Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2018 23:27

Ok. Replied to your PM.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2018 23:29

Stop these attacks on the Indian Army
https://www.dailyo.in/voices/defence-mo ... 23035.html

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Mar 2018 23:32

Army Using Obsolete Combat Vehicles As Project Not Cleared For 8 Years
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/army-le ... rs-1827761

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ParGha » 25 Mar 2018 18:17

Rakesh, is the AFV being referenced here the wheeled Tata Kestrel or some other tracked IFV? Are they planning on acquiring both, since there are both wheeled and tracked battalions in the Mech Inf Regt (not sure about the Guards)? If so, what is the tracked AFV called?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 26 Mar 2018 19:12

Worth reading fully.
Don’t Panic, The Army Is Not As Badly Off As It Is Projected
For the first time since the Kargil conflict in 1999, the Indian Army’s ammunition stock, inventory of spares and maintenance of its existing crucial equipment is up to date, thanks to a combination of emergency procurement and revamped management system.

That’s why in late 2016, the Army signed 19 major contracts worth Rs 11,000 crore to replenish about 10 different types of ammunition. Deliveries in three of the bigger contracts have been completed and 13 others would complete the supply progressively by end of the current calendar year, defence sources have revealed. Similarly, the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy too bought ammunition and spares worth over Rs 10,000 crores to make up for years of neglect and indecision.

This has been made possible, according to Lt Gen RR Nimborkar, the Army’s Master General Ordinance (MGO), because of improved coordination and synergy between the MoD and the Army’s decision-makers. The MGO – the man in-charge of ensuring all the in-service equipment held by the entire Indian Army is in top shape – speaking to BharatShakti.in pointed out that for the first time in years, the entire annual budget of over Rs 15,000 crores that his branch handles has been spent even before the financial year has ended. “Thanks to clear directions of the Army Chief Gen Bipin Rawat and quick decision-making by the current defence secretary Mr Sanjay Mitra and his team, we have managed to retrieve the dire situation that we faced for over a decade. This has been made possible because of optimum use of resources and simplification of procedures”, Lt Gen Nimborkar said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 26 Mar 2018 21:01

Fabulous report.

It has always been the MoD process and rules, which has been the bane of our procurement. Not lack of money.

Notice when sensible rules are laid down, with the same "low" 1.7% budget, stock get replenished.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Katare » 26 Mar 2018 21:22

So after bad mouthing ALH and HAL for over a decade they found that the solution always was in their hands-

From above article -
Similarly, a decision to establish two MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) hubs for the Army’s fleet of Advance Light Helicopters (ALH) at Mamun and Missamari has ensured that at least 65 to 70 per cent of the fleet is now available to fly any time against just about 30 to 35 per cent before 2015 because the helicopters had to be sent to Bangalore or the maintenance staff had to travel the long distance to the bases spread across Northern and Eastern Commands.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 27 Mar 2018 00:00

Can we x-post in the MOD thread please. For this shows the whole procurement hurdles were just that.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 27 Mar 2018 00:06


Fantastic news. Just goes to show that synergy can happen between the MoD and the Services, if the need exists. Good job by the PMO as well.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 27 Mar 2018 11:35

Katare wrote:So after bad mouthing ALH and HAL for over a decade they found that the solution always was in their hands-

...


The above is a prime example of the convoluted thinking that has plagued IA and DPSU relations. The above statement makes 02 claims
- IA bad mouthed ALH
- IA was not looking for solutions and the solutions were IAs problems.

Here is what I understand:
- IA was not critical of ALH. They adopted it with open heart. Serviceability was an issue and there was some complaining about it. It is IAF that had complained against ALH.
- The user IA was not experienced with maintenance but IAF was. However, IAFs MRO Setup (BRDs) has come under heavy fire from DPSUs and even here on this forum.
- Now after many years we have a GOI which is trying to find a way. The user and manufacturer have reached a common decision to set up MROs with the user.
-The serviceability should always have been a concern of the manufacturer (HAL) and HAL should have offered this solution long back to IA given they are the ones who make money out of after sales support. Unfortunately, after sales support is not HALs forte. Ask the Nepalese.

However, very conveniently even serviceability and uptime maintenance is being put on User shoulders. Ehsaan mane Fauj ki DPSU ne helicopter de diya. I don't see how the above comment is any better than DDMs reportage that we crib against.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 27 Mar 2018 17:16

https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinindia/Questionnaire%20RSP%20090318.pdf

Ministry of Defence, Government of India is desirous of procuring quantity
550 (approximately) Robotics Surveillance Platform.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 27 Mar 2018 17:31


Hah! :D
Over 80 items like berets, caps, socks, belts, sweaters, sports shoes etc. are now being directly bought from the market. Earlier, OFB used to source these items from the market and used to sell it to the forces at a higher price. For instance, the common combat uniform worn by all the troops was costing the organization four times the market cost! Today thanks to direct sourcing, best quality light rucksacks, knives, sports shoes, track suits and uniform, is being made available to the troops at a much lesser cost. The likely saving: Nearly 1200 crores a year!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Katare » 27 Mar 2018 18:58

deejay wrote:
Katare wrote:So after bad mouthing ALH and HAL for over a decade they found that the solution always was in their hands-

...


The above is a prime example of the convoluted thinking that has plagued IA and DPSU relations. The above statement makes 02 claims
- IA bad mouthed ALH
- IA was not looking for solutions and the solutions were IAs problems.

Here is what I understand:
- IA was not critical of ALH. They adopted it with open heart. Serviceability was an issue and there was some complaining about it. It is IAF that had complained against ALH.
- The user IA was not experienced with maintenance but IAF was. However, IAFs MRO Setup (BRDs) has come under heavy fire from DPSUs and even here on this forum.
- Now after many years we have a GOI which is trying to find a way. The user and manufacturer have reached a common decision to set up MROs with the user.
-The serviceability should always have been a concern of the manufacturer (HAL) and HAL should have offered this solution long back to IA given they are the ones who make money out of after sales support. Unfortunately, after sales support is not HALs forte. Ask the Nepalese.

However, very conveniently even serviceability and uptime maintenance is being put on User shoulders. Ehsaan mane Fauj ki DPSU ne helicopter de diya. I don't see how the above comment is any better than DDMs reportage that we crib against.


Please re read what i wrote, never mentioned any orgnization specifically but i meant and wrote about the whole eco system.

And yes the maintenance and uptime is always is a users responsibility, not manufacturer’s unless you sign a maintainace contract with them. If you want to wait until a machine breaks and than contact manufacturere to fix it one at a time spread out all over the India you get what you got. They have learned their lessons and now finally signing 5 year spare/ordinances orders with OFB, establishing MROs with adequate spare reserves and outright performance base logistics contracts like Rafael deal. This is what our DPSU were asking for decades and user and mod never really did much until very recently.

Just for example whenn I setup a new manufacturing line for a product, i buy the machines, install them and qualify both process and product performance but before transfering it to manufacturing department, one of the requirement is to provide them a list of critical spare parts, lead time for each and how many they would need to store depending upon their OEE (serviceability) requirements. Machine is maintained with internal resources with specific trainings provided upfront and manufacture called/reliade on only very complex situations.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 27 Mar 2018 21:18

Katare wrote:...

Please re read what i wrote, never mentioned any orgnization specifically but i meant and wrote about the whole eco system.

And yes the maintenance and uptime is always is a users responsibility, not manufacturer’s unless you sign a maintainace contract with them. If you want to wait until a machine breaks and than contact manufacturere to fix it one at a time spread out all over the India you get what you got. They have learned their lessons and now finally signing 5 year spare/ordinances orders with OFB, establishing MROs with adequate spare reserves and outright performance base logistics contracts like Rafael deal. This is what our DPSU were asking for decades and user and mod never really did much until very recently.

Just for example whenn I setup a new manufacturing line for a product, i buy the machines, install them and qualify both process and product performance but before transfering it to manufacturing department, one of the requirement is to provide them a list of critical spare parts, lead time for each and how many they would need to store depending upon their OEE (serviceability) requirements. Machine is maintained with internal resources with specific trainings provided upfront and manufacture called/reliade on only very complex situations.


Huh! I can read a million times and draw the same conclusion. You were quoting a news of MRO being set up for IA and said:
Katare wrote:So after bad mouthing ALH and HAL for over a decade they found that the solution always was in their hands-

From above article -
Similarly, a decision to establish two MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) hubs for the Army’s fleet of Advance Light Helicopters (ALH) at Mamun and Missamari has ensured that at least 65 to 70 per cent of the fleet is now available to fly any time against just about 30 to 35 per cent before 2015 because the helicopters had to be sent to Bangalore or the maintenance staff had to travel the long distance to the bases spread across Northern and Eastern Commands.


I am sure you did not mean HAL bad mouthed ALH and HAL so your 'they' surely meant the IA.

To be honest, I expected this line of response from you. I've myself heard such responses from HAL. Hands off. "We gave you the plane. Now its your problem."

IA cannot sign the maintenance support programme which HAL never offered. Can they? IA sure asked for the support which HAL did not have any solution to except get the aircraft to Bangalore.

You say "to fix it one at a time spread out all over the India you get what you got." I guess, IA should have deployed all helicopters at Bangalore. After all, the helicopters were deployed deliberately by IA all over India and HAL could not provide the support. It is IAs responsibility to limit India's boundaries around Bangalore where HAL is located. IA must travel the hard mile but HAL has done its job by making the plane. Thank You HAL. I wish we had choice to go elsewhere. Do you and others who sing peans of HAL understand that IA does not have a choice in the boundaries India have?

Where should the idea of MRO have come from? Why was it not pushed earlier? Who has more experience and knowledge on what maintenance and challenges will IA face with such large scale inductions given that HAL already deals with IAF? Why does then HAL have problems with IAF BRDs? HAL already has plants in Nasik, Kanpur etc to support IAF. They were not alien to this. They could have helped IA reach this solution earlier. IMHO.

But, it is pointless saying all this because HAL and the loyal supporters think differently. Their job ends at HAL airport.

Hence, I say, it is exactly this convoluted thinking that leads to a dysfunctional Services - DPSU relationship.

P.S. - I am not here to out argue you. You can claim whatever as a manufacturer. I as a user should have the option to buy from a manufacturer which provides better support. As a captive user, IA deserves better customer support. Not only IA but other users too. Standing on the other side of this stubborn refusal to see that Services have problems forced out of National necessity and not created by themselves and offering solutions which could help overcome these problems, the manufacturer will win loyal users. Last few years we have a Govt which has succeeded in overcoming this basic disagreement and we already see a more responsive Services (user) and DPSU (manufacturer) relationship.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 27 Mar 2018 21:59

Katare wrote:Just for example whenn I setup a new manufacturing line for a product, i buy the machines, install them and qualify both process and product performance but before transfering it to manufacturing department,

I'm guessing that all the cars you have bought came with no warranty and that you did not need the 1/2/5 year manufacturer's warranty/free service that those pesky car manufacturers were trying to force on you not knowing your personal competence in such matters.

What you do personally is "observer bias" - your own personal experience. Extrapolating that to others you said:
So after bad mouthing ALH and HAL for over a decade they found that the solution always was in their hands


Now you say "they" is an ecosystem and the ecosystem now has found out. Sorry. That is not a very convincing answer because as far as I can tell "they" is Army.

As always "I am good. Others are stupid". I'm referring to myself here and by others I mean "the ecosystem". Lest anyone feel he is being targeted.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 27 Mar 2018 22:48

I am absolutely certain that HAL deputes some engineers to a newly formed squadron of any aircraft it supplies because they will have to help guide the squadron mechanics with routine maintenance procedures. But HAL has in the past been accused of not providing detailed manuals and of not offering a maintenance contract. As regard the latter I believe the reason is because the actual deal is not between army and HAL but between army and MOD with permissions from the finance ministry. Oh but the money comes from the "army budget" controlled by MOD. HAL will give them the lowest possible price which does not include any spares. In fact the exact number of spares required may not even be known and in some cases - like ALH rotor blades - those spares had to be imported before hand. There was one case of an ALH crash from faulty (tail?) rotor blades and HAL pointed out that they would have to import them and the user would have to wait. Lockheed Martin (and Maruti Udyog for that matter) both have great systems for inventory of parts needed and they don't blame the buyer. Or the "ecosystem"

Blaming the user or some nebulous entity called "ecosystem" and absolving HAL is wrong. In fact HAL is part of the ecosystem and the MOD and finance people/bean counters are also the problem. A regards army - whom to blame? The committee that evaluated and selected the Dhruv? The pilots? The mechanics? If the MOD says "buy this, HAL will send engineers" the Army has to cock up and take it. They do - until the first failure occurs. Then they tell the HAL people on the spot. Those people may say "This has to go back to Bengaluru". In Bengaluru they say "This part comes from Germany - the army has to pay 45 lakhs for import. That goes to Army. Army goes to MoD. MOD goes to finance. etc. Then the same part fails again in some other helo. This time germany says "Order 20 of them and we will give it to you at 20 lakhs apiece. Or else pay 60 lakhs for one part". Someone in HAL says "See - army are stupid - if they had paid us to order 20 of them all this would not have occurred"

Badmouthing someone because I am so clever is easy. But unless the story is known why badmouth anyone?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 28 Mar 2018 00:40

http://bharatshakti.in/dont-panic-the-a ... projected/
Don’t Panic, The Army Is Not As Badly Off As It Is Projected

For the first time since the Kargil conflict in 1999, the Indian Army’s ammunition stock, inventory of spares and maintenance of its existing crucial equipment is up to date, thanks to a combination of emergency procurement and revamped management system.Although there are concerns about lower allotment for new acquisitions, the reality is far more reassuring, those who manage and maintain the readiness of the armed forces say. The MoD has already flagged the need for more funds in the coming years (and is hopeful of getting them as and when required) but it has also simultaneously began toensure bang for every buck it spends.For nearly 12-13 years after Kargil, the management of ammunition and spares in the three forces was tardy and below par, resulting in accumulated shortages. The reality began to bite in the immediate aftermath of the Uri attack and the surgical strikes in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (PoK) in September 2016.That’s why in late 2016, the Army signed 19 major contracts worth Rs 11,000 crore to replenish about 10 different types of ammunition. Deliveries in three of the bigger contracts have been completed and 13 others would complete the supply progressively by end of the current calendar year, defence sources have revealed. Similarly, the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy too bought ammunition and spares worth over Rs 10,000 crores to make up for years of neglect and indecision.Additionally, over 75 contracts to buy and stock crucial spares for different equipment worth over Rs 15,000 crore (to be spent over the next four years) have been signed by the Army in 2017-18. These two measures alone have ensured that ammunition stock is up to date and almost 95 per cent of crucial equipment and platforms like Type A vehicles (armoured personnel carriers, army air defence platforms), all guns, UAVs and LORROS–Long-Range Reconnaissance and Observation System–and even general vehicles are on road that is they are serviced and ready for use whenever required. Earlier, at least 40 per cent of these platforms used to be ‘off-road.’
imilarly, a decision to establish two MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) hubs for the Army’s fleet of Advance Light Helicopters (ALH) at Mamun and Missamari has ensured that at least 65 to 70 per cent of the fleet is now available to fly any time against just about 30 to 35 per cent before 2015 because the helicopters had to be sent to Bangalore or the maintenance staff had to travel the long distance to the bases spread across Northern and Eastern Commands.He pointed out to decentralization of financial powers and emphasis on sourcing more equipment and stores from indigenous sources, thanks to the decision made by former defence minister Manohar Parrikar and continued to be supported by the incumbent minister Nirmala Sitharaman, has resulted in improved efficiency.For example, earlier even a simple decision to buy light utility vehicles for the Army had to go to the MoD which meant the entire process used to take a minimum of two years. Now thanks to decentralization, service HQs are able to procure them in six months!Similarly, the decision to source ‘non-core’ items from the local suppliers rather them buying them through the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) as was done earlier, is resulting in massive saving. Over 80 items like berets, caps, socks, belts, sweaters, sports shoes etc. are now being directly bought from the market. Earlier, OFB used to source these items from the market and used to sell it to the forces at a higher price. For instance, the common combat uniform worn by all the troops was costing the organization four times the market cost! Today thanks to direct sourcing, best quality light rucksacks, knives, sports shoes, track suits and uniform, is being made available to the troops at a much lesser cost. The likely saving: Nearly 1200 crores a year!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Katare » 28 Mar 2018 03:02

shiv wrote:
Katare wrote:Just for example whenn I setup a new manufacturing line for a product, i buy the machines, install them and qualify both process and product performance but before transfering it to manufacturing department,

I'm guessing that all the cars you have bought came with no warranty and that you did not need the 1/2/5 year manufacturer's warranty/free service that those pesky car manufacturers were trying to force on you not knowing your personal competence in such matters.

What you do personally is "observer bias" - your own personal experience. Extrapolating that to others you said:
So after bad mouthing ALH and HAL for over a decade they found that the solution always was in their hands


Now you say "they" is an ecosystem and the ecosystem now has found out. Sorry. That is not a very convincing answer because as far as I can tell "they" is Army.

As always "I am good. Others are stupid". I'm referring to myself here and by others I mean "the ecosystem". Lest anyone feel he is being targeted.


You can't confuse a mass produced consumer item sold to an individual with a custom made product for specific user. Even in this case ones who have skills and keep supplies at home would have better uptime than the ones who would call the mechanic to highway to pick up my dead car types.

When you buy a large piece of machinery, it is customer's/owner's responsibility to maintain and repair it on site as per it's usage requirements. Supplier only provides training, guidelines on critical spare-part storages needed for required serviceability and lead-time for the rest. They'll send their people for repair, as soon as they are available, they'll come and diagnose the problem and than they will order the parts, parts would show up after 6-12 weeks because everyone has gone lean (just in time inventory) than they'll come back and put those part in and if that doesn't fix the problem this whole thing would continue to repeat itself. If you want better than this you work with the supplier to create additional infrastructure and stock or outsource the maintenance. Each customer uses product in a different ways and based on that they create maintenance and repair infrastructure. No supplier would take that liability unless he has oversight/control over the asset and that costs a pretty penny.

Warrantees are given for repairing/fixing manufacturing defects on the product and cost of warranty is included in the sales price. Anyhow customer always pays regardless of who invests in the MRO facilities or warrantees or third party repairs. If customer (that is MoD or armed forces) is stingy or pennywise they would suffer the consequences of it.

What you make of the word "they" is your business not mine. Although that "they" of mine includes armed forces in it besides many others. If I had said armed forces people would have come back with - it's MoD that buys/makes decisions not armed forces. If I had used MoD I would be told it's forces so I put out a they not sure what is your objection here?

There is no observers bias either, I am talking about the system that industry follows world wide and it isn't my preference or optional for me or anyone else. That is how business is done in the market place.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Katare » 28 Mar 2018 03:12

shiv wrote:I am absolutely certain that HAL deputes some engineers to a newly formed squadron of any aircraft it supplies because they will have to help guide the squadron mechanics with routine maintenance procedures. But HAL has in the past been accused of not providing detailed manuals and of not offering a maintenance contract. As regard the latter I believe the reason is because the actual deal is not between army and HAL but between army and MOD with permissions from the finance ministry. Oh but the money comes from the "army budget" controlled by MOD. HAL will give them the lowest possible price which does not include any spares. In fact the exact number of spares required may not even be known and in some cases - like ALH rotor blades - those spares had to be imported before hand. There was one case of an ALH crash from faulty (tail?) rotor blades and HAL pointed out that they would have to import them and the user would have to wait. Lockheed Martin (and Maruti Udyog for that matter) both have great systems for inventory of parts needed and they don't blame the buyer. Or the "ecosystem"

Blaming the user or some nebulous entity called "ecosystem" and absolving HAL is wrong. In fact HAL is part of the ecosystem and the MOD and finance people/bean counters are also the problem. A regards army - whom to blame? The committee that evaluated and selected the Dhruv? The pilots? The mechanics? If the MOD says "buy this, HAL will send engineers" the Army has to cock up and take it. They do - until the first failure occurs. Then they tell the HAL people on the spot. Those people may say "This has to go back to Bengaluru". In Bengaluru they say "This part comes from Germany - the army has to pay 45 lakhs for import. That goes to Army. Army goes to MoD. MOD goes to finance. etc. Then the same part fails again in some other helo. This time germany says "Order 20 of them and we will give it to you at 20 lakhs apiece. Or else pay 60 lakhs for one part". Someone in HAL says "See - army are stupid - if they had paid us to order 20 of them all this would not have occurred"

Badmouthing someone because I am so clever is easy. But unless the story is known why badmouth anyone?


Twisting things and trying to write chirpy bits doesn't change the facts. No one absolved HAL, so stop making starwman of your choice to beat-up. Look up the word ecosystem in the dictionary and than come back to talk to me. This kind of BS would derail the thread so back off. I have had enough of your patronizing crap. Bengalury, Germany, Maruti Udyog, ALH crash, finance people, Rs 20lkah, Rs 45 lakh, and army is stupid, Order 20, Lockheed Martin is superior (dishing Indians HAL now are we) what is wrong with you man?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Katare » 28 Mar 2018 03:29

deejay wrote:
Katare wrote:...

Please re read what i wrote, never mentioned any orgnization specifically but i meant and wrote about the whole eco system.

And yes the maintenance and uptime is always is a users responsibility, not manufacturer’s unless you sign a maintainace contract with them. If you want to wait until a machine breaks and than contact manufacturere to fix it one at a time spread out all over the India you get what you got. They have learned their lessons and now finally signing 5 year spare/ordinances orders with OFB, establishing MROs with adequate spare reserves and outright performance base logistics contracts like Rafael deal. This is what our DPSU were asking for decades and user and mod never really did much until very recently.

Just for example whenn I setup a new manufacturing line for a product, i buy the machines, install them and qualify both process and product performance but before transfering it to manufacturing department, one of the requirement is to provide them a list of critical spare parts, lead time for each and how many they would need to store depending upon their OEE (serviceability) requirements. Machine is maintained with internal resources with specific trainings provided upfront and manufacture called/reliade on only very complex situations.


Huh! I can read a million times and draw the same conclusion. You were quoting a news of MRO being set up for IA and said:
Katare wrote:So after bad mouthing ALH and HAL for over a decade they found that the solution always was in their hands-

From above article -


I am sure you did not mean HAL bad mouthed ALH and HAL so your 'they' surely meant the IA.

To be honest, I expected this line of response from you. I've myself heard such responses from HAL. Hands off. "We gave you the plane. Now its your problem."

IA cannot sign the maintenance support programme which HAL never offered. Can they? IA sure asked for the support which HAL did not have any solution to except get the aircraft to Bangalore.

You say "to fix it one at a time spread out all over the India you get what you got." I guess, IA should have deployed all helicopters at Bangalore. After all, the helicopters were deployed deliberately by IA all over India and HAL could not provide the support. It is IAs responsibility to limit India's boundaries around Bangalore where HAL is located. IA must travel the hard mile but HAL has done its job by making the plane. Thank You HAL. I wish we had choice to go elsewhere. Do you and others who sing peans of HAL understand that IA does not have a choice in the boundaries India have?

Where should the idea of MRO have come from? Why was it not pushed earlier? Who has more experience and knowledge on what maintenance and challenges will IA face with such large scale inductions given that HAL already deals with IAF? Why does then HAL have problems with IAF BRDs? HAL already has plants in Nasik, Kanpur etc to support IAF. They were not alien to this. They could have helped IA reach this solution earlier. IMHO.

But, it is pointless saying all this because HAL and the loyal supporters think differently. Their job ends at HAL airport.

Hence, I say, it is exactly this convoluted thinking that leads to a dysfunctional Services - DPSU relationship.

P.S. - I am not here to out argue you. You can claim whatever as a manufacturer. I as a user should have the option to buy from a manufacturer which provides better support. As a captive user, IA deserves better customer support. Not only IA but other users too. Standing on the other side of this stubborn refusal to see that Services have problems forced out of National necessity and not created by themselves and offering solutions which could help overcome these problems, the manufacturer will win loyal users. Last few years we have a Govt which has succeeded in overcoming this basic disagreement and we already see a more responsive Services (user) and DPSU (manufacturer) relationship.


It is not what I said or meant, infect I am arguing for a more robust ecosystem for better product support. The solution was suggested by HAL for years but it was not implemented, once they did implement it, the problem got solved. All this while ALH got bad mouthed by many including armed forces, retd or un named or who not. I have no intention to absolve HAL they could have done more but the armed forces were wrong on this particular instance they should have supported HAL in persuading MoD to invest in support infrastructure. At least the article showed that. HAL was repairing those helicopters but when it was getting piecemeal orders it is not going to invest it's own working capital for expensive spare parts. No commercial entity does it anymore, everyone's gone lean.

What you wrote in P.S. is same thing as what intended to articulate. Same thing is being done with Arjun Mk1, two thirds are grounded because of lack of spares. The article talks about money is now being funneled in stocking up the spares across the spectrum besides stores, so we are finally doing the right thing. Reading anything more in my post is wrong. If I offended your's or anyone else's sensibility, I apologize for it.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 28 Mar 2018 04:44

A good news story gets converted to a whine fest.
Guys stop it.
And share the optimism.
IA has 10 days of war stocks and as the interview was given on route to 20 more days.
Same with IAF and IN.
And two MRO facilities for IA in work.
And cost savings of Rs. 1200 crores for sundries.
And suppliers get paid promptly.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 28 Mar 2018 16:07

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... ID=1526760

Ministry of Defence
New Military Station at Nabagram
Posted On: 28 MAR 2018 3:33PM by PIB Delhi
Nabagram Military Station is planned as a green field project on 250 acres of defence land.Military capacity enhancement of Indian army is a continuous process, which takes into account the existing and emerging challenges / threats. Accordingly, new Military Stations and accretion of manpower is approved from time to time to maintain requisite force levels and operational preparedness of the Indian Army.Post-independence, it has been the policy of Government not to raise any new Regiment based on particular class, caste, creed, community, religion or region.

This information was given by Raksha Rajya Mantri Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to ShriAbhijit Mukherjeein Lok Sabha today.

NAo/Nampi/Rajib/HS



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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 28 Mar 2018 22:58


jaysimha
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 31 Mar 2018 13:46

Image

Ministry of Defence
Girls School in Haryana Renamed as Shaheed Vikas Yadav Girls School
Posted On: 29 MAR 2018 6:37PM by PIB Delhi

Today Haryana State Education Department renamed the Govt Senior Secondary Girls School, Kosli in Rewari district as Shaheed Major Vikas Yadav Senior Secondary School. The initiative has been driven by District Education Board with the support of the family of Late Major Vikas Yadav. The renaming was to pay respect to Major Vikas Yadav of 7 Jat Regiment who had laid his life fighting militants in Jammu and Kashmir. The renaming coincides with his birth anniversary. The event also saw unveiling of statue of the valiant officer by Lt Gen SK Saini, Colonel of the Jat Regiment. To mark the occasion large number of veterans including course mates of the brave officer were also present on this occasion.

******

SRR/Rajib



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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ashthor » 31 Mar 2018 14:11

https://twitter.com/TonboImaging/status ... 2753711104

Our smart thermal weapon sight - EK, minutes before getting stamped, sealed and delivered to the Indian Armed Forces.


Image

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 31 Mar 2018 21:05

jaysimha wrote:Border Surveillance System - DRDO
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/BOSS.pdf


why aren't they going the AESA route yet? and part of its goal is to detect micro drones

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vips » 02 Apr 2018 21:24

Chandu Chavan: A story of trauma and fear across the border.

It is rare in India’s military history that an Indian solider has walked into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK), and has survived. It is also rare that Pakistan has returned a captured Indian solider.

But unlike many of his colleagues, Chandu Chavan – a 23-year-old Indian army jawan from, Bohrivir village of Dhule district (about 330 km from Mumbai) – returned home, four months after being captured by the Pakistan army.

The story dates back to September 30, 2016, when the landline at Chavan’s house kept ringing incessantly. The caller identified himself as an Indian Army personnel and questioned Chavan’s 72-year-old grandfather CD Patil about his whereabouts. Soon Patil found out that Chavan had crossed over to PoK. This call came a day after the Indian special forces started conducting surgical strikes to eliminate terrorists. News of Chavan crossing over to PoK, and the possibility of him being captured by Pakistan’s army eventually led to his grandmother’s death.

Crossing over…
Meanwhile, nobody knew what happened to Chavan. Recollecting how every second of his captivity in Pakistan felt like a year, Chavan said, “It was still dark when I crossed the border, and walked into a village in PoK.” Civilians in the village who spotted him shut their doors. “The fear in those villagers was palpable. I was in my army fatigues and was carrying a gun,” said Chavan. It did not take long for him to realise that he was being watched. “It is not possible to explain the fear one feels when your capture by a hostile army is inevitable,” he said. His fear became real when he received a smack on his ears, fell down and his vision started blurring. Ears still ringing, all he could initially spot were tall men in dark Pathani suits with AK-47s.

Chavan then heard a man tell his senior counterpart – “Janab, Hindustani sipahi hai. Isko yahin maar do” (Sir, he is an Indian solider. Let us kill him here only). “I felt that those were the last moments of my life,” recalls Chavan. But the senior army personnel intervened and warned the soldiers of civilian presence in the vicinity. “A personnel asked everyone to communicate in sign languages as I was a solider,” said Chavan. Chavan believes they did not kill him as there were civilians around. Handcuffed and tied up, he was taken to a post. “They did not have any fence like the ones we have to mark the LoC. I saw graves around that post and Pakistan’s flag. I could also hear sounds of firing from both sides of the border,” Chavan added.

Few minutes later, some army officers walked into the post in civil dress to check on him and thus began his four-month ordeal of tackling interrogations, severe physical pain caused by numerous injections, nails being pulled out and cigarette butts being put into his back, to the point that h nearly lost his mind.

On the dark side…
A few hours into his capture, Chavan was asked to wear a Pathani suit, his head was covered with a black cloth, and was asked to get inside a vehicle. “While we were travelling, I told my captors that I wanted to urinate. They stopped the vehicle, and one of them pulled down my pants, and asked me to urinate,” he said. But before he could do so, one of the personnel hit him hard asking him to finish fast. The blow was so painful that he could not urinate. Chavan sensed that escape was almost impossible. Soon they reached what looked like another army post. It was time for him to be interrogated. “I lied to them, but they did not believe me,” said Chavan who was then subjected to utmost brutality. “They used to keep hitting me till I’d lose consciousness. And then they would administer me medicines,” he said.


It is rare in India’s military history that an Indian solider has walked into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK), and has survived. It is also rare that Pakistan has returned a captured Indian solider.

But unlike many of his colleagues, Chandu Chavan – a 23-year-old Indian army jawan from, Bohrivir village of Dhule district (about 330 km from Mumbai) – returned home, four months after being captured by the Pakistan army.

The story dates back to September 30, 2016, when the landline at Chavan’s house kept ringing incessantly. The caller identified himself as an Indian Army personnel and questioned Chavan’s 72-year-old grandfather CD Patil about his whereabouts. Soon Patil found out that Chavan had crossed over to PoK. This call came a day after the Indian special forces started conducting surgical strikes to eliminate terrorists. News of Chavan crossing over to PoK, and the possibility of him being captured by Pakistan’s army eventually led to his grandmother’s death.

Crossing over…
Meanwhile, nobody knew what happened to Chavan. Recollecting how every second of his captivity in Pakistan felt like a year, Chavan said, “It was still dark when I crossed the border, and walked into a village in PoK.” Civilians in the village who spotted him shut their doors. “The fear in those villagers was palpable (TFTA Pakis browning their shalwars at the site of just one Indian soldier :D ) . I was in my army fatigues and was carrying a gun,” said Chavan. It did not take long for him to realise that he was being watched. “It is not possible to explain the fear one feels when your capture by a hostile army is inevitable,” he said. His fear became real when he received a smack on his ears, fell down and his vision started blurring. Ears still ringing, all he could initially spot were tall men in dark Pathani suits with AK-47s.

Chavan then heard a man tell his senior counterpart – “Janab, Hindustani sipahi hai. Isko yahin maar do” (Sir, he is an Indian solider. Let us kill him here only). “I felt that those were the last moments of my life,” recalls Chavan. But the senior army personnel intervened and warned the soldiers of civilian presence in the vicinity. “A personnel asked everyone to communicate in sign languages as I was a solider,” said Chavan. Chavan believes they did not kill him as there were civilians around. Handcuffed and tied up, he was taken to a post. “They did not have any fence like the ones we have to mark the LoC. I saw graves around that post and Pakistan’s flag. I could also hear sounds of firing from both sides of the border,” Chavan added.

Few minutes later, some army officers walked into the post in civil dress to check on him and thus began his four-month ordeal of tackling interrogations, severe physical pain caused by numerous injections, nails being pulled out and cigarette butts being put into his back, to the point that he nearly lost his mind.

On the dark side…
A few hours into his capture, Chavan was asked to wear a Pathani suit, his head was covered with a black cloth, and was asked to get inside a vehicle. “While we were travelling, I told my captors that I wanted to urinate. They stopped the vehicle, and one of them pulled down my pants, and asked me to urinate,” he said. But before he could do so, one of the personnel hit him hard asking him to finish fast. The blow was so painful that he could not urinate. Chavan sensed that escape was almost impossible. Soon they reached what looked like another army post. It was time for him to be interrogated. “I lied to them, but they did not believe me,” said Chavan who was then subjected to utmost brutality. “They used to keep hitting me till I’d lose consciousness. And then they would administer me medicines,” he said.

He was constantly questioned by the Pakistan army about the surgical strikes. “They were clearly baffled by the surgical strikes,” he said. The pain from the incessant torture was such that Chavan had almost decided to give up his life. “I told them that I entered PoK because I wanted to avenge the attack in Uri in 2016 on my own. I said this because I thought they would kill me,” said Chavan. However, his answers only fetched him more blows and in one instance they even tried to pull his nails out. “They would hit me on my heels, and tell me that I would be put in a cell full of bugs.”

“They tried to wear me down mentally…”
He was constantly questioned by the Pakistan army about the surgical strikes. “They were clearly baffled by the surgical strikes,” he said. The pain from the incessant torture was such that Chavan had almost decided to give up his life. “I told them that I entered PoK because I wanted to avenge the attack in Uri in 2016 on my own. I said this because I thought they would kill me,” said Chavan. However, his answers only fetched him more blows and in one instance they even tried to pull his nails out. “They would hit me on my heels, and tell me that I would be put in a cell full of bugs.”

Chavan was chained, and the cell he was put in did not have lights. “I could not even get a piece of glass to commit suicide, and escape the agonising physical and mental torture.” The Pakistani armed forces tried to mentally wear him down. “They told me that when there is a war, India always fielded Muslims on the front and that Indian soldiers were not treated well. They would talk with hatred about Raj Thackeray and about our Prime Minister to try and break me down,” said Chavan. He added that the Pakistani nationals were weary of Modi.

Since he did not break down that easily, a team of Pakistani soldiers would walk into his cell every day carrying a rubber belt which was attached to a wooden handle, and hit him incessantly.

“I told them to kill me. But they kept asking how many commandos came for the surgical attacks.” When they did not get conclusive answers, they showed him pictures of torture, where people’s ears and tongues were chopped off.

Unable to take the beating, Chavan started replying in Marathi, and he believes that they thought he went mad. “I was starting to lose my mind, and so I asked them to give me the Bhagwad Gita to read. But they denied me even that. I was scared and I had lost all hopes,” said Chavan.

He would scratch on the walls, and visualise his family. “With nothing left to call upon, I started performing Namaz. I just wanted God in some form or another,” he said.

“Every time they wanted to move me to another post, they would give me injections which made me feel drowsy. This was also the point when they would make my videos by asking me to speak against India. I think they did this with everyone. Even Kulbhushan would have gone through the same,” said Chavan.

Meanwhile diplomatic channels on both sides of the border opened up with Subhash Bhamre, the minister of state (MoS) for Defence and the guardian minister of Dhule assuring Chavan’s family of his return. Both the armies negotiated with each other for months in the midst of the raging discontentment between the two nations.

Homecoming....
On his last day in Pakistan, Chavan was given a shave and a haircut. One of the Pakistan army personnel told him, “Tujhe halal karne leke ja rahe hai” (You are being taken to be killed), and a black cloth was put on his face. It took him quite a while to understand what was happening when he was handed over to the Indian Army at Wagah Border. “It was the worst time to be in that situation. The Pakistani army thought I was part of the team that conducted surgical strikes, and had strayed away,” said Chavan.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 03 Apr 2018 23:35

His INSAS Rifle and magazines also went over.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 04 Apr 2018 00:52

The question that is not answered, why did he go. Has he been discharged from service?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Apr 2018 12:51

At that at end of 30 Sept 2016 it was reported he walked off in anger after fighting with his Commander over leave. He has been Court Martialled by the Army.

I think the problem is our History books have hidden the Pakistani and British atrocities, this means even people who join the Army as first generation personal are unaware of nature of Pakis.

https://www.ibtimes.co.in/indian-army-sentences-soldier-2-months-prison-crossing-loc-during-2016-surgical-strikes-747078

https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/6781-37-rr-soldier-was-angry-crossed-loc-after-tiff-senior

“See, he had a quarrel with his superior. In a fit of rage, he walked across the LoC in his uniform, with his weapon,” a senior official said on the condition of anonymity. It is learnt that the officers are unhappy about this. “He could have walked off within our country itself,” an officer said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 04 Apr 2018 17:03

Aditya_V wrote:
“See, he had a quarrel with his superior. In a fit of rage, he walked across the LoC in his uniform, with his weapon,” a senior official said on the condition of anonymity. It is learnt that the officers are unhappy about this. “He could have walked off within our country itself,” an officer said.

Sometimes idiots do get through despite the screening...however, the company/platoon commander/NCOs/other jawans should have kept a tab on him. Quite a bit of systemic failure as well. He is very lucky to be alive.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 04 Apr 2018 18:05

So the chap got more than he bargained for.. I dont think he will asking for holidays from anyone.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby rsingh » 05 Apr 2018 21:22

I'd like come back to the question of diet of a Jawan. I remember a pic of a Jawan siting with one onion , two puri and pickle during Kargil time. There is a video of poor Jawans (at Siachin camp) warming up smalish prantha and making ketchup ice cream. Langars look unorganised and unhygienic.........looks like poor mens wedding preparation. Officers mess look clean and it is clean (have tried myself). Oh I never knew that chinese food is so famous in Indian Armed forces. They had two menus: Chinese food (big choice) and Indian food ( very small choice. And why you see jawans eating puris? It is very bad for digestion.
When will we have a standardised, scientifically proved diet plan for jawans ? I mean parntha and ketchup for Siachin glacier.......seriously a big joke.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Anoop » 05 Apr 2018 21:49

Actually that program clearly emphasized that appetite drops drastically at those altitudes and the only way that soldiers - jawans and officers - eat enough is by taste. That means that they will revert to 'comfort' food. Smell and sights have a lot to do with working up an apetite. High calorie items like chocolates are not very popular.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 06 Apr 2018 16:03

rsingh wrote:I'd like come back to the question of diet of a Jawan. I remember a pic of a Jawan siting with one onion , two puri and pickle during Kargil time. There is a video of poor Jawans (at Siachin camp) warming up smalish prantha and making ketchup ice cream. Langars look unorganised and unhygienic.........looks like poor mens wedding preparation. Officers mess look clean and it is clean (have tried myself). Oh I never knew that chinese food is so famous in Indian Armed forces. They had two menus: Chinese food (big choice) and Indian food ( very small choice. And why you see jawans eating puris? It is very bad for digestion.
When will we have a standardised, scientifically proved diet plan for jawans ? I mean parntha and ketchup for Siachin glacier.......seriously a big joke.


Check out Defence Food Research Labs. A lot of R&D work has happened in this field.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs1/DFRL ... mepage.jsp

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 09 Apr 2018 23:27

http://www.timesnownews.com/india/artic ... dia/215639
Hope this is not old, it appeared in today's TOI. The BPJ's are made in India.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 10 Apr 2018 09:10

came in NDTV also
looks like no combination of fabric can stop 7.62mm bullets and ceramic or metal inserts are used.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Austin » 10 Apr 2018 09:55

First look at the Indian Army’s Level III+ BPJ. Boron Carbide Ceramic panels. Neck and groin protection. 10.4 kgs. can stop 7.62x51 ball, 7.62x39 AP, 5.56x45 steel core.

Image


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jaysimha » 12 Apr 2018 11:29

Ministry of Defence09-April, 2018 18:52 IST
Government Contracts World Class Bullet Proof Jackets for Army Under ‘Make In India’ Initiative

A major contract through capital procurement route, for procurement of 1,86,138 Bullet Proof Jackets (BPJs) has been signed. The impending requirement of the Indian Army for effective BPJs, has been met after successful conduct of stringent field evaluation trials.

The contracted BPJs have contemporary and state-of-the-art specifications with added protectional level and coverage area. These ergonomically designed BPJs have modular parts, thereby providing immense protection and flexibility to soldiers operating in different operational situations ranging from long distance patrolling to high risk room intervention scenarios. The new BPJs will provide 360 degree protection to the soldier in combat, including from latest hard steel core bullets.

The concerns for BPJs for the Indian Army, have been raised at the highest levels, even in the civil domain and media reports amidst heightened security situation, along the borders and in the hinterland in the disturbed areas. The provisioning of this operationally urgent and very critical equipment concerning personal ballistic protection, will boost the confidence of the soldier and provide moral ascendency to security forces.

The case was processed as a ‘Buy Indian’. The provision of these new BPJs was done by Indian manufacturers who were successful in the trials. This has given an impetus to the ‘Make in India’ initiative of the Government, and provides confidence that the Indian Industry is capable of fulfilling the requirements of Indian Army for its personal protective equipment.



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