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Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jamwal » 21 Jun 2017 23:23

Has anyone offered Phasers from Star Trek yet ? They have different settings like stun mode, lethal and a few others. No recoil but flash might be a sore point.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Mollick.R » 23 Jun 2017 16:48

NEW DELHI: India has given the go-ahead to private domestic companies to tie up with foreign vendors that have been banned for corrupt practices in the past to manufacture ammunition for the army.

This major policy shift will allow banned entities such as IMI, Singapore Technologies and Rheinmetall to join private companies as technology partners to get a slice of India’s lucrative ammunition market, which is among the largest in the world.

While private companies are now scrambling to tie up with foreign vendors to procure technology, an unusual clause inserted in each tender has raised eyebrows. Although the defence ministry is empowered to extract heavy penalties from foreign entities accused of wrongdoing in exchange for continuing to bid for Indian contracts, the clause will circumvent the ban.

“The bidder shall be free to enter into a transfer of technology agreement with a company that has been banned in past or is currently under ban for dealings with Govt of India as the Govt does not envisage dealing directly with such a company in this project,” the special clause says.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/private-companies-can-now-tie-up-with-banned-foreign-vendors-to-make-ammo-for-army/articleshow/59259416.cms

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sivab » 23 Jun 2017 23:39

https://twitter.com/Leopard212/status/8 ... 3679721472

Wandering Baba‏ @Leopard212

A skirmish has been reported on Indian side of Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet Tri junction (East of Chumbi Valley)
Chinese troops hit Indian bunkers.

This action by Chinese troops have led to Kailash Mansarovar Yatra via Nathu La being suspended.

Chinese destroyed recently repaired Indian bunkers, at Dokala, 14 days ago.

This was an innocuous statement from the Foreign Office, on the troubling situation as it exists in Sikkim.

Image

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sivab » 25 Jun 2017 02:06

https://twitter.com/Swamy39/status/878251770404716545

Subramanian Swamy‏Verified account @Swamy39

The Chinese army I.e., PLA is getting restive. So fasten your seatbelts folks




https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/878607408477519872

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618

Yup, there are reports of PLAA destroying bunkers in the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 7h7 hours ago

The Chinese seem to be getting jittery about their position in the Chumbi valley. They destroyed the Indian bunker in the Dokala area.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 7h7 hours ago
Replying to @SJha1618

Not only does the PLA want to offset its vulnerability in the Chumbi Valley they are also signalling towards the Siliguri Corridor



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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Ramesh » 03 Jul 2017 23:18


Rahul M
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 03 Jul 2017 23:49

err, why are you posting a 2 year old article by a certified windbag ??

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Ramesh » 04 Jul 2017 06:42

My bad. Rediff was showing it as new article.
Anyway, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. The issues raised are genuine.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2017 15:39


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jamwal » 04 Jul 2017 19:21

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... rds-chaos/

Too many sniper rifles, not enough snipers!
T Lt General H S Panag

In the Indian Army up to late 50s there used to be Sniper Section of 10 men, in each Infantry Battalion, that operated directly under the Commanding Officer. The weapon authorised was the Lee Enfield .303 No 4 Mark 1(T) Rifle considered one of the greatest sniper rifles and had earned a name for itself during the Second World War. A very tough Sniper Course was also run at the Infantry School upto l970. When we switched over to semi automatic 7.62 mm Rifle in the 60s, no replacement was found for the old sniper rifle. Both the sniper rifle and the sniper section just disappeared from the army for 30 years.
In the late early 90s the Dragunov SVDN Sniper Rifle with range of 1300 meters was introduced into the army. India has approximately 360 Infantry Battalions, 50 Assam Rifles Battalions and 62 Rashtriya Rifles Battalions ie a total 472 battalions. Each battalion is authorised 10
Sniper Rifles. Thus, the Indian Army has 4720 sniper rifles. There is no military trade of “sniper” but any soldier with limited training mans the sniper rifle. Generally two snipers are trained in each of the four rifle companies and two are part of the Ghatak Platoon. Sniper rifles are also authorised to SF units.
The Sniper Course was restarted but remains a poor cousin of the former course. The Indian Army’s strength is the regimental ethos and élan. The skill levels are average and assumed to be compensated by motivation and ethos. Adequate attention is not paid to selection, training and sustainment of specialists like the snipers. Indian Infantry does not follow the specialist trade system and a jack of all trades is just not good enough for specialist tasks.
The universal test of a sniper is to score a first shot “head shot” at 600 meters and first shot “body(chest) shot” at 1000 meters and that too after an indefinite wait in a hide. If a sniper can not pass this test he can not be called a sniper and remains a marksman or a sharp shooter. To the best of my knowledge no “sniper” of the Indian Army can pass this test. If there are a few exceptions they will only prove the rule.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 04 Jul 2017 19:30

^ Nice to see someone serving the kadak chai for a change .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2017 03:59

Lt. Gen. Panag?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 05 Jul 2017 09:34

The universal test of a sniper is to score a first shot “head shot” at 600 meters and first shot “body(chest) shot” at 1000 meters and that too after an indefinite wait in a hide. If a sniper can not pass this test he can not be called a sniper and remains a marksman or a sharp shooter. To the best of my knowledge no “sniper” of the Indian Army can pass this test. If there are a few exceptions they will only prove the rule.

Hope this is not true even after the IA having being in a COIN environment for almost 20 years now

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby rahulm » 05 Jul 2017 09:57

I suppose he is exempting our SF from his claims.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby SajeevJino » 05 Jul 2017 10:58

.

I know a colonel, who told us in a discussion they used Mauser SP 66 on Siachin fronts,

in above report Lt.Gen didn't mentioned about the procurement of Mausers

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Hari Seldon » 05 Jul 2017 13:35

Couldn't resist posting. Only.

Image

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 05 Jul 2017 16:58

Mauser or Lee Enfield it doesn't matter it is all about the shooter . Mauser SP 66 and its use is well known I mean for brownie points we even have the H&K PSG or MSg I guess the latter .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jul 2017 05:16

Centre authorises Army to make emergency purchases for a short, intense war
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 00695.html

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Surya » 13 Jul 2017 06:35

sum wrote:
The universal test of a sniper is to score a first shot “head shot” at 600 meters and first shot “body(chest) shot” at 1000 meters and that too after an indefinite wait in a hide. If a sniper can not pass this test he can not be called a sniper and remains a marksman or a sharp shooter. To the best of my knowledge no “sniper” of the Indian Army can pass this test. If there are a few exceptions they will only prove the rule.

Hope this is not true even after the IA having being in a COIN environment for almost 20 years now


:roll:

everything before Panag came in and after heleft is shamble

what worked was only when he wasinvolved

once you grasp this principle his articles areeasier to read :roll:

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby rkhanna » 13 Jul 2017 08:40

@surya

Without commenting on the man's politics or other views. I have had similar conversations with army veterans who have parroted similar views for a very long time.

Our Mod and military brass has had its head in the sand for a very long time. On a strategic level - our sniper capability is just one example. Lack of socom is another. Seeing infantry soldiers as strategic entities is not part of command DNA

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 13 Jul 2017 09:32

Blaming politicos and babudom for every thing is also not a right assessment ; to notify or designate a group of men for special training does not need any MOD approval the forces are autonomous enough in these matters . Issue is of institutional inertia i.e. my commanding officer works x-y and only did 'xyz' hum bhi wahi karenge . It is not as if we do not have marksmen now whether you call them marksmen or snipers or you wish to play that semantic then who stops one from coming up with a dedicated sniper training program ? It is not as if it requires some exotic facility which we do not have , yes we may lack good sniper rifles in enough numbers and that is where MOD comes into picture but question to be asked to everyone who whines and complains in this country is what the fck did they do to change things .

People who are in position of power and leadership have no right to whine that is for us laymen and sadakchaps to do , there have been enough examples of people in the system who got things done with the same crappy system I think PM alludes to this each and every time the issue of institutional intertia is brought up .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 13 Jul 2017 09:36

Lack of socom is another. Seeing infantry soldiers as strategic entities is not part of command DNA

Isnt this the exact same compaints Americans have since they are protesting the "elite" SEALS/Delta/xyz being used for "normal" operations targetting some small fry which isnt worth the effort

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Prasad » 13 Jul 2017 11:19

Nitin Gokhale tweeted yesterday that apart from cyber & space commands, we will be creating a spec ops division. While not a "command" per se, its aim is to 'synergise' the various spec ops groups we have. How it'll play out is a big ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 11:19

jamwal wrote:http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/shooting-straight/drift-towards-chaos/

Too many sniper rifles, not enough snipers!
T Lt General H S Panag

In the Indian Army up to late 50s there used to be Sniper Section of 10 men, in each Infantry Battalion, that operated directly under the Commanding Officer. The weapon authorised was the Lee Enfield .303 No 4 Mark 1(T) Rifle considered one of the greatest sniper rifles and had earned a name for itself during the Second World War. A very tough Sniper Course was also run at the Infantry School upto l970. When we switched over to semi automatic 7.62 mm Rifle in the 60s, no replacement was found for the old sniper rifle. Both the sniper rifle and the sniper section just disappeared from the army for 30 years.
In the late early 90s the Dragunov SVDN Sniper Rifle with range of 1300 meters was introduced into the army. India has approximately 360 Infantry Battalions, 50 Assam Rifles Battalions and 62 Rashtriya Rifles Battalions ie a total 472 battalions. Each battalion is authorised 10
Sniper Rifles. Thus, the Indian Army has 4720 sniper rifles. There is no military trade of “sniper” but any soldier with limited training mans the sniper rifle. Generally two snipers are trained in each of the four rifle companies and two are part of the Ghatak Platoon. Sniper rifles are also authorised to SF units.
The Sniper Course was restarted but remains a poor cousin of the former course. The Indian Army’s strength is the regimental ethos and élan. The skill levels are average and assumed to be compensated by motivation and ethos. Adequate attention is not paid to selection, training and sustainment of specialists like the snipers. Indian Infantry does not follow the specialist trade system and a jack of all trades is just not good enough for specialist tasks.
The universal test of a sniper is to score a first shot “head shot” at 600 meters and first shot “body(chest) shot” at 1000 meters and that too after an indefinite wait in a hide. If a sniper can not pass this test he can not be called a sniper and remains a marksman or a sharp shooter. To the best of my knowledge no “sniper” of the Indian Army can pass this test. If there are a few exceptions they will only prove the rule.



UTTER NONENSE in the last couple of paragraph.

Yes there is no sniper trade but there is no machine gunner or RL or bayonet trade either. Trades in the Indian army are technical - electrician, radio operator, driver, dozer operator, store keeper technical etc. Every soldier in the ENGRS has - trade. So every soldier in the engineers is first and foremost an infantry man then a Sapper ie can mine lay, mine breach etc and in addition has a trade. Why because it's necessary for the role. In the infantry it's not necessary to have trades. When you are in contact and fire and move sections switch between support ie give cover fire and assault. What would Panag have each a separate trade ???

Also don't forget that bayonet strength of an infantry battalion is quite low and each soldier has to be expert in all small arms. You can't have specialist mortar operators !!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 11:21

This is not Kadak chai. It's hashish.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 13 Jul 2017 11:25

Surya wrote:
sum wrote:Hope this is not true even after the IA having being in a COIN environment for almost 20 years now


:roll:

everything before Panag came in and after heleft is shamble

what worked was only when he wasinvolved

once you grasp this principle his articles areeasier to read :roll:


not to mention the aapi driven politics of both himself and his daughter. :evil:

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 11:29

sum wrote:
Lack of socom is another. Seeing infantry soldiers as strategic entities is not part of command DNA

Isnt this the exact same compaints Americans have since they are protesting the "elite" SEALS/Delta/xyz being used for "normal" operations targetting some small fry which isnt worth the effort


To your earlier point that despite having 20 years of CT ops experience you hope this is not true my question - And exactly when and on whom would you use a sniper in CT Ops especially in the valley. Can you give me a few scenarios ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 12:02

Just read some of his tweets and articles for the first time. Lots of bias and misinformation. Would exercise caution in reading him.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 13 Jul 2017 13:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:To your earlier point that despite having 20 years of CT ops experience you hope this is not true my question - And exactly when and on whom would you use a sniper in CT Ops especially in the valley. Can you give me a few scenarios ?

Would assume for all the ambushes laid out in the vast forests and during prolonged encounters when the pigs are holed up in places for long duration and give a fleeting glimpse of themselves from time to time?

If Gen Panag is to go by, the standards are very bad for even such basic sniping. Of course, this is his view and no idea how credible it is ( as pointed by others)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 13 Jul 2017 16:00

^^ He might be the father of PAAPi or anyone but he was a ex-general also.
Would not be right to colour everything based on ideologies since he had penned a topic related to the IA and not some general political scenario( where we could have then dismissed it)

If what he says is wrong and we are in better condition than listed, thats the best news possible. Else, it is a thing where it needs to be looked into and rectified ( if not done already)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 16:12

Sum, he is wrong as I have pointed out above. His professional judgement has been clouded by either ego or something worse. Re using snipers in CT OPs that makes very little sense and I just need 15 mins to explain why. Am on the move today and not getting time. But the moment I do, I will show you why.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 21:42

Snipers are usually used for hitting high value targets , for example officers in conventional war and terrorist leaders or masterminds in CT. Another role is to sap enemey morale by harrying them. This is usually done in guerilla warfare and helps to constrain enemy movement and increase logistic burden.

Some basics of sniper ops. 1st and very self evident you need to be good shot at long ranges and have adequate weapons. Typically you are looking at 500 m + say little over 1 km. Second, Stealth and surprise - the enemy should not know you are there and so camoflauge and surprise is very necessary and third and perhaps most important and most difficult to get right and train for the tactics - proper sighting, extreme patience to wait for the enemy.

In our context there are 3 main zones we can divide J&K Ops into. One LC - objective is to prevent infiltration and defend the LC; Two hinterland sa few KM behind the LC leading up to habitable areas towns and villages; and Three CASO ie Cordon and Search Operations in towns and villages.

Lets see how snipers can be used in each area/role :

1. LC ...yes snipers can be effective here if enemy is in range. Sniping does happen ocassionally from both sides and to my mind this can be explored further especially in the IB areas in Punjab. Not a game changer though.

2. Hinterland ....you gave the example of an ambush. The objective of an ambush in this role is to eleminate as many of the enemy as possible. So you lay ambushes at expected ingress points and vulnerable areas or based on int. When the first enemy is sighted you dont open fire, you let the first couple through , establish the lenght of the column, and only open fire when both the head and tail of the serpent is within sights. Then you dont snipe, you use heavy automatic fire to take out as many as possible. You don't want to alert the others so that they slip away. Ambush is also done at reasonably close quarters for theses reasons. You wnat to roll all of them up. Various ways of doing this but Snipers have no role to play.

3. CASO. Tricky one and perhaps the most difficult in my view because you have to be aware of danger from the public. And now stone pelters. SOP is to cordon the area off and then try to empty every house and then serach. Danger can come from anywhere. Only place a sniper can even be envisaged is if you know terrorists are holed up in a particular house. Even then you cannot bring into play several of the tenets of sniping I listed above...you have no surprise - the bugger is there and wont take his head out to give you a target, you dont have a sighting advantage as you are always always on ground and he is on top floor and you cant usually take positions in surrounding houses. Bahut hoha and human rights hota hai. Lastly a house will have a few wiondows and doors say 5-10 and one sniper can cover only one of them. You cant use 10 snipers to cover all 10 ! And ranges are very short - you dont really need a sniper just good marksmen and if well trained most of your troops should be able to do this. So snipers may have a role to play in movies but not in real life valley CASO

That brings us to the issue of training. Marksmanship is a basic for every soldier espeiclaly in the infantry and RR. If that is not upto the mark we are loosing our basic fibre in the indian armed focres - excellent gunnery and ek goli and ek dushman. I don't think thats happening but I have been very worried about us loosing firing ranges and training areas for a long time. I have posted on that many times over the years. Also the lack of time to train because of the huge pressures on the army. Whether this has finally translated into lack of training I don't know. But I doubt it because every solodier inducted in J&K goes through the Corps Battle School. Please read up on this ...there are many media links.

There are concerns (some I mentioned above and some others that I have posted many times on before) but not the ones listed in the above article. Lastly after reading this article I read his other articles and came across some of his twitter posts. They genuinely disgusted me. For example to Col Danvir Singh ex CO 9 Sikh LI he said 'who is this JCO masquerading as an officer'. Why because Panag was critcial of Maj Gogoi (of the jeep tying fame) and Col Singh called him on that. And this an ex Northern Army Commander....Just shows his heart is not in the right place.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 13 Jul 2017 21:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 21:49

I can think of some roles for snipers in the valley but they are the stuff of fantasy...taking out terrorist sympathisers in covert ops. But that would mean some respected netas in the valley and its a no no, human rights, etc etc etc.

Also urban sniping is very hard, you have to blend in in a hostile area.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby srai » 13 Jul 2017 21:58

^^^
We have heard about plenty of coalition sniper action in CT Ops recently in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. The IA's doctrine seems to be different.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Jul 2017 22:09

I am not really conversant with those ops but don't think they have to worry about sighting and taking over buildings. Also the definition of sniping could be very different....ie using standard rifles could be defined as sniping by them whereas the discussion here is in the context of pure sniping.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby schinnas » 13 Jul 2017 22:33

In Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan most of the ops happen on barren land without dense vegetation or cover of fog or very hilly terrain. So it is easy for snipers to spot jihadi abduls arriving from a distance and take them about before they can say eid mubarak anywhere near the compound. That is not the case for our CT/COIN operations in Kashmir or North East.

Where snipers may come in handy are in the plains along the IB with Pukiland or some parts of the LoC with China.

Disclaimer: This is just a conjecture. I am just an armchair expert here..Would defer to those in uniform to comment on these matters based on first hand experience.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nachiket » 13 Jul 2017 22:54

jamwal wrote:In the late early 90s the Dragunov SVDN Sniper Rifle with range of 1300 meters was introduced into the army.

The universal test of a sniper is to score a first shot “head shot” at 600 meters and first shot “body(chest) shot” at 1000 meters and that too after an indefinite wait in a hide. If a sniper can not pass this test he can not be called a sniper and remains a marksman or a sharp shooter. To the best of my knowledge no “sniper” of the Indian Army can pass this test. If there are a few exceptions they will only prove the rule.

Akshay Kapoor saab, you might know this better. Is the max effective range of the Dragunov really 1300m ? I find this quite difficult to believe considering that the Dragunov fires the 7.62x54mm round. Wherever I've looked on the net the effective range of the Dragunov is mentioned as around 800m.

Scoring a first shot on the chest every time at 1km range with a Dragunov would be quite a feat. Indian infantry battalions do not have access to higher caliber sniper rifles. So I don't understand what Gen. Panag is on about when he says "Too many Sniper rifles...not enough snipers".

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby brvarsh » 14 Jul 2017 00:26

As an anecdote, There was a time during Punjab problem when lightly trained VDC members became snipers with their .303s that if nothing else hurt the terrorist's moral the most. I am surprised how come Indian Army disbanded such a role in their regiments of course at a different scale? Point is no one does more damage to a defending unit as much as a bullet from an unknown source and the answer is we need to have dedicated soldiers trained in this role as soon as possible, if not already.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 14 Jul 2017 01:25

Yagnasri wrote:Panag is the father of Gul Panag the great PAAPi "lady". Right? Why are we discussing him?


Happy to see General Panag being proved an idiot by the way of an academic discussion, but if that is how you measure your citizens then the day is not far off when we will re-employ Stalin's methods and begin siberian bound witch hunts!!

I EXPECT TO SEE A QUALITATIVE REASONS behind your rant or accusation.
You are a Bharat Rakshak, ACT LIKE ONE !!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jul 2017 01:35

Indian Army deploys 2,500 soldiers in Doka La area to protect Bhutan
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=263129

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 14 Jul 2017 02:47

VDCs defending with .303 is not sniping. Sniping is a very offensive tactic and we really can't use it in the valley because of the reasons I explained. Another fundamental reason is that we can't be too offensive in the valley and open fire first in CASOs. It's usually always after challenge. So you loose surprise. Only area where you can open fire first is in ambushes in Hinterland.

Dragunov range does seem exaggerated in the article.

Guys IMHO this article doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I don't want to waste more time on it.


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