Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Arun.prabhu
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Arun.prabhu » 19 May 2019 22:51

The thing with armor that no one seems to get is that apart from protecting soldiers, the armor makes them as slow as snails. The modern US infantryman's armor weighs about 7.5 kgs with SAPI inserts. That's on top of his gun, his reloads, his communication gear and whatever else he has to carry. What would be the endurance of any soldier carrying that sort of load in the tropical heat?

Then there is the issue of the helmet and its attachments. The modern US infantryman's helmet is so heavy that neck muscle injuries are a common issue.

What the IA needs is armor that affords reasonable protection - not universal, but reasonable - is light, breathable (so that the sweat will evaporate), doesn't allow our soldiers to overheat in the tropical sun, and is cheap. Tall ask. What the Americans have today is a stupid solution imposed on them by a casualty averse and morally cowardly leadership that will put soldiers and victory at risk just to avoid a few body bags.

souravB wrote:There were too many BPJs developed by too many institutions. There was
1. BARC developed Kavach BPJs
2. Amity university prof Shantanu Bhowmik developed CNT enforced Kevlar for BPJs
3. Our own industrial companies providing BPJs
and now this.

For face protection there are newer helmets with mandibles that is being tested by British army


Also for groin protection, this is newest form tinkered by US Army design dept.

CalvinH
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby CalvinH » 20 May 2019 00:05

Arun.prabhu wrote:What would be the endurance of any soldier carrying that sort of load in the tropical heat?



With Kashmir as focus area I guess tropical heat is not much of a concern. Slow as a snail is not true. Average soldier can take that much of weight during regular patrol duties along LOC and in Kashmir. They are not expected to run continuously in CI Ops.

souravB
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby souravB » 20 May 2019 00:19

Arun.prabhu wrote:The thing with armor that no one seems to get is that apart from protecting soldiers, the armor makes them as slow as snails. The modern US infantryman's armor weighs about 7.5 kgs with SAPI inserts. That's on top of his gun, his reloads, his communication gear and whatever else he has to carry. What would be the endurance of any soldier carrying that sort of load in the tropical heat?

Then there is the issue of the helmet and its attachments. The modern US infantryman's helmet is so heavy that neck muscle injuries are a common issue.

That is why a jawan during it's training should be taught to treat the BPJ and helmet as part of their uniform.

Arun.prabhu
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Arun.prabhu » 20 May 2019 07:10

Thus totally ignoring the theatre where there'll be a real shooting war. I'll question the sanity of a policy that tries to equip soldiers for counterinsurgency ops with low tempo, short duration engagements as against a real war. Try running short sprints up or downhill while bearing 40/50 pounds of load.

CalvinH wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:What would be the endurance of any soldier carrying that sort of load in the tropical heat?



With Kashmir as focus area I guess tropical heat is not much of a concern. Slow as a snail is not true. Average soldier can take that much of weight during regular patrol duties along LOC and in Kashmir. They are not expected to run continuously in CI Ops.

Arun.prabhu
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Arun.prabhu » 20 May 2019 07:17

The medieval European knights used to do that. Wear armor all the time so that it became almost a second skin.The armor was so well designed that they could dance in it. The knights also rode on horses and every time they fought someone competent and did not obey the unstated rules of combat as followed by their European fellows, they lost stinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mohi

Speed is one of the principles of war. Body armor, surprisingly is not.

souravB wrote:That is why a jawan during it's training should be taught to treat the BPJ and helmet as part of their uniform.

souravB
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby souravB » 20 May 2019 17:30

Arun.prabhu wrote:
Speed is one of the principles of war. Body armor, surprisingly is not.

saar,
1. speed in op execution, not speed of individual soldier is a principle of war. unless you were talking about personal duel. It wasn't since human found gunpowder.
2. speed of a bullet is always much faster than the fastest soldier.
3. BPJs save lives from many non-direct but fatal injuries like shrapnel, IED, blunt trauma etc.
4. BPJs without the plate weighs much less and can still protect upto 7.62x39 steel core rounds from a certain distance. Regular jawan is not mid-western gunslinger where every second counts. He/she might be slow but it is better than be dead and not complete the mission.

Arun.prabhu
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Arun.prabhu » 20 May 2019 19:10

1. An army that isn't highly mechanized isn't going to be fast at anything if it's soldiers are overloaded with armor, weapons and what not. Reducing soldier load - patrol, march and combat - makes for faster soldiers who aren't tired out of their wits and who can think and act fast. Even in an mechanized army, depending on the shape of the terrain, one cannot depend on vehicles to haul an infantryman's ass close to the battlefield. The load an infantryman carries has an impact on how fast his team, squad, platoon or company can execute an op. You know what the Taliban called overloaded western infantymen in Afghanistan? Donkeys.

https://mwi.usma.edu/the-overweight-infantryman/

2. <ignore>Are there any other false logics and invalid keen observations you want to use to try to overawe me?</ignore> Edited response: Okay, that response was snide. My apologies. You're right that a soldier can't dodge a bullet, but that isn't what I'm asking for, is it? I want infantrymen who don't destroy their bodies bearing loads that their body isn't designed to support. I want armor that'll give them reasonable protection at a reasonable cost in mobility. I don't donkeys who can't pursue a retreating enemy and harry them to death or close with an enemy quickly during an assault. These are, I think, reasonable expectations.

3. We're agreed. If you'll read up the thread, you'll note that I did not argue for infantrymen to fight buck naked to save weight. I argued for reasonable protection.

4. I sound callous for saying this, but everyone and everything is expendable to the military mind in pursuit of a military goal. Ask all the soldiers who ever fought a rearguard action or a foiling raid with very little hope of survival or the first few waves to step onto a hostile beach. You also forget the corollary to your rule. Is it better to be alive but with a failed mission because you were borne down by your armor?

souravB wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:
Speed is one of the principles of war. Body armor, surprisingly is not.

saar,
1. speed in op execution, not speed of individual soldier is a principle of war. unless you were talking about personal duel. It wasn't since human found gunpowder.
2. speed of a bullet is always much faster than the fastest soldier.
3. BPJs save lives from many non-direct but fatal injuries like shrapnel, IED, blunt trauma etc.
4. BPJs without the plate weighs much less and can still protect upto 7.62x39 steel core rounds from a certain distance. Regular jawan is not mid-western gunslinger where every second counts. He/she might be slow but it is better than be dead and not complete the mission.

jaysimha
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 21 May 2019 14:28


jaysimha
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 24 May 2019 16:31


mmasand
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby mmasand » 08 Jun 2019 10:19

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 07360?s=19

These guys are hilarious! I'd wish for this clip to be shown to MoD procurement Babu's who sleep on files.


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