Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

negi · Post by **negi** » 21 Oct 2014 09:14

People are mixing things and issues here regimental divisions based on regions are a different topic technically speaking it does not hurt us because it is not as if IA recruits from Garhwal and KUmaon and not from say Kerala or TN they have Madras sappers as well as the Dogras . What I was talking about is traditions which were built for the British empire for instance use of the St George's cross on the IN flag wtf has that to do with the INDIAN NAVY if that is ok with people here then why shouldn't we have the Union jack as our national flag with say ashok chakra in center it does not affect our GDP or poverty rate does it ? Similarly promoting kinship when recruiting in the forces , even to this day kinship is actively promoted if it is indeed good and a desirable thing then why are some bright bulbs here blaming politicos for making politics a family business ? These are the traditions which worked for the British , simply because if someone's father was a loyal servant in British army the likelihood that his son will follow his footsteps was high, this was primarily a lesson learnt from 1857 , can someone tell me how does this in anyway enhance IA's fighting capability ? It is a sort of a reservation system in place there are no two ways about it. The elites want to keep it that way since it is a nice safe option for their kids and the blind supporters pass it to civilians as OLQ.

Throwing in a point about how Gurkhas wear their hat and doing an == is a tangential point. No one is saying that we need to call our general Senapati since General and other ranks are from British system , understanding the context and significance of traditions and their relation with history is important.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 21 Oct 2014 09:30

Ankit Desai wrote:
Ajay Sharma wrote:Any guesses to the war cry of the MLI...??
War Cry: Bol Shri Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Ki Jai (Say Victory To King Shivaji).

The Maratha Light Infantry

-Ankit

I also believed it was Har Har Mahadev simpliciter but then read that it is actually both "Bol Shri Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Ki Jai" followed by "Har Har Mahadev".

But then is Har Har Mahadev, simpliciter, available. In the sense that it is not begin currently used.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Oct 2014 09:58

^^^negi - you're talking basis half baked information.

Kinship still matters - not that it is something actively encouraged as a policy as far as recruitment is concerned. It could happen by way of recruitment team from a particular regiment being sympathetic to son/brother/nephew of a former soldier from the same regiment. But that is a subjective aspect.

Kinship works in a manner of attracting contemporary and next generation into the recruitment process. And creates a sense of collective identity and ownership. Let me quote two examples:

1. During Kargil, some men (Rajput Regiment/Rifles) from a village in western UP had deserted and run back; the villagers knew that the battalion was upfront (there were others from battalion in the village) and therefore, these soldiers could not have come back on leave. They rightfully concluded the desertion part. And the villagers not only informed the police but also ostracized the families because of dishonor it had brought on the village. When soldier(s) know that their acts and deeds will percolate down to their villages - courtesy the presence of other soldiers from the region - they're that much likely to behave better.

2. Nitin Gokhale quotes a incident in his book on Siachen - IIRC, there was a Kumaon Regiment deployed in Siachen during peak conflict. A Company Commander received a word that couple of soldiers from a forward post which had seen intense fighting in last couple of days wanted to see him. He thought that they'll ask for being rotated out as they'd been in thick of action w/o respite. But it turned out to be a different reason all-together: they wanted a young soldier fresh from regimental center to be rotated out. Reason: One or two members (I don't remember correctly) from his family had been killed/injured in action on Siachen in preceding days and he was the only male member left in the extended family. The senior soldiers wanted him to be rotated out. The officer made an offer to rotate all of them out but they refused - 'Sahab, Paltan ki Izzat ka sawal hai'. The young soldier was moved out. And as luck would've had it, the whole post was wiped out with soldiers therein during fighting over next couple of days. That is what kinship does.

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Coming to this ever present debate on 'Paltan Ki Izzat' - I remember Shiv giving a very nice explanation.

The aspect about fighting for your country is already taken care of - the fact that a soldier is an Indian is the basic foundation. The 'Us and them' argument is already over by virtue of a person's birth in India. A soldier from Maharashtra or Tamil Nadu or Bihar or Assam does not need to join Army to know about his national identity. The soldier takes oath to fight for and defend his motherland.

But what after this? You need some motivating factor, a sense of collective belonging to keep men together, something which is tangible and immediately visible and can be reinforced in every day life. That is where the concept of regiment comes in. Traditions and history is what defines and drives these men. It is tangible and something they're aware and conscious of. And they'll ensure that they don't do anything to tarnish this image and history.

As one serving soldier said - We look up to our predecessors and professional ancestors...because apart from this, we don't have anything else...

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2014 11:09

+ 1 Rohit

Negi, there is something called a parental claim when you pass out from IMA or OTA. That means if your dad had served in one unit you could join it. Its a very important bond. Its hard to explain if you have not served but it is very very important. As a pahari you would know this

Now can we please move on.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Oct 2014 11:55

^^^There are two types of parental claims or PC, as it's known as. PC-1 - If you're father has commanded a particular battalion of a regiment or if he was Subedar Major (SM - highest rank for a JCO and one who works directly with Unit CO), then every effort is made to ensure that you join the VERY SAME battalion.

PC-2: When your father has served in a particular regiment; you will get the same regiment. Battalion of the regiment may or may not be the same.

Anecdote: Someone I know DID NOT opt to exercise PC-1. Reason: some of men he had grown around as a child in the battalion were senior JCOs including the battalion SM. When he went to the battalion during his training days at the IMA, they still treated him as a 'kid' and son of 'their ex-CO sahab'! That was it for him...he did not want to be treated as a kid and opted for a different regiment.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2014 13:12

So the 'bahiyas' were now now senior JCOs but still called the sahab bhaiya ! Hahaha. Would you mind me asking which regt his dad was from and what did he opt for ? Maybe on pm if you prefer ?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2014 13:15

Karan ji, we all agree I think.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 21 Oct 2014 14:33

Akshay Kapoor wrote:+ 1 Rohit

Negi, there is something called a parental claim when you pass out from IMA or OTA. That means if your dad had served in one unit you could join it. Its a very important bond. Its hard to explain if you have not served but it is very very important. As a pahari you would know this

Now can we please move on.

This may be slightly off track. But i must share this information. David Niven, the famous Hollywood actor (Prisoner of Zenda, Guns of Navarone etc.) writes in his autobiography (The Moon is a Balloon) that on his completion of training at Sandhurst, he was to join his father's regiment. His father's friends in the regiment (David niven's dad lost his life in the battle of Gallipoli in 1914) had asured him that they would take care of it. But he still had to give three preferences, in the application form for joining the British Army, of the regiments he would like to join. He wrote down Scots Guards as first preference because that is the regiment that his father served under. Then he gave his second preference as Fusilliers. He was at a loss to come up with a third name. In any case it seemed a pointless exercise as his father's friends had assured him commission in the Scots Guards. Out of a sense of mischief he wrote downhis third preference as 'anything but the Scottish Highland Regiment'. As he mentions in his book while all other Scottish regiments had kilts as their ceremonial dress, the Highland Regiment wore the trews. Someone in the war Office didn't appreciate Niven's sense of humour. he was promptly assigned to the Scottish highland Regiment!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Oct 2014 14:36

Akshay Kapoor wrote:So the 'bahiyas' were now now senior JCOs but still called the sahab bhaiya ! Hahaha. Would you mind me asking which regt his dad was from and what did he opt for ? Maybe on pm if you prefer ?

A JAK Light Infantry battalion; the fellow had opted for Para (SF) but ended up in Bihar. DS pulled him into his battalion. Got SF probation offer post joining the paltan as well but then CO sahab ensured it did not happen.

vikassh · Post by **vikassh** » 21 Oct 2014 18:03

rohitvats wrote:^^^negi - you're talking basis half baked information.

Kinship still matters - not that it is something actively encouraged as a policy as far as recruitment is concerned. It could happen by way of recruitment team from a particular regiment being sympathetic to son/brother/nephew of a former soldier from the same regiment. But that is a subjective aspect.

Kinship works in a manner of attracting contemporary and next generation into the recruitment process. And creates a sense of collective identity and ownership. Let me quote two examples:

1. During Kargil, some men (Rajput Regiment/Rifles) from a village in western UP had deserted and run back; the villagers knew that the battalion was upfront (there were others from battalion in the village) and therefore, these soldiers could not have come back on leave. They rightfully concluded the desertion part. And the villagers not only informed the police but also ostracized the families because of dishonor it had brought on the village. When soldier(s) know that their acts and deeds will percolate down to their villages - courtesy the presence of other soldiers from the region - they're that much likely to behave better.

2. Nitin Gokhale quotes a incident in his book on Siachen - IIRC, there was a Kumaon Regiment deployed in Siachen during peak conflict. A Company Commander received a word that couple of soldiers from a forward post which had seen intense fighting in last couple of days wanted to see him. He thought that they'll ask for being rotated out as they'd been in thick of action w/o respite. But it turned out to be a different reason all-together: they wanted a young soldier fresh from regimental center to be rotated out. Reason: One or two members (I don't remember correctly) from his family had been killed/injured in action on Siachen in preceding days and he was the only male member left in the extended family. The senior soldiers wanted him to be rotated out. The officer made an offer to rotate all of them out but they refused - 'Sahab, Paltan ki Izzat ka sawal hai'. The young soldier was moved out. And as luck would've had it, the whole post was wiped out with soldiers therein during fighting over next couple of days. That is what kinship does.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coming to this ever present debate on 'Paltan Ki Izzat' - I remember Shiv giving a very nice explanation.

The aspect about fighting for your country is already taken care of - the fact that a soldier is an Indian is the basic foundation. The 'Us and them' argument is already over by virtue of a person's birth in India. A soldier from Maharashtra or Tamil Nadu or Bihar or Assam does not need to join Army to know about his national identity. The soldier takes oath to fight for and defend his motherland.

But what after this? You need some motivating factor, a sense of collective belonging to keep men together, something which is tangible and immediately visible and can be reinforced in every day life. That is where the concept of regiment comes in. Traditions and history is what defines and drives these men. It is tangible and something they're aware and conscious of. And they'll ensure that they don't do anything to tarnish this image and history.

As one serving soldier said - We look up to our predecessors and professional ancestors...because apart from this, we don't have anything else...

+1 Rohit.

If we see the employee referral programs run by corporate sector (MNC+Indian companies) then they also use the same underlying concept. An existing employee referring some one because he thinks he/she can fit in the position and culture of company. Also, no one wants to refer a rotten apple so as to destroy their reputation at the firm.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Oct 2014 09:20

Rohit you missed my point what you are talking about is relationship between two people within the service i.e. camaraderie which is a desirable trait what I am talking about is nepotism which is as rampant in the forces as any government body the key difference is in case of latter it is kind of legitimized during the selection process. My information is based on my personal experience with the SSB process and not some half baked fact . On the second day post-screening candidate needs to fill in a form furbishing rank and name of his/her father that is where gol-maal happens. 90% of men from my village are in the Army the recruitment in Doon or Lansdowne is not clean for a lot of people clear the physical tests from the hills but people who make the merit list are the one's with connections (some of them are my close relatives).

The idea of recruiting a son if father was already an afsar goes back to the British period and it has not changed much since the time my grand-father was in the British Army , 3 generations from both sides of my family have served across the 3 services the system works for sure because it is authoritarian but it suffers from systemic deficiencies which are not addressed because of institutional inertia as well as safeguards interests of those who are already onboard the bus.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Oct 2014 10:08

Negi, I am sorry you couldn't make it through the SSB. Its our loss. But that does not mean the process is not good. I know of a brilliant officer a Garhwali again who tried the SSB for NDA and IMA but did not make it. He finally made it in the OTA. Absolutely true blood pucca fauji. I also know of idiots who made it in the first shot in NDA. No family connections in either case. A dear friend is an absolutely pucca fauji by heart and his dad was in the army. This guy is made to be in the fauj (much better than me) but tried the IMA, OTA multiple times, then even the TA. Couldn't make it. The TA story is especially sad. One of the officers on the board took a dislike to him. A loss to us for sure.

There are subjective elements in it like any other screening process but calling your failure to make it nepotism is very unfair. If you had tried for the civil services or IITs or IIMs or Harvard and not made it would you have criticized that process too ?

What we are talking of is PC AFTER being selected and completing the training. Its for regt selection not for entry into the army !!!

Please try to be objective.

Re jawan recruitment, there are sometimes issues there which are addressed when they come up. But that has nothing to do with nepotism or the regt system or traditions, it is another issue altogether.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Oct 2014 10:34

^ IITs/IIMs have an exam you clear it you make it you know why you failed or what areas you messed up with , SSB is not the same you could finish all your tasks and field tests in lowest time but still won't make it for no known reason . Why SSB take the IAS selection too it is also very similar you clear the exams with flying colours only to be screened out based on an interview which obviously is a subjective thing . The final say is in hands of people who judge people based on personal bias/thought process that itself is not objective.

I am not bringing in regiment topic here it is a different aspect which is not related to the issue which I highlighted , my argument is that process has not been made transparent since the British times and that is what I refer to as an example of upholding traditions/processes which are archaic and counter productive.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Oct 2014 11:07

The IIMs have a Group Discussion and an Interview. Pass rate at GD and interview stage is less than 40%. Even in the written exam you dont know where you messed up becuase your answer sheet is not returned to you !!! Come on Negi, at least use facts.

Try getting an MBA overseas. You need essays, recommendations and interviews !! I got through the SSB. Many years later I almost maxed GMAT but couldn't make it to any US university as my essay writing and interviewing skills were not absolutely top notch. Also I did not have the right recommendatons. Guess what ? I don't criticize them for not taking me.

I think you are too coloured by your own experience to be objective.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Oct 2014 11:40

^GD is an open process people who are honest know how they faired against the competition , do not equate that with an one on one interview specially when you know that when going into a GD with 99.9 percentile your chances are higher than say someone with 92 percentile , in a SSB the scoring system is not transparent people who fail group tasks can make it through while someone who must have finished all within time might not that does not happen in other places . I am not saying that the process is ineffective what I am saying is it is opaque and hence is more susceptible to be gamed . That is why people at times have to go through 4 SSBs to get through like my brother did and every time they don't do anything different they get recommended primarily based on interview panel which is not objective , a GD in contrast requires people to participate and air views on a common topic everyone can see who is making sense and who is not that does not happen in an interview .
Again in case of say IIMs how many people in top percentile you know do not make it afaik everyone who is say above 97-98 percentile makes it to IIM with SSB that is no guarantee your showing in entrance , screening , group tasks are not made public so for all practical purposes as a candidate you know how others faired against you so you know when someone makes it despite not completing a task . With IIMs or say even IIT there cannot be a scenario where someone who failed a main test get a seat while one making it through the tests misses out yes college might differ based on work experience . As for the exam the beauty of writing an objective paper like CAT/Jee is you know how you did for you can pretty accurately calculate how much you scored in each section and then tally it against the actual marks which you get , in a SSB scores of various rounds are never disclosed .

As for opinions being coloured that is true for everyone but I am not making up facts here , you seem to be making comparisons between a GD round in a IIM to a SSB interview which in first place is not apples to apples case , It is like a conversation on this thread where everyone knows what I or others are saying and if we are making sense at all , one on one interview in a closed room is not the same specially when there is no formal scoring for prior rounds , now that is a fact whether the process is fair or not is obviously a matter of opinion depending on which side of the fence one sits on.

vikassh · Post by **vikassh** » 22 Oct 2014 13:24

negi wrote:^GD is an open process people who are honest know how they faired against the competition , do not equate that with an one on one interview specially when you know that when going into a GD with 99.9 percentile your chances are higher than say someone with 92 percentile , in a SSB the scoring system is not transparent people who fail group tasks can make it through while someone who must have finished all within time might not that does not happen in other places . I am not saying that the process is ineffective what I am saying is it is opaque and hence is more susceptible to be gamed . That is why people at times have to go through 4 SSBs to get through like my brother did and every time they don't do anything different they get recommended primarily based on interview panel which is not objective , a GD in contrast requires people to participate and air views on a common topic everyone can see who is making sense and who is not that does not happen in an interview .
Again in case of say IIMs how many people in top percentile you know do not make it afaik everyone who is say above 97-98 percentile makes it to IIM with SSB that is no guarantee your showing in entrance , screening , group tasks are not made public so for all practical purposes as a candidate you know how others faired against you so you know when someone makes it despite not completing a task . With IIMs or say even IIT there cannot be a scenario where someone who failed a main test get a seat while one making it through the tests misses out yes college might differ based on work experience . As for the exam the beauty of writing an objective paper like CAT/Jee is you know how you did for you can pretty accurately calculate how much you scored in each section and then tally it against the actual marks which you get , in a SSB scores of various rounds are never disclosed .

As for opinions being coloured that is true for everyone but I am not making up facts here , you seem to be making comparisons between a GD round in a IIM to a SSB interview which in first place is not apples to apples case , It is like a conversation on this thread where everyone knows what I or others are saying and if we are making sense at all , one on one interview in a closed room is not the same specially when there is no formal scoring for prior rounds , now that is a fact whether the process is fair or not is obviously a matter of opinion depending on which side of the fence one sits on.

Negi, all good selection programs across globe (including SSB) keep on conducting research on them to keep them relevant. For armed forces this task is taken care by DIPR (http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/DIPR/E ... mebody.jsp). Psychologists call this process as test validation. In particular SSB process is called as an Assessment centre approach which is one of the best ways of selecting talent in organizations. Why they are considered best...because you have multiple exercises to assess relevant competencies (office like qualities) required for the job. Plus you have multiple assessors doing the same. In assessment center process there is a final step where in all assessors need to come to one table and share their findings. In case if their assessment match then no issue or otherwise they try to reach a final conclusion. I believe it happens on the last day of SSB. In measurement science any process with multiple validations/techniques is always considered as best hence this repute for assessment centers.

Now lets talk about your IIM point. Psychologists across globe have proven through studies that to be successful in a job you need cognitive abilities and as well as emotional maturity. CAT test of IIM measures the prior (cognitive aspect). But GDs and interview assess later aspect where the institute is concerned about dimensions like leadership, team work, emotional maturity etc. It is quite possible some one can score 99 percentile in the written test but fail the later two steps. This is true for armed forces as well.

Also, good interview and GD programs develop behaviors for assessors through a scientific process which they should observe during the process. Assessors are also taught to probe well before reaching any final conclusion. It is true for SSBs and IIM process as well.

Finally, like you even I appeared for SSB way back in 1997 and was rejected. I had similar opinion about the process. But later on when I learned the whole process through my interactions with friends from DIPR, my opinion changed. One retired scientist once shared with me that they preserver answer sheets (psychological tests) of all who clear SSB for keep on conducting longitudinal studies. This type of rigor is not there in case of IIMs also.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Oct 2014 13:52

^ I am not questioning the efficacy or quality of tests which SSB subjects it's candidates to all I am saying is that it is not transparent , that DIPR methodology you talk about no where says that performance rating not be displayed or showed to candidates .After the initial screening the candidates are subjected to just 2 rounds of written tests iirc one is objective another is where one has write a note after seeing a very faded sketch and use one's imagination. After that there are GTs and scenario based tasks there is no written record of these unless someone goes back to a room and notes it down later all from memory again I am not questioning these , all I am saying is candidates don't know where one stands there are people who finish GTs and scenarios pretty fast now that is what all can see and verify . To this day go out and ask anyone who has appeared for SSB the general consensus is the final interview round is the make or break barrier .

My initial post regarding this aspect was primarily about the fact that these processes were opaque in British times and they continue to be so to this date . Why do you think that everyone in India thinks that getting into a gobmint job be it the services, IAS or even PWD is tough ? No it is not because the exam is tougher than say ISI's test or even JEE but because process is not transparent.

vikassh · Post by **vikassh** » 22 Oct 2014 15:04

Sharing performance feedback on a selection test is a prerogative of an organization. They can avoid it because of security concern around selection process. They can share the score or they can not do it. But it does not equates/leads to a wrong selection system. I shared information about checks and balances being used by armed forces/DRDO-DIPR to ensure that quality in hiring is maintained by using objective and scientific tools.

The faded sketch test that you are talking about is known as Thematic Apperception Test or TAT. And again it is quite popular test in assessment world. I would also like to share that TAT is just one of the test. Faded sketches are intentional as well. TAT is followed by a word association test (WAT) and a situational judgement test (SJT). One's overall score is calculated on the basis of these tests.

I would also like to share that each assessor before hitting a SSB needs to undergo a 6 month long training which consists of class room training as well as field observation. Once you've successfully completed all the steps then only you can become an assessor. There are further checks and balances that I won't like to get into. A six month training is sufficient for an intelligent human being to remember behaviors and then later on mark them in an observation sheet.

The difficulty that you talk about for govt. jobs can also be result of demand supply gap. Less jobs but more aspirants. And I know tons of candidate providing similar feedback about selection processes of MNCs as well

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 24 Oct 2014 22:31

Folks,
Did NaMo declare that one rank, one pension promise had been fulfilled? This article claims he did

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=110773

As far as I know, it has not been accomplished yet. Insufficient funds has been cited for inability to implement. Or am I wrong and it has been implemented? Also, is there any article/write up on exactly what the problem is.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 25 Oct 2014 05:37

nageshks wrote:Folks,
Did NaMo declare that one rank, one pension promise had been fulfilled? This article claims he did

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=110773

As far as I know, it has not been accomplished yet. Insufficient funds has been cited for inability to implement. Or am I wrong and it has been implemented? Also, is there any article/write up on exactly what the problem is.

UPA accepted the demand and allocated Rs 500 crore, which was widely termed as insufficient. NDA allocated Rs 1000 crore, over and above UPA-allocated figure.

Implementation started in UPA tenure

Chidambaram said the issue “has to be handled with great sensitivity”. He also pointed out that during the tenure of the UPA governments, changes in pension rules applicable to the defence services were made thrice in 2006, 2010 and 2013.

“As a result, the gap between pre-2006 retirees and post-2006 retirees has been closed in four ranks (subject to some anomalies that are being addressed): havildar, naib subedar, subedar and subedar major. There is still a small gap in the ranks of sepoy and naik and a gap in the ranks of major and above,” the finance minister said.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Oct 2014 09:41

The latest DAC meeting has approved Spike Man portable ATGM and 363 BMP-II ICVs, why 363? Are we raising any new RAPIDs/ Mechanized divisions? I had read sometime back that we have been steadily adding BMPs every year and Medak has been ramping up production too? Any iniouts from Guru Log on this welcome?!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Oct 2014 09:44

nageshks wrote:Folks,
Did NaMo declare that one rank, one pension promise had been fulfilled? This article claims he did

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=110773

As far as I know, it has not been accomplished yet. Insufficient funds has been cited for inability to implement. Or am I wrong and it has been implemented? Also, is there any article/write up on exactly what the problem is.

Funds are available aplenty.

the baboo(n)s are the ones stalling it from the beginning with cunning and subterfuge.

member_28835 · Post by **member_28835** » 27 Oct 2014 13:34

Hi Friends,

Slightly a different topic & but I thought of asking rather than being ignorant about it. I was told by one of my Army friends that Rifle regiments have black colored stars/emblem. If that is true, then I have seen GarRif, RajRif, Gorkha Rifles, JakRif all having black colored stars/emblem. Is there any other regiment I am missing? However I recently noticed during PM Modi's I-day speech where the guard of honor was given by JakLi which also had black stars/emblem. Any reason or logic behind this?
Also the Havaldar arm bands vary by regiments (some straight vs the V shape).. Any logic here?

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Oct 2014 20:20

chetak wrote:
nageshks wrote:Folks,
Did NaMo declare that one rank, one pension promise had been fulfilled? This article claims he did

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=110773

As far as I know, it has not been accomplished yet. Insufficient funds has been cited for inability to implement. Or am I wrong and it has been implemented? Also, is there any article/write up on exactly what the problem is.
Funds are available aplenty.

the baboo(n)s are the ones stalling it from the beginning with cunning and subterfuge.

OROP is a very complicated thingy as per my father it is already effective to a certain level now take for example this case.

1. A Subedar Major retired from the IA in 1990 and one retired in 2014. Public at large and even the common people think that OROP means both will get same pension but that is not the case , what will happen is if the Subedar Major who retired in 1990 had say 22 years of service while the one who retired in 2014 had say 27 years of service then the latter will draw a proportionally higher amount. Problem on ground zero is not many know as to what exactly OROP means everyone seems to think that all retired personnel with same rank will get same pension which is not the case .

My father , my 2 uncles and my grand pa get pension as per my father OROP is already effective for him and his 2 brothers problem is with paperwork for quite a few people like my grand pa the figure has not yet been adjusted as per their years of service (Grand father retired in 60s). Government process like any other will take time to adjust the correct figure for everyone on rolls. The rest of the hoo haa is raised by people with vested interests who want more.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Oct 2014 14:23

X-Posting from J&K Thread:

People absolutely need to read this hard hitting piece on Haider movie and it's director. Absolutely fantastic.

http://www.indiafacts.co.in/haider-wrap ... E9ItyKUc7n

Posting excerpt:

[quote]Haider is more Basharat Peer’s ‘Curfewed Nights’ than Shakespeare’s ‘Hamlet’. In two separate interviews to ‘The Hindu’ and ‘Times of India’, Vishal Bhardwaj has made the following statements : “I’m not anti-national, but I will comment on what is anti-human” and ” If I am not a leftist, I am not an artist”.

These statements give a general outlook of Bhardwaj’s politics and worldview. It is also clear from his interviews that he did not know much about Kashmir before making this film, so Basharat Peer and Peer’s book was his lens into Kashmir. In that sense, Bhardwaj’s independent views on Kashmir are no more important than that of an occasional foreign tourist to Kashmir before whom an uninterrupted picture of victimization is painted by resident Kashmiris, because the other side of the story (the heartrending plight of Kashmiri Pandits) is not present to debunk the lies.

Interestingly, in Bhardwaj’s earlier movie “Matru ki Bijli ka Mandola,” a 45-crore big budget Bollywood film with popular stars, the lead hero is a JNU product who in his alter-ego as the emancipator of the poor farmers is a superhero-like figure with the name ‘Mao’! This more than anything else shows the degree of comradeship Bhardwaj is affixed to in the domain of leftism, glorifying a mass murderer like Mao. It should have caused outrage in India, unfortunately it didn’t, perhaps because like every radical, subversive leftist thought, it was cloaked in too much distraction. Besides that, the film had multiple allusions to the usual objects of leftist rhetoric and jargon. One wonders why Bhardwaj did not chose to make his fashionable statement on the relation bet

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 28 Oct 2014 18:49

Indian Army celebrates 65th Infantry Day
Link: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... antry-day/

To remember and honour all those members of the Infantry who made the supreme sacrifice fighting Pakistani Raiders in Jammu and Kashmir in 1947, the Indian Army celebrated 65th Infantry Day with traditional solemnity and gaiety all across the Northern Command on Monday.

Lt General HJS Sachdev, Chief of Staff of the Northern Command, laid wreath on the “Dhruva Shahid Smarak’’ in Udhampur, the defence ministry spokesman based at Udhampur based Northern Command Headquarters, Colonel S D Goswami said. Similar memorial services were held all over the state, he said, adding that the celebrations were marked by laying of wreath at war memoraisl, sainik sammelans and sainik bhojs.

October 27 is celebrated as Infantry Day by the Indian Army as it was on this day that an Infantry Company of the First Battalion of the SIKH Regiment was airlifted from Delhi to Srinagar to liberate Kashmir from the invading tribals who were supported by Pakistan Army. This action was ordered by then Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehry after Maharaja Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession acceding Jammu Kashmir to India.

Another significance of October 27 is that it was on this day in 1947 that India as an independent nation was first time engaged in operations against an aggressor, the spokesman pointed out. Giving details, the spokesman said that Pakistan Army had launched “Operation Gulmarg” in early October 1947 using tribals to annex Jammu Kashmir. Hostalities began when a tribal rebellion was instigated in Poonch in South-West Kashmir. By October 20, the Pakistan Army entered the conflict in support of tribal forces.

As nearly 5,000 tribals supported by Pakistan Army invaded Kashmir Valley from Abbottabad on October 22, Maharaja Hari Singh on October 26 signed the Instrument of Accession thus making the state an integral part of India making Nehru to order Indian Army evict the invaders. The entire campaign was predominantly Infantry centric and its commencement on October 27, 1947 is commemorated as Infantry day, the spokesman said.

In his message to the Infantry, General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Northern Command and senior most Infantry officer in the region, Lt General D S Hooda, complimented all the infantrymen for the devotion to duty and indomitable spirit while working under trying and difficult conditions. He acknowledged their tremendous contribution in maintaining the sanctity of the nation’s borders and fighting terrorism in Jammu Kashmir.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 29 Oct 2014 02:22

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... rol/865567

Indian Army Contingent wins gold medal in prestigious Cambrian patrol

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 29 Oct 2014 13:44

Prime Minister Salutes Infantry on Infantry Day
Link: http://www.narendramodi.in/prime-minist ... antry-day/

Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi has paid tribute to Infantry on Infantry Day today.

“On Infantry Day we salute the indomitable courage and bravery of our Infantry, who have left no stone unturned in serving our Nation. We pay rich tributes to our Infantry Martyrs who dedicated their lives to protect the unity and integrity of our Nation”, the Prime Minister said in his tweets.
On Infantry Day we salute the indomitable courage & bravery of our Infantry, who have left no stone unturned in serving our Nation. @adgpi

— Narendra Modi (@narendramodi) October 27, 2014

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Nov 2014 19:03

Indian Army's Eastern Command turns 94

Kolkata, Nov 1 (IANS): Indian Army's biggest operational command - the Eastern Command - responsible for military operations along the international borders with Bangladesh, Bhutan, China, Myanmar and Nepal, Saturday turned 94.

The Eastern Command will continue to strive for "unparalleled professional competence to ensure the highest standards of operational readiness", Lt. Gen. M.M.S. Rai, general officer commanding-in-chief, said on the occasion at its headquarters at Fort William here.

He reiterated the responsibility of safeguarding the nation's eastern territory.

The Eastern Command was formed Nov 1, 1920, with its summer headquarters in Nainital and winter headquarters in Lucknow. Its territorial jurisdiction then extended over Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, Bengal, Bihar, Orissa and Assam.

The command was designated as Eastern Army in April 1942, and its headquarters moved to Barrackpore.

The Eastern Command theatre consists of three distinct geographical regions - the mountainous sectors of Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh in the north, the jungle-clad hill tracts of Nagaland, Manipur, Mizoram, Tripura and Meghalaya in the east and the south, and the plains of Assam and Bengal.

Field Marshal. S.H.F.J. Manekshaw, who led the Indian Army to victory in 1971 and became India's first five-star officer in 1975, was one of Eastern Command's illustrious commanders.

Besides the current army chief, Gen. Dalbir Singh and his predecessors Gen. Bikram Singh and Gen. V.K. Singh, others who have headed the Eastern Command are Gen. P.P. Kumaramanglam, Gen. A.S. Vaidya Gen. V.N. Sharma, all of whom rose to army chief.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 03 Nov 2014 15:57

After Modi became PM, it was decided that all Chiefs would meet the PM on a one-on-one basis on monthly basis. Any news on how that is going?

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 04 Nov 2014 12:53

Do follow the hashtag #2dayin1947 on Twitter .. a good series of tweets on the 1st Kashmir War as it unfolded day by day

Link

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 05 Nov 2014 12:23

Just wanted to give a few clarifications regarding the incident at Chattergam which resulted in the death of 2 boys and 2 more were injured. While being tragic, there are a lot of stories going around by Prabeen Swami and UndieTV as somehow troops opened fire for kicks and that militancy in J&K is an urban myth.

The area comes under 12 Sector RR and the unit in question as mentioned by Swamiji is 53RR (Punjab) and is a fairly active area Ops wise. The vehicle in question failed to stop upon being challenged at 2 succesive MVCP's each of which is spread over some distance. As it passed the third MVCP, soldiers opened fire on the vehicle at the rear, upon hearing the gunshots
a gunner mounted upon the last MPV acting as ambush stop opened fire on the engine block and windscreen.

Why I mention this? Because in a very similar fashion a day prior to the said incident in the same area, militants travelling in a Maruti opened fire and killed 2 Soldiers and injured two more as they approached the vehicle. Incidents cannot be taken in isolation and troops are bound to be vigilant if placed under similar circumstances especially after specific Int. Just does not mean that they are lacking in training or trigger happy.

Rant Off

Link: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/2-so ... 98956.html

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Nov 2014 12:33

well said ...and i wont be surprised to find that the children driving the maruti also did not have a DL !!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Nov 2014 20:46

Army wins gold in UK endurance competition
Tribune News Service

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20141106/main3.htm

New Delhi, November 5
Forty-eight hours without rest and all the while carrying out a series of military tasks describes the Cambrian Patrol – an international event that half of the participating teams cannot even complete.

The Indian Army’s team of eight Garhwalis has emerged victorious and awarded the gold medal in the event conducted in the Cambrian mountain of Wales in the UK. The two-day patrol across marshy lands, swamps, rivers and in biting cold was conducted from October 23-25.

The winners display their medals
The winners display their medals. A Tribune photo

This is the second time an Indian team has won the event, the 4/9 Gorkha Rifles won the gold medal in 2010.

“A total of 119 teams participated in the event and half of them could not even complete it,” recounts Major Lalit Mohan Joshi, leader of the eight-member team. The participants are tested for 20 aspects during the patrol, including firing of personal weapons, obstacle crossing, administering first aid and casualty evacuation, recognition of aircraft, vehicles and equipment, artillery target indication, patrol techniques, helicopter drills, communications skills, handling prisoners of war, tactical river/stream crossing, ambush/anti ambush drills, recce techniques, tunnel crossing, navigation skills and rock climbing.

“Carrying a 30-kg load on the back during the entire tenure of the patrol was a challenge. But we had been practising for it for the past two years,” recounts Major Joshi, adding that teams which get more than 75 per cent score get the gold medal.

It is an annual international military patrolling exercise that makes its participating units cover a 50-mile (80 km) course in less than 48 hours while performing numerous military exercises placed throughout the rugged mountains and swamp lands of mid-Wales, UK.

It was set up more than 40 years ago by a group of Welsh Territorial Army soldiers who designed the training event to feature long-distance marching over the Cambrian Mountains culminating in firing. The aim of the exercise is to test leadership, self-discipline, courage, physical endurance and determination.

Maj Gen Shokin Chauhan, Additional Director General of Public Interface of the Army, called the victory "a reconfirmation of the tough training standards of the Indian Army".

In a radio chat show "Mann Ki Baat", PM Narendra Modi mentioned the Army's achievements. "You will be pleased to hear that our Army team has won a gold medal... I give my heartiest wishes," he had said.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 07 Nov 2014 17:38

^^ slightly misleading article

The Indian Contingent won the Gold Medal in Phase 6 of the exercise. The article seems to imply that we won"THE" Gold medal. Gold Medals are handed out at each Phase. in 2014 5 teams were awarded the Gold Medal, all other were UK participants. Also we last won a gold in 2011 not 2010 as stated in the article. (Believe we won a silver in 2010 and the Pakis won a gold in 2010)

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 07 Nov 2014 19:35

vaibhav.n wrote:Just wanted to give a few clarifications regarding the incident at Chattergam which resulted in the death of 2 boys and 2 more were injured. While being tragic, there are a lot of stories going around by Prabeen Swami and UndieTV as somehow troops opened fire for kicks and that militancy in J&K is an urban myth.

The area comes under 12 Sector RR and the unit in question as mentioned by Swamiji is 53RR (Punjab) and is a fairly active area Ops wise. The vehicle in question failed to stop upon being challenged at 2 succesive MVCP's each of which is spread over some distance. As it passed the third MVCP, soldiers opened fire on the vehicle at the rear, upon hearing the gunshots
a gunner mounted upon the last MPV acting as ambush stop opened fire on the engine block and windscreen.

Why I mention this? Because in a very similar fashion a day prior to the said incident in the same area, militants travelling in a Maruti opened fire and killed 2 Soldiers and injured two more as they approached the vehicle. Incidents cannot be taken in isolation and troops are bound to be vigilant if placed under similar circumstances especially after specific Int. Just does not mean that they are lacking in training or trigger happy.

Rant Off

Link: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/2-so ... 98956.html

why is the Army apologizing? The army's statement is low in details and seemingly contradictory. it calls it a "mistaken identity" and then talks of car not stopping at 3 check points. It doesn't say what went wrong. is it under political pressure to take blame?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 08 Nov 2014 08:38

^ Let the probe end. We can speculate after that in HAF.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Nov 2014 03:11

http://thediplomat.com/2014/11/bhutan-t ... ront-line/

A short (and rather incomplete) article on strategic importance of Bhutan. Good basic information to assess what IA does in Bhutan. Posting in full:

In late October, on the dirt road that winds north from the Bhutanese town of Paro in the direction of the border with Chinese-controlled Tibet, I pass an Indian army base of more than 600 soldiers. They are packing up to return to India for the duration of Bhutan’s harsh winter months. On the same road just after sunrise, I encounter an Indian Army squad of special forces soldiers with Himalayan features running in formation, sandbags roped to their backs, with the squad’s commander shouting “No photos, sir!”

Adjoining the Indian Army base is a camp for approximately 120 Bhutanese soldiers who train with the Indians on joint exercises in the rugged mountains that rise up from the Paro Valley. Just another kilometer or so further up the road is a Bhutanese army camp of 24 soldiers and their families. The camp’s sole purpose is to maintain 80 horses to cart supplies to military units higher still on the trail to the Bhutan-Tibet border region.

One of the horses’ former destinations, the Bhutanese army base at Gunitsawa, 14 kilometers further up the valley, was accessible only by mountain trail until a crude road was carved out in 2012, the year the base first received reliable electric power. Gunitsawa’s regiment of approximately 90 soldiers sends 15-man units on one-month rotations to three checkpoint huts higher in the mountains; supplying these forward checkpoints gives continuing employment to the army’s stable of horses.

The three checkpoint camps, Gyatsa, Soi Thangthangkha and Lingshi, are Bhutan’s only means of keeping an eye on its northwest border with China’s Tibet region. (Bhutan, a Switzerland-sized country of 740,000 inhabitants, famous for its emphasis on “Gross National Happiness,” has no air force; it relies on neighboring India and Nepal even for helicopter support in the event of emergencies in remote districts). The checkpoints are near a region of Bhutan that Beijing says is its territory, in addition to the claims it has made on Bhutan’s northern border. Bhutanese soldiers report that their usual task on the frontier is to intercept smugglers, but that the Chinese military sometimes crosses into Bhutanese territory via roads China has recently built all the way to the western Bhutanese border. “When they come in, it’s with 15 trucks or nothing,” says one Royal Bhutan Army officer.

Bhutan shares a China problem with its neighbor and ally, India. The first foreign state visit by India’s newly elected Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, was to Bhutan, underscoring the importance of Bhutan’s frontier with China, and the strategic vulnerability it represents if China and India were to go to war. From the disputed western China-Bhutan border, China could easily strike India’s geographic “chicken neck” – a narrow band of land, the Siliguri Corridor, that connects the main body of India with its northeastern states, home to 45 million people.

Modi’s June visit to Bhutan came one month before scheduled China-Bhutan border talks, an annual ritual for the past 22 years that has signally failed to resolve the territorial disputes. In the face of increasing Chinese pressure on Bhutan to open relations with Beijing, Modi announced a 50 percent increase in Indian aid to Bhutan, to approximately $970 million annually.

Bhutan was also the first international destination for India’s new army chief. From November 1 to 3, General Dalbir Singh Suhag visited senior officials in Bhutan on what was billed a “routine” visit. But coming on the heels of September’s large military incursion by China into the Ladakh border region controlled by India, even as Chinese President Xi Jinping was on a state visit to India, Singh’s Bhutan meetings are unlikely to have been routine, especially since he brings unusually relevant experience to the Himalayan brinksmanship that China is displaying: he has previously headed India’s Special Frontier Force, a covert “China-centric” unit of highly trained ethnic Tibetan soldiers.

Delhi’s full-court press for Bhutan’s allegiance will continue on November 7, with a two-day state visit to Bhutan by India’s President Pranab Mukherjee, accompanied by a large delegation – the first trip to Bhutan by an Indian president in 26 years.

China, with its increasingly aggressive moves along its Himalayan borders, seems to be employing the same methodology it has used in its ongoing takeover of the near-entirety of the South China Sea. This gives the Indian government good reason to worry that Beijing might also muscle its way into its lands, just as it has annexed territory over the objections of South China Sea claimants Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, and, most recently, Indonesia.

This probably explains why the road leading up from the Indian and Bhutanese military bases in the picturesque Paro Valley is rapidly being widened and paved, almost entirely by imported Indian laborers, often working by hand. Residents say the Indian government, for decades a protector of sorts for a deeply Buddhist Bhutan that sympathizes with Tibet, is paying for the road-building out of its worries about China. Locals expect that the road will soon be paved all the way to the rudimentary base at Gunitsawa, far up the valley. It is conceivable that next year the Indian army will also provide heavy-lift helicopters to supply the Bhutanese checkpoints high in the Himalayas, allowing the Bhutanese army to put its hard-working horses out to pasture, while increasing its vigilance on the border with China.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 09 Nov 2014 03:57

rohitvats wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2014/11/bhutan-t ... ront-line/

A short (and rather incomplete) article on strategic importance of Bhutan. Good basic information to assess what IA does in Bhutan. Posting in full:
.
I encounter an Indian Army squad of special forces soldiers with Himalayan features running in formation, sandbags roped to their backs, with the squad’s commander shouting “No photos, sir!”
.

SFF?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Nov 2014 10:02

Why are we training jointly with the chinese??

China training Pakistan troops: Is India looking at its worst defence nightmare ever?

Is India looking at its worst defence nightmare ever?

by Rajeev Sharma Nov 15,
India’s worst nightmare situation of a military gang-up between Pakistan and China, the only two foreign countries which have fought wars with independent India, is threatening to come true.
This writer had put his finger on this possible dreadful scenario here and here.
A news agency report on 14 November said the Chinese troops are training Pakistan Army personnel right across the India-Pakistan border in Jammu and Kashmir. The agency report, purportedly based on a report submitted to the Narendra Modi government by the intelligence wing of the Border Security Force (BSF), says that the Chinese troops have been training Pakistani troops in “weapon handling” techniques opposite the Rajouri sector of International Border and that Pakistani army units have taken control from Pakistan Rangers of several forward posts in Rajasthan’s Sriganga sector in Rajasthan. The details of the agency report can be seen here.
The above report confirms and corroborates several things that this writer has been shrieking about of late.

One, while the Modi government has no illusions about the real intentions of Pakistan, it is the role of China that is of utmost importance. China was absent in the first India-Pakistan military conflict in 1947-48 (as Communist China was born only in 1949) and had played a supine role during the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak Wars. But the Chinese attitude may change.
Implications: Any military move of Pakistan, particularly hereon, has to be carefully sifted and analyzed from the inevitable Chinese angle. The presence of some twenty thousand Chinese troops in PoK is a stark reminder of the Chinese intentions and capabilities.
Two, China’s real intentions vis a vis India are not above board. China may indulge in every possible way to gang up covertly with Pakistan against India while keeping its own hands clean. In a way, China is already doing that for years by its stapled visas policy. While China gives stapled visas to Indians domiciled in Jammu and Kashmir (and also Arunachal Pradesh), it gives regular visas to people domiciled in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, thus taking a stand on the India-Pakistan dispute over the Kashmir issue.
Implications: The above-mentioned news agency report is nothing but a direct corroboration of the pincer strategy that China and Pakistan may be planning vis a vis India. It means that the Modi government will have to take every goody-goody word of China not just with a pinch of salt but with a bucketful of salt. China pulled the trigger against India in 1965 but that was a different era. None of the three Asian countries being discussed here – India, Pakistan and China – was a declared nuclear weapon power; but now all three are.
Three, China may not pull the trigger at India by itself but instead use Pakistan for the dirty job.
Implications: This is the best possible military and strategic tactic of China. Why put its own military boots on the Indian ground when it can achieve the same, or probably better results from the Chinese perspective, by using the Pakistanis as pawns on the larger strategic chess board?
The above scenario raises multiple questions about how India should deal with this pincer strategy of China and Pakistan.
Mercifully, winter has already set in and Pakistan cannot infiltrate its merchants of death into the Indian territory at will, the upcoming elections in Jammu and Kashmir notwithstanding.
China has been cleverly keeping the Indians bogged down with zero progress on the boundary dispute – the only grouse for which China can “punish” India. Important Chinese leaders have hinted last year (when the new regime took over in Beijing) that an out-of-the-box solution to the vexed Sino-Indian boundary dispute may be forthcoming. But nothing has actually happened.
While India has always been wary of the China-Pakistan nexus, it is here and now that New Delhi needs to be alert.
Diplomatically, China has been all sugar and honey to India. But getting to know the real intentions of China is as tedious a task as reading the reading the Chinese tea leaves.
India must not forget that China is the land of Sun Tzu, the famous military general, strategist and philosopher and China’s Chanakya who penned his thoughts in his immortal work “Art of War” some 2500 years ago.
The Chinese India-specific strategy may be hidden in the following quotes from “Art of War”.
- The e supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
- Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
- Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.
- The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.
- To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.