Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Sep 2014 09:55

Modernisation freeze and policy drift over the past decade is aggravated by a part-time defence minister

C-h-i-n-k-s in the armour

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sand ... 82294.html

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Sep 2014 09:56

Almost 12 years back our gurus have indentified some good people in Army - Guess who is that -

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=321

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Sep 2014 18:08

paging rohit, can you ID this ?

details here : http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2014/09/ar ... ision.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Sep 2014 22:16

Yagnasri wrote:Almost 12 years back our gurus have indentified some good people in Army - Guess who is that -

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=321

Wow YI Patel take a bow..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Sep 2014 23:01

Rahul M wrote:paging rohit, can you ID this ?

details here : http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2014/09/ar ... ision.html

That is 56 MD formation sign. And I can see that my fellow orbat junkie has already given answered the query on your blog!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Sep 2014 23:54

dhanyabad ! same Q to you, i.e what is the white thing supposed to be ?

p.s. karan, you have mail.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 29 Sep 2014 08:24

Have any of you guys read this book? A relatively recent read. Got published last year.

Also, there is a lot going on in that front cover image above!

-Vivek

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 29 Sep 2014 09:47

Yagnasri wrote:
Almost 12 years back our gurus have indentified some good people in Army - Guess who is that -

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=321

Wow YI Patel take a bow.

Wow.. Way before my time. Guru's is it possible to reinstitute threads like this?

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 29 Sep 2014 11:37

Yagnasri wrote:Almost 12 years back our gurus have indentified some good people in Army - Guess who is that -

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=321

Impressive for folks to call out an audible so early on.

To be fair, 5th Gurkha's (Piffers) have always been one of the more storied Infantry Regiments in the Army. Their 1st and 2nd Battalions have always been extremely highly regarded. The 2nd Battalion chalked out the most VC actions in the British Indian Army.

The Chief has had a rather skewed career path. He raised a Assam Rifles Battalion in Nagaland but his CI Ops credentials were very impressive. IIRC, He even was awarded as a Corps Commander the UYSM.

The Assam Rifles affinity with the Gurkha Regiment is historical and even today, the original five battalions are still linked by umbilical cords to different Gurkha Battalions each served as the feeder unit in the early days of its formation. Hence the 1st Assam Rifles, (Lushai Hills Battalion) is affiliated with the 2nd Group, 2nd and 9th Gurkha Regiment, the 2nd A.R. (Lakhimpur Battalion) is affiliated with the 5th Group, 7th and 10th G.R., the 3rd A.R. (Naga Hills Battalion) is affiliated with the 1st Group, 1st and 4th G.R., the 4th A.R. (Manipur Battalion) is affiliated with the 4th Group, 5th and 6th G.R., and the 5th A.R. (Darrang Battalion) is affiliated with the 3rd Group, 3rd and 8th G.R. (Shakespear).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Sep 2014 09:51

Honeywell and Tata Power to partner on producing TALIN systems for IA

Honeywell International has inked a partnership agreement with India’s Tata Power to license-produce the tactical advanced land inertial navigator (TALIN) system.

“TALIN represents the latest in global positioning system (GPS)-free navigation and positioning technology, designed to improve asset safety and ultimately mission success,” said Arijit Ghosh, Honeywell president for aerospace in India, according to a statement released Sunday.

An executive of Tata Power said TALIN would be sold to the Indian Army for use in artillery systems and also sourced to the Honeywell supply chain worldwide.

TALIN systems are ideal for environments where GPS signals are not available, the Tata executive said, so they would find a ready market with the Indian Army.

...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Oct 2014 12:22

Indian Army finally starts rifle trials
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

The Indian Army began trials in early September to select a 5.56 mm multi-calibre assault rifle.

Featuring four models, the trials began at the Bakloh cantonment in the Himalayas, 565 km north of New Delhi. Spread across locations including the northern Ladakh region, Punjab's plains, and the Rajasthan desert, the trials are expected to last several months.

The competing rifles are Beretta's ARX160 (Italy), Colt's Colt Combat Rifle (United States), the Czech Republic's CZ 805 BREN, and the Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) ACE 1 - a variant of its ACE rifle. SIG Sauer, which responded to the November 2011 tender for 66,000 rifles, is not participating in the trials.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Oct 2014 17:56

vaibhav

Can you confirm that the chief is the same Dalbir singh from IPKF

I am not able to get absolute confirmation-

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 02 Oct 2014 18:57

It is improbable that reference made above pertains to one and the same person.

Present COAS Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag served in IPKF as company commander in 4/5 GR (FF) was GOC 8 Mtn Div in 2007-08 as Maj Gen.

Lt Col Dalvir Singh, awarded VrC as CO 10 PARA SF in IPKF was later GOC Kilo Force RR in 2002-03 as Maj Gen.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 02 Oct 2014 19:17

vivek_ahuja wrote: Have any of you guys read this book? A relatively recent read. Got published last year.

Also, there is a lot going on in that front cover image above!

-Vivek

Whats going on there, Vivek?

Also, What's the gun the soldiers are carrying in the pic? I see no mag in it. I cant get a good view of it, the pic is too small. Shot gun?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 02 Oct 2014 21:34

sudhan wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote: Have any of you guys read this book? A relatively recent read. Got published last year.

Also, there is a lot going on in that front cover image above!

-Vivek
Whats going on there, Vivek? Also, What's the gun the soldiers are carrying in the pic? I see no mag in it. I cant get a good view of it, the pic is too small. Shot gun?

INSAS.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Oct 2014 09:38

sudhan wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote: Have any of you guys read this book? A relatively recent read. Got published last year.

Also, there is a lot going on in that front cover image above!

-Vivek
Whats going on there, Vivek? Also, What's the gun the soldiers are carrying in the pic? I see no mag in it. I cant get a good view of it, the pic is too small. Shot gun?

Thakur_B has already mentioned that these are INSAS rifles. But note that the color of the rifles and how they are painted/covered relative to the orange-brown coloration of the standard INSAS rifles. Also note the new backpacks of the infantry soldier and other equipment on the soldiers. Identical camo, uniforms, weapons and gear.

A world of improvements since Kargil!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Oct 2014 10:50

Are UBGL's now more common with the IA now?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2014 11:20

Aditya_V wrote:Are UBGL's now more common with the IA now?

The first order was for 10,000 units by the army, the status of subsequent orders is not yet known. However, during last year's border standoff with Pakistan, several INSAS were seen equipped with it. Both Arsenal's and ARDE-OFB's UBGL have been seen on various AKMs and INSAS.

Arsenal UBGL on INSAS (ITBP)

Both ARSENAL and ARDE-OFB UBGL in use (CRPF-Cobra)

ARDE's Brochure showing ARDE-OFB UBGL with AKM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XaN4HdSo3Bo/T ... UBGL-1.jpg

Edit: A fire control computer has also been developed to go along with the ARDE UBGL for programmable grenades. It was hidden away in one of the MCIWS posters.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Oct 2014 12:32

vivek_ahuja wrote:...note that the color of the rifles and how they are painted/covered relative to the orange-brown coloration of the standard INSAS rifles. Also note the new backpacks of the infantry soldier and other equipment on the soldiers. Identical camo, uniforms, weapons and gear.

A world of improvements since Kargil!

+10000
There is a quantitative in gear...I would like to add couple more +ve items.
1) Shoes/Boots: Lightweight boots which go over trousers.
2) Spacious but light weight Backpack:
3) BPJs: Eventhough not all of them are wearing BPJs, the ones who are wearing it, seem comfortable and un-encumbered with it. This means it is fitting and light weight.

couple of nice-to haves / must haves (not cribs)
1) Tactical radios: Eventhough there are many pics of IA Ghataks ans SF soldiers with tactical radios, none of the soldiers in this pic seem to have one. Maybe there is a platoon radio operator but not at individual level. May be I am not seeing it.
2) Helmet or protective eye wear: most of the men are sardars, but still no head protection.
3) NVG: looks like night, but no one has NVG?
Still miles ahead of where they were even 5 years back.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2014 12:43

Shrinivasan wrote:+10000
There is a quantitative in gear...I would like to add couple more +ve items.
1) Shoes/Boots: Lightweight boots which go over trousers.
2) Spacious but light weight Backpack:
3) BPJs: Eventhough not all of them are wearing BPJs, the ones who are wearing it, seem comfortable and un-encumbered with it. This means it is fitting and light weight.

couple of nice-to haves / must haves (not cribs)
1) Tactical radios: Eventhough there are many pics of IA Ghataks ans SF soldiers with tactical radios, none of the soldiers in this pic seem to have one. Maybe there is a platoon radio operator but not at individual level. May be I am not seeing it.
2) Helmet or protective eye wear: most of the men are sardars, but still no head protection.
3) NVG: looks like night, but no one has NVG?
Still miles ahead of where they were even 5 years back.

Here's where we might end up 5 years from now. From a 2011 RFI for F-INSAS program. 90% of the stuff depicted already exists, it's just a matter of funding and setting the requirements straight.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Oct 2014 14:10

That's quite a lot of electronic gear. They will need to carry a lot of batteries for extended deployments (during 26/11, the NSG ran out of batteries for NVG within a day), and they need some way of venting the waste heat without standing out on thermal sights.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 03 Oct 2014 15:01

Surya wrote:vaibhav

Can you confirm that the chief is the same Dalbir singh from IPKF

I am not able to get absolute confirmation-

Surya Sir,

Our unit was there during same time. Had a word with dad, 4/5 GR was there in IPKF with 72 Bde. Although he does not remember, likely the COAS joined unit post the incident to fill up ranks after it had been pulled back to the Div rear due to heavy officer casualties for some reason.

Incidentally, He tells me 4/5 Gurkha's is among the only two Triple MVC Battalions in the entire Army. The other being 8 Guards. Cheers!!

Rest of the chaps I know weren't around during IPKF.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 03 Oct 2014 15:19

@Shrinivasan

In a Rifle Platoon, the Platoon Havaldar carries the STARS V. Hand-held radios are further issued at a section commander and his deputy level, allowing the individual sections to manouvre as per the Platoon Commander's orders. Ditto with Night Vision Devices.

At a section level, the Section Commander leads the Assault Group with 6 Riflemen and his deputy would lead the Bren Group with an LMG No1 and LMG No2 manning a single LMG.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2014 16:14

srin wrote:That's quite a lot of electronic gear. They will need to carry a lot of batteries for extended deployments

Boots that generate electricity while walking, no seriously, that's how they are planning to do it.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 03 Oct 2014 21:34

Came across this http://www.janes.com/article/43899/indi ... fle-trials

So we finally going to ditch making our bread and butter basic equipment INSAS rifles and move over to imported maal. What is India missing here?

We are rolling back to been a banana republic - great going!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Oct 2014 21:40

Nobody else reporting other than Janes. I dont the 5.56mm imported rifle will go through.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Oct 2014 22:27

Fully imported or imported design manufactured by OFB ? If it is the latter, then not sure about the whole point.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2014 22:53

nik wrote:Came across this http://www.janes.com/article/43899/indi ... fle-trials

So we finally going to ditch making our bread and butter basic equipment INSAS rifles and move over to imported maal. What is India missing here?

We are rolling back to been a banana republic - great going!

Sad story chapter 1: The rifle and carbine procurement hasn't been linked for commonality.
66,000 directly imported and remaining of 180,000 made by OFB.
(Beretta ARX-160, IWI Galil, Bren CZ-805, Colt CM-901)

44,000 carbines and the remaining of 400,000 made by OFB.
(Beretta ARX-160, IWI Galil, Colt M4)

Sig Sauer has pulled out of the rifle tender and it's not clear if they will participate in carbine tender either.

Sad story chapter 2: The QC football that was played between ARDE and OFB for the entire run of INSAS production.

Sad story chapter 3: No after market upgrades for existing INSAS rifles (ie in light weight furniture with picatinny rails) either by ARDE or OFB. ARDE abandoned it when it went to OFB, OFB treated it like someone else's baby.

Sad story chapter 4: Half baked higher priced latter variants of INSAS hawked by OFB (Excalibur), or trying to resurrect INSAS carbine by adding a pre discharge chamber to fix the recoil issues (Kalatak).

Sad story chapter 5: The inability of the designer ARDE to come up with a decent carbine in 5.56x45 mm.

Sad story chapter 6: The dirty dirty world of small arm procurement in India.

No one's innocent in this saga. Neither the forces, nor ARDE, nor OFB.

Glimmer on the horizon: MCIWS rifle (and carbine, if any), if it manages to gate crash the party. Realistically speaking about half a decade away from production. To be fair to ARDE they started work on the rifle before any QRs were issued by the army, one of the reasons why this rifle procurement might get canned.

From Sept 2013:-

We are designing multi calibre 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62 for Infantry but there is no demand from the army

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... signer.htm
Good part, at least a whole gamut of accessories ranging from reflex sights, thermal sights, fire control computer for grenades etc will be available even for imported rifles domestically. They cost more that the actual rifle itself.

Lesser hope: Army choses rifle and carbine from the same family, ie ARX-160 or Galil, so that the logistics burden is reduced.

Other small arms procurement in the army:
New belt fed machine gun
New 9mm side arm
New anti-material rifle
New rifles to replace dragunov
New PDW to replace sterling carbine (Milaap/MSMC/JVPC under trials)

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Oct 2014 06:53

^^^

Sounds like a policy for reversing indigenous capability.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 04 Oct 2014 08:13

srai wrote:^^^

Sounds like a policy for reversing indigenous capability.

100% self inflicted, from all quarters. It's not just India, UK and France are going to replace SA-80 and Famas in a similar manner. The only difference is that we are only going for a part replacement, for now.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 09 Oct 2014 02:48

http://theweek.com/article/index/236550 ... paper-thin

Any experts here who can comment. Has any indigenous effort in India tried anything like this. Sounds like fully worth it. Our jawans can become supermen.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Oct 2014 21:47

should cas saab wear that type of hat with a small strap sticking to this lips?

is this brit tradition/gorkha afsar tradition?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 17 Oct 2014 22:36

Yeah there are many colonial traditions and attire that still permeate the armed forces. IMO, most of them should be done away with.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 17 Oct 2014 22:38

Deleted

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 17 Oct 2014 22:40

All three chiefs and PM+Def Minster look fighting fit! That itself is unbelievable.

Afraid of even thinking what the picture would have looked like if Congress had retained power.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Oct 2014 22:50

SaiK wrote: is this brit tradition/gorkha afsar tradition?

All Gorkha's wear hats in that manner including officers.

Most of the British army traditions pre-date the formation of RIA, from the various groups that EIC had recruited from.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Oct 2014 23:19

SaiK wrote:

should cas saab wear that type of hat with a small strap sticking to this lips?

is this brit tradition/gorkha afsar tradition?

http://www.thegurkhamuseum.co.uk/Resear ... kha_Hat/26

wig · Post by **wig** » 19 Oct 2014 08:45

Army’s combat vehicle BMP to get more powerful engine

The Indian Army’s infantry combat vehicle, BMP, which is deployed at key locations across the country, will soon be faster and better equipped to run on all terrains. Engines of the BMPs – abbreviation for the original Soviet/Russian name, Boyevaya Mashina Pekhoty — are being replaced with more powerful ones that will allow greater speed and longer endurance on all sorts of terrain. It will have automatic transmission with the ability to shut down the engines in case of a nuclear chemical attack.

The Army has several mechanised infantry units operating some 3,200 BMPs. The combat vehicle has tracks like a tank to run it and weighs just 13 tonnes. Like a tank, it can wade through water. Each one of it can carry about 18 soldiers cross country.

The Army had issued a request for proposal earlier this month to Indian engine-producing companies that can use their own expertise or their foreign collaborators to supply the engines.

At present, the BMPs run on UTD-20 engines of Soviet Union/Russian parentage which produce 285 hp and have manual transmission. The plan is to have “a new indigenous electronically controlled minimum 400 hp engine along with automatic transmission”, said the proposal.

The existing engine is inadequate for cross-country mobility, floatation and steep gradients. The new engine with greater power and modern technology aiding better thrust is expected to make BMPs more efficient.

The 512 Army Base Workshop, Kirkee, Pune will be the venue for fitting the new engines. The Army is looking for an engine that would start with ease in extremely cold high-altitude areas and in the desert heat where temperature can go up to 55°C.

The Army is also looking at speed in changing faulty engines – time is a scarce commodity in war. It has laid down the criteria for companies: the MTTR (mean time to replace) the engine should preferably be approximately five hours by a crew of four technicians.

For quicker service maintenance, a key factor will be easy accessibility to air, fuel, transmission and engine oil filters, injectors, cooling fan and coolant and oils.

Focus on ‘make in India’
•The Army has issued a request for proposal to Indian engine-producing companies that can use their own expertise or their foreign collaborators to supply the engines for nearly 3,200 BMPs (in pic)
•The plan is to have a new indigenous electronically controlled minimum 400 hp engine along with automatic transmission for cross-country mobility, floatation and steep gradients

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20141019/nation.htm#9

wig · Post by **wig** » 19 Oct 2014 08:46

Army needs 3,200 more officers over 7 years

As the Army is on an expansion curve, it needs 3,200 additional officers over the next seven years. These young men and, in some cases women, will be over and above the regular annual recruitment carried out annually through the Indian Military Academy, Dehradun, and the Officer Training Academies at Gaya and Chennai.

These young officers are needed to fill in the vacancies created by the ongoing force accretion of the Army by way of the upcoming Mountain Strike Corps, the two new mountain divisions and the increased numbers of helicopter pilots needed by the Army.

The requirement of having additional 3,200 officers in batches over the next seven years was discussed at the Army Commanders Conference that ended today at New Delhi, sources said.

These new raisings, or accretions as referred to in military parlance, are currently being manned by drawing officer and men from the existing regiments.

The Mountain Strike Corps will have at least 75,000 men with units littered all across the Himalayas. The two new Divisions —around 40,000 men — are also in their last stage of raising using the existing manpower. The Mountain Strike Corps will have more helicopters, hence pilots are needed.

The Army Commanders were also informed that a shortage of 7,989 officers existed, i.e. 17 per cent of the sanctioned strength. Led by Army Chief General Dalbir Singh Suhag, other participants at the conference were Vice Chief Lt Gen Philip Campose, all seven Army Commanders and senior functionaries posted at the headquarters here.

The Army is looking to increase its intake of Short Service Commission officers and make the service attractive for young men who can leave the force when they are between 40 and 42 years of age to be absorbed elsewhere.

In his address on culmination of the Conference, General Suhag said “measures planned to address the issue of shortage in officer cadre would fructify at the earliest”. He advised the top brass on Jammu & Kashmir to “maintain relentless pressure so that terrorists could not carry out any meaningful operations to interrupt the forthcoming elections”.

The conference was informed that almost all of the regional centres of the ECHS, the health scheme for veterans, are functioning. The Northern and Western Commands were praised by the Chief for their exemplary response to the flood disaster in Jammu and Kashmir which witnessed spontaneous mobilisation of Army resources, both manpower and equipment.

The conference also touched upon the issue of management of defence lands. Thousands of acres are under illegal occupation. Directions have been issued to carry out proper documentation in coordination with the state revenue departments and take timely legal recourse when getting land evicted from unauthorised occupation.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20141019/nation.htm#9

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Oct 2014 09:46

SaiK wrote: should cas saab wear that type of hat with a small strap sticking to this lips?

is this brit tradition/gorkha afsar tradition?

Its a tradition for some Gurkha regiments. There is a funny incident about that chin strap under the lip recounted in John Masters' book Road to Mandalay.