Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2020 17:08

one more link

https://www.mea.gov.in/articles-in-indian-media.htm?dtl/15228/Turning+nukes+on+their+head

To understand what has brought about this transformation and how significant it is, not only for India but for the people of the subcontinent, you need to flash back to the summer of 1990. This is when Pakistan first employed nuclear blackmail seriously and India's establishment responded, first, with weak knees and confusion and, later, with denial.


It had a whole chapter on South Asia with a stunning revelation that in the summer of 1990, as the two armies stood muzzle-to-muzzle and Benazir upped the rhetoric, Robert Gates (later CIA head), on a peace mission to South Asia for George Bush Sr, had been told by the Pakistanis to warn India that should a war begin they will open it with a pre-emptive nuclear strike.


Even before the Pakistanis, we denied the story, the kingpins of the ‘security and political' establishment condemned me as gullible, India Today, where I then worked, as ‘immature', and the authors of the book as idiots. The book was roundly condemned by so many luminaries of our security establishment in so many publications that it nearly sent Windrem into depression.

It is just that each time I met him in New York subsequently, he had more material to back his facts.

It was much later that some of the players of 1990 opened up to me. Yes, the Pakistanis had sent out a nuclear threat. Yes, the V.P. Singh government did not know what to do and while Gujral did defiantly rant to Sahibzada Yakub Khan, warning him of the perils of this blackmail, the fact is that our establishment had failed to show the resolve to counter it.


At his Almaty press conference, he even named former National Security Council official Bruce Riedel and rubbished accounts of how US intelligence had picked evidence of Pakistan deploying its nuclear weapons during the Kargil conflict.


It was only when the Agni Series became operational did the Pakis change their tune, we Indians are too attached to soap opera type mentality attacking our immediate relatives we fail to see the Pakistani mentality. They are rank bullies and until we show resolve that they are going to be in danger they are going to keep acting this way. The solution is correct Education, local MIC with overwhelming numbers and attitude to finish them off.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 07 May 2020 18:46

We knew about Pak's nuke program in early 80. Ops Brasstacks happened in 86!

It is not as if we were surprised by Pak nukes.

And F16 cannot carry such large nukes. The first nuke design were CH4, which are massive.

So threat, like now, was bogus.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 May 2020 19:24

One more thing to note is the coward IK, the same guy who compromised intel guys in ME country, pulled back plug from all raw network in pakistan..its for some good deeds of our ancestors that we even survive as a nation even such treachery

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 May 2020 19:26


Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2020 20:16

Yes but the threat was real and our peacenik mode brought us disaster. Thats why they had the guts to start kashmir insurgency without fear of a conventional retaliation.

We need to have a 10-15 year complete cold war while building up overwhelming military capabilities and take out the threat quickly, if we start now I belive we can be in position 2030-35, but I doubt whether the Indian deep state has understood its importance.

Pakistani leadership will do everything in their hands to destroy us, we need to break them before they do to us.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2020 20:19

nam wrote:We knew about Pak's nuke program in early 80. Ops Brasstacks happened in 86!

It is not as if we were surprised by Pak nukes.

And F16 cannot carry such large nukes. The first nuke design were CH4, which are massive.

So threat, like now, was bogus.


Pakistani Nuke program is bogus, they never had the technical skill or economic back up- they got tried and tested weapons from day 1 courtesy China and US who very enemical to India. It is the support of every anti Indian force in the world which keeps this artificial country from disintegrating.

A couple of Nukes when we were Nuke nood would have finished us, it was cobbling together a few nukes that saved us in 1990. Pokran 2 was a huge step for us , do you think Pakis developed their weapons in 17 days, they already had tried and tested Chinese nukes in 1998 with wink wink nod nod from Nuclear ayotollahs.

At the end of the day they are not a rational nation.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby dinesh_kimar » 07 May 2020 22:52

Aditya_V wrote:when Pakistan first employed nuclear blackmail seriously and India's establishment responded, first, with weak knees and confusion and, later, with denial.[/b]


Saar, the first paki nuclear threat is very much before 1990.

I remember reading abt Gen.Zia talking about it over the phone , to Morarji Desai I think.

Various sundry Pakistanis have been making this threat , especially Army officers and scientists, since the early 1980s. It's always " Inshallah, we will have a bomb in 12/24/36 months".

Even if they did threaten Gujaral in 1990, they would have to be pretty poor planners to ignore the test of an actual device in 1974, the availability of sufficient Jaguar and Mirage as delivery platforms in a similar role as used by NATO, the availability of air defence escorts in the Mig-29, the test of Agni missile for 2500 km range in 1989, a full year before the threat.

Even in 2019, the Pakistani threats were seen before Balakot.

After 1974, we are a nuclear power, period.

A declared capability of 200 kt, as addressed by our Parliament.

As rightly pointed out above, the main worry is a peacenik at the helm of things, such as MMS/ Gujaral or a minority United Front Government supported from outside.

There have been strikes by non nuclear nations on nuclear ones, most notably Vietnam.

Bangladesh border guards hit us in 2001, killing 16 soldiers, with no retaliation.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 May 2020 23:29

OT and last one from me on this, at the end of day it is the size of fight in the dog and not the size of dog in fight

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 May 2020 11:07

https://theprint.in/opinion/with-him-vi ... ssion=true


With ‘Him Vijay’ & Mountain Strike Corps, India can alter the way China border is managed

Indian Army's Mountain Strike Corps signals a historic shift in the way India defines deterrence in its relationship with China.

SAURAV JHA
9 October, 2019

China  has reportedly expressed concern about the Indian Army’s ‘Him Vijay‘ exercise currently taking place in distinct phases in Arunachal Pradesh. The Chinese reaction is hardly surprising given the strategic significance of this exercise, which marks the unequivocal operationalisation of various elements of the Indian Army’s XVII Corps or Mountain Strike Corps, headquartered in Panagarh, West Bengal.

As the name suggests, this Corps has been specifically raised and designed to undertake offensive operations across the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China. This, in turn, reflects a major change in India’s military posture vis-à-vis China, which has historically been of a wholly defensive orientation. Indeed, the People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF) can no longer simply decide when and where to provoke the Indian Army, while being content with the belief that the best India could do was reinforce its position in the vicinity of the provocation.

More importantly, the Mountain Strike Corps signals a shift in the way India defines deterrence in its relationship with China.

Deterrence as a military tactic

Deterrence usually takes a couple of forms. The first is the case of ‘deterrence by denial’. In this, the strategy is to deter enemy action by undermining a potential aggressor’s confidence in being able to attain key objectives, without incurring unacceptably high costs or risks. The second is ‘deterrence by punishment’, which seeks to temper aggressive intent by threatening to impose unacceptably high penalties on a potential attacker.

Since 1962, India has essentially maintained a ‘deterrence by denial’ posture along the LAC with the creation of several Indian Army mountain divisions designed to deny the Chinese any target of value, such as Tawang, which has historically been the most contentious element in India-China’s border dispute. This strategy, referred to as ‘dissuasion’ in Indian military parlance (dissuasion being the French word for ‘deterrence’), saw border areas being intentionally kept devoid of adequate infrastructure in order to make a Chinese advance that much more difficult, even as large Indian Army formations would seek to keep a close check on them in localised battles.

Unfortunately, by the 2010s, this dissuasive strategy became increasingly inadequate to deal with China’s current strategy of leveraging the potent communications infrastructure it has created on the Tibetan Plateau to intermittently provoke India with transgressions and even intrusions. These Chinese infringements intend to serve as a blackmail, reminding New Delhi of the possibility of de-facto occupation of parcels of territory owing to the mobilisation advantage possessed by Beijing’s forces.

The Indian Army’s response to this Chinese game has been to forward deploy troops even as it scrambles to fix infrastructural gaps. As a consequence, the Army is now almost linearly arrayed along the LAC without adequate defence in depth in certain sectors. It has also had to reinforce these forward posts over time in order to prevent them from being overwhelmed by Chinese patrols, besides increasing the frequency of its own patrols. But defending every ‘inch of soil’ along a Himalayan frontier is a financially expensive and logistically cumbersome proposition.

Moreover, while it is true that the PLAGF has been surprised by the sheer number of Indian troops it has encountered during recent transgressions and may even face reverses in a minor skirmish, the overall problem of the Chinese being able to mount a major offensive, with India being on the strategic defensive, cannot be addressed by forward deployment. If anything, it further reduces the Indian Army’s flexibility. The Chinese are still able to choose where and when to concentrate forces, and India is left scrambling to respond to a Chinese build-up.

Utilising MSC to an advantage

The answer, therefore, for India to be able to counter such threats lies in the creation of an offensive element that can deliver a ‘riposte’ by capturing a target of value in Tibet, just so that it could be used as a bargaining chip during a negotiation settlement on post-cessation of hostilities.

However, merely creating an MSC headquarters somewhere and raising a sizeable number of Indian Army troops does not constitute a deterrent. For the MSC to be effective, it must have very peculiar characteristics in terms of structure, equipment pattern and employment concepts, which in turn have to be refined via operational training.

This is precisely why ‘Him Vijay’ holds significance and has worried China. It shows that the MSC has matured enough for it to be operationally trialled in a major exercise.

Particularly noteworthy is the fact that for ‘Him Vijay’, the MSC is deploying three Integrated Battle Groups (IBGs) that are offensively oriented and brigade-sized formations with integral artillery firepower and support elements. The troop strength of these IBGs suggests that the Indian Army has arrived at a fighting formation strength and structure suited to the logistical realities of mountainous terrain.

Now, there will always be a temptation to employ MSC elements in local counter-attacks to supplement the defensive fight by Indian Army mountain divisions. Indeed, the choice of exercise area for ‘Him Vijay’ in Arunachal Pradesh may lead some to believe that this might be a key role for the MSC to display its military prowess.

However, reportage about the objectives of the three IBGs being deployed during ‘Him Vijay’ suggest that the MSC’s brief is true to its name with ‘air assault’, ‘troop mobilisation’ and ‘mountain assault’ capabilities being tested during the exercise.

The positioning of the MSC’s other division, the 72nd, all the way North in Pathankot, suggests that the MSC is not going to be an area-specific enterprise, which intends to make it difficult for Chinese planners to pre-empt an offensive by blocking possible axes of advance into Tibet.

MSC — India’s prized possession

Interestingly, there is an obvious target for the MSC that the PLAGF may not be able to do much about. One is, of course, referring to the Chumbi Valley at whose foot lies the Doklam plateau that has emerged a flashpoint in recent times.

In fact, a credible MSC will undermine whatever psychological bulwark the PLAGF has been trying to gain by encroaching Doklam from the narrow confines of Chumbi.

Not only is there a major Indian presence on the flanks of Chumbi, the MSC will also in due course confer upon the Indian Army the capability to occupy dominating positions closer to the head of the Chumbi Valley in Tibet.

Indeed, the Chumbi Valley represents an ideal location in that the MSC elements will be capable of moving forward from launchpads secured by other Indian Army formations.

Overall, this shift in the Indian posture, if sustained through resources and commitment, will likely lead to a change in the way the India-China border is managed.

Credible offensive capability will make it psychologically easier for India to move back troops from the LAC in certain areas and instead use reserves and remote surveillance to mark its presence, much like the Chinese do today. Of course, this shift can only work once adequate transport infrastructure is in place. Perhaps this is the real challenge India must overcome at the earliest.

The author is a former consultant to FICCI’s International Division and Chief Editor of Delhi Defence Review. His Twitter handle is @SJha1618. Views are personal. 


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Larry Walker » 11 May 2020 11:51

Chief Editor of Defence Review and cannot look beyond his nose. The article says that IA has enough and more forces to hold back Chinese on any front and MSC has been created for riposte. And he thinks riposte is to fight the Chinese on Indian ground ?? MSC has been created to take over Nyingchi and Lhasa when push comes to shove.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby pushkar.bhat » 11 May 2020 12:25

Larry Walker wrote:Chief Editor of Defence Review and cannot look beyond his nose. The article says that IA has enough and more forces to hold back Chinese on any front and MSC has been created for riposte. And he thinks riposte is to fight the Chinese on Indian ground ?? MSC has been created to take over Nyingchi and Lhasa when push comes to shove.


I believe that there are more than one voice which is asking India to reassess its capabilities vis-a-vis China. Similar comments on the ORF YouTube Channel states that a recent report by Frank O'Donnell and Alexander Bollfrass suggests that the pessimistic Indian assessment of the balance of forces vis-a-vis China may be mistaken and a poor guide for Indian security policy.

See the links below:

China India Postures
India is building nuclear submarines and ICBMs. That’s a $14 billion mistake.
PLA Joint Exercises in Tibet: Implications for India




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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 11 May 2020 13:58

Interesting gyan on asking India to reduce nuke platform and invest on conventional. This is very logical... however it depends on the person providing the gyan.

Gora boys have a self interest in Indian not expanding SSBN, and would like India rather concentrate on Agni deployments in NE.

Needless to say, these won't reach their shores, compared to a SSBN.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 11 May 2020 14:02

Post Dokhlam, I was hoping that MoD would kick off a large domestic R&D and production push, to deal with the threat from Dragon.

Sadly nothing has happened. Not one important local kit has been inducted since Doklam. No long range SAM or towed artillery or LCA in numbers.

Doklam changed nothing for us.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 11 May 2020 14:34

Strategic roads, K-9, M-777 orders, Dhanush induction, I think there a few items which we are doing. But clearly the pace is no where at the pace Jingos would like.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 May 2020 14:54

pushkar.bhat wrote:
Larry Walker wrote:Chief Editor of Defence Review and cannot look beyond his nose. The article says that IA has enough and more forces to hold back Chinese on any front and MSC has been created for riposte. And he thinks riposte is to fight the Chinese on Indian ground ?? MSC has been created to take over Nyingchi and Lhasa when push comes to shove.


I believe that there are more than one voice which is asking India to reassess its capabilities vis-a-vis China. Similar comments on the ORF YouTube Channel states that a recent report by Frank O'Donnell and Alexander Bollfrass suggests that the pessimistic Indian assessment of the balance of forces vis-a-vis China may be mistaken and a poor guide for Indian security policy.

See the links below:

China India Postures
India is building nuclear submarines and ICBMs. That’s a $14 billion mistake.
PLA Joint Exercises in Tibet: Implications for India





So Arihants and Agni 5s are a mistake? India should be without ICBMs , nuclear weapons & Agni 5s as they're total waste of money. These assholes are cheeni bribed cockroaches.

These are the sort who will find agreement with kavita krishnan, D Raja et al

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby pushkar.bhat » 11 May 2020 16:04

@manish_sharma: - I will request you to go through the content I have shared. Its a counterpoint and one that says that India is not as weak as it projects.

That projection itself will be part of our strategy of strategic ambiguity. Let's not start equating them with Kavita Krishnan or D Raja.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Philip » 11 May 2020 20:47

:twisted: êIn retrospect,I remember reading a v.good piece a few decades ago by a strat. expert,can't remember whether it was by the late KS, that Pak had stolen a march over India in the nuclear stakes right at the beginning of the subcontinent's N-race, by obtaining Chin . ballistic missiles,while we were testing Prithvi and in the infant stages of Agni. Operational Chin. strat. missiles were transferred to Pak,along with their N-warhead designs which they tested after P-2 after the Pakis ran to Beijinv to get prmission to test them in remote Baluchistan . It was around the same time that the Saudis got Chin. DF-31 BMs to have Paki N-warheads,part of the triad deal.Saudi moolah to fund the programme,Chin. nuke and missile tech. and Paki tech. manpower to assemble the lot. Paki N-plants were Chin., built without adhering to intl. safeguards,Corrupt Chin-lover Clinton turned a blind eye to the proliferation going on and India was the patsy during the Weepy Singh, Gujral era, where two gutless PMs did bugger all while Gujral was charged for betraying our intel ops in Pak too!

India has always been the patsy when it comes to US-Pak overt and covert fornication,all at India's expense.But right now with maverick Trump as pres., some heat has been applied to the Paki backside,why it has become a Chin. satellite, servile and obsequious ,grovelling before its yellow masters handing over POK and Paki territory and facilities to the yellow peril.

The simultaneous terror ops and Chin. argy- bargy on two Himalayan fronts,at Ladakh and Sikkim, are not coincidental.The Sino-Pak axis of evil as I predicted some months ago is making use of the CV crisis plus our eco woes of recent times to stir the pot with a multi-dimensional spat probably on the cards. Our modernisation and upgradation of weapon systems has just begun ,the MSC and other planned countermeasures to defeat the axis JV plans is in the doldrums due to the funds crisis. Across the board acquisitions are being cut by around 40% at least. At a time when the US retreats from Afg., to spare them the same fate as we witnessed in Saigon decades ago, This has released scores of jihadi firang fighters to bolster the Paki terror brigade being sent over in increasing numbers in Kashmir. We have no alternative but to carefully plan countermeasures and see that key elements of our logistic chain are allowed to function .All DPSUs and pvt. players must be allowed to work overtime at this juncture, so that the armed forces have enough ammo and logistic supplies for an extended campaign,not a short,swift spat.
Last edited by Philip on 11 May 2020 21:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby dinesh_kimar » 11 May 2020 20:53

BTW, happy "Buddha Purnima" day, on this day in 1998, nuclear devices were detonated.

Army Engineers who dug up the various shafts have our admiration.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 13 May 2020 14:20

Very nice talk by Gen Arun in Chennai:


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby basant » 13 May 2020 16:17

Thank you for sharing. No words to express.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 May 2020 16:29

phillip ji while geehardy's have been released..what is different this time around is our CI grid on LC and IB. Unlike last time around, we have RR and our arty situation will keep on improving too. We are much better economically and there is a leadership that will not take things lying down. Here is a nation which is young and doesnt take BS, yes there are different voices..but its not the fatigued nation of 90s which always thought that everything desi is wrong..if anything a crisis will put us in higher orbit...

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gerard » 13 May 2020 23:25

Army considers ‘tour-of-duty’ model to allow youth to serve for 3 years
“This is an ideal opportunity for those individuals who do not want to make defence services their permanent vocation, but still want to experience the thrill and adventure of the military profession and the glamour of donning the uniform,” the proposal said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 14 May 2020 00:38

The elephant in the room is the pension bill. It has become such a problem that we're now forced to look at these kind of proposals.

Perhaps the OROP wasn't such a great idea after all.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby abhik » 14 May 2020 01:10

This is unavoidable, the pension bill is not sustainable in the longterm - question is when/who is going to going to cut the gordian knot.
Here's an article by Bharat Karnad from a couple of years ago: https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/07/22/arm ... r-service/

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby VinodTK » 14 May 2020 02:20



But what about combat skills, experience and preparedness of the ToD cadre to go to war?


“This argument can be negated with the demonstrated performance of our officers and jawans with less than three years service in the Kargil war. If the ToD officers/jawans undergo the same training (for nine months) as the regular officers/other ranks, then their commitment, dedication and performance should not be in any doubt,” the proposal added.

Former army vice chief Lieutenant General AS Lamba (retd) said the ToD model was a laudable idea to fill the critical shortfall of young officers on the assumption that performance of officers with three years of service has been extremely good.

Lamba, however, said, he saw two challenges. “One, the selection of suitable volunteers from the civil environment for this type of limited engagement who would take much longer to motivate than train. And second, training them for critical front-line combat deployments,” he added.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 14 May 2020 02:35

abhik wrote:This is unavoidable, the pension bill is not sustainable in the longterm - question is when/who is going to going to cut the gordian knot.
Here's an article by Bharat Karnad from a couple of years ago: https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/07/22/arm ... r-service/


It has to come from the services themselves. Politicians cannot do it. GoI is indirectly now holding the services responsible for the defence, from a budget perspective as well. Services cannot ask for more funds, nor leave the security of the nation in peril.

Services are now in a blind. They cannot afford to loose the next war, because they wanted good pension.

I imagine there might be a joint presser from all Chiefs, sometime in the future announcing a cut in the pension to fund capital purchase.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ManuJ » 14 May 2020 03:28

Cutting back pension increases is going to be next to impossible. There will be a revolt in the ranks. Hence the scramble to find new solutions. Don't know how much 3-year stints would help. The real solution is to do more with less in terms of manpower - reduce size of formations with corresponding increase in technology, increase teeth-to-tail ratio, stop the practice of jawans doing menial jobs in and around officers' homes, etc.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Philip » 14 May 2020 07:41

There will be a cascading effect in recruitment too,if pensions for putting your life on the line is chopped! It is not the forces who require cuts but the batallions of babus who've multiplied in recent times like cancer! Who really needs these new babu offices flanking Rajpath or a new parliament,especially at this time? Costs can certainly be cut across the board but NOT at the dxpense of thd country's security.

The ranks of inflated babudom are the deadliest enemy of all.
Cut the nations babus by 25% and see what a massive saving is made,which can be used for defence,health instead, not gifted to dodgy banks to cover their losses in hundreds of billions to cr[oks who've loan defaulted in the billions like Mallya and the Modis,who have earlier been protected by the political and babu establishment. Reduce police protection for politicos drastically,emulate advanced western nations.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby manjgu » 14 May 2020 11:46

a retd 2 star officer get Rs 151425/ pm as pension ....

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby mody » 15 May 2020 15:48

61st Cavalry regiment, the only horse mounted regiment in the army, set to be mechanised. The horses will be replaced with T-72 tanks. Up to now, 61st Cavalry did not really participate in any operational duties. The Shekatkar committee report has been accepted and the regiment is set to be mechanised.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 15 May 2020 15:56

Image

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 May 2020 15:59

for a change i so wished to see Arjun Mk2..i am sure Arjun Mk2 has 1500 BHP

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby yensoy » 15 May 2020 16:11

The 3 year stint is a great idea at this time. It is basically like "national service" in many countries. It also comes at a time when the economy is ravaged and jobs may not be available for a couple of years. I personally would have been very tempted to take this up after my graduation had it been available decades ago.

Regarding pensions, yes high ranking officer pensions are large but the bigger issue is with the lower ranked soldiers who retire very early in life (compared with civilians). With longer life expectancies all around, and the fact that the spouse is also entitled to pension, the duration of the pension is often longer than active service. If there is some way the retirement is phased (i.e. from fighting force to paramilitary, or government duties for a few years) then it can help. Also switching to a blend of defined benefit/defined contribution (i.e. half of fauji's pension contribution goes to market based/GoI securities).

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 May 2020 16:23

yensoy wrote:The 3 year stint is a great idea at this time. It is basically like "national service" in many countries. It also comes at a time when the economy is ravaged and jobs may not be available for a couple of years. I personally would have been very tempted to take this up after my graduation had it been available decades ago.

Regarding pensions, yes high ranking officer pensions are large but the bigger issue is with the lower ranked soldiers who retire very early in life (compared with civilians). With longer life expectancies all around, and the fact that the spouse is also entitled to pension, the duration of the pension is often longer than active service. If there is some way the retirement is phased (i.e. from fighting force to paramilitary, or government duties for a few years) then it can help. Also switching to a blend of defined benefit/defined contribution (i.e. half of fauji's pension contribution goes to market based/GoI securities).

i looked for any age limit that it might have..i would not mind to be a good pencil pusher for few years..imagine BRF radicalized joining forces

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 15 May 2020 18:18

^ Sir, i think they are looking at the age group around 23-24?

The article does say

The proposal cites a survey that has indicated that corporate houses would prefer employing individuals who have been trained by the military and join them at the age of 26-27 after a three-year ToD rather than college graduates.

“Many corporates have indicated that ToD officers would also be preferable to the current SSC workforce joining them at the age of 33-34 after 10 years of service. The ToD concept will become attractive if seen by the youth as a vehicle which boosts their subsequent career in the government or the corporate world,” the proposal said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 May 2020 18:21

yes..i know they did mention..i am a decade and half old for that...would still consider taking a sabbatical..for few years..for anything i can help..

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 15 May 2020 18:34

Indeed, who knows when the stars might align.. Keep the spark lit.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nachiket » 15 May 2020 22:58

mody wrote:61st Cavalry regiment, the only horse mounted regiment in the army, set to be mechanised. The horses will be replaced with T-72 tanks. Up to now, 61st Cavalry did not really participate in any operational duties. The Shekatkar committee report has been accepted and the regiment is set to be mechanised.

Why had it not been disbanded/converted long ago? This is like the IAF keeping a squadron of Westland Wapiti's operational till today for no purpose. Amazing that it took the Shekatkar committee report to make the IA decide to deal with it.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 16 May 2020 02:17

^^^ Because there is something known as history, lineage, customs, nuances when it comes the Services. And especially, the army. Every army swears by its customs and traditions. And that holds good anywhere.

Not that I've any issues with converting this Regiment into a full fledged Armored Regiment, but my reasons are a bit different. And they're also from purist POV.

Here's a bit of history about it.

Remember the Teen Murti in Delhi and the famous Haifa charge in World War 1?

Well, two of the three Cavalry Regiments of State Forces grouped under 15th (Imperial Service) Cavalry Brigade, took part in this charge. The three Regiments were the Jodhpur Lancers, Mysore Lancers and Hyderabad Lancers. Jodhpur Lancers (main charge), Mysore Lancers (support to main charge) and Hyderabad Lancers (the unit had been detached and wasn't there)

Teen Murti remembers each of the three Cavalry Regiments.

Post 1947, the three Regiments were amalgamated into 61 Cavalry.

Some even rue the fact that each of these Cavalry Regiments should've had an individual armored regiment to carry forward their legacy and not be amalgamated into one regiment.

So, the history and nostalgia bit in the army, with all its quirkiness and nuances is a pretty strong thing. You can disagree with the POV but don't discard or disrespect the history and the sentiments associated with it.

On a different note - I know first hand that many within the army frown upon the lifestyle of 61 Cavalry.

Remember, these guys wine and dine with the most elite of our society, courtesy their exploits in the polo ground and equestrian events.

You've to be super rich, or Indian Army, to maintain a polo team with finest of horses and men.

So, they do have a pretty glamorous lifestyle. Which is NOT liked by many army officers.

Here's a personal anecdote -

A very close friend's younger brother, who was about to commission from OTA, Madras, had the option to join 61 Cavalry through some contacts. The family hailed from Rajasthan, old Rajput landed gentry and all that...so, family had good connections.

Friend's father was also serving and had commanded an Infantry Regiment with very good record.

When the father came to know that one of his relatives was trying to influence his son to join 61 Cavalry, he called up his son in the academy that told him point-blank that he won't come down to his passing-out-parade if he even thought of joining 61 Cavalry!

The guy ended-up in Infantry.

Having said that, if they convert 61 Cavalry into an armored regiment, and it seems to be only a matter of time, I hope they some-how retain the lineage of the old State Cavalry Regiments.

The reason I say this is because from what is publicly available information, three existing Independent Armored Squadrons (Recce Squadrons) will be put together under 61 Cavalry.

And each of these (I) Armored Squadrons are affiliated to existing Armored Regiments of the Indian Army. So, they have their own lineage.

Which basically means, its the dead-end for the lineage of existing squadrons which come from old State Cavalry Regiments.

Had existing squadrons converted to armored roles, then they would've carried forward their flags and colors and lineage but that is not so the case.

As the above gyaan shows, this simple exercise is not so simple!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Sanju » 16 May 2020 07:56

RV, wonderful post as always.


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