Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Feb 2018 17:41

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Pleasure and thanks for explaning the personal side of the bond. Mrs Tarapore took care of all the ladies as Poona Horse left for the war.

Its important to understand what Nishan is - the sum total of all the blood that has been spilt (and the lives of families and loved ones destroyed) for the nishan or the standards. These are soaked in the blood of braves. When a young man sees that and understands it he realises he is now linked to it for ever and it is his responsibility to protect it with his blood (and the tears of his family) if need be. Thats what turns an irresponsible, wild boy into a man.

One of my attempts in the future is going to be to find the stories about our nishans from our ancient and medieval days and trace regt histories to that. It will be painful but its important.

One famous Dogri was General Zoravar Singh.
while having no connection to the Dogra regt his portrait was prominent in the mess.

that said I now have a complete history of the army of the East India company and their evolution into the. I have set me self the task of documenting the lineage of every infantry / armr / arty bn or regt.

Since I have also got an idea of their dress I want to study if their current regimental colours have a l=ink back to the East India Company days.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Feb 2018 17:45

Sir,

here is something else that you will find interesting.

http://hillpost.in/2007/07/the-story-of ... ar-2/2555/

Tell you a story when you have read.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Feb 2018 17:56

Another one for you;

https://www.facebook.com/FaujiKiddoS/po ... 3225219516

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 02 Feb 2018 18:50

Oh man, looks like a happy weekend ahead for me.. so much reading to be done

One request Gentlemen, can you please put such posts in the 'Indian Army History Thread'

(i never miss any of the fascinating posts in that thread)

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 03 Feb 2018 06:53

https://youtu.be/qFvdK3Yigs

This belongs in a discussion of military traditions. A very informative and engaging look at how individuals and units are molded in the Indian armed forces.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 03 Feb 2018 15:41

I am surprised that no one has picked up on the news that JKP has filed FIRs with names against soldiers and one officer for 10 Garhwal under pressure from Mehbooba Mufti. They were on the way in a convoy, one section of convoy lost the way and entered a village where they were attacked and had to fire in self defence as a last resort. I think 3 civilans died and Mehbooba Mufti is calling the army 'black sheep'. What were they supposed to do - surrender their arms and get killed so MM could win the next election ?

srin · Post by **srin** » 04 Feb 2018 10:40

For weekend binge-watching on Indian Army (posted other videos on CAPF thread):

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Feb 2018 00:35

3 jawans martyred in napaki shelling
What stops us from bringing out heavy artillery?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Feb 2018 06:35

ArjunPandit wrote:3 jawans martyred in napaki shelling
What stops us from bringing out heavy artillery?

IA is going to light up the border.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2018 08:03

Akshay Kapoor wrote:I am surprised that no one has picked up on the news that JKP has filed FIRs with names against soldiers and one officer for 10 Garhwal under pressure from Mehbooba Mufti. They were on the way in a convoy, one section of convoy lost the way and entered a village where they were attacked and had to fire in self defence as a last resort. I think 3 civilans died and Mehbooba Mufti is calling the army 'black sheep'. What were they supposed to do - surrender their arms and get killed so MM could win the next election ?

No one missed that IMO.

Let me state my view on this. Obviously the army did the right thing. But Mehbooba Mufti (and BJP) are playing a (good) political game here. Technically in civilian life if someone gets hurt the action that needs to be taken is to report it to the police and file a FIR. From the viewpoint of the people who threw stones and representatives of those who got killed the dead people were "shot by someone in Army uniform". They are allowed to tell lies in the FIR and claim that they were simply singing "Kumbaya my love" in their village when army came and shot them all down. An obvious lie but this is the way people file FIRs - especially criminal mofo. Telling the truth is for the army and dharmic people.

Filing the FIR sets off a legal process. In the meantime - the Army too can respond to the FIR and state its side of the story. The entire episode will go through the convoluted legal process. Remember that once an issue like this becomes "sub-judice" the presstitute press and opposition parties cannot go overboard in their accusations. An event has occurred. Two parties are involved. One party has done the right thing - that is instead of starting riots they have reported it to the police. This does not mean that the Army did not do the right thing. It only means that the "wheels of justuce will be st in motion" and political advantage becomes more difficult.

Before I finish let me speculate on what might have happened (and what used to happen) when this sort of "recourse to legal action" is/was not taken.

Army passes through village. Soldiers stoned - many hurt - mob gets threatening - army sorts them out when restraint is no longer possible leaving a few pig carcasses. The matter then becomes a political issue. The separatists say "We do not trust the army or the police". We will instaed have a bandh and resort to violence. Whoever handles that violence will be provoked - leading to firing and more deaths - increasing anger.

So the exact correct thing to do is to follow the law of the land.

1. Army does what it has to do
2. Civilians - if aggrieved must not riot or go apeshit. They need top follow a legal process and file an FIR and let the law take its course.

I must add the perspective of a doctor - who is also a professional doing his duty. This is about India - not any other country

In the early 1990s and before that - every now and again when a patient died the patients relatives would agitate, blame the doctor and and riot, and also involve the police. Many a time the poor helpless doctor who had done nothing more than his duty was handcuffed and taken into custody by the police. This has happened to people I know. When this got out of hand doctors had to agitate and have the law changed. Now in case of a death - the police can be informed (as often happens, and happened to me personally even in the absence of death). But the police are not empowered to arrest the doctor. They have to impound the medical case records that are then forwarded to the medical council for initial investigation

So filing an FIR is no big deal - and thankfully for doctors the possibility of arrest when some drunk goonda dies because he inhaled his vomit no longer happens. In the case of the army -the police cannot arrest the army. The case will be dealt with by whatever mechanisms exist

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2018 08:04

Do not dismiss the possibility that the "FIR filing" took the wind out of a "new intifada" and Pakis are firing in frustration

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Feb 2018 12:27

twitter

Maj Surendra Poonia Verified account @MajorPoonia

22h22 hours ago

Few #StonePelters in J&K hit 2 Army sniffer dogs Sultan & Mahboob.

Since the dogs don't wait for orders from the Govt, THEY did what they thought was RIGHT !
I salute these Dogs

@MehboobaMufti Madam CM,
I hope no FIR will be lodged against Sultan & Mahboob

@adgpi @crpfindia

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 05 Feb 2018 14:45

^ She can't even call in the SPCA. After all the pigs were counter-attacked in self-defence by the canines

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Feb 2018 16:35

shiv wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:I am surprised that no one has picked up on the news that JKP has filed FIRs with names against soldiers and one officer for 10 Garhwal under pressure from Mehbooba Mufti. They were on the way in a convoy, one section of convoy lost the way and entered a village where they were attacked and had to fire in self defence as a last resort. I think 3 civilans died and Mehbooba Mufti is calling the army 'black sheep'. What were they supposed to do - surrender their arms and get killed so MM could win the next election ?
No one missed that IMO.

Let me state my view on this. Obviously the army did the right thing. But Mehbooba Mufti (and BJP) are playing a (good) political game here. Technically in civilian life if someone gets hurt the action that needs to be taken is to report it to the police and file a FIR. From the viewpoint of the people who threw stones and representatives of those who got killed the dead people were "shot by someone in Army uniform". They are allowed to tell lies in the FIR and claim that they were simply singing "Kumbaya my love" in their village when army came and shot them all down. An obvious lie but this is the way people file FIRs - especially criminal mofo. Telling the truth is for the army and dharmic people.

Filing the FIR sets off a legal process. In the meantime - the Army too can respond to the FIR and state its side of the story. The entire episode will go through the convoluted legal process. Remember that once an issue like this becomes "sub-judice" the presstitute press and opposition parties cannot go overboard in their accusations. An event has occurred. Two parties are involved. One party has done the right thing - that is instead of starting riots they have reported it to the police. This does not mean that the Army did not do the right thing. It only means that the "wheels of justuce will be st in motion" and political advantage becomes more difficult.

Before I finish let me speculate on what might have happened (and what used to happen) when this sort of "recourse to legal action" is/was not taken.

Army passes through village. Soldiers stoned - many hurt - mob gets threatening - army sorts them out when restraint is no longer possible leaving a few pig carcasses. The matter then becomes a political issue. The separatists say "We do not trust the army or the police". We will instaed have a bandh and resort to violence. Whoever handles that violence will be provoked - leading to firing and more deaths - increasing anger.

So the exact correct thing to do is to follow the law of the land.

1. Army does what it has to do
2. Civilians - if aggrieved must not riot or go apeshit. They need top follow a legal process and file an FIR and let the law take its course.

I must add the perspective of a doctor - who is also a professional doing his duty. This is about India - not any other country

In the early 1990s and before that - every now and again when a patient died the patients relatives would agitate, blame the doctor and and riot, and also involve the police. Many a time the poor helpless doctor who had done nothing more than his duty was handcuffed and taken into custody by the police. This has happened to people I know. When this got out of hand doctors had to agitate and have the law changed. Now in case of a death - the police can be informed (as often happens, and happened to me personally even in the absence of death). But the police are not empowered to arrest the doctor. They have to impound the medical case records that are then forwarded to the medical council for initial investigation

So filing an FIR is no big deal - and thankfully for doctors the possibility of arrest when some drunk goonda dies because he inhaled his vomit no longer happens. In the case of the army -the police cannot arrest the army. The case will be dealt with by whatever mechanisms exist

When the force which is supposed to be working with you stabs you in the back for doing your work it seriously hurts confidence . You say police cannot arrest army (because of Army act and AFSPA) but attempts are often made to do so (under army act polcie can arrest for murder which is why they always file FIR for murder) - it has happened to my men. Careers are indeed destroyed by this. Troops spends months and years under extreme stress (added to the stress of the job). You say case will be dealt by mechanisms that exist - that mechanism is the internal army enquiry and if necessary (not in this case) courts martail system and AFSPA under which army has immunity but I think there was a 2016 Supreme Court judgement that diluted this. So if judges and terrorists subvert the system how will the 'mechanisms' work.

This is actually quite a serious development. Also, you forget that soldiers and the officer have been identified in FIR by name.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Feb 2018 16:41

shiv wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:I am surprised that no one has picked up on the news that JKP has filed FIRs with names against soldiers and one officer for 10 Garhwal under pressure from Mehbooba Mufti. They were on the way in a convoy, one section of convoy lost the way and entered a village where they were attacked and had to fire in self defence as a last resort. I think 3 civilans died and Mehbooba Mufti is calling the army 'black sheep'. What were they supposed to do - surrender their arms and get killed so MM could win the next election ?
No one missed that IMO.

Army passes through village. Soldiers stoned - many hurt - mob gets threatening - army sorts them out when restraint is no longer possible leaving a few pig carcasses. The matter then becomes a political issue. The separatists say "We do not trust the army or the police". We will instaed have a bandh and resort to violence. Whoever handles that violence will be provoked - leading to firing and more deaths - increasing anger.

my comment - stoning was not the only thing that happened, the villagers closed in , contacted and attempted to steal weapons and kill the troops.

So the exact correct thing to do is to follow the law of the land.

my comment - law of the land is often subverted as I have alluded to in the previous post. In this case law of the land is AFSPA. Under that army has immunity then why file FIR ?

1. Army does what it has to do
2. Civilians - if aggrieved must not riot or go apeshit. They need top follow a legal process and file an FIR and let the law take its course.

my comment - 'civilians' did not file FIR. The police did. Here in lies the problem

my comments in italic bold

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Feb 2018 18:22

ArjunPandit wrote:3 jawans martyred in napaki shelling
What stops us from bringing out heavy artillery?

I think a big move of arty (including SATA batteries) from the arty divs and the strike corps reserves to LC is necessary. Might as well give them field firing practice.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2018 19:41

OK I did not know that the police filed an FIR. I am uncertain about the status of this. But I think police can file an FIR. It is a "dhoka" of a security force against the army, but I am trying to look at the political motivations in play here. Mehbooba Mufti has spoken with both sides of her tongue - here in which the FIR remains while she has said that army is most disciplined and AFSPA cannot be revoked.

The action that you say the police have done in the past (arrest for murder) is exactly what used to happen to doctors in the past. The dilution of the AFSPA by the Supreme court has certainly introduced a difficult dynamic here. If the law is to be followed then every party involved in an incident of loss of life under AFSPA will have to bring out their side of the story. Here I have a small mental block because normally (as far as my knowledge goes) the army does not automatically come under civilian courts. I think an army authority first need to accept the validity of a claim against army personnel before "handing over" an army personnel to civil court authority.

Please correct me if I am wrong - but for many decades now I have seen the army being criticized by the usual Indian culprits who were willing to see Indians and the Indian army as guilty and Kashmiri separatists as innocent. The joke meme "800,0000,0000,0,0000000,00 deaths caused by army in Kashmir" became a standard reference on BRF to identify Indian kandle kissers and their Paki counterparts. While the use of that figure has diminished - it has not gone away.

Let me point out a curious game that has been played by Pakistan. That game is to drive a wedge between Indian civilians and the Indian army by saying that they (Pakis) have also suffered from their "khakis" and that India too has the samesame problem and that it is the army that is the problem. Now on BRF we have recognized for decades that this game is played by the Paki army - by getting civilian Pakis to act as if the armies are responsible for all troubles and if somehow the armies were out of the way then all problems between India and Ba$tardistan would be solved. Indians have fallen for this and agitation against the AFSPA falls under this category. But while the army enjoyed some freedom of action under the AFSPA the criticism that they had a free hand became a great political game. When I say political game I must point out that politics in Kashmir - esp National conference is like Congress - it is about retaining power and wealth at the expense of the nation. So what has happened for decades is that when a party is in power they absolutely have to allow AFSPA but the opposition always target the in-power party saying that they are against Kashmiris and support "army excesses". No one is interested in talking about army restraint, stress, injuries deaths etc. Political parties consciously blame the army along with the ruling state government and consciously alienate people to keep Kashmir in turmoil, aided by Pakis so that they can win the next election and then support AFSPA for 5 more years.

This vicious circle has to be broken. As I see it - one way to break it is to remove the idea (introduced by Pakis and Paki pasands of India) that the army is being allowed to do whatever it likes under AFSPA - without actually repealing the AFSPA. The idea is (as I read it) to create the image that there is a higher authority that would be able to look at army action and that the idea that the army is being "allowed a free run" is wrong. This is not easy. The army has to do tough things in dangerous situations and the best outcome is that the "higher authority" that looks into these actions are as sympathetic as possible to the army while showing that they are looking into complaints by the terrorist sympathizers.

I am sorry this post is getting too long. But there are many ways of belling this cat. India owns Kashmir but to break Pakistani influence within the framework of our laws we cannot have military rule under the guise of president's rule in Kashmir. And changing the constitution to repeal article 370 etc remain options even now - but I believe that every one of these things gives encouragement to Pakis support jihad and keep getting funds from sponsors. Those earlier mentioned options all remain but all that I see now is an intent to bring stability to J&K without alienating the few neutrals that there are. The FIRs against the army could possibly be seen in this light.

Just my thoughts.

Meanwhile the news says that someone has filed an FIR today also for some other incident involving the army.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 05 Feb 2018 19:58

This FIR is worrying and is a bad precedent. Technically any death from armed action can be classified as 'murder' so in the very extreme this can lead to a situation where every action by Indian security forces can be called a murder. All that is needed is a subverted police force and judiciary.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2018 20:18

Vidur wrote:This FIR is worrying and is a bad precedent. Technically any death from armed action can be classified as 'murder' so in the very extreme this can lead to a situation where every action by Indian security forces can be called a murder. All that is needed is a subverted police force and judiciary.

But wasn't this something that was "waiting to happen"? Especially after the Supreme Court diluted the terms of AFSPA? I agree on the point of "compromised judiciary" but it also means that we must ensure that the best legal brains are on the side of the army. And use all possible legal tactics to win.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 05 Feb 2018 20:30

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Calvin your math is also wrong. The ratio of 1:20 is number of secy level posts of IAS officers vs serving IAS officers ! How do other cadres come in ? You can do the same calculation for IPS, IFS etc, allied services etc separately.

I really wish Vidur would comment

You had asked me to comment so a a few short comments :

1. As I already said I do not disagree with you on many of the points you raised so I will not elaborate on those

2.You brought up the issue of 'aukaad'. Let me briefly explore this by the concept of power and how it is exercised in day to day life and what implications it has.

There are two types of states - one that is run by rule of law where the government and justice machinery delivers for all. Another is based on power transactions - where the machinery does not work and therefore power transactions determine outcomes from the state machinery. While this is naturally a continuum India clearly is on the power transactions end. In such a state the currency is not money it is power. Money can be easily generated from power and power independently can give most of the things that money gives. So if you want something , for example, medical attention either you must have money or you must have power (which itself often brings money) which you exchange for medical help. Take the case of an IPS officer. Regardless of whether he is honest or not, doing well or not, there is no circumstance when he will not get medical help or any other important service - either for money or for making friends with a powerful person. In that sense an IPS officer or a police inspector even is the most powerful person (after politicians and judiciary) in our society. He is more powerful even than an IAS and other services. There is no one who will have the courage to insult him. The transaction here is - I will protect you and you take care of my needs. It is another matter that a lot of the time this becomes more of an extortion transaction. But the principle is the same.

So power in India clearly vests with the politicians, judiciary and the civil service. This has nothing to do with honesty. Even the most honest IAS/IPS officer has this power by sheer virtue of the power of the service. This does lead to big egos. It is also taught in the various civil services academies that your are the most powerful people in the country. The armed forces clearly do not have this currency of power. Here is a recent news item. http://zeenews.india.com/india/watch-ar ... 78778.html. I do not know the veracity of this nor the circumstances but this incident does not surprise me because the currency is power (or money) and only people who have it have any respect in our country. Now this would never ever happen to a bureaucrat. The IPS would have the miscreants picked up and beaten up, the IAS would cancel his license and the IRS would launch an Income Tax raid.

The armed forces have no currency.

In essence that is the problem. It manifests in day to day life of making ends meet, getting services from the state, protecting your family (a point you made eloquently). But it also manifests in the higher defecse management and immediate and long term national security issues. We can explore these later.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Feb 2018 20:41

Cross posting from Armoured thread

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Feb 2018 21:13

Shiv sir, don’t forget Op Sadhbhavna. The army does more work for Kashmiris than the civil administration.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Feb 2018 21:19

Pulwana army camp attacked .50 RR camp.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Feb 2018 22:16

the swat suicide attack has burnt paki army tail...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2018 22:34

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Shiv sir, don’t forget Op Sadhbhavna. The army does more work for Kashmiris than the civil administration.

This is obvious to anyone who follows handles like AGDPI on Twitter.

There is, in my view a two pronged game going on and the enemies of the state (Indian state) are onto that game and seek to disrupt. Over wide swathes the army is helping with education, opportunities, sport etc and establishing its credentials with local populations. But in some core "militancy affected areas" mostly bordering Pakistan the people live in a mixed crowd alongside Paki agents. The game here is to disrupt the army and undo any good work they may be doing, provoke them to kill one of their cadre and create martyrs. This has been done reasonably successfully for decades. This is an easily played game to gain attention and sympathy because a local lad is often at the forefront - and he takes a bullet and his family - who may until them have wished for him to lead a "normal life" and get a job suddenly have a dead son/brother and in their anguish are ready to blame the army even if they were previously neutral. I think this has been a real problem for progress and the Pakis have used it to the hilt. A lot of political moves have been to try and assuage/win over the fence-sitters. The army gets bad press either way, but it obviously rankles more when rioters are let off and army personnel are blamed. This requires great leadership in assuaging local sentiment while still keeping the army unaffected as far as possible by the morale issues that would accompany such a situation.

There is a strange paradox here that the nation and the army must cope with. The army is largely loved - but it helps the Pakis and kandle kissers to be bitterly critical of the army and it cheers them if a morale depleting issue can be created. So they use the media and victimhood to the hilt. While it would be totally satisfying for me see the whole bunch of motherfucrs shredded to bits with a heavy machine gun, we have to be satisfied with less than that. If I let my emotions loose on this then we don't get a debate.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 05 Feb 2018 22:38

Philip wrote:Pulwana army camp attacked .50 RR camp.

So the shelling was to provide cover for the pigs who did this..

Retaliation should be immediate and painful for the pigs..

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 05 Feb 2018 22:39

At first I thought that the concerns about the FIR were overblown. I thought the FIR is simply an incident report, 'something happened, XYZ got killed, ABC fired the weapon, this was reported to us'. This would not necessarily mean the incident can be prosecuted.. For a prosecution to go forward, the Army must first agree to it, and they will never do that was my thought.

FIR registration is as per the recent SC order..
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 407897.cms

NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court has upheld its direction for mandatory registration of FIR against armed forces personnel, even in disturbed areas under Armed Forces Special Power Act (AFSPA), for every encounter death despite the Centre pleading that this order could jeopardise efforts to maintain peace and security.
In a chamber hearing without the presence of law officers for the Centre, a bench of Chief Justice J S Khehar and Justices Dipak Misra, J Chelameswar, Madan B Lokur an U U Lalit dismissed the Union government's curative petition against a judgment delivered last year. "We find no merit in the curative petition," it said before rejecting the plea.

The govt. take on this is as below:-

By the July 8, 2016 order, the SC had negated the protection against prosecution available to armed forces under AFSPA. The Centre had said, "If the position maintained by the impugned order continues, it may one day be well-nigh impossible to maintain peace and security. "The Indian Army has to, in given circumstances, take quick decisions which cannot be dissected later on like an ordinary murder appeal. In other words, the scope of judicial review against active military operations cannot be on the same parameters as in other situations. Therefore, action taken by Army during operations cannot be put to judicial scrutiny."

Its very curious to see familiar judicial names in this judgement.

Does the FIR automatically mean that a prosecution follows? or AFSPA protection still applies?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2018 22:58

sudeepj wrote: Does the FIR automatically mean that a prosecution follows? or AFSPA protection still applies?

https://www.jaagore.com/know-your-polic ... Registered

Once an FIR has been filed the police are legally bound to start investigating the case.

The process of investigation includes, but is not limited to, collecting evidence, questioning witnesses, inspecting the crime scene, forensic testing, recording statements and so on. If the criminals are found, the police will make arrests.

Once the investigation has been concluded the police will record all their findings in a ‘Challan’ or charge sheet. If it is deemed that there is enough proof on the charge sheet the case goes to court.

On the flipside, after their investigations if the police conclude that there is not enough evidence or proof that a crime has been committed they can close the case after justifying their reasons in court. If the police decide to close the case, they are bound to inform the person who filed the FIR of their decision.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Feb 2018 23:03

sudeepj wrote:At first I thought that the concerns about the FIR were overblown. I thought the FIR is simply an incident report, 'something happened, XYZ got killed, ABC fired the weapon, this was reported to us'. This would not necessarily mean the incident can be prosecuted.. For a prosecution to go forward, the Army must first agree to it, and they will never do that was my thought.

FIR registration is as per the recent SC order..
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 407897.cms
NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court has upheld its direction for mandatory registration of FIR against armed forces personnel, even in disturbed areas under Armed Forces Special Power Act (AFSPA), for every encounter death despite the Centre pleading that this order could jeopardise efforts to maintain peace and security.
In a chamber hearing without the presence of law officers for the Centre, a bench of Chief Justice J S Khehar and Justices Dipak Misra, J Chelameswar, Madan B Lokur an U U Lalit dismissed the Union government's curative petition against a judgment delivered last year. "We find no merit in the curative petition," it said before rejecting the plea.

The govt. take on this is as below:-
By the July 8, 2016 order, the SC had negated the protection against prosecution available to armed forces under AFSPA. The Centre had said, "If the position maintained by the impugned order continues, it may one day be well-nigh impossible to maintain peace and security. "The Indian Army has to, in given circumstances, take quick decisions which cannot be dissected later on like an ordinary murder appeal. In other words, the scope of judicial review against active military operations cannot be on the same parameters as in other situations. Therefore, action taken by Army during operations cannot be put to judicial scrutiny."
Its very curious to see familiar judicial names in this judgement.

Does the FIR automatically mean that a prosecution follows? or AFSPA protection still applies?

I think that AFSPA will apply. The cashmiris are trying out a new tactic and want to see how it goes. They are being aided by the state govt looking desperately for public absolution for their grave "sin" of aligning with the BJP to form the govt.

mufti is fighting with her burka to the wall for political survival and relevance. She needs the BJP badly just to survive in the true sense of the word, against the very real threat of death by suicide attack, orchestrated from across the border. Her cashmeri body guards will not help her.

She will need Hindu central forces just to survive if she qiuts the alliance and that will certainly end her career.

Under the Army act, crimes like murder cannot be tried by the Army, they can investigate but the actual trial is under the civil jurisdiction and so that case is by force transferred to the civil authorities.

In this case, it is not murder. It was a clear case of self defence caused the unprovoked attack by the terrorist mobs.

The circumstances are extenuating and have a bearing on the actions of the Army personnel.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Feb 2018 23:07

Vidur wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Calvin your math is also wrong. The ratio of 1:20 is number of secy level posts of IAS officers vs serving IAS officers ! How do other cadres come in ? You can do the same calculation for IPS, IFS etc, allied services etc separately.

I really wish Vidur would comment
You had asked me to comment so a a few short comments :

1. As I already said I do not disagree with you on many of the points you raised so I will not elaborate on those

2.You brought up the issue of 'aukaad'. Let me briefly explore this by the concept of power and how it is exercised in day to day life and what implications it has.

There are two types of states - one that is run by rule of law where the government and justice machinery delivers for all. Another is based on power transactions - where the machinery does not work and therefore power transactions determine outcomes from the state machinery. While this is naturally a continuum India clearly is on the power transactions end. In such a state the currency is not money it is power. Money can be easily generated from power and power independently can give most of the things that money gives. So if you want something , for example, medical attention either you must have money or you must have power (which itself often brings money) which you exchange for medical help. Take the case of an IPS officer. Regardless of whether he is honest or not, doing well or not, there is no circumstance when he will not get medical help or any other important service - either for money or for making friends with a powerful person. In that sense an IPS officer or a police inspector even is the most powerful person (after politicians and judiciary) in our society. He is more powerful even than an IAS and other services. There is no one who will have the courage to insult him. The transaction here is - I will protect you and you take care of my needs. It is another matter that a lot of the time this becomes more of an extortion transaction. But the principle is the same.

So power in India clearly vests with the politicians, judiciary and the civil service. This has nothing to do with honesty. Even the most honest IAS/IPS officer has this power by sheer virtue of the power of the service. This does lead to big egos. It is also taught in the various civil services academies that your are the most powerful people in the country. The armed forces clearly do not have this currency of power. Here is a recent news item. http://zeenews.india.com/india/watch-ar ... 78778.html. I do not know the veracity of this nor the circumstances but this incident does not surprise me because the currency is power (or money) and only people who have it have any respect in our country. Now this would never ever happen to a bureaucrat. The IPS would have the miscreants picked up and beaten up, the IAS would cancel his license and the IRS would launch an Income Tax raid.

The armed forces have no currency.

In essence that is the problem. It manifests in day to day life of making ends meet, getting services from the state, protecting your family (a point you made eloquently). But it also manifests in the higher defecse management and immediate and long term national security issues. We can explore these later.

Thank you for your comments.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2018 23:07

A view from the army
http://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/en/N ... s-of-AFSPA

During a firefight during counter insurgency operations, deaths are inevitable. Even otherwise, during encounters for a soldier, it is often a case of kill or get killed. Now if FIRs are to be filed, the prospects of troops spending the rest of their careers doing the rounds of Indian courts, would stare them in the face, were they to kill an insurgent. Equally justifying the necessity of their actions to judges in the courts, detached as they would be from the heat and pressures of combat, with local civilian witnesses invariably pitching for the terrorist/insurgent, the court verdicts are predictable.

In Counter insurgency operations, firefights are inevitable, where often collateral damage takes place and sometimes insurgents/terrorists kill locals knowing full well that the blame will invariably be pinned on the military personnel. At other times, situations often arise, where you either kill or get killed.

This one ruling by the Supreme Court is likely to impact counter-insurgency operations in many ways. One, troops may find it better to shy away from seeking combat with insurgents than face the prospect of being hounded in courts, years on end. Two, the overall impact on insurgency, because of this ruling will work in favour of insurgents.

There would yet be another angle to the filing of FIRs, where-in the one who orders an operation by the troops, which leads to death of an insurgent or an innocent civilian, as part of collateral damage, is also liable to be charged under such an FIR.

(Lt General Harwant Singh (Retired) is a former Deputy Chief of Army Staff)

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 05 Feb 2018 23:16

This one ruling by the Supreme Court is likely to impact counter-insurgency operations in many ways. One, troops may find it better to shy away from seeking combat with insurgents than face the prospect of being hounded in courts, years on end. Two, the overall impact on insurgency, because of this ruling will work in favour of insurgents.

This is most worrisome.. In Punjab, decades old encounter cases were dug up and the policemen hounded till at least a few committed suicide. The worry is not immediate outcomes, which will likely be few, but that may change with the change in political seasons.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Feb 2018 23:22

Re Gen Harwants article. Exactly my concern. I think army has to say ‘we are stopping CI Ops immediately’. If the police want to file FIRs let them handle the terrorists. And let the nation bear the consequences.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Feb 2018 23:33

Sudeep it’s not correct that there won’t be immediate outcome. Troops will avoid contact and officers will not plan and execute CT ops. Trust between troops and officers will be compromised. Trust in the country will be compromised. The terrorists haven’t been able to defeat us but our own courts and police have.

So let them handle the mess.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Feb 2018 23:49

sudeepj wrote:
This one ruling by the Supreme Court is likely to impact counter-insurgency operations in many ways. One, troops may find it better to shy away from seeking combat with insurgents than face the prospect of being hounded in courts, years on end. Two, the overall impact on insurgency, because of this ruling will work in favour of insurgents.

This is most worrisome.. In Punjab, decades old encounter cases were dug up and the policemen hounded till at least a few committed suicide. The worry is not immediate outcomes, which will likely be few, but that may change with the change in political seasons.

Those poor guys did not have the benefit of AFSPA.

Nevertheless, I take your point and it has serious dimensions as far as morale of the troops go.

The GoI should step in quickly, decisively and shut down this nonsense of state govts filing FIRs against the Army.

This has clear paki constructs.

The name(s) of the judge(s) who diluted AFSPA should be made known publicly. Their unwarranted liberandu interference and the ill consequences of their "judgement" should be publicly made known to them.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 06 Feb 2018 00:15

J S Khehar and Justices Dipak Misra, J Chelameswar, Madan B Lokur and U U Lalit.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2018 00:22

sudeepj wrote:J S Khehar and Justices Dipak Misra, J Chelameswar, Madan B Lokur and U U Lalit.

Thanks for the input.

Well, well, it figures.

That's 50% of the justice league of India right there.

I am equally sure that shekar ulloo ka dupatta was also lurking right behind them, at that time too.

It only reiterates my point of "unwarranted liberandu interference and the ill consequences of their "judgement" "

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 06 Feb 2018 00:55

14*72

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 06 Feb 2018 02:49

chetak wrote:
sudeepj wrote:J S Khehar and Justices Dipak Misra, J Chelameswar, Madan B Lokur and U U Lalit.
Thanks for the input.

Well, well, it figures.

That's 50% of the justice league of India right there.

I am equally sure that shekar ulloo ka dupatta was also lurking right behind them, at that time too.

It only reiterates my point of "unwarranted liberandu interference and the ill consequences of their "judgement" "

Putting together Vidur's observation about the forces lacking the 'currency' of power, what the Army and the CRPF should do is to withdraw from internal security duties in the valley and let Mehbooba run the state by herself. Sometimes, things need to get worse before they get better.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Feb 2018 02:54

sudeepj wrote:
chetak wrote:
Thanks for the input.

Well, well, it figures.

That's 50% of the justice league of India right there.

I am equally sure that shekar ulloo ka dupatta was also lurking right behind them, at that time too.

It only reiterates my point of "unwarranted liberandu interference and the ill consequences of their "judgement" "

Putting together Vidur's observation about the forces lacking the 'currency' of power, what the Army and the CRPF should do is to withdraw from internal security duties in the valley and let Mehbooba run the state by herself. Sometimes, things need to get worse before they get better.

Done unilaterally, the act is treasonous.

It needs to be done by the GoI, which rightly will not do it.