Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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SSridhar
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby SSridhar » 17 Mar 2016 10:37

OK, last post on that subject folks.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 11:21

Khalsa, fair enough and as that was a gracious reply.
So this applies.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 17 Mar 2016 11:59

Karan a real pleasure to be amongst your company and those of my fellow BRFites.
I raise my glass to you first and foremost followed closely by the forum moderators, the contributors.
;-)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 17 Mar 2016 12:05

Khalsa wrote:Karan a real pleasure to be amongst your company and those of my fellow BRFites.
I raise my glass to you first and foremost followed closely by the forum moderators, the contributors.
;-)


get a room, guys.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Mar 2016 15:27

Karan,

I think our journalists have become consumed by ego (so what I say is right and I will say it very loudly) and have lost their sense of discrimination. With the result their is hysteria and aggression and exaggeration. In this case there may well have been some senior officers who had expressed concern but were not 'seething' with this issue. There is 'seething' alright but not on this. But some journalists make do aur do paanch.

In Pathankot there were some legitimate concerns (Gen Katoch perhaps) on higher defence management and constant invasion by babudom of areas they know nothing about, care 2 hoots about and always screw up. But there were no concerns about NSG deployment and the tactical handling. Anyway, commenting on tactical handling from behind a TV screen is not easy because you hardly have all the facts, can't feel and taste and smell the atmosphere (that's why the best commanders always want to be in the thick of it - their human sensor fusion tells gives them sixth sense) fog of war and so on.

So I think its fine to have different views but a journalist exaggerating that as 'seething' is wrong.

What crackdown and against whom Karan ? Crackdown is needed against babudom, DPSU sloth, and above all Pakistan !!!
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 17 Mar 2016 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Mar 2016 15:35

SSridhar wrote:Wanted to post the following sometime back, but missed it.

Golden occasion for ‘thambis’ of 13 Engineer Regiment - The Hindu
They constructed the first floating bridge in Kashmir valley in just three hours in 1995. During the 1971 war, amid heavy bombardment, they converted a deeply mined railway line stretching from Balurghat, India to Hilli in East Pakistan into a road in lightening speed over night. They have worked in extreme weather conditions – sub-zero temperature of Ladakh and the blistering heat of Rajasthan. They are the “thambis” of 13 Engineer Regiment of the Madras Engineer Group, Indian Army.

On Tuesday [March 1, 2016], it was time to celebrate the regiment’s 50 years of existence, as a large gathering of ex-servicemen from Vellore and other parts of the State came together to go down on the memory’s lane.

“The 13 Engineer Regiment’s job is to provide engineering service to enable the infantry to advance. We deal with explosions, we neutralise enemies’ minefields and lay mines. We have built thousands of bridges,” retired Colonel M.M. Khan, who was part of the regiment between 1973 and 1996 said.

Interestingly, the regiment’s language was mostly Tamil. Most of the men recruited to the regiment came from Tamil Nadu, with Vellore main a major hub, he added.

In fact, the regiment’s motto was “Padimune Po Munne,” [Thirteen, go forward] a slogan that kept the “thambis” going ahead even in the toughest conditions. Formed in 1966 in Sagar in Madhya Pradesh, the regiment played a pivotal role in the Indo-Pak 1971 war. “Our outstanding job forced Pakistan forces to surrender. We also received the East Pakistan Theatre Award. Our regiment has worked all over the borders of India. Whether floods or earthquakes, we are the first to go for aid and relief,” he pointed out.

Recounting the construction of the first heavy assault floating bridge in Kashmir, he said that there were maximum wooden bridges in the valley, and during the militancy in 90s, the bridges used to be set on fire.

“One such place was Khudwain in south Kashmir. Even the civil engineering departments ruled out the possibility of constructing a bridge. The bank of the river was steep, and water current was fast. We conducted reconnaissance and went ahead with the construction,” he recalled. The regiment constructed a 100 metre long bridge. In the absence of the bridge, the local population had to travel for 80 kilometres.


Another achievement was establishing a ditch cum bund that served as an obstacle to the enemies’ tanks. The regiment went on to bag six awards for its works.

Many ex-servicemen recalled memories of the regiment. Ex-serviceman, Captain M. Sundaramoorthy, who was among the first to join the regiment, recalled how they had breached many minefields, while 72-year-old Captain M.V. Krishnan said that during the 1971 war, they were involved in several dangerous jobs.

As the ex-servicemen celebrated the Golden Jubilee, the regimental headquarters was also having a small celebration. Similar celebrations were being organised in Thrissur (Kerala), Secunderabad (Hyderabad) and Bengaluru (Karnataka), Colonel Khan noted.

Ordinary Captain R.N. Chakravarthy, an ex-serviceman, said around 250 ex-servicemen from including Vellore, Madurai, Tiruchi, Salem, Puducherry and Krishnagiri took part in the Golden Jubilee celebrations.

Out of his 37 years in the army, Subedar Major Ordinary Captain V. Xavier Yesudoss was part of the regiment for 32 years, while another ex-serviceman Subedar Madasamy named his house “thambi illam” in memory of the regiment, a fitting tribute indeed.



Not Ordinary Capt but Hony (Honorary) Capt. Bhagwan bachae DDM se. Doesnt it even cross the editor or writers mind to check what ordinary Capt means ??

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 16:01

Akshay, there seems to be a prominent group of individuals in MSM and wheeler dealer circles cutting across all groups of Govt bureaucracy/social elite citcles who seek to sabotage the current Govt or any success, or otherwise the current GOI achieves or even any perception of success.

Whether, it be Pathankot, or WCF or any such minor or major event, there is a loud clamor of "seething officers" etc. Of how the military is at odds with the current GOI etc. Either the crooks who are misrepresenting the services need to be taken to task, or those who have been coopted need to be ID'ed and moved out of positions of sabotage. If we were at a stage wherein a rtd Lt Gen could waltz into a CAS's presence and threaten him to buy X vehicles or "else", one can well imagine the depth of subversion.

So the question I asked was straightforward, given the level of service-civvy distrust assiduously exploited by these individuals, would any action taken against these interests further the civilian-military divide or better it in the long term? I suspect though given your answer, its an answer in its own way. Because when you say "What crackdown and against whom Karan ? Crackdown is needed against babudom, DPSU sloth, and above all Pakistan !!!" - the issue is not just limited to these folks but the entrenched crooked apparatus that exists across all our society & at this rate, the services will continue to be used as yet another pawn until and unless the current GOI takes a hard stand on the matter against those doing these sort of antics using fake "anonymous sources" and the like.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby nirav » 17 Mar 2016 16:16

+1

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Mar 2016 19:35

MSM and so called 'english speaking elite' is anti national. No question about that. And there are ways of cracking down on them using the int agencies and getting down and dirty. If it can be pulled off I am all for it.

But who will do it ? The IAS and IPS and allied services have destroyed our country since independence.They are the primary source of advice and execution for the government but are ridden by sloth, bad incentives, power hunger, ego and incompetence. For any sustainable reform of our country this bull has to be taken by the horns. Or we can bid any chance of success of making our country great goodbye and Modi Sarkar will be a 1 term wonder.

I know 4 sons and 1 daughter of IPS officers and the stories they tell me are blood curling. All of them say the IPS must be disbanded. The IAS recruitment has to be completely revamped including a substantial portion of people with military service, they should recruit from the corporate sector at all levels and non performers and corrupt officers must be sacked. There is 0 accountability in the civil service and PSUs.

Re civil military relationship the entire higher defence management has to be revamped drastically. I have several ideas but I don't see any of that happening. The latest pay commission has just made things much worse. Morale is not good let me tell you. So yes there is seething and rightly so but not on the issues MSM says. This govt is atleast pretending to be nationalist. The last one was openly anti national.

Frankly I see none of the needed changes happening. Forget the changes there is no understanding that changes are needed. We will just continue bhagwan bharose.

Re Tejinder Singh (I don't call him by rank) let him hang. But he wont because he will then rope in the babus and politicos.

So to answer your question Karan, lets drastically reform higher defence management, address the pay and rank equality issues and once that is done lets take a ruthless approach to under-performance and corruption. I have no problem even with the death sentence in cases. But first address the core of the issue.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 19:45

^^ Its just baffling to me, a mango man, how current Modi sarkar has completely ignored the punitive aspect of acting against many of these vested interests. Their efforts on development etc are sought to be countered, given how perceptions are shaped.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Mar 2016 20:00

Its the advice they get. And who will act ? Its the same babus who have to act. Take the cases against Vadra. Couldn't they have been used to get the congress to pass stalled legislation ? Pressure can be applied but you need both brains and balls to do it.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 17 Mar 2016 20:02

Karan M wrote:Akshay, there seems to be a prominent group of individuals in MSM and wheeler dealer circles cutting across all groups of Govt bureaucracy/social elite citcles who seek to sabotage the current Govt or any success, or otherwise the current GOI achieves or even any perception of success.

Whether, it be Pathankot, or WCF or any such minor or major event, there is a loud clamor of "seething officers" etc. Of how the military is at odds with the current GOI etc. Either the crooks who are misrepresenting the services need to be taken to task, or those who have been coopted need to be ID'ed and moved out of positions of sabotage. If we were at a stage wherein a rtd Lt Gen could waltz into a CAS's presence and threaten him to buy X vehicles or "else", one can well imagine the depth of subversion.

So the question I asked was straightforward, given the level of service-civvy distrust assiduously exploited by these individuals, would any action taken against these interests further the civilian-military divide or better it in the long term? I suspect though given your answer, its an answer in its own way. Because when you say "What crackdown and against whom Karan ? Crackdown is needed against babudom, DPSU sloth, and above all Pakistan !!!" - the issue is not just limited to these folks but the entrenched crooked apparatus that exists across all our society & at this rate, the services will continue to be used as yet another pawn until and unless the current GOI takes a hard stand on the matter against those doing these sort of antics using fake "anonymous sources" and the like.


the society in the services is too closely monitored for any blighter to "seethe". That way lies courts martial and repeat transgressors are usually cashiered swiftly.

The president is not often pleased with such behavior of disgruntled folks and he can quickly and easily withdraw his "pleasure".

individual fundamental rights have little meaning in the service and a overwhelming majority supports this govt. some minority nuts are always around to spoil the atmosphere.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 18 Mar 2016 12:11

News section of the BR main page had this. Quoting here for all.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7535

English Rendering of the text of PM’s address to the officers, soldiers and air warriors of the Indian Armed Forces at Leh, Jammu & Kashmir


National Security Advisor Shri Ajit Doval ji, Chief of Army Staff General Dalbir Singh ji, Lieutenant General Hooda ji, Air Marshal Soman ji and all the brave officers and soldiers of the army and air force present here. I am privileged to address those who are associated with defence forces and I believe in military, bravery is respected more than the position one holds.

Army follows a hierarchical system but courage is a tradition and for those who serve this tradition in an exemplary manner particularly wait for that moment when they will be called for serving their nation and they live for that tradition every moment. This in itself is a distinct feeling. For the soldiers, there is only one yearning in life, to work and serve the country. You can see a feeling of restlessness in a soldier who has retired from army but has not faced any challenges during his service and if fielded a similar question about his service in army. He will tend to think that though he has participated in the daily parade but has not contributed to the force. For him in his heart the meaning of work in the army is not to kill someone or to be killed, the biggest inspiration for a soldier is to dedicate his life for someone else’s life.

The respect of your mother who gave birth to you is million times more than what you can have. I salute those mothers who gave birth to such brave warriors and instilled the right values in them and also instilled a do and die inspiration for their motherland India. I am not aware of a single mother who has feeling in her heart that though she has given birth to a son but he dedicates his life only for serving motherland India and not his own mother. This extraordinary inspiration can only be given by a mother and due to this your life not only secures our national borders but also provides assurance of security to 125 million people. If you ask what are the dreams of those 125 million people then they will say that our motherland should either become a Vishwa Guru (Teacher of the World) or a Jagat Janani (Provider of the World). Our 125 million brothers and sisters want to live a happy and peaceful life, even poorest of the poor child should not sleep hungry at night and at least there should be one roof above their head with a proper access to education. That is the reason I am saying that you all are not just for protection of border or for the protection of geographical structure. Your life in an indirect way is the guarantee of millions of life. And until there is peace and security in the country development is impossible.

The preconditions of development are peace, security, brotherhood, goodwill. Our army is an example of brotherhood - there is no distinction on the basis of language, wealth and there is a feeling of being a family. The term Fauji (soldier) in itself seems like you are a very own part of the system which you can relate to and this honour does not come overnight. These get developed under a certain tradition and this feeling comes when every moment this tradition is kept alive.

An army cannot be made capable unless the systems behind it are well accomplished. The term planning here is not restricted to the cantonment or the government, but also towards his village and family which particularly need to be strengthened. The soldier must have faith that even if he sacrifices his life for the country, the country will take care of his family and leave any stone unturned for his family’s well-being. It is the responsibility of the country and government that the faith vested in it should not be shaken. There should not be any question mark in the mind of the soldier posted on the border.

In the political field, I used to work for an organization. I came quite late in the world of electoral politics and governance. I have utlilised my earlier life in mobilizing the cadres. Whenever I addressed my party workers, I used to tell them because we live in an atmosphere of electoral politics, party workers tend to seek ticket for election and if they are denied the same they ought to get frustrated due to it and feeling of even doing something incorrect creeps inside the mind. This is a normal course of political field. During training, I used to tell my party workers a story, which I want to share with you all. I used to tell them that when an army soldier wants to take leave on the occasion of festival of Raksha Bandhan (sister tying rakhi or a thread at the wrist of her brother for her protection). He is normally sanctioned the leave at the last moment. He somehow packs his round luggage and rushes for his home. In order to reach the nearest railway station, he takes whatever first mode of transport comes his way, whether its truck or tempo. Due to last minute rush, the passengers do not allow him to enter in a coach as he does not have reservation for travel. You can image the similar scenario of fight everyday at Jammu station. The soldier does not get a place to sit as people here are used to soldiers on a daily basis so he stands for twenty four hours, thirty hours, sixty hours on the train without reservation to reach home. If in some case, he misses the train though he has left with the dream of getting rakhi tied by his sister but reaches home a day late. In the interim before he reaches home due to delay his sister is waiting and the soldier travelling in the train has the image of his sister. He can see the Rakhi but cannot not reach home on time and feels mental agony. When he reaches home, his mother, daughter, sister… all are crying and upon tying of Rakhi, there is a sense of happiness. Mother is sick so he tries to extend his leave but leave is not approved, so he comes back and resumes duty. Mother has to be operated he goes again. For operation he wanders from the house of one doctor to other and the doctor demands money in advance. He does not have so much of money with him. At that time, the he is annoyed. Can he not see, I am a soldier serving my nation and here my mother is dying and he is not doing the operation for want of money? Child wants to go to school but the school is not giving him admission. A soldier wants his child to get a good education even though he has studied in a simple school but the school wants ex amount of fee to admit the child. He is very annoyed, when he thinks about the doctor who has not treated his mother, towards the school who denied admission to his child and towards the rail system which does not allow him to reach on time on the occasion of Rakhi. When he gets the news, that his mother was not operated and she died, so many negative things cross his mind. If he analyzes the event one by one, then he feels, for whom should I lay my life? Should I die for the people, who are not admitting my child to the school? These are the people who were not performing the operation in hospital, when my mother was dying, why should I lay my life for them? After seeing all this also just see the strength of the soldier, see his temperament, see his upbringing, whenever the situation arises and the bugle rings, he still puts the gun on his shoulder and says ”Bharat Maata Ki Jai’’ (hail Mother India) and marches ahead. He never thinks, what the Doctor did to his mother, what the teacher did to his child or whether he reached on time on the day of Rakhi or not, he chants the mantra of Love Live Mother India and marches forward to the action scene. This is not a small gesture, this is not an usual thing. I would tell my party workers that we must take inspiration from these soldiers. These soldiers never get the respect and honour that they deserve but when it is required they serve their ‘Motherland India’ they put the gun on their shoulders, chant ”Bharat Maata Ki Jai’’ (hail Mother India) and march ahead. This temperament, this strength is essential for the protection of dignity, self-esteem and the pride of the nation and India takes pride in the fact that we have such an outstanding army.

Whether it is navy, land or air, we have a chain of proud, daredevil, devout, soldiers who are ready to sacrifice their lives and this brings a sense of pride in us. Whenever, I come to meet them, I get an inspiration to serve my country even more. I have not come here to tell you all this, I used to be amongst you all when I was the Chief Minister of Gujarat, as I used to visit the border to celebrate Diwali there. I went there not to tell anything to them but to get my battery of patriotism charged a little more, because I know your life will provide us the inspiration. Army soldiers do not want to distance themselves from the society in general but want to have coordination with them and that gives strength. Had there been no coordination between the people of Leh and Ladakh and the army soldiers and had a Tashi-Nagia shepherd who herds cow and sheep not met an army officer then we would have not known of the Kargil infiltration of the Pakistan army for a long time. Due to the information received from a local shepherd who grazed cow, buffalo and goat informed army soldiers, awakening the nation about the impending war which we resultantly won.

In today’s age, the wars on the fought on the borders have almost stopped. It is our misfortune that that our given our neighbour’s mentality of having lost the strength to fight a conventional war but the chain of killing innocent civilians continues unabated through the Proxy War waged. How many innocent people are being killed due to this? These cowards have forced our soldiers to sacrifice their lives due to this proxy war than fighting the actual war. The proxy war is not just a crisis in India but it has engulfed the whole world. Therefore, as much there is a need for military power in the world, the requirement of humanitarian forces to come together against this menace is important. The more world's humanitarian powers come together, more they will be able to alienate the violent forces, the humanitarian forces will defeat the violent forces. We are dedicated to the protection of humanitarian thoughts, humanitarian values, humanitarian strengths and the civilized tradition. And for this India is bound by its words, duty and commitment and we want to move forward with this belief.

You might have seen the new budget, the "One Rank, One Pension’’ scheme showed our commitment and made you happy. After independence the soldiers of our country were awaiting for the National War Memorial to be constructed. I promise you that it will be made and it will be made with lot of honour and pride and millions of people from India will take inspiration from it. It is for those people who lived for us and died for us and this will continue to inspire us forever. Our armed forces should be modern and our armed forces should not lack any required resources and India should become self-reliant in the field of security. I have taken a very big decision in the budget for it. Why can’t we arrange to make everything within India than bringing them from outside our country? In defence, FDI should come, new technology should come and the defence equipment should be made in India utilizing our current serving defence personnel that include engineers, technical staff and skilled personnel. We are working towards the deployment of retired defence personnel in the defence manufacturing system to utilize their strength, on how to utilize the foreign funds and how to provide the best of best defence safeguard mechanism and we are moving towards it in a much planned way.

I once again, through this brave soldier in whose name this building has been named convey my respect and tribute to all the martyrs. I am proud of your duty, skill and courage and as your leader, I assure you that this country is for you and will always be proud of your sacrifice and timeless effort. My best wishes to you all. Please speak after me – Long Live Mother India, Vande Matram, Vande Mataram, Vande Mataram, Vande Mataram, Vande Mataram, Vande Mataram!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 18 Mar 2016 12:12

Another news item from the links on BR main page:

http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2016/03/15/smriti-irani-to-use-indian-army-to-teach-patriotism-in-central-universities408003/

After the decision to hoist the tricolor flag in all central universities, Human Resource Development minister Smriti Irani has decided to use the army to teach patriotism in universities controlled by the central government, reported India Today.

The decision of the ministry to hoist the tricolor flag of a specific dimension in all 46 central universities that comes under the control of the central government had got mixed response from society with the BJP supporters terming it as a patriotic move and the opposition calling it an action to label students anti-national.

The decision to hoist the flag was taken in a meeting of the vice-chancellors of central universities chaired by Irani last month.

Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) was selected as the first place to hoist the flag as it is the center point of a series of protests held recently following the arrest of JNU students union president Kanhaiya Kumar, after anti-India slogans were allegedly raised at a program held on the university campus.

The program was conducted in the memory of Afzal Guru, a convict in the Parliament attack case who was hanged to death.

Sedition charges were slapped against Kumar and other students, including Umar Khalid and Anirban Bhattacharya. The Narendra Modi government, including Irani, came under severe criticism following the arrest of the student leaders.

On Tuesday, some JNU students held a protest march from Mandi House to Parliament demanding the release of Umar Khalid and Anirban Bhattacharya. Kumar, while addressing the protest, demanded Irani’s resignation for targeting academic institutions.

There were no details on how Army personnel would play their part with students in central universities.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby titash » 20 Mar 2016 04:58

Lots of good info from the L&T guys here:
http://bharatshakti.in/lt-is-well-poised-to-indigenously-build-integrate-weapon-delivery-systems-across-navys-ship-building-programmes-j-d-patil/

Brig SK Chatterji (SKC): Will it be viable financially for L&T to continue with the Pinaka project given the limitations of the requirements of the Indian Army, or are you exploring possibilities of exporting the system?

JDP: The user had originally planned for induction of 22 regiments (overall) of the Pinaka system. With 10 of these ordered during the 11th and 12th plan period. With the Long Range Pinaka rockets under development trials, we expect the user to opt for the longer range rockets for the balance regiments to be ordered during the 13th plan (2018-23). With the performance of Pinaka, and enhanced user confidence in this potent indigenous weapon system we expect the user to continue acquisition of Pinaka over subsequent 14th plan period as well.

The price performance of Pinaka has not gone unnoticed by the prospective buyer nations and there indeed have been interest expressed to acquire the same. In order that India gets a foot print in Defence Exports, L&T has been exploring export of weapon delivery systems, and Defence Engineering Systems. However, besides necessary clearances from GoI, P-P-P model will need to be created to make the exports happen given that there are multiple stakeholders in Pinaka Viz. OFB for ammunition, BEML for Vehicles & Ground systems, L&T and Tata Power for Weapon Delivery systems.


SKC: How difficult is it to get test facilities?

JDP: It used to be impossible but for a visionary Senior Official’s pragmatic decision making, which allowed internal trials. At that time it was a tall decision. The foreign OEMs were also allowed the same internal trial time on a level playing basis. This achieved a win-win, having familiarised well with the equipment for a month. So this made a big difference.

The past four programmes for the Army we participated into, before these guns, you want to know why we couldn’t come through. We were more than 98 % compliant. We had never fired and tuned the system at ranges as these won’t be available. Our experience was that trial team comes out with some surprise at the last moment (never documented in RFP or Trial procedures before moving to ranges) and insists testing be done that way to result in an inference that – “you have not met this requirement”. Being 98% complete in the first attempt is no mean achievement in competition with Global majors who were facilitated by their users and Govts for developing systems for their country. When offering it to India they offer a serially produced (mature) system after building 100s and 1000s earlier. Our system of user trials used to be completely non level playing in that sense. In T-72 Fire control system -our user did not give us a tank, we were told to bring all subsystems and integrate at ranges in a few weeks and start shooting trial in 15 days! This is not how anyone should evaluate and buy systems. The process was just completely against Indian players.

Today I can tell you that one user (from the Army) who has supported Indigenisation is Artillery. Artillery has actually made a difference, and that’s exactly why Artillery has a series of successful acquisition programmes. Pinaka has been inducted and more regiments are on the cards. BM 21 upgrade has been contracted and delivery is about to begin. Tracked SP Gun contract is under negotiations, Ultra-Light howitzers are about to be concluded, Towed Guns trials have been successfully concluded paving way for contract discussions after GS evaluation conclusion, and Dhanush program at OFB is being hand held with active support and facilitation during development as well as testing. Other Army Users, need to assimilate Artillery’s learning & approach to evaluation to procure indigenous systems (made in India), and Indian Industry gets what is due.


Sounds like the Army has it's own IN style indigenization story here

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2016 05:07

IA way of procurement needs complete overhaul to get in line with what Arty achieved with Pinaka.

The past four programmes for the Army we participated into, before these guns, you want to know why we couldn’t come through. [We were more than 98 % compliant. We had never fired and tuned the system at ranges as these won’t be available. Our experience was that trial team comes out with some surprise at the last moment (never documented in RFP or Trial procedures before moving to ranges) and insists testing be done that way to result in an inference that – “you have not met this requirement”. Being 98% complete in the first attempt is no mean achievement in competition with Global majors who were facilitated by their users and Govts for developing systems for their country. When offering it to India they offer a serially produced (mature) system after building 100s and 1000s earlier. Our system of user trials used to be completely non level playing in that sense. In T-72 Fire control system -our user did not give us a tank, we were told to bring all subsystems and integrate at ranges in a few weeks and start shooting trial in 15 days! This is not how anyone should evaluate and buy systems. The process was just completely against Indian players.
Last edited by Karan M on 20 Mar 2016 05:11, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2016 05:09

JDP: The first two regiments of Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher System (MBRL) Pinaka were inducted over 2006-2010. L&T, updated the Pinaka systems to state-of-the art levels rather than build obsolescent systems that underwent user acceptance during the late 90s. This was made feasible as DRDO (ARDE) was AHSP and facilitated concurrent re-engineering dovetailing with the same with production program. This model needs to be replicated to gain a decade in life of our cutting edge weapon systems. Having built and delivered technologically ‘current’ systems, L&T has been supporting user regiments on as needed (call) basis as a national endeavour in line with our commitment to the Indian Artillery Forces, awaiting formalising this relationship through Life Support contracts.

We await contract for supply of further two regiments by FY16. Induction of six more regiments has been cleared by Defence Acquisition Council in December, 2015, and we await contract for these in FY 2017. As designers of the systems, L&T, Tatas and DRDO (Armament Research and Development Establishment) have planned upgrades with the user involvement to address obsolescence so that what we deliver in 2017-20 would be again technologically state-of-the-art and thus obviating need for upgrade until these are exploited for at least a decade or more.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 20 Mar 2016 07:38

Karan M wrote:IA way of procurement needs complete overhaul to get in line with what Arty achieved with Pinaka.

The past four programmes for the Army we participated into, before these guns, you want to know why we couldn’t come through. [We were more than 98 % compliant. We had never fired and tuned the system at ranges as these won’t be available. Our experience was that trial team comes out with some surprise at the last moment (never documented in RFP or Trial procedures before moving to ranges) and insists testing be done that way to result in an inference that – “you have not met this requirement”. Being 98% complete in the first attempt is no mean achievement in competition with Global majors who were facilitated by their users and Govts for developing systems for their country. When offering it to India they offer a serially produced (mature) system after building 100s and 1000s earlier. Our system of user trials used to be completely non level playing in that sense. In T-72 Fire control system -our user did not give us a tank, we were told to bring all subsystems and integrate at ranges in a few weeks and start shooting trial in 15 days! This is not how anyone should evaluate and buy systems. The process was just completely against Indian players.


WOW - words fail me :eek:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22733 » 20 Mar 2016 09:34

srin wrote:
Karan M wrote: Our system of user trials used to be completely non level playing in that sense. In T-72 Fire control system -our user did not give us a tank, we were told to bring all subsystems and integrate at ranges in a few weeks and start shooting trial in 15 days! This is not how anyone should evaluate and buy systems. The process was just completely against Indian players.


WOW - words fail me :eek:


Indeed. What a mess! and we wonder here why aren't there any Indian weapon producers. Because they were killed off by vested interests.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 20 Mar 2016 11:19

Compare the stringent evaluation of Indian products with friendly clearance of Smerch by Army in CAG reports.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 20 Mar 2016 11:48

^Forget stringent. Asking the indigenous tank fire control system to be proven within 15 days as compared to testing of mature systems from foreign suppliers is noting short of treasonous or are these people so retarded?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 20 Mar 2016 14:04

Funny thing is that imported system still fail but are anyway imported

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby arshyam » 20 Mar 2016 18:47

Another avalanche, this time in Kargil.

Kargil Avalanche: Search Ops Intensify for Missing Soldier, Rescued Personnel Stable - ANI, TNIE
UDHAMPUR: Following the avalanche which hit an Army Post located at an altitude of 17500 feet in Kargil Sector of Jammu and Kashmir, search operations on Sunday intensified for the missing soldier, while the rescued personnel’s condition is now stable.

With the bad weather acting as a major impediment in the rescue operations, teams are still hard at work to locate the missing soldier who was swept away in the avalanche while on surveillance duty. <snip>


The missing soldier didn't survive.
Kargil Avalanche: Body of Jawan Retrieved From Under 12-ft Snow - PTI, TNIE
SRINAGAR: Army teams today recovered the body of a soldier who had gone missing following an avalanche in Kargil area of Jammu and Kashmir.

"Rescue teams of army on the third day of a gruelling search operation managed to recover the mortal remains of Sepoy Vijay Kumar K from under 12 feet of snow," a defence spokesman said here.

He said the search operation continued for three days despite adverse weather conditions and up to 15 feet of snow in the area of avalanche.

Rescue dogs, deep penetration radars and metal detectors were also pressed into service, he said.

"Vijay, who belongs to Vallaramapuram village of Thirunelvelli District of Tamil Nadu, is survived by his parents and two younger sisters.

"Army is in the process of evacuating his mortal remains from the area after which it will be moved to his native place where the cremation ceremony will take place with full military honours," the spokesman said.

Sepoy Sujit, the soldier who was rescued on the first day itself, is medically stable and recovering well, he said.

Lt Gen D S Hooda, Army Commander Northern Command, has expressed his deep condolence to the family of Vijay Kumar K, the spokesman said.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 21 Mar 2016 08:27

Gyan wrote:Compare the stringent evaluation of Indian products with friendly clearance of Smerch by Army in CAG reports.


Please educate common folks about 'friendly' part of clearance given to Smerch during evaluation.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 21 Mar 2016 08:37

Received by email


The issue is regarding Insurance for Serving Military Personnel.

Presently the monthly insurance premium is Rs 5000 for officers and Rs 2500 for JCOs for a sum assured of 50 lakhs and 25 lakh respectively, which is deducted from their salary.


The Mkt Rate for 'Normal Life Insurance' (without covering war and other risk of war and terror ops) for a ANNUAL premium of RS 4000 for a sum assured of Rs 1 crore.

The heavier premium paid by soldiers is about 220% higher than normal due to the additional war and terror risks.


Govt does not fund the Army Group Insurance Scheme at all and the soldiers not only risk their life for the country but also pay in cash for taking such risks.

The salaries of the officers who are posted to HQ AGIF to manage these activities are again paid from corpus raised from the salaries and not by the Govt. (The money is refunded to CDAs by AGIF)


In other countries like the USA,every soldier is insured regardless of rank for a monthly premium of 27 dollars for sum assured of 4 lakh dollars. This is made possible by the federal govt law by which the heavy premium is borne by the federal govt.

In India, we virtually and effectively ask the soldiers to risk their lives and also pay for it too.

SO YOU THOUGHT EVERYTHING IS FREE IN ARMED FORCES....YOU ARE VERY RIGHT ...THE LIVES PROTECTING YOU ARE FREE.....THEY PAY FROM THEIR SALARY FOR THEIR INSURANCE SHOULD THEY DIE PROTECTING YOU.

EVERYTHING IS FREE IN ARMED FORCES....THE SOLDIERS DIE FOR FREE

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rkhanna » 21 Mar 2016 10:51

Karan M
Post subject: Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2016
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^^ Its just baffling to me, a mango man, how current Modi sarkar has completely ignored the punitive aspect of acting against many of these vested interests. Their efforts on development etc are sought to be countered, given how perceptions are shaped.


Report this post
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Akshay Kapoor
Post subject: Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2016
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Its the advice they get. And who will act ? Its the same babus who have to act. Take the cases against Vadra. Couldn't they have been used to get the congress to pass stalled legislation ? Pressure can be applied but you need both brains and balls to do it.



Sometimes I think we are living in a delusion that this Government is any better. The IPS/IAS form the backbone of the Protective Cordon that protects our Politicians and in turn they get protected by the Politicians.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby saadhak » 21 Mar 2016 20:41

Capt Raghu Raman - TEDx diversity in Indian Army

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5XptU6-Vm0

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby arshyam » 22 Mar 2016 20:35

From BR news section.
General Dalbir Singh Pays Homage to Soldier Killed in Avalanche in Kargil Sector
General Dalbir Singh, the Chief of the Army Staff, paid homage by laying wreath on the mortal remains of Sepoy Vijaya Kumar K, who lost his life in an avalanche triggered by a mild earthquake in Kargil Sector on 17 March 2016. In a solemn wreath laying ceremony at Base Hospital Delhi Cantonment today, General Dalbir Singh expressed his deep condolences to his family of Sepoy Vijaya Kumar K and stated that the Army is proud of soldiers like him, who despite great difficulties in the most inhospitable conditions, defend our borders with utmost dedication.

Army rescue teams had managed to recover the mortal remains of the soldier from under twelve feet of snow on the third day of a grueling search operation. Avalanche rescue dogs, deep penetration radars and metal detectors were also pressed into service in the rescue operation.

The mortal remains of 23 years old Sepoy Vijaya Kumar K was moved from Kargil to Leh on 21 March 2016. A wreath laying ceremony was conducted at Leh early in the morning on 22 March 2016 after which the mortal remains were transported to Delhi by air.

The mortal remains of the brave soldier’s will reach Thiruvananthapuram by air on night of 22 March 2016. They would thereafter be transported to his home town in Tirunelveli (Tamil Nadu) by road, where the cremation ceremony will take place with full military honours, tentatively on 23 March 2016.

The brave soldier belongs to Vallaramapuram village of Thirunelvelli District of Tamil Nadu and is survived by his parents and two younger sisters. A write up on Sepoy Vijaya Kumar K is attached.

Col Rohan Anand, SM

PRO (Army)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Kakkaji » 23 Mar 2016 00:32

chetak wrote:Received by email


The issue is regarding Insurance for Serving Military Personnel.

Presently the monthly insurance premium is Rs 5000 for officers and Rs 2500 for JCOs for a sum assured of 50 lakhs and 25 lakh respectively, which is deducted from their salary.


The Mkt Rate for 'Normal Life Insurance' (without covering war and other risk of war and terror ops) for a ANNUAL premium of RS 4000 for a sum assured of Rs 1 crore.

The heavier premium paid by soldiers is about 220% higher than normal due to the additional war and terror risks.


Govt does not fund the Army Group Insurance Scheme at all and the soldiers not only risk their life for the country but also pay in cash for taking such risks.

The salaries of the officers who are posted to HQ AGIF to manage these activities are again paid from corpus raised from the salaries and not by the Govt. (The money is refunded to CDAs by AGIF)


In other countries like the USA,every soldier is insured regardless of rank for a monthly premium of 27 dollars for sum assured of 4 lakh dollars. This is made possible by the federal govt law by which the heavy premium is borne by the federal govt.

In India, we virtually and effectively ask the soldiers to risk their lives and also pay for it too.

SO YOU THOUGHT EVERYTHING IS FREE IN ARMED FORCES....YOU ARE VERY RIGHT ...THE LIVES PROTECTING YOU ARE FREE.....THEY PAY FROM THEIR SALARY FOR THEIR INSURANCE SHOULD THEY DIE PROTECTING YOU.

EVERYTHING IS FREE IN ARMED FORCES....THE SOLDIERS DIE FOR FREE


If true, this is morally wrong. The Govt should pay the premiums for life insurance for soldiers.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 23 Mar 2016 08:12

Kakkaji wrote:If true, this is morally wrong. The Govt should pay the premiums for life insurance for soldiers.
It's true.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 23 Mar 2016 08:36

So thumb rule calculation is that Insurence Companies earn 10 times more then they spend from soldiers for Insurance.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby ArmenT » 23 Mar 2016 09:05

New article up on the BRF Army Site, courtesy of Brigadier Rattan Kaul:
Battle of Pakokku (Irrawady River Operations)

Enjoy!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby BharadwajV » 25 Mar 2016 15:01

Some sweet news for the Arty units of the IA:
The first 3 Dhanush 155 mm howtizers have been delivered to the Army. So the first 'new' artillery in 3 decades has come from desi sources.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/713278735445667840

Early Deepavali for the Army!
8)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 28 Mar 2016 04:16

^^ Anything on the status of the Bharat Forge 155 mm gun?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 03 Apr 2016 08:20

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 17052.html

First battalion of Indian Gorkhas is born-Comprises only Indian domiciles instead of Nepalese troops as in other Gorkha units of Army
This is the first Gorkha battalion to have come up in 50 years. The new battalion, the Sixth Battalion of the First Gorkha Rifles (6/1GR), christened “Kanchi Paltan”, has been raised at Sabathu in the Shivalik foothills near Shimla, that houses the 14 Gorkha Training Centre.
In 1815, the British had raised the first Gorkha battalion, 1/1 GR, from the remnants of General Amar Singh Thapa’s forces following the Gurkha War fought between the Gorkha kings of Nepal and British East India Company.
Col Avaneesh Chambial is the battalion’s first Commanding Officer. The recruits for the battalion had been undergoing training at the centre for the past nine months and the battalion’s regimental flag was unfurled by the Colonel of the First Gorkha Rifles, Lt Gen Ravi Thogde, at a ceremonial parade on Friday.
The Army has several Gorkha regiments — 1GR, 3GR, 4GR, 5GR, 8GR, 9GR and 11 GR. The stipulated ratio of composition of these regiments between Nepalese and Indian domicile Gorkhas is about 70:30. In some units it is 60:40.
The Army’s plans are that each Gorkha regiment will raise an additional battalion in due course as part of the approved force accretions and the ongoing organisational restructuring.
A senior officer said more Gorkhas of Indian domicile i.e. those settled in the hilly regions of northern India and the North-East and even other parts of the country would be recruited and Gorkha regiments were envisioned to have a pan-India footprint. The minimum educational qualification for Gorkha troops was also being raised from matriculation to Class XII.
Three years ago, the Army had raised the Sikkim Scouts comprising locally recruited youth from the state for deployment in the border regions. The unit has been affiliated with 11 GR.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 03 Apr 2016 08:52

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities ... ion-cases/
In U-turn, Defence ministry, Army to file appeals in disability pension cases

In a turnaround from the stated policy of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, his ministry and the Army headquarters have issued instructions to government lawyers to once again start filing appeals in the Supreme Court, against pension granted to disabled soldiers by the armed forces tribunals and the high courts.Red-flagging the MoD’s latest move, veterans’ organisations have cautioned that vested interests are not willing to implement the vision of the Prime Minister and Defence Minister for reducing litigation in the defence services.In one such letter, the All India Ex-Servicemen Welfare Association, headed by Bhim Sen Sehgal, has stated that “litigation clearly seems to have become a lucrative business”. The association has further alleged that entities in the government were in favour of filing direct appeals in the SC, rather than high courts, from the AFT, since it would be difficult for the aggrieved veterans to afford the cases.
Sources said the law regarding disability benefits is now well settled in favour of disabled soldiers by a series of recent HC and SC decisions but still some officers show excessive interest in appealing, causing a burden both on the exchequer as well as the litigant without allegedly informing the correct position to the Defence Minister. In fact, Parrikar has already asked the ministry to take action on an Expert Committee Report which had slammed the past practice of the ministry and the defence services in dealing with disabilities based on outdated procedures.The expert panel had directed the withdrawal of all such pending appeals in the SC against disabled soldiers and had recorded that there was inherent stress and strain in military service which aggravates disabilities and while the rules on disability pension were apt and liberal, their implementation was rigid and impractical.[b] Deprecating the rejection of disability benefits for ‘domestic reasons’, the panel had noted that situated away from their families most part of the year, soldiers cannot efficiently fulfill all familial requirements which leads to stress. For the first time it was also noted that even non-fulfillment of sexual needs by virtue of being away from spouse contributes to stress and all such realities were being conveniently ignored and stress and strain of military life was b[/b]eing wrongly compared with other professions.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 03 Apr 2016 10:45

Looks like c system moles run deep.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 04 Apr 2016 13:35

Does it take a Russian to die to tell us that we have better ones closer home?
“Bring down the Fire on Me”: Circa 1999 Our Own Tales of Sheer Courage

In the last week of March 2016, many of us were awestruck by the courage and patriotism of Russian Officer Lt Alexander Prokhorenko who when surrounded by ISIS and with no possible means of escape, in ISIS infested Palmyra in Syria, took the decision to call airstrike on his own location by calling in Russian warplanes to obliterate his location.

This Special Forces soldier, was on a secret mission. He has since been hailed as a hero in his native Russia and even nick named the Russian Rambo. He is being awarded the highest bravery award of Russia “Hero of the Russia” by the President Vladmir Putin.

The whole world including Russia’s former adversaries are saluting this act of sheer bravery. Some former US & NATO veterans have openly saluted their enemy officer. Only a man in uniform knows how hard it is to take such a decision where one is willing to sacrifice oneself provided the enemy too is destroyed.

Well this incident has opened up memories yet again where the Heroes this time are not Russian and location is not any foreign land. It is located in our very own India where the Braveheart’s were none other than my course mates Chow and PeeKay and 80 odd officers and men of a fantastic Battalion.

Year 1999. Somewhere in the Drass Sector in Kargil. Peak of offensive against the Pakis in progress to dislodge them from each of the peaks they infiltrated. Time early morning 3 AM. Night of 02/03 July. A fierce attack on Tiger Hill is planned but it was important to divert enemy attention to another feature nearby. Hence this special Battalion is tasked to attack Point 5100- another feature nearby supported by Artillery in a diversionary attack while the main attack at Tiger Hill progresses.

80 brave well trained officers and men that included the Forward Observation Officers Maj Chow and Maj Peekay inched their way on a 75 degree incline, slippery ice, with just 1 meter width, all moving up in one line. As they neared their target, they suddenly realized that they were within 50 meters of a well-entrenched enemy who surrounded them quickly and fired at will and our boys immediately took casualties.

For over many hours they battled their way but were losing men faster than they could afford as Paki’s were sitting on vantage positions and were firing at will. To top it all, Paki’s brought down accurate observed artillery fire on our men, and the shells were causing more destruction. That is when these brave-hearts who were in the line of fire took the decision to bring down own Bofors Artillery fire on their own location.

Just 12 guns of Chow’s unit was in range about 24 kms behind. Chow radioed back to direct fire and gave his own location as reference. The Brigade Major who heard this panicked and announced that the Officer did not know how to read his Map. Chow insisted that they fire on the location that was given. With the enemy 50 meters away he did not have to be told that there is no safety distance that he could play with. He went ahead in a game plan that involved getting killed by his own shell.

Kargil War 1999

For the next two hours, Artillery fire was directed on their own location. Our men, dug fox holes to save themselves from our own shells, and amidst the smoke and fire, Chow and Peekay directed accurate Arty fire on the enemy positions. Each round that landed on their position could be the last round of their life, yet for them the mission now was to save the 80 people with them. During the gaps in the fire, the Battalion quickly evacuated the injured and dead. Our accurate fire surprised the Paki’s. They could no longer direct their own arty fire. They no longer could pick on our soldiers at will. Our men were in the open just covered by our own arty fire. They survived the whole day.

When it was dark again they evacuated all the injured to 20 kms away to an air head, through sheer super human effort. We lost about 18 comrades that day. But for that decision to bring fire on own location many more could have been lost. Luckily, Chow and PeeKay are alive to recount their tale today.

This operation divided the Paki efforts and attention, which eased out pressure for the Battalion tasked to capture Tiger Hill and that was achieved a day later.

PeeKay was awarded a Sena Medal for Gallantry. Chow received splinter injuries and a GOC in C Commendation Card. Many in the Battalion were awarded for their grit and bravery. Chow’s Arty unit was bestowed the Battle Honour “Kargil”.But no one spoke of these incidents till last week when the headlines transported them back in time.

This is their story. This their heroism. Both these brave men, and others involved in the operations today are serving officers and I cannot reveal more. This is my Salute to them. Our Brave hearts.

My wish is – if and only if these incidents were documented for posterity, our Forces could learn from. I also hope our hierarchy could honour these men appropriately for their sheer courage, and honour them befittingly. So that others can imbibe the spirit of ‘Never say Die’ attitude.

Does it take a Russian to die to tell us that we have better ones closer home? And many of those are sitting at Jantar Mantar asking for their just dues.

My Question to You is – Have we as a Nation, let these Brave men down?


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 04 Apr 2016 13:40

A big Thank you Shiv, for posting this.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 04 Apr 2016 13:59

Indian Tales of Heroism usually involve ordinary Indians who speak Hindi, Bhojpuri, Dharwad Kannada or Tulu. For the story to reach our English reading eyes it has to get past the anglophile media controllers of India led by stalwarts like Turdesai, Ghose, that bowtie bugger, or DButt. They are simply not interested in this kind of stuff.

On the other hand the media of nations like Russia, the US and even Britainistan take pains to write out these things - in the English media of course and English reading Indians pick that up. So we are all up to date about Western accounts of heroism, who was the best sniper of them all, how he killed all the baddies; how it felt to come under intense Iraqi fire, and what Patton said. The heroes we remember and identify with are in the West.

These are our people. Just two moving minutes. Never fails to stir me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8jW9LlTrZY


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