Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Peregrine » 19 Mar 2018 03:20

X Posted on the Corresponding Indian Navy and Indian Air Force Threads

Govt moves on integrated theatre commands; amends rules to bring three forces under single leadership

NEW DELHI: India has finally taken the first step towards eventually having integrated theatre commands, where all the manpower and assets of the Army, Navy and IAF are under the operational control of a single three-star general, by amending command and control rules for joint organisations and establishments.

Sources said the government has notified new “statutory rules and orders” to ensure an officer from any one service can now “exercise direct command” over personnel from the other two services, who are all governed by different acts and rules, in tri-service organisations.

The move has been implemented especially for the strategically-located Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC), which was established as India’s first theatre command in October 2001 but has largely failed to achieve its potential due to internecine turf wars among the three services, general politico-bureaucratic apathy, fund crunches and environmental concerns.

“It might seem a minor structural reform but represents a huge cultural, fundamental shift in the Indian military system, where the three services often pull in different directions. If the country is to have a chief of defence staff (CDS) and theatre commands in the years ahead, this tweaking of the Army, Navy and IAF rules is the first step towards it,” said a top source.

The naval commander-in-chief of the ANC can now directly control and discipline Army and IAF officers and other personnel under him, even as similar moves are afoot to eventually bring all land and assets under him in the archipelago. “It will serve as the template for theatre commands in the future.

Moreover, we need a fully unified approach in ANC due to the expanding Chinese threat in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR),” he added.

The NDA government had initially shown some drive for meaningful reforms in the country’s higher defence establishment in the shape of creating a CDS post and theatre commands to ensure much-needed synergy in training, logistics, planning, procurements and operations among the 1.5-million strong armed forces.

There was, for instance, even a proposal to create integrated theatre commands in the shape of one or two (one each for west and east of Nepal) for the northern border with China, a western command for Pakistan, a counterinsurgency operations command and one or two peninsular commands for the maritime borders.

But nothing concrete has come out of it. The armed forces currently have 17 single-service commands, with only two unified commands in ANC and the Strategic Forces Command to handle the country’s nuclear arsenal.

China, meanwhile, has reorganised its 2.3-million People’s Liberation Army into five theatre commands to crank up its offensive capabilities as well as establish better command-and-control structures.

Its western theatre command now handles the entire Line of Actual Control with India instead of the earlier Chengdu Military Region in the east and the Lanzhou Military Region towards the north, as was reported by TOI.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Mar 2018 01:37

Orignal quiz question

Quiz : There is a SF unit which has recently been in the news. Its nick name comes from its history - it was raised by converting an entire inf bn. The nickname refers to a weapon used by one of India's greatest hero who was a great king, statesman and visionary. Name the unit, the weapon and the parent infantry batalion.

ks_sachin wrote:21 para SF
Waghnakas
MLI


BANG ON Sachin. Well done.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 20 Mar 2018 05:32

Akshay, On Saturday was watching Adrishya on Netflix. It has an episode on Bahirji Naik and death of Afzal khan. I highly recommend watching that.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2018 11:08

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzal_Khan_(general)

reading the account, Shivaji seemed to have two SF level personal protection bodyguards as well. great job all around *clap clap*

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Mar 2018 11:38

ramana wrote:Akshay, On Saturday was watching Adrishya on Netflix. It has an episode on Bahirji Naik and death of Afzal khan. I highly recommend watching that.


I have already watched it many months ago :wink:

So intelligence had a big role to play in Op Afzal. Just see the situation now after Ajit Doval sir KC has been in charge for some time. We have had 3 very succesful ops that we have heard of - Surgical strikes Pak, Surgical strikes Myanmar, Pathakot response (even though there was treachery from the SP of Punjab Police). All happened because int was good. Shivaji also had great int as Adrishya points out.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Mar 2018 11:44

There is another video that I recommend very highly. Its a speech by the Sankaracharya ji of Puri organized by CVRDE. Brilliant. Kudos to CVRDE for this. He makes the point that our kings used to fight from the front and right up to very recently - even late 1800s when they (and many queens) fought against british. And now they sit in A/C rooms and give away the hard fought gains of the soldiers. Many other points. 'Vedic Battle Art'

Here it is :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzR63H6g0nU

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 21 Mar 2018 10:14

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1525406

Submit
Ministry of Defence
Indian Army Releases Book on Paramveer Chakra Awardees : Paramveer Parwane
Posted On: 20 MAR 2018 6:01PM by PIB Delhi




General Bipin Rawat, Chief of the Army Staff released a book on Paramveer Chakra Awardees - ‘Paramveer Parwane’ on 20 March 2018. The book illustrates the bravery of Paramveer Chakra Awardees from 1947 to 1965 and is written by Dr Prabhakiran Jain published by Medha Books. The book has eleven short stories, poems, and songs highlighting the history of the battles in which the brave soldiers sacrificed their lives and have shown the utmost courage & leadership while facing the enemy during War to protect the motherland.



The book is available in paperback & coffee table book format and its second part will be released shortly. Dr Prabhakiran Jain’s contribution to children’s literature has been recognized by many institutions across India. She is a three-time recipient of the Bal Sahitya Samman and Bal & Kishore Sahitya Samman awarded by the Hindi Academy and has 15 books to her credit. The writer has used simple and lucid language keeping young readers in mind.









Col Aman Anand

PRO (Army)





(Release ID: 1525406) Visitor Counter : 243


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 21 Mar 2018 11:10

Singha wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzal_Khan_(general)

reading the account, Shivaji seemed to have two SF level personal protection bodyguards as well. great job all around *clap clap*


Yes, Singha sir. This is one of the most well-known of the warrior king's personal exploits. Imbibed in all maharashtrians (and those who study in maharashtra), since childhood.

Great job "all around" indeed. It contains everything Intelligence, Counter-Intelligence, clear mission objectives and planning thereof, forcing the enemy on a disadvantageous terrain.. everything achieved with surgical precision.

One thing though.. this is from my childhood.. once when we kids discussed this event, one bright spark from our gang had said that the tactic was not perfect but nearly perfect. When the rest of us passionately protested and asked him what was the shortcoming he cooly said that the strategy was risky and it could have gone wrong easily. Khan could have been wearing armor too... he could have used poison etc etc. One less risky option would have been to send a doppleganger to do the deed instead. Even if the doppleganger failed the rest of the ambush party would have completed the task. The young king was more important to handle the likes of Adil Shah himself than his generals.

I remember that for some reason this kid would always whack the rest of us in Chess.. :)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Mar 2018 13:27

Manish_P wrote:
Singha wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzal_Khan_(general)

reading the account, Shivaji seemed to have two SF level personal protection bodyguards as well. great job all around *clap clap*


Yes, Singha sir. This is one of the most well-known of the warrior king's personal exploits. Imbibed in all maharashtrians (and those who study in maharashtra), since childhood.

Great job "all around" indeed. It contains everything Intelligence, Counter-Intelligence, clear mission objectives and planning thereof, forcing the enemy on a disadvantageous terrain.. everything achieved with surgical precision.

One thing though.. this is from my childhood.. once when we kids discussed this event, one bright spark from our gang had said that the tactic was not perfect but nearly perfect. When the rest of us passionately protested and asked him what was the shortcoming he cooly said that the strategy was risky and it could have gone wrong easily. Khan could have been wearing armor too... he could have used poison etc etc. One less risky option would have been to send a doppleganger to do the deed instead. Even if the doppleganger failed the rest of the ambush party would have completed the task. The young king was more important to handle the likes of Adil Shah himself than his generals.

I remember that for some reason this kid would always whack the rest of us in Chess.. :)


Manish, Shivaji is an Indian hero, a civilisational hero, not merely a Maharashtrian hero. Don’t tie him down in narrow post colonial boundaries. We have made big blunders post independence but atleast in BR we must not say such things. He was the first to give us the slogan of swarajya.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 21 Mar 2018 17:04

:shock:

I have not implied that, Sir.

All I said was since childhood, Marathi children grow up listening to various tales of Chattrapati Shivaji. These are passed down to them by grandparents, parents, the local school curriculum, the local plays/movies etc. Hence they are, and will be, more familiar with him rather than they would be with say Maharana Pratap or Ranjit Singh.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 21 Mar 2018 18:30

Has anyone seen the troubling but impassioned open letter to PM Modi, by the wonderful Major Gaurav Arya? Has it been posted here?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2018 01:59

I saw it. It's emotional and not grounded in reality.
He thinks a PM is an elected despot.
Thankfully not the case.

When writing to PM it should factual and zero emotion if he wants any implementation.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 22 Mar 2018 12:33

I was curious so read it. Some points are illuminating - I was not aware of the situation in Kashmir.

His points about the bureaucracy are unfortunatley correct. The steel frame has become a noose around the republic and unless it is radically reformed or abolished we will not achieve our development, governance and security goals. The PM has managed to navigate through this to some extent but if he does not become PM next time then god help India.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 22 Mar 2018 12:51

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Has anyone seen the troubling but impassioned open letter to PM Modi, by the wonderful Major Gaurav Arya? Has it been posted here?


This has been doing the rounds on the usual whatsapp groups, i debated posting this but since you asked, here you go.

Major Gaurav Arya writes an open letter to Prime Minister Narendra Modi

As I write these lines, I am fully aware that you may never read them. Also, I have nothing new to say. You have the nation’s intelligence services at your beck and call. The Director Intelligence Bureau briefs you every day. The Secretary R&AW awaits your command. The NSA is on speed dial. A phone call with the three Service Chiefs along with ISRO, and you have access to the kind of information daily, that all the news channels of India combined, will not have in a lifetime. At the snap of your fingers, India can launch a nuclear strike from the unknown depths of the oceans. Or, you can send flowers of peace to an adversary. What you do is your decision. But as an American author once said about India’s missile program… Agni does not mean Chrysanthemum. It means fire. Dr... Kalam knew exactly what he was building. So, what can a former junior army officer tell you that you don’t already know? Absolutely nothing. But it is this very insignificance of mine that makes this letter different. I see dark clouds above and difficult times ahead. I seek your intervention. To our East, Xi Jinping has probably been crowned Emperor of China, even if they still call him President. They say that he will rule till he breathes, with all the power of the Party, Politburo and the PLA concentrated in his hands. This simply means a far more aggressive China led by a man who, in real terms, is not accountable to anyone. While we are still figuring out how to respond, China’s encirclement of India is complete. From bases in South China Sea to the 99-year lease of the Hambantota Port, from PLA warships in Gwadar to the One Belt One Road (OBOR) initiative, we are hopelessly surrounded. To our West, we are dealing with a rouge nuclear-armed army that actually owns a nation of 200 million luckless souls. This army is not accountable to anyone. In 1999, it launched an attack on Kargil, without so much as informing its own Prime Minister.. In 1965, it did not deem it necessary to inform its own sister services, the Pakistan Air force and Pakistan Navy that it had launched Operation Gibralter and attacked India in Kashmir. Both the Pakistan Naval and Air Chiefs suspected something was wrong, but their worst fears came true when they heard Madam Noor Jehan singing patriotic songs on radio. That, in Pakistan, usually means war. Or a coup. Pakistan will supposedly issue, though some say it already has, tens of millions of long-term visas to Chinese nationals to settle in Balochistan for the China Pakistan Economic Corridor projects. According to the Federation of Pakistan Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FPCCI), by 2048 the majority population of Balochistan will be Chinese. Mandarin is already being taught to Pakistani children, not that they were learning anything useful earlier…and the Yuan will soon be legal tender in Pakistan. Pakistan will supposedly issue, though some say it already has, tens of millions of long-term visas to Chinese nationals to settle in Balochistan for the China Pakistan Economic Corridor projects. According to the Federation of Pakistan Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FPCCI), by 2048 the majority population of Balochistan will be Chinese. Mandarin is already being taught to Pakistani children, not that they were learning anything useful earlier…and the Yuan will soon be legal tender in Pakistan. Closer home, there is massive radicalization in Kashmir. From the pulpit of mosques to social media accounts, the Valley is turning Wahhabi with a fierceness not seen earlier. ISIS flags are waved at funerals and clashes. “Is ISIS really present in Kashmir?” a publisher asked me recently. “Islamic State is an idea, not a car dealership”, I tried to explain. There may or may not be physical manifestations of this vile idea, but to assume it does not exist just because you can’t see it, would be a gross miscalculation. If terrorists repose faith in an idea, it is real. Lets not look for overt signs. No one is going to put up neon boards in downtown Srinagar. Its in the speech in the mosque, the terrorist raising his index finger on video, the sign of “Tawheed” or oneness of God, the central monotheistic concept in Islam, it is in the flags draped over terrorists bodies in funerals. Seek, and you shall find. A good part of the battle for mind-space in Kashmir can be won if we have a narrative. Pakistan has a Kashmir narrative. Hurriyat has a Kashmir narrative. Terror organizations have a Kashmir narrative. All of them push their narrative everyday. And India, which has the most powerful Kashmir narrative based on the absolute truth, is reluctant to even tell its side of the story. So, in the absence of our truth, their lies flourish.. Kunan Poshpora. 700,000 troops in Kashmir. Genocide. Disappearances. Mass rapes. Unknown graves. Braid chopping. Flying saucers. Its like Sydney Sheldon has started writing in Kashmiri. It is important that an urgent narrative around Kashmir is created and pushed. There are a lot of fence sitters in Kashmir. They overtly support the terrorists, but privately hate them. Such is the cost of living in Kashmir. We must give these fence sitters a story; a narrative so powerful and true that it blows away everything in its path. This narrative exists. It is structured around the truth of the UN Resolutions of Kashmir, the truth about the Hurriyat, the truth about the lavish lifestyles of those who scream “azaadi”. Shopping malls, private jets, luxury hotel stays, foreign holidays in Spain and Malaysia…while the hapless population is mired in misery, Asiya Andrabi’s son is found in a 5 star resort in Bangkok, posing for photographs with Hulk Hogan. For the separatists, the blood of the Kashmiris is a credit card with no limit. Keep swiping. Keep killing.. Many Kashmiris support the Hurriyat not because of love or respect, but because Kashmiris have a long history of supporting whoever they perceive as the victor. Kashmiris see Hurriyat winning against the Indian state. They don’t care to know or acknowledge that the Hurriyat exists because the Indian Constitution allows space for dissent. Had Hurriyat tried in Pakistan, a minuscule percentage of what it does in Kashmir, Geelani would have disappeared and the Mirwaiz would have been found under some culvert in a very small gunny sack. In Kashmir there is a very fine, almost invisible, line between fear and respect. Some say there is no such line at all. We must understand these nuances. Geelani and his cohorts are doing a very fine balancing act. They are indispensible to the Pakistanis and have, somehow, convinced the Indian government that they speak for the Kashmiri people. That credibility must be damaged, not just by NIA raids but also in the heart of the Kashmiri people. This is not difficult to do; the Hurriyat’s credibility is based on falsehood. All we need is to be constant and consistent in cracking the mirror, with truth. Your greatest initiative to push India to industrial superstardom, “Make In India” is sputtering to a halt. And the people who are spiking it are your own bureaucrats. Not just the elite of the bureaucracy but the middle and lower level functionaries, too. The entire structure is rotten. They derive their power from stopping progress and denial of permission. They have created these rules and laws to buttress their arguments. Sir, if India has to progress, its bureaucracy must be cut to size. Before asking countries to invest in India, we must take a step back and take the surgeon’s knife to India’s “babudom”. Let a committee for reforms in bureaucracy, be constituted; a group with wide ranging powers. At the very top, we need technocrats. The miracle of the Delhi Metro happened because of E Sridharan. Had there been a senior bureaucrat in charge, the Delhi Metro would have gone the way of the Tejas LCA. Our issue is not whether we have meritorious people at the top, or not. The issue is that we have wrong people at the top. And they decide sensitive policy, without having a day’s exposure to the practical aspects of the issue. We have a veritable galaxy of “Paper Tigers” running the administration of India. When we put the right people at the top, magic happens. ISRO is a miracle because, scientists lead it. The day a senior bureaucrat is appointed Chairman of ISRO; you will receive a beautiful presentation on why ISRO can no longer launch satellites. It is these very bureaucrats who are killing Make In India, especially in defence manufacturing. May I submit the following process? Firstly, we must redefine the entire process for selection and purchase of any weapons system. Each item takes decades to order and then decades to reach the soldier. By that time, it is obsolete. Sir, you are aware that two-thirds of all Indian Army equipment is obsolete. Our artillery is 35 years old, simply because we did not order, manufacture or induct a single artillery gun for past 35 years. Secondly, no one is going to invent any weapons system just for us. All weapons systems that we are importing are being used in some armed force of the world. It should not take more than five years to import even something as sophisticated as a fighter jet. The Air Force knows what it wants. Let them know the budget. They will figure out what they want, test it and then make recommendations to the government. Ditto for other services.. But importing is not Make In India, right? Thirdly, execution is the key. Let us assume that Indian Army wants a new assault rifle. The army knows what it wants, because technical evaluation happens every day in the Indian Army. It’s not a one-time process for them. Let them shortlist 5 rifles, globally. Let them test all of them simultaneously. Why should rifle trials take a decade? It’s a rifle…just a collection of metal moving parts. In a few months, they should shortlist 3 rifles. Let the negotiations begin. Again, this must be completed in a stipulated time. The selected vendor should be partnered with an Indian company to start manufacturing in India. By the time factory starts production, 15% of rifles can be directly imported. Yes, there has been a greater push for transparency. There should a similar push for speed.. Sir, in the end, the key is not global weapons manufacturers making weapons in India. It is our investment in R&D. We must have an indigenous manufacturing base, which is the result of Indian minds and Indian sweat. The sooner we shut down our Ordnance Factories, the better it would be for our manufacturing and also the lives of our soldiers. Overpricing and pathetic quality are their hallmarks. In fact, some of their products are so bad that Nepal refuses to take them for free. Yes, Sir. Nepal refused to induct the 5.56 mm INSAS rifle. The rifle is so bad that even if given free, it is too expensive a deal. India is marching towards global super-power status. But we are like an athlete who runs with an iron ball chained to the feet. Everyone wants the athlete to run faster, but no one is looking at the iron ball. That iron ball is India’s bureaucracy. Unless we hack away at that ball and chain, we will keep dragging out feet. We will keep losing. The day the top employee and decision maker of every government department is an experienced and qualified subject mater specialist who is duly empowered, things will improve. For you, it’s just a snap of your fingers, but for India it will change everything, just like appointing Sridharan changed the face of Indian urban mobility.. We have many Sridharans, impatient to give wings to their dreams of India, but held back by the ball and chain. Dreams float on an impatient windA wind that wants to create a new orderAn order of strength and thundering of fire[3/17, 6:20 PM] Registrar: Dr. APJ Kalam, perhaps India’s greatest ever Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces wrote these lines. It is his dream that we must impatiently pursue, with vigor and renewed resolve.[3/17, 6:20 PM] Registrar:

Warm Respects & Regards

Major Gaurav Arya (Retd)

17th Battalion,

The Kumaon Regiment

Indian Army

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 Mar 2018 18:26


rkhanna
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby rkhanna » 22 Mar 2018 18:30



err is the picture in the article of a Pakistani soldier?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 22 Mar 2018 18:40

^Definitely. That helicopter too is Pakistani. Sure TFTA Army leadership is to blame for every mess in India including the budget. Abhijeet Iyer Mitra is right.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 22 Mar 2018 19:11

Vidur wrote:I was curious so read it. Some points are illuminating - I was not aware of the situation in Kashmir.

His points about the bureaucracy are unfortunatley correct. The steel frame has become a noose around the republic and unless it is radically reformed or abolished we will not achieve our development, governance and security goals. The PM has managed to navigate through this to some extent but if he does not become PM next time then god help India.


Wow. Vidur sir, salute to your moral courage and integrity for saying this. Coming from a family of many bureaucrats I have heard such sentiments are shared by some but expressed rarely. Unless you meet an Arun Bhatia for example. Takes a rare 'Akela Chalo' courage.

for everyone's information Vidurji is refering to Maj Arya's letter to PM.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2018 19:24

Vidur, I get your point of view.
I believe the bureaucracy is the permanent fixture of Delhi since the Sultanate. And even before of the many kingdoms and rajas. Its components might change but its role is the same. So abolishing it will bring it in some other form.

Even the British adopted our administration. This is brought out by Aparna Pande's book "From Chanakya to Modi"
Curzon's' buffer states theory is the old mandala theory. George Keenan was influenced by Curzon.

As a step to understand MoD Procurement process we had the process mapped and posted in the MoD thread.
Please take a look at it and suggest ways to cut down cycle time and even better do away with some of the steps.

As for Major Arya's letter and the angst in it, I too read it and had dismissed it as emotional writing. I have a saying.
"Every time you point a finger, three are pointed at yourself and the thumb is pointed upwards. Some call it God, Providence, Hand of Fate, or random events"


Ordnance factories are a national asset. They were created when in dire straits after 1962 war. We had just a few before that. Shutting them down is throwing the baby out.
As for the endless trials this forum has a 20 year track record of impossible, "bring me a rock" kind of requirements.

We have a long civilizational memory and have dealt with many threats and still retained our core values. Greeks, Romans, Persians, Egyptians were conquered and lost their civilization. we still retain major components of it.

As to Kashmir terrorists being handled. I recommend watching two Netflix Adrishya series especially the episode of JeevaSiddhi and the next to last on Black Thunder.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Mar 2018 20:26

One of the biggest problem I see is that our discourse is too focussed on fault finding or who dunnit rather than providing solutions, commensurate to the complexity of our nation and are based on collaborative approach. Any other nation would have celebrated arjun and tejas and thats what we should do

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 22 Mar 2018 21:50

ramana wrote:Vidur, I get your point of view.
I believe the bureaucracy is the permanent fixture of Delhi since the Sultanate. And even before of the many kingdoms and rajas. Its components might change but its role is the same. So abolishing it will bring it in some other form.

Even the British adopted our administration. This is brought out by Aparna Pande's book "From Chanakya to Modi"
Curzon's' buffer states theory is the old mandala theory. George Keenan was influenced by Curzon.

As a step to understand MoD Procurement process we had the process mapped and posted in the MoD thread.
Please take a look at it and suggest ways to cut down cycle time and even better do away with some of the steps.

As for Major Arya's letter and the angst in it, I too read it and had dismissed it as emotional writing. I have a saying.
"Every time you point a finger, three are pointed at yourself and the thumb is pointed upwards. Some call it God, Providence, Hand of Fate, or random events"


Ordnance factories are a national asset. They were created when in dire straits after 1962 war. We had just a few before that. Shutting them down is throwing the baby out.
As for the endless trials this forum has a 20 year track record of impossible, "bring me a rock" kind of requirements.

We have a long civilizational memory and have dealt with many threats and still retained our core values. Greeks, Romans, Persians, Egyptians were conquered and lost their civilization. we still retain major components of it.

As to Kashmir terrorists being handled. I recommend watching two Netflix Adrishya series especially the episode of JeevaSiddhi and the next to last on Black Thunder.


The Indian bureaucracy is not a monolith. There are different issues with different services. IAS and IPS have similar problems, Customs and Central Excise have other issues, IFS is a prisoner to a largely Nehruvian mindset and then there are the allied services (IOFS - Ordnance Factories, IDS - Defence, Defence Accounts,) and then state services called the Provincial Civil Services. There is also a Provincial Judicial Service - PJS. Almost all District Judges are from this service.

But there are some common issues that make them a liability for the nation and a crying need for radical reform or abolition :

- Selection Process - there is Zero correlation with the feats of memory and test taking ability rewarded by selection and the high commitment and integrity needed to discharge the duties.
- Cadre based life time tenure with no cross pollination from other services (armed forces for example), industry, academia etc. When an IAS officer is selected he spends a long time in training and then probation. The skills imparted are in law, public adminsitration structure, the superiority of the bureaucracy but not in people management, leadership and integrity. For most it is anyway a money making and power excercise but for the few with dreams in their eyes on selection, as the service years pass away idealism gets lost and cynicism or worse sets in. There is no fresh blood infused, no challenge of ideas, no mirror to check your integrity against.
- Too much power and discretion. Was it the intention of the constituent assembly that a bureaucrat has to be Secretary of every department ? Why is every action of public to be checked and assumed wrong as a starting hypothesis
- Constitutional provisions - these are provisions that guard the civil service from undue influence but have morphed into get out of jail free cards. IAS/IPS officers cannot be easily prosecuted under law leave aside that the prosecuting agency is lead by same people - IPS so a massive conflict of interest.Govt permission is needed to proceed. And who is proceeding with the case - your own fellow officer. Why would he or she jump through som many hoops to prosecute on of your own. So that's why there is almost no accountability.
-No accountability - No performance metrics, promotions are time bound, no incentive to deliver, no checks if you don't, no institutional ethos to make you deliver unlike in armed forces
- Political interference - what can I say. The recent Delhi events are obvious.

I agree that the functions cannot fully be abolished but the relevant civil services can be. Skills required for district administration and being Defence Secy or MD of a PSU or Finance Secretary are completely different and non convergent. There is no need for same 'service' to do it.

The Ordnance Factory function - arms manufacture in public sector is not dependent upon the IOFS - Indian Ordnance Factory Service or IAS Ordnance Factories.

The main problem Mr Ramana is that we are coflating function delivery with the service. The service can be removed or reformed nay must be removed or reformed to protect the function.

Some very simple suggestions...

Why not induct armed forces officers in mid career - solves their career problems and pyramid issues, gets you fresh blood who have a different perspective and most importantly leadership and character building based training. This used to be done earlier but has been stopped for a few years.

Why not hire for select ministries from the corporate sector

Why does IPS have to even exist ? If we can reform the police 50 % of bureuacracy issues will be resolved. This is the single most important issue outside of Defence Ministry.

I will make some other suggestions later when I have some time.
Last edited by Vidur on 22 Mar 2018 22:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 22 Mar 2018 22:06

My classmate an IRS officer was asked this question by an MES (Indian Defense Service of Engineers) officer.

''While IAS and IPS officers are paid (corruption) to deliver on something (sanction something, release prisoner/change evidence) you in Income Tax get paid anyway (cut)''. Just shows the mentality of the bureaucracy. When I became DM, the first question my relatives and colleagues asked is 'So what is the target...for making money'.

This problem has become too deep - a deep sense of entitlement, free corruption and incompetence. And being in the Service gives you a ticket to do that. IPS is the absolute worst. Followed by Central Excise and IAS. You can get a sense of it from how in the popular lexicon of UP , MP, Bihar every all India Service has been called IAS XYZ and IAS ABC - Indian Forest Service is IAS Forests !

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Mar 2018 22:55

I've known IPS officers of the highest integrity.Two kinsmen where heads of their state police, of course quite some time ago in the era when to hear of a corrupt IAS officer was unheard of.But in a very swift period the "iron frame" of India "corroded".Today the corrosion is so much that the frame looks like it will collapse.That's why the huge increase of red tape to hold it together!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 22 Mar 2018 23:08

The Economist has the Hamburger Index for relative buying power of different currencies. In Civil Service we have the dowry index - relative earning power of various professions !

Last year that for the first time IIM was bid higher than IAS/IPS - the bidder was a minister of the erstwhile UP government.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2018 23:10

Ok. Lets take these to the MoD thread....

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 22 Mar 2018 23:12

Vidur wrote:The Economist has the Hamburger Index for relative buying power of different currencies. In Civil Service we have the dowry index - relative earning power of various professions !

Last year that for the first time IIM was bid higher than IAS/IPS - the bidder was a minister of the erstwhile UP government.


Sir last question - where does the army figure in the dowry index ? And its a legitmately army question Ramana sir :wink:

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2018 23:14

You already are married!!!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 22 Mar 2018 23:16

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Vidur wrote:The Economist has the Hamburger Index for relative buying power of different currencies. In Civil Service we have the dowry index - relative earning power of various professions !

Last year that for the first time IIM was bid higher than IAS/IPS - the bidder was a minister of the erstwhile UP government.


Sir last question - where does the army figure in the dowry index ? And its a legitmately army question Ramana sir :wink:


At the bottom. No one wants their daughters to marry armed forces. No one on this forum here would either. I'm sorry but its a fact.

Good night.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 22 Mar 2018 23:17

ramana wrote:You already are married!!!


Sir always good to check market value.... :wink:

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 22 Mar 2018 23:22

Okay quiz time : There was one thing about his welcome that peeved the Major who lead one of the surgical strike teams. What was it ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2018 00:04

If you are referring to the Sept 2016 strikes (in revenge for the cowardly attack on the Uri camp), then it was alcohol.

The Major was peeved that everyone was giving him alcohol and nobody was giving him food. I read that in the book —> India’s Most Fearless by Shiv Aroor and Rahul Singh.

The Major was understandably famished and anyone would be after an operation of that magnitude. Food is the best comfort at that point and nothing comes close, not even alcohol.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2018 08:22

Vidur wrote:
At the bottom. No one wants their daughters to marry armed forces. No one on this forum here would either. I'm sorry but its a fact.

Good night.

:D This is a deeply fascinating sociology topic that would be right up my street. I am not going to address it on this thread because I guarantee that I will destroy the thread by going OT. The question itself is a sort of medical dilemma where a particular disease or abnormality is noticed - and from that point on - investigating that issue needs one to ask a particular set of questions . Some other time. Some other thread.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2018 08:31

Since Vidur-ji brought up the point, let us start one :lol: why not? I enjoy sociology topics. right up my alley as well.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 23 Mar 2018 11:47

Rakesh wrote:If you are referring to the Sept 2016 strikes (in revenge for the cowardly attack on the Uri camp), then it was alcohol.

The Major was peeved that everyone was giving him alcohol and nobody was giving him food. I read that in the book —> India’s Most Fearless by Shiv Aroor and Rahul Singh.

The Major was understandably famished and anyone would be after an operation of that magnitude. Food is the best comfort at that point and nothing comes close, not even alcohol.


Hahaha, yes Rakesh that is correct. He was enjoying the daru but he said in his mind 'are koi khana de do'.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 23 Mar 2018 11:50

Rakesh wrote:Since Vidur-ji brought up the point, let us start one :lol: why not? I enjoy sociology topics. right up my alley as well.


Okay we will start another thread if you and Shiv sir are genuinely interested in it. Rakesh lets you and I moderate it closely and we will let Shiv lead and diagnose.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2018 14:30

I don't think it is worth starting an entire new thread for this because - as I indicated in my post - I would ask a series of maybe 5-6 questions that need hard (sociological) data for answers before we can establish that the premise that armed forces people are
1. Really (data wise) unable to find partners
2. Specially singled out as having poor marriage prospects over and above other "groups"
3. That there are no other groups who suffer a similar poor reputation
4. If other such groups exist are there any common factors/differences

The answers to these questions would then lead to the "next level" where I would ask "If some people do find partners, what aided them" etc etc.

This should be a data driven discussion with comparisons to other groups because I can offhand name other groups who also claim (or really do experience) difficulty in finding partners. There is still more sociology and psychology beyond this but it can either become another love and marriage nukkad or a limited sociology academic paper. And because we are talking about India and Indians we have to bring in the subject of family arranged versus self arranged, varnas/family traditions etc. There are so many factors that come into play that empirical conclusions may or may not be valid unless supported by data. Let me end with a joke I heard from a nephew of mine who was studying to become an engineer in the IT sector more than a decade ago. The joke was "A doctor gets to marry Madhuri Dixit but guess what the Computer engineer got?" "Laloo's daughter"

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 23 Mar 2018 15:03

2010 dated
Army's 15 yr perspective plan for indigenisation"
being posted for records.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/documents/DOI-2.pdf

In last pages, projections are there up to 2024.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 23 Mar 2018 17:10

shiv wrote:I don't think it is worth starting an entire new thread for this because - as I indicated in my post - I would ask a series of maybe 5-6 questions that need hard (sociological) data for answers before we can establish that the premise that armed forces people are
1. Really (data wise) unable to find partners
2. Specially singled out as having poor marriage prospects over and above other "groups"
3. That there are no other groups who suffer a similar poor reputation
4. If other such groups exist are there any common factors/differences

The answers to these questions would then lead to the "next level" where I would ask "If some people do find partners, what aided them" etc etc.

This should be a data driven discussion with comparisons to other groups because I can offhand name other groups who also claim (or really do experience) difficulty in finding partners. There is still more sociology and psychology beyond this but it can either become another love and marriage nukkad or a limited sociology academic paper. And because we are talking about India and Indians we have to bring in the subject of family arranged versus self arranged, varnas/family traditions etc. There are so many factors that come into play that empirical conclusions may or may not be valid unless supported by data. Let me end with a joke I heard from a nephew of mine who was studying to become an engineer in the IT sector more than a decade ago. The joke was "A doctor gets to marry Madhuri Dixit but guess what the Computer engineer got?" "Laloo's daughter"


Yes, but need to find a home for this discussion. As you yourself said it might go wildly OT on this one. We can start a thread and lock it after you have your conclusions and we can post those. I am speaking to Rakesh. Will get back to you.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2018 18:20

Akshay-ji, pls send me email. I already am aware of one major stumbling block. But we cannot have this discussion here. So let us continue with the purpose of this thread.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 23 Mar 2018 19:30

check your pm.


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