Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Jan 2019 14:36

Singha wrote:is it true that a proper 5.56mm rifle like insas,tar21,fnscar will deliver accurate single shot fire out to 600m with a regular barrel length, while AK manages 300m only?

given that engagements in J&K are at close range or inside forests the addl range is not perceived as a drag vs the heavier round to pierce trees and wooden walls?


Singha Ji, I think it is more like 100M for AK and 400M for 5.56. AK bullet drops and has high recoil so it will take a lot of skill to aim it accurately upto 300m. It is best for close quater less than 100m engagements.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Jan 2019 17:37

^^^ question for ballistics experts - IIRC at akshardham one of the problems that NSG had was that the pigs were outranging them using AK47s compared to the H&K MPGs; appreciate that its not a 5.56mm but the impression from reports at the time was that the AK47 was accurate to much longer ranges...?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 23 Jan 2019 18:02

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ question for ballistics experts - IIRC at akshardham one of the problems that NSG had was that the pigs were outranging them using AK47s compared to the H&K MPGs; appreciate that its not a 5.56mm but the impression from reports at the time was that the AK47 was accurate to much longer ranges...?


AKM can be considered reasonably accurate up to 150-200 meters. The 7.62x39 bullet, as soon as it enters transsonic region, starts to go wayward. Couple that with lower initial velocity to begin with, it ends up being less accurate than other intermediate rifle rounds. Specialised hunting / sniper rifle rounds like .408 Cheytac and .338 Lapua Magnum are very high velocity to begin with, and also have excellent transsonic performance. Then there are other factors like tendency to yaw, linear drag, spin drag and whatnot, which govern accuracy. The Russian 7.62x54 on the other hand is a criminally underrated round, perhaps the longest serving military standard ammunition till date.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Jan 2019 20:20

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ question for ballistics experts - IIRC at akshardham one of the problems that NSG had was that the pigs were outranging them using AK47s compared to the H&K MPGs; appreciate that its not a 5.56mm but the impression from reports at the time was that the AK47 was accurate to much longer ranges...?

That is pistol 9mm round , same problem was there for NSG in 26/11 and Pathankot. It's meant for 25m range engagements.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20661
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 26 Jan 2019 03:24

The Sikh Regiment, the most highly decorated Regiment of the Indian Army, is the only one that salutes twice on Republic Day: Once to the President of India, and once at Gurudwara Sisganj Sahib to honor Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, who was beheaded at that spot by Aurangzeb.

Jai Hind!



Image

Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 727
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Suresh S » 26 Jan 2019 05:57

Many years ago when I was a young fella I was roaming on one of my visits to old delhi. I noticed a large crowd near a Gurudwara. I walked upto it and asked a young Sikh what is this crowd for . he told me the story about Guru Tegh BahadurJi and his murder by Aurengjeb the bas****. I went inside the Gurudwara and prayed. That is how I first came to know about Gurudwara Sisganj.

The fake history that we were /are being taught is disgusting. Every Indian should know about the sacrifices made by Sikh Gurus for us. How many of us do not know that Guru Govind singhji sacrificed all his four sons for us, char Sahabjade. Every Indian should know about these things as soon as they are able to know in childhood, it must be made mandatory. How many of us have no idea about the battle of Chamkaur and how just 40 sikhs under Guru Govindsinghji fought an army of several thousands muslims.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jan 2019 19:24

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/10 ... 8174862336 ---> Once a militant, died an armyman, soon to be decorated with India's highest. The life of Lance Naik Nazir Ahmad Wani who gave his life fighting terrorists in Shopian in Nov last:

Surrendered in 2004
• Sena Medal 2007
• 2nd Sena Medal 2017
• Final operation 2018
Ashoka Chakra 2019

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jan 2019 19:30

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1089146556538712065 ---> So here a Chinese commentator highlights what I have been pointing out for long. The Indian Army is now the world's largest standing army in terms of personnel strength with the People's Liberation Army Ground Force having been downsized.

India-China relations: Brothers in arms, kind of
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/bl ... s-kind-of/

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4843
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Neshant » 27 Jan 2019 06:17

more money wasting ahead.


Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2019 06:18

I have a question on Lance Naik Wani, wouldn’t he have been a deep mole embedde among Jihadis to turn many of them around than actually be a Jihadi himself. I understand that after he came back from militancy he became a key player in Ikhwan!! Now that he is a shaheed wanted to get some clarity on this.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2019 06:20

There has been many DDM (f)articles in CSD of late and all of them are loaded with Ifs and Butts, one thing which irks me is that DDMs think IBGs would be sized less than the size of a Div? If IA already has around 20 divisions arrayed against Pulistan, why would IA try to put 8 IBGs smaller than a division size against ur ? Any gurus care to explain this?

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4373
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby JayS » 29 Jan 2019 09:47

We have some 40 Div in 14 Corps as per wiki. And some 140 IGB are planned to replace them. But this number will be fixed once IA conducts enough war excercises to validate the concept of IGB. The sizes of IGBs will vary as each once will be area warfare specific. Typically the ones in the plains will be large in size while those in Mountains are expected to be smaller.

Each infantry division is a force of around 14,000 soldiers backed by an armoured brigade of 80 tanks and artillery brigade of 500 guns, and can independently fight a ground war. One school of thought within the army calls for replacing all the 40 infantry divisions with nearly 140 IBGs

A very good article by Sandeep unnithan on this topic.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cove ... 2019-01-12

Since IA itself has not frozen the reconfiguration no one can tell you for sure. But above quoted statement from the linked article looks sensible at least. IGB will be smaller than Div since 140 IGB will replace 40 Div. I dont know why would someone think only 8-10 of those 140 IGB will be deployed on Wester front.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2019 16:49

^^ @Jays, everytime IA has wargamed CSD, it has involved 2 corps, 1 strike corps and 1 holding/pivot corps.. (I and X, II and XI, XII and XXI), when this is the case why would an IBG be a formation of size smaller than a division. Also how can such a small formation be ale thrust 50 KM into Terroristan and hold territory for even days without getting overwhelmed by their defence? My take is, it should be multi division sized!!

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2019 16:49

Can someone point me to the CSD thread? Thank you

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4373
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby JayS » 29 Jan 2019 19:06

Shrinivasan wrote:^^ @Jays, everytime IA has wargamed CSD, it has involved 2 corps, 1 strike corps and 1 holding/pivot corps.. (I and X, II and XI, XII and XXI), when this is the case why would an IBG be a formation of size smaller than a division. Also how can such a small formation be ale thrust 50 KM into Terroristan and hold territory for even days without getting overwhelmed by their defence? My take is, it should be multi division sized!!


I don't get you point. Multi-division size == Corps. How can IGB be of that size..? That defeats the whole purpose of creating a lean and mean self sufficient battle unit.

Existing 14 Corp are still gonna be there. Only they will command IGBs now instead of Divisions. And given 40 divisions will be re-configured into 140 IGB and total strength will be reduced by 50000-100000 soldiers, simple maths tells us that IGB will on an avg will be smaller than a Division, by a factor of about 4. This will eliminate Division HQs and thereby one level of admin, and associated cost.

An IGB is planned to be self-sufficient battle unit in all respects. A lean and mean unit, which is specialized in the warfare of that particular area and which is agile enough to make a cold-start like move on short notice. But I don't see why there will be only one IGB pushed in at a time in such case, unless we are talking of a local tactical operation.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2652
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 29 Jan 2019 19:27

IA Chief has specifically said Divisional HQ will not be removed.

I don't know if our Strike corps will be restructured, however my personal view they will stay in some form. They are quite powerful given their mass.

IBG are the units closer to the borders. They start the action and based on the situations, our Strike corps will be "bulldoze through". So far because our Strike Corps moved first, Pak NR & SR got committed after our move.

Now our Strike Corps can wait (gives them time to mobilize) and move in required direction. This is just my view. No idea what IA is thinking.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2019 21:09

@jays, thank you for explaining... if division HQ is eliminated, then a Corps HQ of a holding/Pivot Corp would command say 10 IBGs... essentially, this eliminates multiple hops.. rather than a Brigade level thrust in a sector we would be deploying a much larger formation IBG with its organic armor and artillery. This also gives the flexibility for a Corps Commander to deploy multiple IBGs simultaneously and direct them singularly avoiding the need to coordinate with multiple div HQ.. have we tested this before in a war game? I think not... if a Division HQ is not eliminated then what is the advantage.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2019 21:11

nam wrote:IA Chief has specifically said Divisional HQ will not be removed.

I don't know if our Strike corps will be restructured, however my personal view they will stay in some form. They are quite powerful given their mass.

IBG are the units closer to the borders. They start the action and based on the situations, our Strike corps will be "bulldoze through". So far because our Strike Corps moved first, Pak NR & SR got committed after our move.

Now our Strike Corps can wait (gives them time to mobilize) and move in required direction. This is just my view. No idea what IA is thinking.

I think Strike Corp formations would also become part of IBGs as these would also be forward deployed, maybe even their Corps HQ would even move closer... but then I am speculating too much..

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nachiket » 30 Jan 2019 01:07

nam wrote:IA Chief has specifically said Divisional HQ will not be removed.

Do you have a link for that? If there are no divisions and everything has been reconfigured into IBG's what exactly will the Div HQ do? The Sandeep Unnithan article mentions Div HQ's being removed and IBG's operating directly under the Corps HQ.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 30 Jan 2019 01:24

Div HQ's wont be removed, neither are Div's. all thats proposed is there would be no brigadier rank, people would go from Col. to Maj. Gen, but only some would command brigades and eventually Div's (and IBG's, in time).

here's the interview.

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 368
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby dinesh_kimar » 30 Jan 2019 08:54

^ Sandeep Unnithan says each division has arty bde of 500 guns?

More like 24 to 72 guns, with 3000-4000 troops.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20190
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Philip » 30 Jan 2019 09:44

Abolishing the one star rank of Brigadier? I doubt that the IAF and IN would abolish the Air Cmde., Cmde. ranks.
From what I understand after reading SU's article is that promotion to certain ranks like a full Col., which earlier required a panel approval, will now give way to an automatic promotion to the rank of a Brigadier.This will.also help solve the officer shortage and extend the period of service in the IA/ services by anothrr 5 yrs. or so.Right now at an early age officers who retire early have to exist on a pension for the rest of their lives, while they still have very useful years to serve.

A media report says that the IA now has another desi- developed arty piece, called Sharang being made by the Kanpur OFB unit ( inaugurated by the PM) which is a conversion of Ru 130mm field guns into a 155mm 45 cal.
gun by changing the barrel. The recent arty. modernisation and induction of the K-9 SP, ATAGS, Dhanush and now Sharang is to me one of the most positive snd exciting developments for over a decade as all these programmes have a massive indigenous content in design, modifications of exg. arty. and desi production ( K-9).If you add Pinaka and its planned ER rounds upto 100km, you have the cherry on the top!

PS: Another report says that the extra 484 T-90 tanks to be built at Avadi, approved in 2016 will be sealed and all deoyed against Pak.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20661
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 30 Jan 2019 14:26

Image


Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1983
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 30 Jan 2019 19:54

^ Awesome

Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 727
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Suresh S » 30 Jan 2019 20:36

thank you chetak

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nachiket » 31 Jan 2019 02:44

Rahul M wrote:Div HQ's wont be removed, neither are Div's. all thats proposed is there would be no brigadier rank, people would go from Col. to Maj. Gen, but only some would command brigades and eventually Div's (and IBG's, in time).

Unnithan has some seriously bad info then. Or maybe the plan is still evolving. Also, I'm sure it was talked about that the Brigadier rank would not go away but just become non-select.

ManuJ
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 294
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ManuJ » 01 Feb 2019 03:12

Yes, the brigadier rank is not going anywhere, it's becoming non-select.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1699
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 02 Feb 2019 00:19

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... sas/358404

New Delhi: After a long, long while, the Indian jawan on the line of control knows that modern, high-quality rifles are on the way. The defence minister, Ms Nirmala Sitharaman, has just cleared the purchase of 72,400 rifles for the Indian army, initially for soldiers in difficult conditions, fighting infiltrating terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir.

These are the SIG716-G2 rifles from Sig Sauer and delivery is likely within a year. There can be delays: the contract mentions delivery within a designated period. These will use 7.62 mm ammunition and they may be more effective than the indigenous INSAS rifles that use 5.56 mm ammunition.


7.62 NATO is back, at least in the valley.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Feb 2019 05:43

sudeepj wrote:https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/indian-army-jawans-ammunition-defence-ministry-nirmala-sitharaman-approves-purchase-of-72400-sig716-g2-rifles-sig-sauer-guns-ak47-assault-rifles-insas/358404

New Delhi: After a long, long while, the Indian jawan on the line of control knows that modern, high-quality rifles are on the way. The defence minister, Ms Nirmala Sitharaman, has just cleared the purchase of 72,400 rifles for the Indian army, initially for soldiers in difficult conditions, fighting infiltrating terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir.

These are the SIG716-G2 rifles from Sig Sauer and delivery is likely within a year. There can be delays: the contract mentions delivery within a designated period. These will use 7.62 mm ammunition and they may be more effective than the indigenous INSAS rifles that use 5.56 mm ammunition.


7.62 NATO is back, at least in the valley.


But who does it go to. RR does not use INSAS.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1699
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 02 Feb 2019 11:20

I suppose to units deployed on the LoC first, followed by RR. Pakis are still using G3s.. Even our FN-FALs outclassed that rifle. :-D

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21089
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 02 Feb 2019 12:07

sudeepj wrote:I suppose to units deployed on the LoC first, followed by RR. Pakis are still using G3s.. Even our FN-FALs outclassed that rifle. :-D


Read somewhere that longer barrel version of this gun extend rage by 6-700 Meeters.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Feb 2019 12:39

sudeepj wrote:I suppose to units deployed on the LoC first, followed by RR. Pakis are still using G3s.. Even our FN-FALs outclassed that rifle. :-D



So who gets the Caracal and why do we need AK? Plus bad idea to give them to RR. Maintenance and fatigue will kill us...
Last edited by ks_sachin on 02 Feb 2019 12:42, edited 1 time in total.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Feb 2019 12:41

Prem wrote:
sudeepj wrote:I suppose to units deployed on the LoC first, followed by RR. Pakis are still using G3s.. Even our FN-FALs outclassed that rifle. :-D


Read somewhere that longer barrel version of this gun extend rage by 6-700 Meeters.

The FN I have seen with a shorter barrel but never with a longer than the std barrel

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby souravB » 02 Feb 2019 20:22

ks_sachin wrote:So who gets the Caracal and why do we need AK? Plus bad idea to give them to RR. Maintenance and fatigue will kill us...

I do not think RR will get the Sigs, even if they do it will be in fewer numbers in DMR role. RR probably will get a mixture of caracals and AKs.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1699
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 02 Feb 2019 23:59

ks_sachin wrote:
sudeepj wrote:I suppose to units deployed on the LoC first, followed by RR. Pakis are still using G3s.. Even our FN-FALs outclassed that rifle. :-D



So who gets the Caracal and why do we need AK? Plus bad idea to give them to RR. Maintenance and fatigue will kill us...


I suppose means I dont really know.. :-) Has the caracal been ordered too? I saw a few reviews of the sig716 rifle on youtube.. It sounds like its supposed to be really easy to do maintenance on this rifle. The gas regulator has a couple of settings to ensure it works even if the weapon is fouled up.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2652
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 03 Feb 2019 01:02

Based on the reports, this will be our battle rifle, to be used by LoC troops. To smooth OFB ruffled feathers, some AK will be assembled.

I have a feeling once the first batch arrives, the Sigs will be asked to do a Make in India through some private player.


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 03 Feb 2019 22:42

Biggest New Assault Rifle Deal For Indian Army Finally In Sight
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... sight.html

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Feb 2019 08:33

^^ In service Negev? Negev is competing for FnMag replacement.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests