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Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 26 Jul 2017 21:37

^ Ration money allowance is different from Ration itself. Former is the reform latter is where pilfering happens.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 26 Jul 2017 21:50

The issue continues to be that the babus of the MoD simply have no accountability. Left unchecked by political power they'll run rampant. In a hypothetical loss in a war would a defence secretary ever be called to question? Would the DG, Acquisition? Or the ASs and JSs galore? Yet it is these men and women who most impact materiel and morale. Yet, they neither need offer any qualifications nor suffer any accountability.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 26 Jul 2017 22:15

Eventually we will get to ration-less direct allowance deposit model (for clothing it has already been in place for officers just because it does not come in DDM people cannot whine about it) ; the only justification which forces give for ration today is absolutely shoddy govt. supply chain. Today the stuff which comes to ration is a tad better as government has tried to remove middlemen by promoting local procurement however that also has inefficiencies , anyways this is a boring topic but the central point is very very relevant i.e. to keep forces lean and mean and well paid we will have to increase efficiency and that will comes from reforms a direct deposit system absolutely removes middlemen however if men find it hard to buy ration in peace postings then GOI will budge now but not for long .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Jul 2017 22:17

If it takes these kind of provocative statements to make transformational change, so be it.

Pakistani defence industrial base better than ours: Indian Army Vice Chief Lt. Gen. Sarath Chand
Lt. Gen. Sarath Chand, Vice Chief of Army Staff (VCOAS), said the ordnance factories have not been able to keep pace with changing technology while "there is no competition whatsoever" and it is "an unsuccessful method of supporting our defence requirements".

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Yayavar » 27 Jul 2017 01:05

negi wrote:Eventually we will get to ration-less direct allowance deposit model (for clothing it has already been in place for officers just because it does not come in DDM people cannot whine about it) ;


is there a clothing allowance for commissioned officers? I highly doubt it but as you say not in news...but still cant be completely unheard

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 27 Jul 2017 02:54

negi wrote:Eventually we will get to ration-less direct allowance deposit model (for clothing it has already been in place for officers just because it does not come in DDM people cannot whine about it) ; the only justification which forces give for ration today is absolutely shoddy govt. supply chain. Today the stuff which comes to ration is a tad better as government has tried to remove middlemen by promoting local procurement however that also has inefficiencies , anyways this is a boring topic but the central point is very very relevant i.e. to keep forces lean and mean and well paid we will have to increase efficiency and that will comes from reforms a direct deposit system absolutely removes middlemen however if men find it hard to buy ration in peace postings then GOI will budge now but not for long .

Ha! This is like that episode of Rahul Gandhi insisting that SwacchBharat doesn't work to an audience which insists that it does. Gen. Hasnain writes explaining what movement does and how much mvmt officers have; what notifications of field/peace are like and the practical issues of such and you carry on about some cloud cuckoo land tangent of improving efficiency. Impressive though. A strawman is built up, knocked down in due order and subject declared boring to boot. Done and dusted. Surgical. If only this business of war were as simple.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 27 Jul 2017 14:46

General is strong on sentiments but light on reason. His central line of argument was if officers are not provided ration they might take their cut from jawans' which is an inappropriate thing to say ; fact is pilfering of ration allowance used to happen at a large scale before reforms were introduced so General was only asking for status quo to be maintained because he only views things from his perspective ; he is no different from those complaining about inconveniences caused by demonetization or GST .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 27 Jul 2017 14:49

Yayavar wrote:is there a clothing allowance for commissioned officers? I highly doubt it but as you say not in news...but still cant be completely unheard
Officers do not get clothing like sailors/jawans do they have to get their uniform stitched on their own this has been in place for quite a long time ; point I was making is such things should not be even debated or complained about post 5th and 6th pay commission an officer in Indian military draws a pretty respectable sum which is a very very welcome decision and hence my point about cribbing about small things.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 28 Jul 2017 00:06

negi wrote:General is strong on sentiments but light on reason. His central line of argument was if officers are not provided ration they might take their cut from jawans' which is an inappropriate thing to say ; fact is pilfering of ration allowance used to happen at a large scale before reforms were introduced so General was only asking for status quo to be maintained because he only views things from his perspective ;
No, his central argument is that officers are moved around the country on a frequent basis and the conditions around the country can be extremely different making the actual availability of food more valuable.

You're stripped his argument of all context. The context being that if we deploy again, the MoD will take 6 months to declare it a field area. For this period the forward area villages are simply not capable of scaling to the demand and officers will need to eat into what food is available.

he is no different from those complaining about inconveniences caused by demonetization or GST .

Yeah, what does he know. The problem of feeding soldiers is clearly just an minor inconvenience.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 28 Jul 2017 14:17

^ I know what I am taking about the said move was only for peace postings ; which part of this country that is a peace posting has difficulty when it comes to buying ration ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 14:34

from Shiv aroor twitter
Image

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 28 Jul 2017 14:40

I don't understand one thing. If the officer is moving around with his unit, will he not be eating in mess/canteen?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 29 Jul 2017 06:47

negi wrote:^ I know what I am taking about the said move was only for peace postings ; which part of this country that is a peace posting has difficulty when it comes to buying ration ?

I'm not sure you even understand what's being suggested. You don't expect people to go to the subji mandi and hand over rice and dal to the cook during TD or exercise do you? The logistics will remain more or less the same other than complicating the crap out of it and having officers pay more for the shortfall you'll get.
And all this for what? Somehow in an infantry battalion of a thousand odd, removing the rations of 12 odd, while the rest continue, is going to give us marvelous efficiencies allowing us to become lean and mean. I have trouble believing even our generals and babus are that stupid. Although it's par for the course these days.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Jul 2017 11:16

Gyan wrote:I don't understand one thing. If the officer is moving around with his unit, will he not be eating in mess/canteen?

Not necessarily. A peace tenure means family would be there as well if offer is married.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 29 Jul 2017 12:36

Btw, are J&K and AFSPA areas of NE considered peace posting or operational posting ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 29 Jul 2017 13:40

Yayavar wrote:
negi wrote:Eventually we will get to ration-less direct allowance deposit model (for clothing it has already been in place for officers just because it does not come in DDM people cannot whine about it) ;


is there a clothing allowance for commissioned officers? I highly doubt it but as you say not in news...but still cant be completely unheard


IIRC, a small payment is made once in 7 years.

usually uniforms are replaced at personal cost 4/5 times during that time frame.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 29 Jul 2017 14:56

IN and IAF run a lean ship there are lot of differences between them and the IA.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gaur » 29 Jul 2017 16:29

srin wrote:Btw, are J&K and AFSPA areas of NE considered peace posting or operational posting ?

Field Postings. Even relatively peaceful areas like Guwahati is considered as field posting.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya G » 30 Jul 2017 14:51

All students of CI ops should know how IA setup the RR.

Recently French Army was complemented for its force structure in Mali. In many ways similar to what IA accomplished in RR decades ago. I wont be surprised if French Army had adopted IA practices from knowledge thanks to officer exchange.

https://swarajyamag.com/amp/story/defen ... experiment

...

A look at a typical RR unit’s organisation will explain this little better to a layman. One of the high achieving units, 36 RR, is organised with a little over 50 per cent manpower from The Garhwal Rifles, 30 per cent from the Artillery and rest of the elements coming from Engineers (one Engineer platoon), Signals (a communication platoon), EME (one Field Repair Increment – FRI), ASC (one Mechanical Transport Platoon), Ordnance (storemen) and AMC personnel. The total manpower comes to about 1,200 all ranks (against 840 of an Infantry unit) but the capability to have six RR companies is a definite plus.

This affords an ideal six point deployment i.e. occupation of six company operating bases (COBs) with one of the companies being co-located with the battalion HQ. The logistics is kept to the bare minimum with specialists available in each field thus obviating any training of general duties personnel in specialist fields involving logistics. The Engineers complement is a major asset because it can be employed for anti-Improvised Explosive Device (IED) role, bomb disposal, demolition tasks in CT operations and very importantly for electrification, construction of habitat and maintenance tasks. Similar is the case with Signals.

In many ways an RR represents a battalion group which can be reorganised for tailor made tasks because of the inherent flexibility. It can latch on to any logistics node or specialist logistics establishment for its logistics needs and is completely self-contained in transport.
...

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2017 15:07

negi wrote:IN and IAF run a lean ship there are lot of differences between them and the IA.


The differences are mostly environment dictated and specific to the role.

Allowances and facilities are not discriminatory but its more of a "Your mileage may vary" sort of thing.

IN officers posted for operations in the siachen area are treated at par in all respects with equivalent army personnel and the same is true with the IAF, I would imagine.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 30 Jul 2017 15:13

You are right Chetak ji

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 30 Jul 2017 16:02

I do not wish to prolong this topic ; point which I was trying to make is very very simple fundamentally any system that relies on material being transported to men versus letting them buy it in lieu of allowances will always have leaks and prone to corruption . That is not an opinion and proved in how LPG , Kerosense and other forms of commodities were being handled by PDS . Even today CSD procurements are different in the sense that they now procure from local suppliers that has addressed lot of quality issues but still it has leakages , CSD is yet to on board the GSTN that itself is another example of why system needs to be decentralized.

Siachin example does not tell a true picture ; when I said IN and IAF are different and run a lean ship I said that for a reason IN and IAF do not employ men in uniform for non essential chores they have outsourced much of their non essential needs , IA as an institution is too large and labor intensive hence it has usual inefficiencies that come with it , institutional inertia and usual sensitivity around matter further slow down any talk of reforms.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2017 16:14

negi wrote:I do not wish to prolong this topic ; point which I was trying to make is very very simple fundamentally any system that relies on material being transported to men versus letting them buy it in lieu of allowances will always have leaks and prone to corruption . That is not an opinion and proved in how LPG , Kerosense and other forms of commodities were being handled by PDS . Even today CSD procurements are different in the sense that they now procure from local suppliers that has addressed lot of quality issues but still it has leakages , CSD is yet to on board the GSTN that itself is another example of why system needs to be decentralized.

Siachin example does not tell a true picture ; when I said IN and IAF are different and run a lean ship I said that for a reason IN and IAF do not employ men in uniform for non essential chores they have outsourced much of their non essential needs , IA as an institution is too large and labor intensive hence it has usual inefficiencies that come with it , institutional inertia and usual sensitivity around matter further slow down any talk of reforms.


A major portion of the food supplies of the IN is sourced from the ASC. A few items like fresh vegetables and meat are sourced locally from contractors. The overwhelming bulk of the manpower handling these supplies and the associated infrastructure in the IN is uniformed with just the menial and lowest level support staff being non-uniformed.

INCS, the IN version of the CSD has always been IN run and managed. There may be some common sourcing from major contractors/manufacturers but it's always done on specific INCS contracts.

As far as GST is concerned, the forces are getting there and they should be ready in a week or two, if not already prepared. Shelves were completely empty for the past month or more as all non GST stock was fully withdrawn.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ASPuar » 30 Jul 2017 23:37

Just checking in. :)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2017 00:32

The Indian Army they know nothing about
https://swarajyamag.com/blogs/the-india ... hing-about

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 01 Aug 2017 02:40

negi wrote:I do not wish to prolong this topic ; point which I was trying to make is very very simple fundamentally any system that relies on material being transported to men versus letting them buy it in lieu of allowances will always have leaks and prone to corruption . That is not an opinion and proved in how LPG , Kerosense and other forms of commodities were being handled by PDS .

So in an inf. bn., the argument being made is that of the thousand odd people only the rations of these 10 odd people is the cause of this inefficiency? The continuing rations of the other 990 odd are not subject to the same issues is it? I'm half worried that with this particular political-bureaucratic establishment, this argument itself will be used as a reason to cut everyone's rations.

Economies of scale would dictate that buying things for a thousand people is actually enormously more cost effective that it is to buy for 1 individual or 10. This is especially true of things that are not directly "food" like spices. Were the govt. to pay the actual cost of food to an individual instead of dividing up the total cost by number, it'll end up costing the exchequer more.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby AdityaM » 02 Aug 2017 12:03

A news like this sends shivers down ones spine.

What happens to Indian ammunition depots which are open air, if enemy does this at the start of hostilities

A Single Drone Blows Up A $1 Billion Ammunition Depot – Gigantic Chain Reaction Explosions

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Karthik S » 02 Aug 2017 12:12

Why shivering saar? Ammunition depots, fuel depots, runways, dams, missile sites etc are the first things that get hit during opening hours of a war. Remember operation trident and python of Indian navy? How few of the old Styx missiles set karachi fuel tanks on fire, causing them similar loss.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby AdityaM » 02 Aug 2017 12:17

No matter what perimeter security is deployed.
A small drone carrying a small grenade can cause a big loss

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 02 Aug 2017 12:46

I agree with AdityaM

Ammunition depots being targeted during the opening hours of a war is true, but they can be done even before the declaration of war.. at intervals pattern been cleverly camoflaged to appear as accidents

And we have enemies not just across the border but within

And it is going to be an increasing headache with the proliferation of cheap smaller UAVs imported from China as as hobby / toy items

BTW The goverment of india had announced a draft policy for UAVs - link

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby schinnas » 02 Aug 2017 12:59

Why not put ammunition depots in extra large, fortified underground bunkers? Also it seems it is better to have a cluster of smaller depots than one large depot to contain impact of any accidents. If planned well, it needed not result in too much of increased overhead but will offer a much better risk-reward scenario.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Marten » 02 Aug 2017 13:39

ASPuar wrote:Just checking in. :)

Welcome back Sir! Waiting for you to weigh in on the thread. :)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chola » 02 Aug 2017 14:32

Say, how are our tanks doing in the Russkie army games? Arjuns, T-90s? What are we using? Obviously the Russians gonna cheat so they have to be number one but if using our tanks we should finish second or third depending if the chini tank's wheels fall off enough times.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 02 Aug 2017 14:39

i dont see any evidence of a drone dropping a grenade did it. its a large facility with underground concrete bunkers. a drone even with hellfires would find it tough to make an impact unless piles of ammo in open. also mil grade explosives can burn but not explode. they are designed that way such that detonators are needed, for safe handling and storage.


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 02 Aug 2017 15:39

Singha sir, the ammunition burn would also be a huge loss in itself wouldn't it. The explosions might be of secondary type (like fuel, gas cylinders, older style ammo)

The fire which happened at Pulgaon in 2016 have reports like

The intensity of the fire was so high that people in the villages around the depot were woken up to a loud noise. Window panes and tiled-roofs of houses in the villages were shattered. Residents said they felt as if they were being rattled by an earthquake. They said the raging fire lit up the night sky. "The utensils in our house were thrown off the shelves," said local resident Pravin Savarkar.


Link

and this older article from 1988

Stored ammunition explodes in Jabalpur

The spark at 4.10 p.m. on March 23 set off a fire in the Central Ordnance Depot (COD) and led to explosions that rocked the city for three days.

A railway line runs parallel to the magazines, and ammunition to be moved is kept on covered platforms. It was near one of these platforms that a spark was noticed. Considerable ammunition lying on the platforms-COD workers had been on strike for nine days - only worsened matters. The fire spread here and by evening, following several explosions, flames had engulfed magazine Nos. 19 and 20.


Incidentally in both of the above incidents, seperated by decades, the common thread mentioned is: dry wild grass around the depots was not cut by the relevant authorities and it helped in the quick spread of fire.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 03 Aug 2017 22:23

MODI’S BLIND SPOT By PG Kamath

‘The Government at a Glance; 2017 OECD Report’ has commended the Indian Government for having the maximum confidence of its people. India towers over all other nations with a whopping 73% of us reposing our faith and trust in the PM Modi led; NDA Government. UK, Japan and US are way behind with 41%, 36% and 30% respectively. Canada led by the young and dynamic Prime Minister Trudeau with 62%; stands second. A part of credit for Modi’s achievements should certainly go to UPA, as it had brought the country to its nadir and abject despair by endless scams that it could not have gone further down. It was at its wits end as to whom to prosecute? To be fair to Senorita and Raga, they are not leaders, who would let the foot soldiers of the party to do the dirty job, while they themselves remain aloof and keep their hands clean: Far from it; they have led from the front and prima facie are the main accused along with other conspirators in the cheating and misappropriating assets worth ₹ 2000 crores in the National Herald case. If they had to actually start prosecution there would be no one left in the government; other than PM Maun-vrat Singh, who also would eventually go to jail for silently abetting all the scams behind the smoke screen of ‘coalition politics’. The entire nation was craving for a change; or for that matter any change? Anyone, who followed, even if he was a bungling moron would have looked like King Solomon. However, PM Modi, is no moron; he is intelligent with matching personality and oratorical skill and indeed is a true nationalist. He wears sincerity on his face and exudes conviction to strike rapport with world leaders to pursue our national interests. He does not have a son-in-law, who need police protection or DLF lands at rock bottom rates in Haryana or prime bungalows in Shimla. He also does not need to start a company with the first two letters of his father’s name and second two letters of his mother’s name like ‘Lara’ (Ms Lara Automobiles) in Bihar? He also does not have to take permission from FIPB (Foreign Investment Promotion Board) to bring ₹ 4.6 crores as investment for INX Multimedia and then bring in ₹ 305 crores; nearly seventy times more than the sanctioned amount. Sad but true that he also does not have a brother-in- law to huddle with the Chinese ambassador! His ministers have also been kept under tight leash and have not been able to earn the spoils of their offices. Logically; as 2G had made ₹ 170,000 crore scam money, he had all the opportunity to make a compatible amount in 4G. The last October auction for 4G spectrum, the government earned 65,789 crores. I am sure the former ministers of UPA are despairing at the lost opportunity and would have been ready consultants for the 4G scam; if there was one? In spite of the braying opposition, who make so much of noise for Rohith Vemula and Akhlaq, but make no mention of Basirhat, Nadia and Dhulagarh, the country still reposes its confidence in him.

All communal clashes are sad and need to be abhorred and immediate preventive measures to be put in place. If another clash happens, the DC and SP be held accountable and punished for dereliction of duty and abetting communal violence. If the Overlords in the Supreme Court can order that all killings in areas declared ‘Disturbed’ should have mandatory FIRs against security personnel; be it that they have killed a heavily armed terrorists, then why can’t the same Supreme Court lodge FIRs against the DC and SP for a communal clash in their area of jurisdiction? Not acting as per law and dereliction of duties can be punished under Sec 166 IPC. There are provisions that should be applied as most SHOs get an air of impending communal violence and do nothing about it till they gets political directions. The SP and DC in most cases await the political signals, before exercising their powers as per law. Once the mob that was incensed has vent its wrath on the most hapless victims then the police will come on the scene in line with its celluloid image. Mr Prime Minister: it is high time you wield your stick on the bureaucrats, who assume authority with no accountability.

Just to remind the Prime Minister; remember the bureaucrats from home ministry, who were gallivanting at the hill station of Murree at Pakistan’s expense, when Taj Hotel was burning and exploding on 26/11. You can trust our ‘run of the mill’ bureaucrats to gorge themselves, wherever free carrots are hanging, be it; that it is of our arch enemy. Pakistan knew of their propensity for free crumbs and morsels; hence they cleverly manipulated to extend the talks from 25 to 26 Nov 2011 and sent them to Murree, where the mobile network was not available. Due to their absence, the decision making at the Home Ministry was delayed enabling the terrorists uninterrupted time in their killing spree. Indeed, the bureaucrats of the home ministry including the Home Secretary answered a call beyond their duty at Murree: Not to forget, in service to the nation?

Mr Prime Minister! No doubt; you are fully involved and committed in almost all the fields of national importance and has brought in changes in multiple spheres. I also can imagine how you must have tackled the ‘deep state’ in bureaucracy that resists all changes and forces the country into a state of atrophy. In my last article, I had bought to light your failed J&K policies; in this article I want to bring to light your blind spot on defence policies and your derisive disposition towards the morale of serving soldiers and veterans. In your manifesto you had promised ‘One rank one pension’, National War Memorial, Veteran’s Commission and a greater say for the armed forces in the decision making among other things.

Your partial implementation of ‘OROP’ has fueled discontent among the service men and veterans. Your absolute neglect of the anomalies of the 4th, 5th and 6th Pay commission has shown that you really do not care? The marginalisation of the Armed Forces in the 7th Pay Commission and lowering them at par with Central Reserve Police Forces, shows that you do not even have the basic knowledge of the Constitution of India, as The Armed Forces Officers are above ‘Group A’ officers as per Article 310 of our Constitution. They are the first mention in the article. You also do not have the rudimentary knowledge on primary and secondary roles of the Armed Forces, hence you are silently accepting the unconstitutional equivalence meted out to them in the 7th CPC. Your stopping of rations for the officers that was in vogue since 1983 and giving them a paltry ₹ 96 per day that is taxable reducing the net amount below the daily food allowance of convicts in civil jail in NCR and Northeast India has caused uncalled for ire. It only shows your lack of concern towards the officers of the Armed Forces. Your instructions reducing the turnover of CSD canteens by half in the guise of stopping its misuse only shows your indifferent attitude towards soldiers, who are the last bastion of the country. Mr PM; the digitised canteen cards have been given to all servicemen and veterans; how is it possible to misuse the canteen facilities, when you have laid down the monetary limit to each rank? Please tell your Defence Minister not to nod his head for everything that the minions around him blabber. He needs to discuss it with concerned general officers of the army, navy and air force to get a correct picture. I don’t blame him as he is your part-time defence minister.

Mr PM; just to apprise you of the Chairman of 7th CPC bore a grudge against the Armed Forces for not getting a Type VII bungalow in Delhi from their quota as the Chairman of AFT in Delhi. The Chairman writes that he recommended the continuation of NFU to the ‘Group A’ officers in 6th CPC as it was already implemented for the last 10 years. The same learned Justice does not have any qualms in recommending stoppage of rations for the officers of the Armed Forces in the peace tenures that was in vogue for 33 years? Look at the double standard of the Justice; who is charged by the nation to do justice to all of us? The sanctimony is sinister as in the ‘Foreword’ he quotes Gita and Arthasashtra to show nobility in his intent. He further pontificates that “It is necessary to follow ‘Dharma’ in all walks of human life”. One wonders how a ‘National Commission’ can be pachydermatous and duplicitous to recommend such contradictions. The final 7th CPC report as such removes all doubts.

In reorganisation of the MOD and appointing a CDF, your reluctant Defence Minister cried wolf so many times that it has lost its relevance and we sincerely feel you are not up to it. Just to remind you; have you instructed your NSA or the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff to formulate the ‘National Security Doctrine’ so that the political directions for the two and half front war is in place and the armed forces have a document to work and build their capacities? It really appears you are in your trance as you have not comprehended the implications of a two and half front war. Prime Ministers of the past have got away with their ignorance except PM Nehru, who paid for his lack of strategic vision and died as a broken man with tattered pride and shattered will in a year and half after the Chinese invasion. Indira Gandhi listened to her Chiefs and won a strategic victory for the country and changed the map of South Asia. She incorporated Sikkim and Bangladesh was created as she was willing to listen to her chiefs though during negotiations she frittered away her victory to a smooth talking Bhutto at Shimla. I suggest you take a page or two from your friends in White house, Moscow or even at Beijing to learn how to manage Armed forces and put together your strategic vision that should guide the country to build our economic and military capacities.

First and foremost; you do not have a full time defence minister. The one, whom you appointed soon after your government formation; who is also holding the appointment now is a ‘part time defence minister’. In between you foisted on the armed forces a reluctant defence minister; who gave such a loud sigh of relief on being relieved, that it reverberated across the whole South Block: You have definitely heard it! It also echoed in Goa. Look at the irony; Mr Prime Minister; with the country facing threat from two and half fronts, with almost entire length of border under dispute, with our enemies laying claim to two of our states; J&K and Arunachal Pradesh; still you feel that we can do with a part time defence minister? Do you or your NSA, really visualise how the two and half front threat to the country emerge and the contingencies both strategic and operational the country would have to face? How do you think the threats manifests on ground in all sectors?

Kudos; to you on ‘Dokalam standoff’ it shows your convictions and sagacity. Please take it seriously; the Chinese would not back out as they have staked the reputation of Communist Party of China in the standoff. Even if they back out for the time being the long term threat remains. Their foreign minister in Bangkok has made a clear statement that Indian officials have agreed that they have entered the Chinese territory. Xi Jinping addressing the military Parade on 30 Jul 2017 on the occasion of 90th Anniversary of PLA at Zhurihe in Inner Mongolia said that PLA is capable of defeating any invading enemies and protect the country’s sovereignty. I am sure you are being apprised of these statements; obviously they are focused towards creating a world opinion in favour of China. Something is definitely brewing and all our surveillance resources need to be harnessed to gauge the intention of the Chinese on land, air and from sea and pre-empt it. Diplomatic arm twisting is also probably on the cards and economic handle is being explored. Please also note the takeover of Hambantota Port last week from Sri Lanka.

Please also listen to your Chiefs as to what is the best way to face Chinese? Strength deters war and weakness invites it. The Army Chief must have made a press statement that we are prepared for a two and half front war, so that you are at ease with the public; but it is high time you ask him the contingencies in case the conflict spills over to other sectors. Just last month the Air Chief has flagged the shortages in airpower for a two front war. Have a direct talk to all the three service chiefs on their operational concerns. Do not leave it to the part time Defence Minister or the clueless Ministry to handle it. On 25 Jul 2017, your part time Defence minister responds in the Rajya Sabha that the armed forces are “reasonably and sufficiently equipped”. Just look at the words at play; the master of prevarication is at his ‘best’. Couple of days later he make a statement in the Lok Sabha that the Armed Forces were fully equipped to face any contingency. Just see how ‘reasonably and sufficiently’ has been replaced with ‘fully’? Just do not believe him: You need to put your ears to the ground and get a direct feedback before it is too late! Remember the words of Fd Mshl Manekshaw: “I wonder whether those who have been put in charge of the defence of the country can distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, although a great many resemble the latter”.

I don’t know but I hope you have given clear cut political directions to the Armed Forces on the Dokalam Standoff? I also don’t know whether we have moved adequate troops and fire power on either flanks of Chumbi Valley both on the in Sikkim and in Bhutan. It would certainly become a ‘no-go’ situation to the Chinese in the Chumbi Valley. Please take care that China does not outflank us from Northern Sikkim or in connivance with Nepal open the Taplejung axis? See the situation in case of air warfare is waged by the Chinese to neutralise our concentrations with or without a follow up land offensive. His vassal; Pakistan would also needle us in J&K. China would also give arms and ammunition to Pakistan, for spiking terrorist activities in J&K besides activating her troop movement in Depsang bulge and Chumar. She would also airlift troops at the seven airfields that she has constructed in Tibet Autonomous Region to mobilise troops in quick time and open up new points of conflicts along the border. She would also move troops for acclimatisation to Northern Tibet for a fast build up. She would also give impetus to insurgency movements in the North East India and also spur the Gurkha agitation. Keep the Tibetan Card handy and do not forget to play it well. The situation in Tibet is incendiary and it only needs some concerted effort to fulminate it. Be in touch with the East Turkmenistan Liberation Front (ETLF) fighting for independence in the Xinjiang Province that is just adjacent to Tibet; rather we have a direct access to Xinjiang through Karakoram Pass. Resources can be funneled into Sinkiang and Tibet from our over 3000 KMs of our borders and also from Afghanistan, CAR, and Mongolia. Keep the options open and make preparations. If Chinese gauge our intent; so much the better: Sometimes it is better to reveal our intent in subtle way to pre-empt an all-out war. Please note it is the political will that builds the military capacity.

Overall no doubt you are doing well! You are heads and shoulders above all the Prime Ministers, we have had in the past. Even to imagine anyone else in the country, who could replace you would sound hollow and ludicrous if not outright preposterous? However; you certainly need to overcome your ‘Blind Spot’. Take care of the morale of the Armed Forces to etch your name in the history. Reorganise the Ministry of Defence (MOD), appoint a Chief of Defence Forces, and include him in the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). Streamline the weapon and equipment procurement procedure, make the DRDO accountable to the three services, integrate the MOD with service officers and make them responsible and accountable for the deficiency in the armed forces. They should act as facilitators and not controllers. Formulate a “National Security Doctrine’ and integrate it with ‘National Nuclear Doctrine’. Expedite the construction of infrastructure on the Chinese borders. Have regular meeting with CCS with the three service chiefs once a month till the Dokalam Standoff ends: Later on you can meet them once in a quarter. Appoint a full time defence minister as defence is too serious a thing to be left to bureaucratic indifference or to a Part time Defence Minister, who can at best perfunctorily take care of it as a step child? Most intelligent visions are marred by ‘blind spots’ and it is time to get rid of them both in you and in your government. A lamp always has a shadow under it!

(The writer is a retired army officer

Modi's Blind Spot - Lt Gen P G Kamath

Karan M
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 04 Aug 2017 00:04

Great article. The MOD chalta hain culture needs to change.

negi
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 05 Aug 2017 15:36

^That article is horseshit

"
Your partial implementation of ‘OROP’ has fueled discontent among the service men and veterans. Your absolute neglect of the anomalies of the 4th, 5th and 6th Pay commission has shown that you really do not care? The marginalisation of the Armed Forces in the 7th Pay Commission and lowering them at par with Central Reserve Police Forces, shows that you do not even have the basic knowledge of the Constitution of India, as The Armed Forces Officers are above ‘Group A’ officers as per Article 310 of our Constitution. They are the first mention in the article. You also do not have the rudimentary knowledge on primary and secondary roles of the Armed Forces, hence you are silently accepting the unconstitutional equivalence meted out to them in the 7th CPC. Your stopping of rations for the officers that was in vogue since 1983 and giving them a paltry ₹ 96 per day that is taxable reducing the net amount below the daily food allowance of convicts in civil jail in NCR and Northeast India has caused uncalled for ire. It only shows your lack of concern towards the officers of the Armed Forces. Your instructions reducing the turnover of CSD canteens by half in the guise of stopping its misuse only shows your indifferent attitude towards soldiers, who are the last bastion of the country. Mr PM; the digitised canteen cards have been given to all servicemen and veterans; how is it possible to misuse the canteen facilities, when you have laid down the monetary limit to each rank? Please tell your Defence Minister not to nod his head for everything that the minions around him blabber. He needs to discuss it with concerned general officers of the army, navy and air force to get a correct picture. I don’t blame him as he is your part-time defence minister."




Do people this forum even know how much does a person who retires from forces makes and then take into account the fact that what the same government pays to folks even in active service outside of military and the executive ?

Here

http://www.7thcpc.in/content/7th-cpc-ca ... er-7th-cpc

Put a basic pay figure and check what guy will make after 7th pay commission . The allowances for flying, submarine based duty, diving, siachin postings have been increased by a significant margin and these are good steps but I think it is high time to call out the intent of those who crib about pay of those in armed forces or even the retired personnel , instead of asking if people are happy (for no one is going to say so world is full of greedy people) ask them what they made when they retired in 90s versus what they make today . OROP equalizes things at a scale and level no nation can even dream about certainly not a third world country with ever increasing number of those who retire from it's military.

IAS has it's flaws but then a lot of those in military who have reached sena bhawan in south block are not better they are drunk on power and seek more power but less 'responsibility'. This argument about we are not happy with OROP because we need equal status as IAS is akin to a person with a full plate but he is not happy for he finds another man in the room who has a bigger plate.

Morale of the forces is not a function of their pay ; even in the much maligned private sector where packages for executives run into crores beyond a point money cannot even motivate one to come to office let alone laying down one's life for country so all such idiots who link OROP with Morale of troops need to get their head examined.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 06 Aug 2017 06:37

negi wrote:Morale of the forces is not a function of their pay ; even in the much maligned private sector where packages for executives run into crores beyond a point money cannot even motivate one to come to office let alone laying down one's life for country so all such idiots who link OROP with Morale of troops need to get their head examined.
Right, the men who're putting their lives on the line have no idea what factors are at work with the morale of men... who put their lives on the line. Brilliant thesis this.

The writer is one of the smartest officers of his generation. Made it very young to the Staff College and were it not for Regimental politics he would have made chief.

IAS has it's flaws but then a lot of those in military who have reached sena bhawan in south block are not better they are drunk on power and seek more power but less 'responsibility'.
I'd say our generals are decidedly worse. Professionally incompetent they may be but the IAS and IPS can at least can be relied on to protect the interests of their own cadres. Our generals are failing spectacularly and barely putting up a fight.

This argument about we are not happy with OROP because we need equal status as IAS is akin to a person with a full plate but he is not happy for he finds another man in the room who has a bigger plate.
Yeah we should watch stuff like this, where they offer 25% of base pay extra to babus willing to work in the NE, and just turn around and say a firm "no, I'm good" while you're risking your neck flying in the mountains in your shitty single engine with a taped on GPS. And you're comparing this to the private sector? The same one where a guy will jump ship every 2 years to keep parity with the going pay? Good one.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby AdityaM » 08 Aug 2017 21:51

After 130 years, government decides to shut down all 39 military farms


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