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Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 09 Aug 2017 01:58

My issue is not with OROP, a topic about which i understand nothing and hence have no locus standi to comment. I feel his comments about the chalta hain attitude at MOD, lack of DM, coherent anti opponent strategy are valid. Its inexcusable it took 3 years for PMO to free up ammo logjam. MP did some good work in Su30 serviceability, Tejas Mk1A..but rest is plodding on.

negi wrote:^That article is horseshit

"
Your partial implementation of ‘OROP’ has fueled discontent among the service men and veterans. Your absolute neglect of the anomalies of the 4th, 5th and 6th Pay commission has shown that you really do not care? The marginalisation of the Armed Forces in the 7th Pay Commission and lowering them at par with Central Reserve Police Forces, shows that you do not even have the basic knowledge of the Constitution of India, as The Armed Forces Officers are above ‘Group A’ officers as per Article 310 of our Constitution. They are the first mention in the article. You also do not have the rudimentary knowledge on primary and secondary roles of the Armed Forces, hence you are silently accepting the unconstitutional equivalence meted out to them in the 7th CPC. Your stopping of rations for the officers that was in vogue since 1983 and giving them a paltry ₹ 96 per day that is taxable reducing the net amount below the daily food allowance of convicts in civil jail in NCR and Northeast India has caused uncalled for ire. It only shows your lack of concern towards the officers of the Armed Forces. Your instructions reducing the turnover of CSD canteens by half in the guise of stopping its misuse only shows your indifferent attitude towards soldiers, who are the last bastion of the country. Mr PM; the digitised canteen cards have been given to all servicemen and veterans; how is it possible to misuse the canteen facilities, when you have laid down the monetary limit to each rank? Please tell your Defence Minister not to nod his head for everything that the minions around him blabber. He needs to discuss it with concerned general officers of the army, navy and air force to get a correct picture. I don’t blame him as he is your part-time defence minister."




Do people this forum even know how much does a person who retires from forces makes and then take into account the fact that what the same government pays to folks even in active service outside of military and the executive ?

Here

http://www.7thcpc.in/content/7th-cpc-ca ... er-7th-cpc

Put a basic pay figure and check what guy will make after 7th pay commission . The allowances for flying, submarine based duty, diving, siachin postings have been increased by a significant margin and these are good steps but I think it is high time to call out the intent of those who crib about pay of those in armed forces or even the retired personnel , instead of asking if people are happy (for no one is going to say so world is full of greedy people) ask them what they made when they retired in 90s versus what they make today . OROP equalizes things at a scale and level no nation can even dream about certainly not a third world country with ever increasing number of those who retire from it's military.

IAS has it's flaws but then a lot of those in military who have reached sena bhawan in south block are not better they are drunk on power and seek more power but less 'responsibility'. This argument about we are not happy with OROP because we need equal status as IAS is akin to a person with a full plate but he is not happy for he finds another man in the room who has a bigger plate.

Morale of the forces is not a function of their pay ; even in the much maligned private sector where packages for executives run into crores beyond a point money cannot even motivate one to come to office let alone laying down one's life for country so all such idiots who link OROP with Morale of troops need to get their head examined.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 02:13

India needs to reduce the size of army by 20% and use the savings to better equip the army. The ever increasing wages, perks and retirement benefits are not sustainable for an organization where most people retire early.

China is cutting down army size for similar reasons.

Currently more than 2/3rd of our defence budget goes to pay, benefits, retirement packages and like. Not how one can build a potent well equipped army.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2017 04:20

After Malabar, India & US gear up for September military drill
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 964009.cms

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 09 Aug 2017 08:25

Karan honestly tell me one thing what changes have you seen in the forces , specially their own operations how they work , how they respond to threats ? I find it amusing when people from forces talk about reforming the MOD when forces and MoD work at a pace of their mutual agreement , it is a convenient perspective to have where MOD is lethargic and forces the victim . Both of them are government institutions if someone believes that forces do not have their own babudom and inertia then they don't know nothing .

I mean few days back there was an article on poor state of sniper schools in IA in fact we do not have a sniper program we call marksmen as snipers , what has MOD got to do with it leaders in true sense can easily use their discretionary powers and set these up ; will some Babu at MOD have to setup a meeting and then compile some findings from google to initiate this process ?

In recently held biathlons we again sent the Ts instead of Arjun where is the desire and push to actually field our best , put it to test and get genuine OEM feedback ? Does MOD decide which tanks go to biathlon ?

It is easy for all of us to blame someone in centre for our failure lot of us who do so are fcking helpless civilians with no say aside from a vote but I laugh at those who in such positions of authority don't move a brick but expect someone from top to initiate every damn thing they need .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 09 Aug 2017 09:28

schinnas wrote:India needs to reduce the size of army by 20% and use the savings to better equip the army. The ever increasing wages, perks and retirement benefits are not sustainable for an organization where most people retire early.

China is cutting down army size for similar reasons.

Currently more than 2/3rd of our defence budget goes to pay, benefits, retirement packages and like. Not how one can build a potent well equipped army.
Easier said than done. Counter insurgency is extremely manpower intensive and we deal with two unsettled borders on top of that. These are really political failures that we're papering over and containing with hard military force. Solving these problems are the only way to reduce these demands on manpower without having the state collapse. As far as I can tell ours is the only major land border that is not settled for China and they also don't face the same magnitude of internal unrest.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Aug 2017 11:16

Hi Karan,

Re your exchange with Negi and his subsequent posts the article is not horseshit. Unfortunately most of the Negis posts are. Goebbels first law of propoganda 'lie with conviction long enough and even lies will become the truth'. On a forum like this Barkha Dutt will always out scream Maroof Raza. So please ignore this stuff. He really is clueless. If I remember correctly on an exchange a long time ago I got the impression that he has a grudge against the armed forces because he or a close one couldn't make the SSB. So he felt it was rigged. Many good people don't like in any selection process but that's life.

Please feel free to share your email with me and we can discuss some substantive issues on OROP, pay , armed forces etc offline. We have a small group offline on email with Rakesh, DJ, Ramana and perhaps that's the way to go for serious discussions.

I met the following people in the last couple of weeks.

1. LT Gen Satpute - GOC 21 Corps during Paralaram. Interesting story about a walk on a sand dune with COAS discussing the most crucial aspect of Parakram. Can't share more here.

2. SSP of a District in Weatern UP

3. Ex SSP of Lucknow.

4. Divisional Commisioner now in Cnetre

5. two ex def secy, two serving jt secys in MOD one ex additional secy mod stil serving

6. Many young officers including a young major from Garhwal Rifles who I met in Military Hospital. He is posted on LC.

Lots of interesting insights and some shocking revelations. Primarily even I was shocked at the level of disdain and downright hostility to armed forces. Some words said by senior people about how they look at defence and armed forces were so shocking that I don't what to say them on an open forum.

Lots of stories about corruption in bureaucracy and how some honest officers were hounded (the ex Lucknow SSP for example).

Also how new IAS and IPS and allied services hate to go to centre now because of the modi da danda. All making a beeline for states.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 09 Aug 2017 11:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Aug 2017 11:20


negi
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 09 Aug 2017 11:27

Karan I know each other you on the other hand do not know me yet you take liberty to judge people because their views hurt you or at least you could not counter them hence get personal ; to claim that I hold a grudge against the forces is laughable I have 3 generations in my family who have served and continue to serve the forces in , I posted data prior to posting my views you find them extreme that is subjective but fact is you either do not have data or do not have enough time or ability to form a cohesive argument ; I have failed many exams and cleared some does not mean I have to hold a grudge against institutions which I did not make to I have been raised to call spade a spade and hence I do say that UPSC selection process is opaque and hence liable to be rigged , now that is not an opinion it is a fact along with an assertion kapiche ?

Now if I were to respond in kind to you I can easily call likes of you the who cannot think on their own but only know how to follow orders in short Moti Buddhi wale , how is that for a personal attack ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chola » 09 Aug 2017 11:38

Yup, we sent the T-90 instead of the Arjun to the Tank Biathlon.

Lost opportunity. This would have been a nice exercise to test the Arjun against Russian and chini maal.

We never give any consideration for our domestic equipment while chinis stuck with their own tanks in the biathlon even when their wheels fall off year after year.

http://defenceaviationpost.com/watch-indias-main-battle-tank-t-90-action-international-army-games-russia/

Russia is using a modified T-72B3M, while China has brought its Type 96 variant tank. This year, India has opted for Russian made T-90S tanks. “This year, for the first time, the team would be participating with own T-90 tanks which have been shipped to Russia,” the Army said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Aug 2017 11:57

Negi,

Your views have been countered a 100 times by several people and shown to be just that - views and opinions emanating from bias.

Ultimately for serious discussion and analysis we need substantive facts. But you keep saying ' I know this ' and never back it up. You have a lot of opinions alright but no facts. Your points on free rations were laughable. Many posters corrected you but you refused to accept facts. Now if you say 'negi is right and everyone is wrong including the most trusted commentators' then you have a problem my friend not the others.

I don't post often. Infant I have even stopped posting because of the uninformed posting on thins forum but when I post I back it up with experience , facts and research. Like in my post above I have given 6 instances of actual conversations I have had with people. Some of those will knock you off your seat. Other people believe in increasing their post count.

I am in no way hurt my friend. But it seems you are. SSB has its faults and I know of a very good example Major Nautiyal who didn't make it at NDA or IMA but on third try made it to OTA. A very fine officer. But hey that's life. My dear friend couldn't make it on any and even tried territorial army and had a fight with the brigadier chairing the panel. I can't imagine a better officer than my friend and I genuinely think the army lost a great guy. But that's life. Move on.

You and I are but specks. But I do find it interesting that BR allows UNINFORMED attacks on armed forces but a hint of a hurt to personal pride is taken with righteous indignity.

Are we here to feed our egos or as serious students of defence affairs ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 09 Aug 2017 12:23

Let me first call out a few issues which lead people to get sentimental , I am everything but sentimental on topics. First thing this entire argument that people are posting offensive stuff against armed forces is firstly flawed ; in world or reason and facts all are equal we post offensive things about politicians , Babus , MOD , HAL so why have differnt level of sensitivity about he forces they all serve the same country . Now hopefully having set context for where I am coming from I personally have very high regards for aspect of forces but as much as I strongly admire them for their discipline and devotion to duty the same me feels no compulsion to not talk about areas where things are bad not because of people but because of the aspects which are not relevant in today's times . I recollect all my posts made here in the critical vein and now that you have brought this issue let me regugerate stuff and the responses I got from esteemed members including those who have served .

So let me start with the focal point based on which my posts have been qualified as laced with bias ; that I called SSB selection opaque , liable to be rigged , unsuitable for indenpedent india (for it was made by British for the British ) . Of course I remember your response on lines of how many candidates from ordinary households have made it through and did I ever counter it ? It is not as if I am saying the system is crap I am only saying it is flawed . Brigadier RayC ( unfortunately he is not here anymore ) himself agreed that forces promote kinship . Yiu can search archives if it was saved .

Point being you have right to be offended and call me extreme but to say I posted BS on above topic would be a huge joke; no one in India leave alone this forum who knows how UPSC selections work would deny that it gets rigged often and in an organised manner , I have relatives who run SSB training institutes in Doon and Chandigarh so I know .

I made critical posts about CSD , OROP and rationing system like you get to talk to others I talk to my father , brother and my relatives who have served my views are not born in some vacuum however I never felt I need the weight of my family's antecedents to support my views .

The tendency to blame everything on politicians and MOD is flawed ; no arms acquisition scam has happened without involvement of those in the uniform name one . I have merely been a bit more vocal than some of the others I never said forces are evil I have always been saying show the same sensitivity to all institutions for that is the right thing to do , where have I said anything which is questioning honour of those who serve or their institution ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby alexis » 09 Aug 2017 12:41

^^
Easier said than done. Counter insurgency is extremely manpower intensive and we deal with two unsettled borders on top of that. These are really political failures that we're papering over and containing with hard military force. Solving these problems are the only way to reduce these demands on manpower without having the state collapse. As far as I can tell ours is the only major land border that is not settled for China and they also don't face the same magnitude of internal unrest.


anjan, i completely agree we need to provide our soldiers with wages competitive to other jobs. However, we cannot provide them with better wages with current numbers. Either we cut down the active personnel or we give them lower wages like now.

I will partly endorse negi's comment that situation has dramatically improved in the last 15-20 years with respect to total wages for the armed forces. An engineer starting his career in armed forces now make more than a fresher IT engineer. We cannot afford to pay more with current force structure unless our government magically earns a lot more.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Aug 2017 13:14

Negi,

The balance argument again - balance the armed forces view and bureaucracy. It's the same argument that Barkha Dutt and our DDM use balance India and Pakistan view. BULLSHIT. Don't balance anything. Just go for the jugular and go for the truth.

Truth is that bureaucracy has all the financial powers an issue I have posted several times on. So has DJ who have an example of how his helicopter unit can't get spares if they are out of the normal process. truth is that armed forces standing has been consistently reduced vis a vis the bureaucracy. Pay is lower, risk is much higher , living conditions and family quarters are far far far worse , you can't get anything done in local government if you are a fauji but if you ate an IAS officer or IPS or IT you can. As a nation we are saying we don't value the soldier. What does that lead to - bad quality of intake. I'm sorry but that's a fact. I have several friends and course mates who ha e just finished command as CO and say you are very lucky you left very early. These days all we pray for in a unit is just 1 good officer. And you see the results - the fabric is being eroded day by day.

The problem is simple. Pay peanuts get monkeys. Nation cannot be defended in 1.7 pct of GDP. Period.

Even UK has a 90 k army for a population of 60 million. By that ratio we should have a 1.8 million army. But we don't. And our army is fully employed in CI CT ops in the valley they northeast . Two hot borders and all kinds of earth quakes and tsunami relief and anytime civil breaks down. It's just not feasable. We need to spend atleast 3.5- 4 pct of GDP if we are to have any chance of sensible national security.

To end two recent quotes :

1. ex Def Secy - armed forces are our servants, fit to only stand as guards. We kick them and they ask how hard

2. JT Secy MOD - even army chief stands with his hands tied in front of me. If my pen doesn't move nothing moves. The pen is truly nightier than the sword.

jai hind. Mera Bharat Mahan

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 09 Aug 2017 13:42

Brother remember what B Raman said about the forces ? Something on the lines of it is part of their job to die , he got a lot of colourful epithets thrown at him there is a reason why Babus get all the bad blood everywhere , however for time being if we all develop a thick skin the central point which I was trying to make is as much as forces might feel that they have been relegated down the priority list by governments in last 3-4 years things have changed we have to give it to the same system the credit that it has revamped the entire pay structure of those under MOD to make it a career option for many who otherwise were lured by the private sector .

Look around yourself at all other government institutions say the para military their working conditions and then have a look at their stature and material facilities provided to them by the same government , police cadre sits even lower down that order ; now given that all of us daily depend on cops to keep us safe within the country we are not doing great there . Point I am trying to make is that the delta between what forces get versus what they deserve is smaller than all others , by just remaining fixated on IAS for comparison we are probably only talking about the executive class . If you look it from an outsider's perpestcive and even concede to the argument that forces have been relegated below the IAS the question I would ask myself is that a big problem when compared to demands of so many central agencies who want a parity with forces ? How do you suggest civilian government will address that ? RahulM can further elaborate on IAS vs forces mind you forces do have an upper hand on their pension sceheme when compared to the IAS not that I am trying to counter your views but just throwing an example out how there are differences everywhere .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 09 Aug 2017 22:18

alexis wrote:anjan, i completely agree we need to provide our soldiers with wages competitive to other jobs. However, we cannot provide them with better wages with current numbers. Either we cut down the active personnel or we give them lower wages like now.

I will partly endorse negi's comment that situation has dramatically improved in the last 15-20 years with respect to total wages for the armed forces. An engineer starting his career in armed forces now make more than a fresher IT engineer. We cannot afford to pay more with current force structure unless our government magically earns a lot more.
If you pay is not competitive you'll get people who are of lower capability. The old "pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys " argument. This is why companies in the wider world compete on pay. This is such a basic aspect of most professions that I find it odd to type this out. This is especially true when you're asking for people for a force that is continuously engaged in operations. This isn't like the US army where people join up for the GI BIll and hope that president doesn't go to war while they're running out the clock. We are at war. We've been at war for a very long time. Nor is the business of war some kind of unqualified labor. With poor quality manpower you'll get poor results. And ultimately you need to understand what you're trying to do. You're trying to motivate people to voluntarily place their lives on the line. Most people I work with can't be motivated to make a longer commute. The people who you're trying to recruit into the Armed forces come from this same world. So what are offering a young man that's choosing careers? That's the rational "business" argument.

Let me also say that I sometimes wonder if people really understand the sacrifices we ask of these people. An IAF pilot somewhere out there gets to sleep in a leaky quonset hut, gets horrendous food and can't talk to his son on his birthday. And for a day job he flies single engine helicopters in the mountains that are always one failure, one bad weather day away from death. And he's lucky really because my father's battalion just came down from the LC and I know what that was like. Knee deep snow and avalanches to break the monotony. These young men my age get to play regular russian roulette with death and the near certainty that they'll find an indifferent administration should they die or be maimed. And this for a lower pay than mine (and I'd wager much lower than the average pay of folks on this board). When we send men up to die in our stead we have an obligation as a society. And we're not meeting it. It shames me personally.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 09 Aug 2017 22:38

negi wrote: mind you forces do have an upper hand on their pension sceheme when compared to the IAS not that I am trying to counter your views but just throwing an example out how there are differences everywhere .
This is factually untrue. NFU(non-functional upgradation) means everyone in the IAS retires with a general's pay whereas a third of officers won't make it to Col. and most won't make it beyond that. Not to talk of pay while in service. This is not a matter of opinion. I post articles on how for the IAS the entirety of the NE is a hardship deserving of 37% of basic pay as special duty allowance(SDA). Higher than the Siachen allowance Yet you say your spiel authoritatively again and again with no evidence.

Goebbels could have taken lessons. Maybe Trump should.

negi wrote:Let me first call out a few issues which lead people to get sentimental , I am everything but sentimental on topics.
If this is true, then it's disturbing. I can at least understand honest hatred.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2017 23:57

So Negi your disagreement with Mr. Kamath article is on OROP right?

Rest of his ideas for reforms?

Akshay Please don't reduce participation as we need more people.
Gresham's Law applies.

Now your disagreement with Negi is on the Defense ministry reforms advocated by Mr. Kamath?

I wish Mr. Kamath had stuck to just that without the long preamble.

Guys, I think we are having a good exchange of views please don't muddy by reporting posts.
Either join the debate or read.

Thanks,
ramana

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2017 23:58

BTW, the great Gen. K.S. Sundarji was from OTA, Madras.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Ramesh » 10 Aug 2017 01:04

My 2 naya paisa on the issues, pl TIFWIW
OROP: The fine print says it is not applicable if you quit on your own after pensionable service. A jawan is eligible for pension after 15 yrs of service but will retire depending on rank anywhere between 21 to 27 yrs of service. An officer is eligible for pension after 20 yrs of service but most will retire at lt col or col at age of 54 yrs, which for an average officer commissioned at 23 means 31 years of service.
So the powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, will encourage people to serve on an average 10 yrs more, with full pay when they could have moved out with pension, making way for younger blood.

[b]NFU
: All other services including civilian employees of MES are eligible but not armed forces officers. There must be some justification, which being a moti budhi, I fail to comprehend.

Accountability: Which babu in MOD has ever been questioned for any event, be it 1962 or 1999?
Aroun Shourie has fallen out of favour of the forum, but to quote from his book: Self Deception,
Indian Army did not have adequate winter clothing in 1962, 1999 and will not have in future war with China


Ration: The pay is sufficient to buy ration in towns and cities and heavens won't fall. But the fact that amount paid for prisoners ration in J&K and NE is higher says something in itself. It took six months for learned babus to notify move of army during operation Parakram. So next time, may be army should say, notify officially before it moves.

CSD: Prone to misuse, but think of families where husband is away and they depend on nearest CSD for grocery. Is it a case of throwing baby with the bath water? And I am not going into the quality of stuff available, just to quote two examples:
Kent Water Purifier: Model in open market has UF,UV &RO, model in csd does not have UV.
Sports shoes: Nike, adidas, reebok - the models in csd are not in open market and vice versa.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 10 Aug 2017 02:12

On the topic of IAS, thee should be compulsory attending of the 1 year Army training either at Technical Academy or IMA for all those who clear IAS exams.

I am sure we can manage the lot for one year.

Lets see how many of them truly want to serve the nation.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2017 04:35

In the academy they get attached to a unit at the border for 3 months.
They all have great memories of that stint. At least the ones I met.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vnms » 10 Aug 2017 07:14

What I read from the above arguments is this:

1) if given a choice, pretty much all military personnel would prefer to be out from under the bureaucracy, even if the pay scales don't match up with the babus.
2) more money would be nice, but I don't know of a single officer level and above guy joining for the money.
3) more money would also be nice if it could attract better talent. But based on the above point, I do not know how much it would really help.
4) how one say that all the employees of the government serve the nation equally? Is the service of a babu sitting in an a/c office the same as an officer serving at the border? This comparison utter rubbish.

I think, I can safely vouch for the vast majority of of the forum members that we do appreciate the sacrifices of the armed forces and more importantly, you do have our RESPECT.

Please do not prevent a matter of a different opinion prevent you from giving us your insight. That was one of the rights that guys have fought to protect, after all :). Some of us have no clue about the armed forces. Who else will provide more insight into this? I share a lot info, gained from this forum, with folks that interact with on a daily basis.

PS: I failed the SSB, Bhopal. The only guys that did not get through were the folks not related in any way to the armed forces or sainik school. But, I have no regrets or ill feelings. I probably wouldn't have survived as I'm not very disciplined.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 10 Aug 2017 07:40

Ramesh wrote: Sports shoes: Nike, adidas, reebok - the models in csd are not in open market and vice versa.

OT. A few years ago I saw a nephew of mine buying a pair of Nike for Rs 5000. (cheap) At a Nike outlet. It was a 30% off sale. If I buy something for Rs 5000 I will wear it on my head like a crown. I replaced my outdoor/sports shoes a month ago after 2 years of hard use. I bought an unbranded one at a sports store for Rs 750. As long as one has no peer pressure to buy branded - the unbranded ones are just as good for day to day use.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 10 Aug 2017 07:53

vnms wrote:What I read from the above arguments is this:

1) if given a choice, pretty much all military personnel would prefer to be out from under the bureaucracy, even if the pay scales don't match up with the babus.
2) more money would be nice, but I don't know of a single officer level and above guy joining for the money.
3) more money would also be nice if it could attract better talent. But based on the above point, I do not know how much it would really help.
4) how one say that all the employees of the government serve the nation equally? Is the service of a babu sitting in an a/c office the same as an officer serving at the border? This comparison utter rubbish.


Maybe they didn't join for money, but they shouldn't worry about the money when going about their jobs. Maybe they didn't care about the money when they joined, but once they have a family (some 5-10 years later), they'll care for the sake of the family.
In a different sense, money is also about the recognition and appreciation of the Govt towards the efforts of the armed forces. Looking at the OROP saga, I think that they don't feel the Govt is recognizing their role.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 10 Aug 2017 08:54

I think my central point is lost on people; forces are not just officers right ? Parts of this may come as bean counting but numbers give a perspective when the delta is huge.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-IAS-are- ... d-per-year

How many IAS we recruit we each year ? As per above in 2016 we recruited '1079' across all IAS+IPS+IFS , then in 2015 the number was '1129'. In fact if we speak only of the IAS who truly sit at the apex we only recruit 180-200 per year (again someone should correct me there if stats are off)

Now those who have served how many officers we recruit across the 3 services each year ? My take is around 2.5k per year across all the services be it CDS, NDA or direct entry schemes but that is just the officers we are not talking about the jawans/sailors or airmen.

This is a zero sum game budgetary outlays for IASs' perks/pays even if small will still get distributed among the few . The 3 services on the other hand have to pay all men across the ranks and these three already claim to be running 20% short of their desired strength just in officer ranks the guys at the top who have to arrive at budgetary outlay for the 3 services have to do so in light of the fact that every 3-4 years the OROP regulations will mean hiking the pensions of those who had retired earlier and the net number of retirees will increase every year .

Now my argument is this ask for parity is not only emanating from the three services the para military and institutions like ITBP too have been asking for parity now if the argument is grounded on concept of 'fairness' then I am sure no one can poke a hole in this argument, for instance look at the condition of cops in India they are the ones who need a hand or two to improve their conditions so that they can do their jobs better but I realize that's a topic for another thread , another day.

I have always felt talking on this topic an exercise in futility for I have always believed that in life one can never be in a position where there is parity there will always be people who will be doing and making better than you and then there will be those who will be down the food chain . I think any argument which seeks a "material commodity" be it pay/pension should be argued on one's own merit and arguments for more pay/pension because someone else or some other org makes more will be hard to justify for more than one reason.

By the way not sure how many know this but iirc until the 5th pay commission happened there was a difference in pay structure even across the IN and the IA they were brought to same level after that the point is on a whole things have improved for the services in last 10 or so years ; fixation with IAS will remain relevant for the few at the helm but for rest of the men they will do much well if we provide them better equipment, residential facilities (look at creeking IN housing in NN colaba) and most importantly career development paths outside of usual staff colleges and leadership courses . I think tenure of service is not as important as quality of service , I know many officers who are doing very well in ITVTY and private sector because of their personal interest and efforts and they are in leadership positions and most of them took an early retirement because the long tenure of service does not make one a suitable candidate in private sector my father is enjoying his retirement partly because no one will hire a 50+ year old guy unless he or she has really really good qualifications on paper and this is not about feeling sorry for these people fact is we are a young nation where number of jobless but qualified people in 25-35 age group is so huge that even a experienced 45+ year old chap will find it hard to find a job regardless of his achievements and this is not only for retired people and that is why I always say to folks who criticize the OROP to actually have a look at countrymen around , 5 years ago when there was no OROP the pensioners were in a bad state specially those who retired say in the 80s but I find it hard to fathom why people crib now many in my family who retired in early 90s are very happy with OROP at least country did something better for them , can it do more may be but there are many who are in institutions that serve country at similar level who do not even have OROP when that fact sinks in to one's mind it should not be difficult to reach a state of contentment when you look at the armed forces at least in this department.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 10 Aug 2017 09:13

Also I would like to again point out sentimental nature of debate here on lines of "How some babu sitting in AC can make more than those fighting on border".

First things first that is life , even in forces someone sitting in sena bhawan Nai Dilli south block will make more than some jawan posted in baramula J&K. In private industry a VP playing with excel will make more than someone writing code or shoveling coal into the furnace .

Have people ever rallied for hiking pay of the traffic hawaldar who mans road crossings the entire day be it in sun or rain ?

I do not think such points lend any credibility to the argument.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vnms » 10 Aug 2017 09:33

srin wrote:
vnms wrote:What I read from the above arguments is this:

1) if given a choice, pretty much all military personnel would prefer to be out from under the bureaucracy, even if the pay scales don't match up with the babus.
2) more money would be nice, but I don't know of a single officer level and above guy joining for the money.
3) more money would also be nice if it could attract better talent. But based on the above point, I do not know how much it would really help.
4) how one say that all the employees of the government serve the nation equally? Is the service of a babu sitting in an a/c office the same as an officer serving at the border? This comparison utter rubbish.


Maybe they didn't join for money, but they shouldn't worry about the money when going about their jobs. Maybe they didn't care about the money when they joined, but once they have a family (some 5-10 years later), they'll care for the sake of the family.
In a different sense, money is also about the recognition and appreciation of the Govt towards the efforts of the armed forces. Looking at the OROP saga, I think that they don't feel the Govt is recognizing their role.

Agreed and I didn't imply that didn't need the money. They shouldn't have worry about it.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 10 Aug 2017 09:36

negi wrote:Have people ever rallied for hiking pay of the traffic hawaldar who mans road crossings the entire day be it in sun or rain ?

This is also sentiment apart from shifting the argument to whataboutery. "What about the "traffic hawaldar who mans road crossings the entire day be it in sun or rain"

You should make an impassioned please for those people and I am sure others will join you rather than arguing with you to say "hey there are still others who are suffering even more. What about them?"

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 10 Aug 2017 09:42

^ I gave an example showing how hollow the arguments here are ; not saying that I want the same to happen; I know why they cannot be paid at the same level .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 10 Aug 2017 09:47

Also if people really want parity let me then ask ; can someone exactly quantify that aside from saying we want same perks and salary as IAS ? I for have not seen a single post showing what is this gap which people want to bridge ? For someone who feels this so strongly I assume he or she would have very clear data to support their arguments .

As far as I know Services chiefs make same as Cabinet Secretary at least the basic salary is same , allowances can vary and they cannot even be compared within the services let alone across. So what is that we are missing ? Some protocol where IA chief has to take permission from cabinet sec ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 10 Aug 2017 10:30

I think the arguments got the way it is when @negi used "horse shit". One may disagree with what the retired officer wrote but he has his rights to say it. I know of many military men who disagree with his view. But it is a view.

- On all other points Negi ji is neither wrong or right and I concur with his view that the discussions here are officer centric while the vast majority of forces are Jawans.

- The issues debated here are also being discussed among faujis and I think that there is no clear dominant view even among officers as to whether the steps are right.

- Personally, I have no problems with the OROP system. There are some who feel denied but even to get all sides to agree to these points was a Herculaneum achievement. Bhishm! like.

- Money for rations: Rations for personnel in armed forces across location was not a Colonial handover but a thing instituted in 1983 as far as I understand. Now changing it to cash has issues. This is not a fixed amount for eternity. It will become in sometime something which will have to be raised every few years and will be linked to inflation etc (at least I forecast this). The amount will keep increasing and will be another bone of contention. Already I hear that amount is being increased from Rs. 96 to ~Rs. 300 per day. (Don't quote me, this is hearsay :) ). In my view this cash for rations thing may yet turn out to be a bad decision but today is too early to say.

- Early Retirement age is something that is unique to armed forces. There is no clear cut answer to this challenge without compromising military efficiency. That has to be the single point of focus for all decisions in this regard. Trust me this debate is not settled. NFU / OROP etc are just some aspects of this debate.

- Men / Officers point of Negi is the one forces worry the most. The last thing we want is that our men feel allienated. It will kill the army. Please understand that from a Military efficiency point of view, the decisions to enhance command and control (differentiate between officers and men) and decisions to enhance welfare ( betterment of living conditions of officers and men) can be easily separated. This is understood and I can only hope that all decision makers will be sensitive to this.

- SSB as a selection exam is comprehensive and even the UPSC folks will tell you that is an excellent system of selection.The forces are looking to identify certain qualities and not just academic or physical meritorious standards. The training at Sainik Schools, Military Schools and RIMC definitely helps inculcate such qualities. I for one, am from a private school and in my SSB out of 07 who qualified, 01 was a fauji's son and 06 of us were from pvt schools. Many other fauji sons and sainik school types did not make it. The sad part today is that number of faujis sending their children to fauj has reduced in % terms from say 70's - 80's period. It shows that those of us who served in the fauj do not like the carrier for our children. This is more a reflection of changing value system in my opinion than pay and perks.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 10 Aug 2017 11:51

negi wrote:Let me first call out a few issues which lead people to get sentimental , I am everything but sentimental on topics. First thing this entire argument that people are posting offensive stuff against armed forces is firstly flawed ; in world or reason and facts all are equal we post offensive things about politicians , Babus , MOD , HAL so why have differnt level of sensitivity about he forces they all serve the same country . Now hopefully having set context for where I am coming from I personally have very high regards for aspect of forces but as much as I strongly admire them for their discipline and devotion to duty the same me feels no compulsion to not talk about areas where things are bad not because of people but because of the aspects which are not relevant in today's times . I recollect all my posts made here in the critical vein and now that you have brought this issue let me regugerate stuff and the responses I got from esteemed members including those who have served .

So let me start with the focal point based on which my posts have been qualified as laced with bias ; that I called SSB selection opaque , liable to be rigged , unsuitable for indenpedent india (for it was made by British for the British ) . Of course I remember your response on lines of how many candidates from ordinary households have made it through and did I ever counter it ? It is not as if I am saying the system is crap I am only saying it is flawed . Brigadier RayC ( unfortunately he is not here anymore ) himself agreed that forces promote kinship . Yiu can search archives if it was saved .

Point being you have right to be offended and call me extreme but to say I posted BS on above topic would be a huge joke; no one in India leave alone this forum who knows how UPSC selections work would deny that it gets rigged often and in an organised manner , I have relatives who run SSB training institutes in Doon and Chandigarh so I know .

I made critical posts about CSD , OROP and rationing system like you get to talk to others I talk to my father , brother and my relatives who have served my views are not born in some vacuum however I never felt I need the weight of my family's antecedents to support my views .

The tendency to blame everything on politicians and MOD is flawed ; no arms acquisition scam has happened without involvement of those in the uniform name one . I have merely been a bit more vocal than some of the others I never said forces are evil I have always been saying show the same sensitivity to all institutions for that is the right thing to do , where have I said anything which is questioning honour of those who serve or their institution ?


Negi ji,

@Akshay Kapoor ji is right when he criticises the baboo(n)s for lack of professionalism.

The IA, like the other Indian Armed Forces is all volunteer and extremely professional.

The baboo(n)s have mistaken "civilian control" to mean petty and everyday micromanagement control by the baboo(n)s when it actually means control by the duly constituted elected representatives who are specifically placed in authority over the Armed Forces, like the MOD or the PM.

In other words, the Forces cannot unilaterally declare war on any adversary but once war has been declared by the competent civilian power like the PM and cabinet, the Forces will, quickly and efficiently, prosecute their duty to the fullest extent permitted by the geneva convention, in furtherance of the national objectives as enunciated by the competent authority like the PM and cabinet. The Def secy and his buddhu gang know jack and they do jack.

The baboo(n)s are generalists, like any other pan chewing moron walking aimlessly on the footpath. What are these amateurs expected to know about doklam or south china sea or Su 30 MKI?? and more importantly, what credible "advice" can he ever render to the well-qualified soldiers in the discharge of their professional duties??

The baboo(n)s have wrested control because they have willfully created and also maliciously perpetuate an "us and them" situation with the Forces on one side and the politicos on the other side and they cleverly offer to mediate and exercise control on behalf of the politicos thus actually creating a deep state situation. Non stake holding and illiterate, time pass politicos have outsourced their responsibilities to this equally non stake holding, time pass, bitter, corrupt and itinerant lot

The CDS and also an effective joint chiefs situation has been stymied by this lot who are being actively aided and abetted some stupid individual chiefs of some specific force.

There are indeed many things that cannot be discussed on an open forum.

To make matters worse, the police and district administrations have very conveniently and uninvited, piggybacked on to this bandwagon, further demoralizing the Forces. The 7th pay commission has degraded equivalent rank structure with is conveniently based on pay scales and the "civilians" who are very much junior have pulled ahead in the equivalent rank hierarchy thus upsetting the administrative applecart.

in this matter, Modi, parrikar and jetli have not covered themselves in glory as they have been instrumental in the degradation of Forces on the "advice" of the baboo(n)s
Last edited by chetak on 10 Aug 2017 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby JayS » 10 Aug 2017 12:13

I don't understand much about this ration issue, but one thing that I feel is - its stupid to burden soldiers for thinking about getting food when they should be concentrating on fighting. So many private companies give subsidized food for employees and it have a very good impact on employees. For Army this becomes even more critical. I think it matters less whether the money for the foodgrains is being provided over and above salary or is being deducted from salary or its subsidized or it less than market price or something else. I think what is of paramount importance is whether our soldiers would be getting good quality foodgrain very easily or not, even in the most adverse conditions in the remote-most areas that they have to serve and might have to fight someday. Giving money to soldiers (even if more than sufficient money) and telling them "go find your own grain" is rather sub-optimal. If they are getting the grain right inside the Army camp very easily by giving money then its alright. But if they have to go out and buy it then it seems a very bad idea, to be applied everywhere and for all times, especially when the Army is mobilized to border areas in large numbers (like in Op Parakram). The border areas might not have enough grains available locally to support large number of soldiers. And unless the Government sends supplies in time (which is a big question mark here) the Soldiers/Commanders would be left for hunting for food in remote areas when they really must be fully invested in preparing for things to come. So to me the real question is, the ease of availability rather than how the ration is provided - in material or in money. Does the new system make sure the food items will have best possible availability in all foreseeable situations that might come in future, without putting additional burden on the Soldiers..? Does the Army gets requisite financial rights with them to approve things as and when required quickly or they are at the mercy of some babu who couldn't care less..?

What I was reading is this is only being done for Officers for now, but can be extended for all the Soldiers in Future. I hope someone is GOI is not trying to blindly do 'same same' with this as they are doing with BPL rationing or MNREGA payment.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 10 Aug 2017 12:24

Chetak Sir Bureaucratic interference as a topic should be treated separately. Of late I have had opportunities to see it first hand. The "file-file kheltay hain" stories are not funny. Here we are all uptight and on urgency mode, there an exceptional bureaucrat is our best hope. Everything is running behind schedule. Where is the urgency?

Proposals are "NFAed" (No Further Action), in principle approvals from the Minister himself accorded 02 years ago not moved further and the list goes on. Apathy, disinterest and always the one-upmanship. It is perhaps the biggest failing of the systems we have in India.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 10 Aug 2017 12:35

deejay wrote:Chetak Sir Bureaucratic interference as a topic should be treated separately. Of late I have had opportunities to see it first hand. The "file-file kheltay hain" stories are not funny. Here we are all uptight and on urgency mode, there an exceptional bureaucrat is our best hope. Everything is running behind schedule. Where is the urgency?

Proposals are "NFAed" (No Further Action), in principle approvals from the Minister himself accorded 02 years ago not moved further and the list goes on. Apathy, disinterest and always the one-upmanship. It is perhaps the biggest failing of the systems we have in India.


This is treasonous behaviour.

This is how "control" is maintained and this is how "civilian control" is understood and implemented.

This is also why officers from the forces are not allowed into the MOD on transfer.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby JayS » 10 Aug 2017 13:58

chetak wrote:
deejay wrote:Chetak Sir Bureaucratic interference as a topic should be treated separately. Of late I have had opportunities to see it first hand. The "file-file kheltay hain" stories are not funny. Here we are all uptight and on urgency mode, there an exceptional bureaucrat is our best hope. Everything is running behind schedule. Where is the urgency?

Proposals are "NFAed" (No Further Action), in principle approvals from the Minister himself accorded 02 years ago not moved further and the list goes on. Apathy, disinterest and always the one-upmanship. It is perhaps the biggest failing of the systems we have in India.


This is treasonous behaviour.

This is how "control" is maintained and this is how "civilian control" is understood and implemented.

This is also why officers from the forces are not allowed into the MOD on transfer.


I was thinking exactly the same. This has done significant damage already and no good so far. I guess its high time we let go this insecurity and let the AFs take their fair share in Admin work. I personally feel our National security would take a significant boost if we let AF officers get involved in admin at the highest levels in relevant areas.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 16:55

Indian Army's High Altitude Warfare School exhibits its prowess
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 22996.html

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 16:56

To keep Chinese army at bay, residents of Arunachal Pradesh want army training
http://www.oneindia.com/india/to-keep-c ... 18713.html

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 16:56

Indian Army-like performance appraisal system for bureaucrats?
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 139_1.html

From the bottom of the article. This is what you call sensationalizing news! :roll:

(Only the headline and picture of this report may have been reworked by the Business Standard staff; the rest of the content is auto-generated from a syndicated feed.)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 16:57

Army moves troops of Sukna-Based 33 Corps to India-China border
https://www.thequint.com/india/2017/08/ ... ina-border


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