to create max casualties and train the terrorists to keep shooting till they empty magazines and till they die). New BPJ being procured - procurement cycle is on but Northern and Eastern Army Cdrs have been asked to procure emergency numbers through their delegated powers.
4. Great concern for civilians and martyrs children.
5. Troops/offrs spending a lot of time in field and tough areas. Should be alternate tenures but troops/offrs are spending 2 in tough and one i peace. Needs to be resolved but tough (has carrying for for atleast 2 decades).
6. If troops and offrs are comfortable that their families are taken care of they will give their best. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. British ruled us primarily by this.
7. Pak Army will be hurt if they support terrorists
8. Capacities to move formations and ammunition between sectors is very important in a 2 front war. Ramana sir note the point I made in 2.5 front war thread. Chief agrees with me.
9. We will call the nuclear bluff

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 16 Jan 2018 16:01

Akshay Kapoor wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yenkmKQqh54

Watch this from 1min to 10 min and then 22 mins onwards for 'scores on thokoing the enemy'. Just watch.

Bumping this up. Guys do watch the 22 mins onwards at a bare minimum- you will enjoy it I promise ! But watch the 1st 10 mins too - see how Shivaji's legacy is being carried on.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Jan 2018 16:55

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Thanks Karan. Gen Bipin Rawat sir salute. What clarity of thought, what grasp of ground ops as well as strategic issues and what passion and commitment. Clarity of purpose and firm action on ground across all issues even those not in army's purview. I would not like to mess with him and I would follow him to storm the gates of hell.

Main points :

1. People may know of the govt's decision to stop subsidising tuition fees of martyrs children and the pain it has created. He says 'we are speaking to the government and if the govt doesn't do it I will'

Can anyone shed some light on what all perks the babooz get - other than their guaranteed yearly increments?

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 16 Jan 2018 22:21

Govt approves emergency purchase of 1.6 lakh assault rifles & carbines for frontline soldiers

NEW DELHI: Thirteen years after the Army first asked for new-generation assault rifles and close-quarter battle (CQB) carbines, there is finally some hope for the humble infantry soldiers. At least for the ones deployed on the borders with China and Pakistan.
The defence acquisitions council (DAC), chaired by Nirmala Sitharaman, cleared on Tuesday the fast-track procurement (FTP) of 72,400 assault rifles and 93,895 carbines for Rs 3,547 crore from the global market.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2018 22:25

War is coming.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 16 Jan 2018 23:23

ramana wrote:War is coming.

Sir million dollar question is when, I was hoping, these vermins will be dealt after 2022 ish to ensure a third term after fully preparing, but seems like this govt is on a crash course.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 17 Jan 2018 00:28

An economy spending 1.6% on defense is not going to war anytime soon. Some small actions may be possible, but nothing big. No aar paar.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 17 Jan 2018 00:41

ramana wrote:War is coming.

who is starting?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 17 Jan 2018 09:48

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yenkmKQqh54

Watch this from 1min to 10 min and then 22 mins onwards for 'scores on thokoing the enemy'. Just watch.
Bumping this up. Guys do watch the 22 mins onwards at a bare minimum- you will enjoy it I promise ! But watch the 1st 10 mins too - see how Shivaji's legacy is being carried on.

Guys JMT, Have watches most of Patriot series. What struck me is when Maj Arya has lunch with soldiers, we can see the food is very simple, such as rice, dal, roti etc. I'd have thought soldiers would be having lot more richer food including meat, to help them in their physical exertion throughout the day similar to a diet of an athlete.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jan 2018 10:27

Karthik S wrote: Guys JMT, Have watches most of Patriot series. What struck me is when Maj Arya has lunch with soldiers, we can see the food is very simple, such as rice, dal, roti etc. I'd have thought soldiers would be having lot more richer food including meat, to help them in their physical exertion throughout the day similar to a diet of an athlete.

OK. I don't mean to be insulting but this is another example of American thought process infiltrating into the lay public after which it will gradually infect professionals.

The amount of protein eaten in America is not essential for fit humans. Beefy soldiers are inflexible, slower and make large heavy targets, heavy to carry away when dead or wounded, and need a lot of rations to survive. One of the reasons why the Vietnamese outlasted the Americans was this. You find thin, wiry vegetarian soldiers being able to run 20 km with a 25 kg load. Only constant exposure to modern American dietetics makes people think this is not possible.

If you look at images on US/European soldiers in WW1 and WW2 - you find that they were slim and fit. Back then - even in Europe and the US no one had meat every day or every meal. Now people think "protein" is needed all the time to be fit. Actually the amount of protein energy and fat in a bar of chikki ("peanut brittle with unrefined sugar aka jaggery") is very good, very light and very compact and does not rot for weeks and can be eaten unheated and gives instant energy.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Jan 2018 11:11

Not to mention the fact that the langar dal / roti is gob smackingly good!!!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Jan 2018 11:16

ramana wrote:War is coming.

RBI bought lot of Hard currency in last few weeks . Something serious is cooking .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jan 2018 11:46

ks_sachin wrote:Not to mention the fact that the langar dal / roti is gob smackingly good!!!

My post may end up being a digression - but modern visions of dietetics - and protein intake have their uses for athletes. Bulging muscles make men physically strong for tremendous feats of strength - but they are inflexible and slow and their endurance is lower - which is not something one would guess from the movies. Soldiering of course requires physical strength, but flexibility and endurance are equally critical. The flexibility is for negotiation under obstacles and through narrow openings. Climbing and long hikes require endurance. Large muscles are like high maintenance wives they need to be maintained by high intake.

The world in general has forgotten how little food is required for health - and there is saying that a person who eats once a day is a yogi, twice a day is a bhogi and thrice a day is a "rogi" (unhealthy person). In the sixties medical science believed that humans could be made taller, stronger and fitter forever using magic words like protein, energy, fat and vitamin. But 40 years later doctors don't have a clue how to make the world lose weight.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 12:16

Karthik S wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Bumping this up. Guys do watch the 22 mins onwards at a bare minimum- you will enjoy it I promise ! But watch the 1st 10 mins too - see how Shivaji's legacy is being carried on.
Guys JMT, Have watches most of Patriot series. What struck me is when Maj Arya has lunch with soldiers, we can see the food is very simple, such as rice, dal, roti etc. I'd have thought soldiers would be having lot more richer food including meat, to help them in their physical exertion throughout the day similar to a diet of an athlete.

They get meat 3-4 meals a week. Its quite enough. In field areas carrying meat increases logistics plus we need to keep in mind our weather also. Too much meat in hot weather is not good. Shivji makes some points as well - our troops are wiry and flexible and can carry a much higher proportion of their bodywieght for much longer distances than the americans. As an example, look at videos of passing out parades from IMA - extremely wiry with not an inch of fat and to the untrained mind no muscle. But these guys can do 100 push ups in a jiffy, can climb ropes with full equipment and do everything they need to.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 12:20

Okay so no one liked how 10-12 soldiers/JCOs were lined up and each told their story of how many militants they had 'thokoed' ? I loved it. Boring guys all of you !

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 12:25

Shivji - some insightful points. One more from me - as an example our troops/offrs chose to carry ammunition instead of food during Kargil assault - shows endurance and flexibility and commitment. Western armies definitey dont have this.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jan 2018 13:40

Akshay Kapoor wrote: Boring guys all of you !

How can you say that?

We need people to tell these stories. These men are disciplined and self effacing. They are professionals in their work - but their stories need to be told by professionals. Sometimes bollywood - much hated and much cursed on BRF has done a tremendous job of telling these stories. A man who neither boasts of his valour nor speaks of his pain is a hero but the way to open emotional floodgates of people who hear the tale - one needs a good storyteller. By nature these men will never add masala in their narrative - that masala needs to be added. The leeches, the bee stings, the swollen ankle, the sweat, the thirst, the smell of blood; blinded and deafened by a nearby explosion, and the immense courage of actually being in a firefight, let alone actually eliminating the adversary.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 14:21

Sirji all I meant was that I was looking forward to hear whoops of delight on the score each of them gave. / 70 here , 10 there and no casualties to us. I’m sure people enjoyed it. I thoroughly enjoyed it and Maj Arya’s comments.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2018 14:25

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Okay so no one liked how 10-12 soldiers/JCOs were lined up and each told their story of how many militants they had 'thokoed' ? I loved it. Boring guys all of you !

Amazing stuff. Did you see the expression on Major Aryas face - seven or seventy?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 14:43

Yes. His comments and expression were great. Good guy. I like him.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 14:47

But that does beg the question - we keep killing these guys and have done for 2 decades and Pak fauj keeps dipping into their vast population and keeps sending them. We have to change strategy and as one part of that we need to impose cost to their officer cadre. Gen Rawat mentions this.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2018 14:58

To be honest 128 casualties on TSP is not enough. Make it 10x the number and then we can say the strategy does not work.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 15:09

Oh it will certainly work if we impose 1280 casualties. But how.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 17 Jan 2018 15:31

They feel loss of land more than loss of mortals

If that 1280 casualties can be accompanied by 1280 sq km of land acquired westwards, then it will create a sense of loss for the Pakjihadis.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2018 16:24

It means a war like situation and a political and national will to absorb losses. The border cities/villages have to be evacuated. We have to be willing to withstand attacks like Pathankot and more as a desperate ISI resorts to mass attacks in retaliation. We have to carry on with business as usual, even as editorials scream of nuclear war, unkil sam puts FDI pressure and so forth and threats of sanctions emerge. We have to also be very stern with internal quislings, chalta hain wont work as ISI will pump money to destabilize us. Ultimately, it comes down to the Indian people. Until & unless Modi led GOI is harsh on the wannabe activists & quislings, such harsh action will not happen. Can it though, yes. I don't see why we cannot sustain such a harsh response. We have over $400 Bn in forex & companies like Bharat Forge which have artificially (for political reasons) been kept away from ammo manufacture (they make shells but can't fill them). Now, this GOI has removed that fake bottleneck partially & private firms are entering into ammo manufacture. With items like ATAGS & a steady stream of 155mm - we don't even need SF raids or the like to constantly punish TSP.
Yes, the economy will take a hit but if we grow it fast enough before implementing such measures (not easy, but still). TSP may well be forced to its knees. Ninety percent of our issues with TSP are internal and I say this with all seriousness. Having been on BR for ever, we have internalized this 3.5 friend BS for far too long. We can and should be willing to punch at our weight and be absolutely harsh in terms of national security. World couldn't and won't do diddly squat to PRC over its internal security crackdown and slapped anemic sanctions on Russia for pretty much invading Ukraine. They won't do crap to us if we hammer the crap out of TSP on the LOC.

Taking land = all out war. This is not that. This is non stop hammering, without crossing any so called redline or pissing on the western definition of a westphalian state or whatever.

We want to burn TSP in a blaze of its own making & enforce a complete breakdown of its infrastructure in a 40-50 km zone. Lets see how long they can take that.

Use SF, UAVs etc to spot infra. Then hammer them to bits.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2018 16:41

Ultimately it is our internal weakness viz the decayed internal security infra in the UPA years, which prevents such a strategy from being implemented overnight. But times are a changing..

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 16:43

These tactics/strategy has to go hand in hand with infantry assaults and SF raids across LC to realign LC more advantageously. Another crucial element is in Doval sir's old (and new) arena -intelligence actions. Balochistan must become free.

''Ninety percent of our issues with TSP are internal and I say this with all seriousness. Having been on BR for ever, we have internalized this 3.5 friend BS for far too long. We can and should be willing to punch at our weight and be absolutely harsh in terms of national security. World couldn't and won't do diddly squat to PRC over its internal security crackdown and slapped anemic sanctions on Russia for pretty much invading Ukraine. They won't do crap to us if we hammer the crap out of TSP on the LOC.''

Couldn't agree more.

It makes economic sense to do this as well. As I have been saying for years they have tied down huge number of our forces in the valley and this has an enormous cost. if we can get rid of this problem, then without a massive increase in defense budget (currently we need atleast doubling) we can pivot to China and hold them off. We also have enormous number of Central Police Forces and this creates huge problems in many ways. Resolving the TSP issue can help us pare this down as well.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 16:45

Karan, you are following the 2.5 war thread right ? Your insights will be very valuable there as well.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 16:45

Karan M wrote:Ultimately it is our internal weakness viz the decayed internal security infra in the UPA years, which prevents such a strategy from being implemented overnight. But times are a changing..

+108. And the decayed will or rather even active sabotage to int agencies, tying the army's hands, and openly collaborating with the enemy.

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Jan 2018 16:55

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Oh it will certainly work if we impose 1280 casualties. But how.

A 155MM created no-mans land 5-10 KM from LOC on Pak side. There is no need to capture any land.

Reserving 500K of 155MM rounds as gifts to Pakland would go a long way.

Would probably cost us 1 billion a year. Quote cheap if you ask me. Ofcourse we move our LOC population into safer place, before send across the parcels.

Every time Pak infiltrate, we fire off 2000 rounds. Allows us 250 incidents/year!

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 17:05

Nam read the tactics thread. Arty indirect fire can be quite ineffective against well entrenched defenses with overhead protection. LC terrain provides natural protection and then if you use that to dig in defences they can be very safe. In the open 100% casualties will be achived, in trenches without overhead protection 30% and with overhead protection just 10%.

But it would keep heads down for sure. It will invite counter fire though.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2018 17:36

Yes - arty fire is one of the weapons at our disposal. But the biggest issue is mindset. The idiots in Delhi who think TSP is "just like us" and a wayward little brother, who is ok in killing the "occasional" soldier and a few civilians (they deserved it after all, they riot too bla bla) are the biggest threats along with the vote bank pandering politicians who try to equate TSP to a domestic minority & pretend pandering to one, is pandering to the other. These hypocritical, cowardly, idiotic and defeatist mindsets are what are the biggest things holding us back. Until and unless we get a national security establishment that is absolutely and totally dedicated to beating and winning against the TSP across the board - economically & militarily and willing to use every trick in the book, the way Mossad looks at Iran's nuclear development & the way it regarded Egypt before the Camp David accords, we are playing with both hands behind our back & even worse, with our eyes blindfolded.

Our national security czars of yesteryears sup with ISI counterparts at book launches, our erstwhile HM sings paeans to TSP's beliefs regarding J&K, this same imbecile for the sake of personal glory announced anti Maoist ops in full PR glare and sent undertrained CRPF folks to their death, created a bogey of Hindu terror for narrow political gains. Another erstwhile intel czar was busy running down Indian capabilities at the time of Pathankot and before.
So this is the kind of national security establishment we had, is it any wonder they would weed out any hardline services or civil establishment person?

So, until and unless the current GOI gets out of its 24/7 election "sabka saath sabka vikaas" gyan and also, on the side, starts exerting its will on national security, our historical weaknesses will continue.

Giving TSP 128 casualties on the border is a huge step up. But it won't be enough if domestic parochial politicians work hand in glove with TSP interests to bring down the Govt, because the current Govt will not take any harsh action against fellow politicians. All is ok & beer and whisky in some shindig in the evening & handshakes in TV debates. Until that mindset changes, overall situation will not change.

All have to get it. This is not the time to play oh so civilized and so gentlemanly. The current dispensation will be hounded if they are out of power and so will anyone who thinks TSP is a threat or thinks India should be a strong nation state. We were headed there anyhow.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 17 Jan 2018 17:56

I'd love to add Smerch and Pinaka II in addition to 155mm, considering their additional 30 km range over guns. What was the figure one salvo from Smerch can cover 67 hectares of land.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jan 2018 18:05

Thats all fine but we must have enough of Pinaka, 155mm guns, Anti material rifles, Motors, UAV's, Carl Gustaf's and ATGM to observe Paki positions and to go down the escalation Path. This is where the UPA has completely sabotaged some options which will take 5-10 years to build.
.
Our Nuke detterent plus good capabalities in Army, Airforce and Navy combined with Well armed Pathans and Paki Iranian disgareements will be good, we must weaken the Paki economy and expand on its internal fractures.

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Jan 2018 18:35

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Nam read the tactics thread. Arty indirect fire can be quite ineffective against well entrenched defenses with overhead protection. LC terrain provides natural protection and then if you use that to dig in defences they can be very safe. In the open 100% casualties will be achived, in trenches without overhead protection 30% and with overhead protection just 10%.

But it would keep heads down for sure. It will invite counter fire though.

That is a given. If the bunker is strong enough it can save you from an airstrike as well.

We are not going to fire randomly or on target that is hard to destroy. It should be fire for effect. Recon a Paki convoy and bring down artillery/rocket fire. SF, UAV hunt target and we bomb anything that moves in the "no-mans land".

If PA is going to sit inside a bunker all day long, well that is partially what we want.

They will counter fire, hence I mentioned we need to move our border population to a safe area permanently. Our side is less populated compared to the Paki side of LoC.

We sort of did with the Neelum valley. We blocked a road with artillery fire for 12 years! Nothing moved!

The ghost valley!

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 60932.html

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 18:43

nam wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Nam read the tactics thread. Arty indirect fire can be quite ineffective against well entrenched defenses with overhead protection. LC terrain provides natural protection and then if you use that to dig in defences they can be very safe. In the open 100% casualties will be achived, in trenches without overhead protection 30% and with overhead protection just 10%.

But it would keep heads down for sure. It will invite counter fire though.
That is a given. If the bunker is strong enough it can save you from an airstrike as well.

We are not going to fire randomly or on target that is hard to destroy. It should be fire for effect. Recon a Paki convoy and bring down artillery/rocket fire. SF, UAV hunt target and we bomb anything that moves in the "no-mans land".

If PA is going to sit inside a bunker all day long, well that is partially what we want.

They will counter fire, hence I mentioned we need to move our border population to a safe area permanently. Our side is less populated compared to the Paki side of LoC.

We sort of did with the Neelum valley. We blocked a road with artillery fire for 12 years! Nothing moved!

The ghost valley!

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 60932.html

No quibble with that. I was primarily thinking of ways to inflict casualties.