Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Singha
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 06 May 2016 14:58

Image

General V.K. Singh
Page Liked · 30 mins ·

Harish Nayani, an ex-NDA, erstwhile IAF fighter pilot, now a Captain flying for Indigo Airlines, had a war-hero passenger on his flight the other day.

Naik Deep Chand, who lost both his legs and one arm in the 1999 Kargil War, was flying Indigo. Harish announced the presence of the war hero on the flight, to the delighted applause of 180 passengers.

This is all the recognition war heroes need, for acts no nation can repay them for.

via The Logical Indian

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Austin » 06 May 2016 15:02

Thats a Great Gesture from ex IAF Fighter Pilot , Perhaps being from a Service Background he must have appreciated his immense Sacrifice to the Nation.

Naik Deep Chand certainly deserves our Respect and Salute.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 06 May 2016 16:31

God bless these gentlemen. It is because of the selfless devotion to duty of such persons that we can live our lives in peace

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2016 17:34

Beautiful gesture by Air Commodore Nayani.

Harish Nayani was instrumental in making the Bisons operational.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/17135

Also notice the Tejas pin. He was a former Tejas test pilot.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 06 May 2016 18:49

I remember an interesting story, many years old now. I met an IAF person who had been injured in enemy action, at a office of Vice Chancellor of University. He had come to make special request for admission of his daughter whose admission form was filed late (due to transfers and such). He told me that when he met the VC, he was amazed when the VC signed the exemption in a second and told him " you were not late when it mattered". We should all learn to Respect for our veterans and soldiers.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 11 May 2016 18:35

DPR released picture of Ex Chakravyuh-II.

Fist pic that I've seen of Konkur ATGM mounted on TATA 2.5 tonne truck.

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 11 May 2016 18:52

Soldiers losing money and status



Soldiers losing money and status
Tuesday, 10 May 2016 | Anil Gupta | in Oped

The Armed Forces had hoped that the Seventh Pay Commission would correct past anomalies and bring the men in uniform at par with their civilian counterparts. This was not to be. Now, the Prime Minister must intervene and ensure just pay and stature for the military

Ever since the Seventh Pay Commission report has been made public, there has been a sense of resentment in the Armed Forces community. While the veterans were battling for One Rank One Pension, the men in uniform were hopeful that the Pay Commission would deliver justice by correcting the anomalies of the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Pay Commissions. But this was not to be.

Having learnt from experience, the three Service chiefs immediately swung into action to not only douse the simmering fire in the rank and file but also plan a joint strategy to reach out to the Government. The Seventh Pay Commission had not only failed to resolve the anomalies of the previous pay commissions but had added further salt to the injury by equating the status of the Armed Forces of India with that of the Central Armed police Forces. The Pay Commission also went beyond its charter and tried tinkering with the terms and conditions of service of the rank and file. The Armed Forces were harmed both monetarily as well as protocol-wise.

The basis of the report is a study carried out by the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses, a strategic think-tank, comparing the pay of Indian Armed Forces with that of certain foreign armies of developed countries. The competence of the IDSA to carry out such a study is questionable. Moreover, why only have the Armed Forces been singled out for such a comparison? Why not review the terms of service for the other Services, such as the Indian Administrative Service, the Indian Foreign Service and the Indian Forest Service to name a few? The answer is simple: The study was designed to reduce the salary, perks and status of the Armed Forces.

Soldiers worry that history is repeating itself. Every Pay Commission since 1973 has been unfair to the Armed Forces but there was major resentment with the Sixth Pay Commission in 2008. It led to a showdown between the three Service chiefs and the politico-bureaucratic establishment. The Services requested the Government to have their representative in the Committee of Secretaries to look into the anomalies. The request was based on the logic that 30 per cent of Central Government employees affected by the Pay Commission belonged to the Armed Forces.

The request was not granted but an assurance was given that the military’s concerns would be addressed with sympathy and without prejudice. The Service chiefs conceded but were later aghast by the committee’s Government approved report. The Services found that not only were their major grievances not addressed, three more discrepancies had been introduced in the final Cabinet notification. The Service chiefs were let down in front of the Forces and humiliated. They took up the matter separately with the Defence Minister and the Prime Minister, and realised that the real villain was the Ministry of Defence, which had presented a weak case for the Forces, without relevant supporting documents.

The Sixth Pay Commission was worse than the Fifth Pay Commission, wherein the Armed Forces had pointed out 48 anomalies, of which only eight were resolved. Fortunately, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, a no non-sense officer, was the Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee then. He convinced his two colleagues to delay the implementation of flawed Sixth Pay Commission. The decision was communicated by Service headquarters to the rank and file through a signal message. The message was received with great jubilation, which sent jitters to the politico-bureaucratic nexus.

There were adverse comments in certain quarters of the media as well. Veteran journalist Nitin Gokhale openly supported the Service chiefs. He wrote, “If the said ‘signal’, as the communication is called in military parlance, is defiance, then no military chief will ever be able to give assurances to, and take, his men in confidence. Anyone who has dealt with the Armed Forces will tell you that there is not an iota of truth in the canard that is being spread about the three Chiefs ‘defying’ the civil authorities. Yes, they questioned the bureaucracy’s attempts to wittingly or unwittingly introduce pay and status disparities between the Armed Forces and their civilian counterparts. Yes they took the matter to Prime Minister but in no way did they defy the Government.”

The bold stand taken by the three Chiefs had the desired result and the Prime Minister appointed a group of Ministers to resolve the grievances of the Armed Forces. Some of the main points were immediately settled and the Services accepted the Sixth Pay Commission. But the MOD continued to play truant, and the unresolved anomalies were referred to the Seventh Pay Commission.

The continued apathy of the bureaucracy towards men in uniform is perplexing. World over the Armed Forces are placed on a different pedestal but in our country, under the garb of ensuring civil supremacy, the politico-bureaucratic nexus works against the interests of the Armed Forces.

Knowing that the Armed Forces are unhappy with the treatment meted to them by the Seventh Pay Commission, efforts are being made through the media to spread lies. The latest attempt is an article in a leading national daily titled, “Our Service chiefs may earn more than US generals”. It states that for the first time, the three chiefs will draw more salary than their US counterparts, based on purchasing power parity terms, when the Seventh Pay Commission is implemented. The PPP comparison is misleading and flawed. How can the salary of officers of two different armies, having different terms and conditions of service, be compared? Moreover, the figures quoted in the article were exaggerated as was evident from another news item published a few days later in another daily, titled “Indian Service chiefs earn less than top US general reveals new data.”

Such articles are aimed at creating confusion among the rank and file, and sowing the seeds of distrust between officers and jawans. No nation, more so India, can afford to have a disgruntled military. All grievances of the Armed Forces must be addressed sympathetically and without prejudice. The Prime Minister must intervene to ensure that the justice is done and the widening rift in civil-military relations halted.

(The writer is a retired Army officer, and security & strategic affairs analyst)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srai » 11 May 2016 19:08

^^^

Reduce manpower in order to pay the soldiers better and keep them well equipped with latest wares. Given the size of the Indian defense budget, it can't support both excess manpower and latest cutting-edge weaponry.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 11 May 2016 19:45

srai wrote:^^^

Reduce manpower in order to pay the soldiers better and keep them well equipped with latest wares. Given the size of the Indian defense budget, it can't support both excess manpower and latest cutting-edge weaponry.



excess manpower??

If the politicos and baboo(n)s cannot manage because they have nil domain expertise, some one has to pickup the slack :twisted:

Why was advantage after advantage, hard won in battle, at tremendous cost of soldiers lives, cheaply bartered or foolishly gifted away because of arseholism by the politicos and baboo(n)s.

Though I am a Modi bakth and will remain so, I just cannot wrap my head around the extremely foolish pakistan policy of this govt. As things start to go south, it's the forces that will pay the price in blood and mangled limbs.

The forces are screaming for quality and not quantity of recruits. If you pay peanuts, all you will get are monkeys.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 11 May 2016 20:29

Chetak ji, correct me if I am wrong, if we follow 7CPC recommendations, freshly recruited jawans will draw a package of 4 lakh p.a (counting only basic pay, MSP, HRA and T.A) while a newly recruited officer at the rank of a Lt. will draw a starting package of 11 lakh p.a (counting only basic pay, MSP, HRA and T.A)
a military officer would from the start enjoy a flat differential of Rs 15,500 as MSP over his civilian counterparts i.e about 20%. unlike other allowances this one is also used for DA calculations, providing forces officers a higher DA bump than their civilian counterparts.
which means he will see an yearly bump of at least 1 lakh p.a for the first few years of his service (higher later)

in addition he/she would also have access to a true pension scheme fully paid for by the govt, highly subsidised CSD canteens and far better medical facilities than civilian employees.
7 CPC has also agreed to NFU for forces officers.

doesn't look like all that bad a deal to me.

7th CPC report to be found at : http://7cpc.india.gov.in/
pg 107 has the pay matrix for defence personnel.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_29350 » 11 May 2016 20:33

Fist pic that I've seen of Konkur ATGM mounted on TATA 2.5 tonne truck.


Looks like LRDG style of desert warfare trucks except Paki deserts are not that huge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Desert_Group

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 11 May 2016 21:22

Rahul M wrote:Chetak ji, correct me if I am wrong, if we follow 7CPC recommendations, freshly recruited jawans will draw a package of 4 lakh p.a (counting only basic pay, MSP, HRA and T.A) while a newly recruited officer at the rank of a Lt. will draw a starting package of 11 lakh p.a (counting only basic pay, MSP, HRA and T.A)
a military officer would from the start enjoy a flat differential of Rs 15,500 as MSP over his civilian counterparts i.e about 20%. unlike other allowances this one is also used for DA calculations, providing forces officers a higher DA bump than their civilian counterparts.
which means he will see an yearly bump of at least 1 lakh p.a for the first few years of his service (higher later)

in addition he/she would also have access to a true pension scheme fully paid for by the govt, highly subsidised CSD canteens and far better medical facilities than civilian employees.
7 CPC has also agreed to NFU for forces officers.

doesn't look like all that bad a deal to me.


highly subsidised CSD canteens and far better medical facilities than civilian employees.
is a common myth. What one needs is almost never available. many Unknown, un sellable brands are pushed.The CSDs remain sparsely stocked for most part of any month. Many simply just do not use the CSD, serving and retired.

Hospital, less said the better. This is common across the board, not only in kolkata. This is not just a one off case. Numerous such cases are just not reported because the folks involved simply give up rather than continue to face humiliation. The civilians all go direct to manipal hospital and other such places and do not face such excruciating bureaucratic hurdles

Received by email


Sub: Failure of the ECHS empaneled hospital system and Refusal of admission to Command Hospital ICU, Kolkata in an emergency case relating to a retired Air Force Officer


Dear Sir,
With regard to the above, I would like to draw your kind attention to the following:

1. My father, Gp. Capt Arun Kanti Mukherjee, VRC, VM (retd), aged 84 years, service No.4416, ECHS registration no. DL0011776, has been ailing for some time. On 2nd May 2016 morning his health took a turn for the worse. Since we live in Salt Lake, my immediate thought was to take him to the ECHS empaneled hospital, AMRI, Salt Lake since all ECHS centers have large notices displaying the process to be followed in case of an emergency. However, before doing so, I personally went to ECHS Polyclinic at Sector 5, Salt Lake to find out the status of empanelment of AMRI, Salt Lake. The Medical Officer heard me out and told me that even though AMRI Hospital is having some problems with ECHS, I should immediately take him to their emergency department and get him admitted. However, I should keep the ambulance on stand by incase a shift to Command Hospital is necessary.

2. By 9 AM, I had moved my father to AMRI Salt Lake, Emergency. However, upon showing them the ECHS card, they sent me to their Corporate desk to find out if admission is possible or not. After waiting for 20 minutes, I was told that since there are bill payment problems between AMRI and ECHS, they will not be able to admit the patient without the requisite permission letter from ECHS, Salt Lake.

3. Once again I went back to ECHS, Sector 5 Salt Lake. This time I met the OIC of the poly clinic. I explained the problem and he assured me that if I were to take my father to Command Hospital, he would be attended to immediately and Command Hospital is the best place to take such patients. He had been assured by the Command Hospital top brass that even if patients have to be placed on the floor, no one would be turned away. The OIC even took the trouble to ring up the Dy. Commandant, Command Hospital and alerted them to my father’s imminent arrival.

4. I returned to AMRI, Salt Lake, got him released and took him to Command Hospital in an ambulance, a distance of about 20 kms negotiated in peak time traffic and in the searing 40 C temperatures currently prevailing in Kolkata. I reached Command Hospital by about 11-11.15 AM.

5. There was no one to help to unload the stretcher. Finally a Jawan (wearing a ‘may I help you’ sash) was deputed. My father was unloaded onto a trolley and as I was paying off the ambulance, I was given a mouthful by him for not properly helping to push the trolley to emergency. Anyhow, this letter is not about this, I mention this only as a precursor to what followed.

6. In emergency, a chest x-ray was advised. 2 signatures and several rubber stamps later (for which I was doing the running around), me pushing the trolley with the assistance of one other person from emergency, my father was sent to radiology. After waiting for more than half an hour, an x-ray was done. Once again, my father’s trolley was maneuvered back to emergency (this time by me alone as the man who had helped to push it to radiology had disappeared). Incidentally, the x-ray was not a digital one.

7. After looking at the x-ray, and other clinical symptoms the doctor on duty said that ‘right sided pneumonia’ has been detected and ICU admission is advised. However there is no bed available in ICU in Command Hospital.

8. Shortly thereafter, the pulmonary specialist also came in and said that “if you want, we can recommend an ECHS empaneled hospital”, In other words, back to square one and run the merry go-round again and again till we give up or the patient dies.

9. I then went to the Dy. Commandant’s office to meet him personally. He was away in a meeting. I met his PA, reminded him about OIC, ECHS Salt Lake’s phone call earlier in the morning. The PA was kind enough to send a note into the meeting room asking for guidance. Word was sent back to the effect that “the patient can be taken away”.

10. Finally, after giving up all hope of getting any treatment in Command Hospital, sometime after 2 PM, my father was reloaded into the ambulance and taken away from Command Hospital.
It may be noted that in this entire duration, my father was not given even a sip of water (let alone any medication or oxygen), while the catheter attached to a urine bag showed his urine turning a bright yellow-orange. I am no doctor but as a lay person even I know that bright yellow-orange urine indicates dehydration at dangerous levels.

Sir, I neither require nor expect a reply from you because I am reasonably certain that all I will get are platitudes. However, I would request you to introspect and ask yourselves the following:
- Do bureaucratic processes take precedence over attending to the needs of a critically ill patient?
- Is the brotherhood of the Defence forces, the humanity and the Hippocratic oath of doctors in the Army, a carefully constructed myth?
- Is this the response to be expected for a veteran of 3 wars (’62, ’65 and ’71) and an awardee of one of the highest military awards, the Vir Chakra? (A simple google search on his name will tell you his credentials)
- Is this the reward for my father who risked his life for the country during his service career?
- Are you putting into practice the old proverb that old soldiers never die, they just fade away?

Sir, it is quite alright if you feel that the Army Hospitals have no place for old soldiers who have lived honourably and not used ‘connections and contacts’ to get what medical treatment is due to them (on paper). I understand that the pressures of population, concerns about budgets and demands of VIPs constrain your actions. My only humble request is please (please) tell us this upfront. Have some human feeling for an ailing old man who has been unbearably harassed. Please inform us that the so called ECHS tie-up with hospitals is non-functional and we should fend for ourselves. Don’t treat an old soldier like a mangy street dog. Please allow us (civilians) to continue to believe that the Defence forces look after their own and we can send our sons and daughters to emulate the brave old man they call grandfather.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 12 May 2016 00:26

Singha wrote:Image


Harish Nayani, an ex-NDA, erstwhile IAF fighter pilot, now a Captain flying for Indigo Airlines, had a war-hero passenger on his flight the other day.
Naik Deep Chand, who lost both his legs and one arm in the 1999 Kargil War, was flying Indigo. Harish announced the presence of the war hero on the flight, to the delighted applause of 180 passengers.

This is all the recognition war heroes need, for acts no nation can repay them for.
via The Logical Indian


Thank you, Captain.
Thank you, again.

One Indian did it, I am sure the fire will spread.

Reminded me a movie Taking Chance where a Marine Corps Colonel offers to take the body of a dead marine to his parents.
He flies in an air-craft that is piloted by an Ex-Forces Pilot as well who is told he is carrying the mortal remains.

Upon landing he announces his cargo to his passengers and requests the passengers to allow the care taking Colonel to disembark first out of respect. What follows is a heart touching scene.

Watch from 0:50 onwards. I highly recommend watching the movie.
It is sheer courage , grit as the Colonel flies across the society and finds the civilians sometimes sleeping and sometimes very aware of the pain.



However returning to the story above, I am heartened to see what happened.
Just brilliant.

The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 13 May 2016 00:07

Any details of Exercise Chakravuyh-II?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 13 May 2016 22:28

ANIVerified account
‏@ANI_news
Lt.Gen NK Mehta(AOC) demoted to Brigadier on charges of fraud and malice by Armed Forces tribunal bench(Lucknow)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 15 May 2016 16:57

finally some syria style COTS acquisition agility shown in India ... prayers being answered

http://www.news18.com/news/india/itbp-t ... 43280.html

next would be give theater commanders wide latitude and a certain budget to source whatever they need from anywhere - like cots drones to keep an eye on cheen

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 15 May 2016 17:11

Army denies reports of 'mutiny' in northeast unit after jawan's death during training
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 279385.cms
"A case of death of a jawan during routine training activity has taken place in an infantry unit in the Northeast. It is not a case of any mutiny," the Army said in a statement.
It said the soldier complained of chest pain prior to a route march. He was checked by the medical officer and found fit. But the soldier collapsed during the training.
The Army said four to five soldiers got emotional when they were being consoled by a senior and "indulged in agitated behaviour leading to minor scuffle".
It said no one was injured seriously and the incident is being investigated.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 15 May 2016 19:30

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 15 May 2016 19:32

Way more capable than gypsy and scorpio

Tata safari should also be tried out

Toyotas have been proven in the toughest bush wars over decades now. Rock solid engine , electricals and trans behind plain looks

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby uddu » 15 May 2016 19:35

Camo paint missing?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 16 May 2016 20:38

uddu wrote:Camo paint missing?


Its a pissing contest on that border. These four SUVs have relatively little military value, good only for showing off.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby uddu » 17 May 2016 07:23

Nice dance by the Assam regiment


Interesting dance from Republic day parade function (old but nice video)


The first video is from the induction ceremony

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 17 May 2016 23:19

Jhujar wrote:ANIVerified account
‏@ANI_news
Lt.Gen NK Mehta(AOC) demoted to Brigadier on charges of fraud and malice by Armed Forces tribunal bench(Lucknow)



Wow! Two ranks down. Must be quite egregious finding.
What is malice charge?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srai » 18 May 2016 05:04

uddu wrote:...

Interesting dance from Republic day parade function (old but nice video)


...


Deadliest Warrior: Gurkhas(gorkhali) vs French Foreign Legion

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 18 May 2016 06:57

ON IA .What this mother did will shock you
Last edited by Prem on 18 May 2016 10:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 18 May 2016 07:40

ramana wrote:
Jhujar wrote:ANIVerified account
‏@ANI_news
Lt.Gen NK Mehta(AOC) demoted to Brigadier on charges of fraud and malice by Armed Forces tribunal bench(Lucknow)



Wow! Two ranks down. Must be quite egregious finding.
What is malice charge?


The guy will appeal.

This verdict is cosmetic. It should have been exemplary.

It should have included dismissal with disgrace and jail time.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 06:25



from the article
two Toyota Fortuner and as many Ford Endeavour, with a price tag of around Rs 25 lakh each, have been deployed by the border guarding force at some of its forward locations over 13,000 ft above the sea level at Burtse and Dungti in the Ladakh sector and Menchuka, over 6,000 ft, in Arunachal Pradesh.

this is big. nay huge. hat tip to BRO and others for making this happen.

p.s.: while the reporter mentions "over 6,000 ft at menchuka", these vehicles will be used at 13,600' in that sector.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 19 May 2016 09:32

^^^ Menchuka (Mechuka) is the end of motorable area on this axis. A few kilometers further is a Gurudwara (yes a Gurudwara) and then the place constricts into very tight and steep valley quickly rising above 10000 feet. We called the valley as Yarlong - Lebang valley.

Mechuka itself is a beautiful bowl (and will remind you of picture post card Switzerland) but the small bowl of Lebang will blow your mind away. Anyways, it did do that to me. Only mule tracks and soldiers go there. Occasional hunter but otherwise desolate. Yarlong used to have life threatening down draughts waiting to trap helicopters.

Point is Mechuka on that axis is as far as an SUV will go. Hence limited to its 6000'. In Arunachal there will be very few places with an altitude of 13,600' and they will not be motorable.

All high places will be Sikkim or northwards. Beyond Sikkim, it will be hard to find a place below 12,000' on the Indo - Tibetan border.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 14:27

i did not want to mention specifically the road to lola pass in this (yar gyap chu) valley. menchuka (or 6-8 miles further on) was a road-head till around 2012, around the same time that the good colonel had made his visit there.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 014_1.html

The actual border with China is at the Lola Pass, some 45 km from Menchuka. The Line of Actual Control (as the border is called) is not disputed here, as it is in other sectors like Longju.


by the end of 2013 the road had made it to about 4-5 miles from the lola pass ridge-line. deploying what are being termed "high-power vehicles" and "high-end SUVs" at 6,000' in a dead-end valley held by red-devils makes no sense. it will make sense to use these "for quick movement in these mountainous areas" only at a high pass like lola (13,600') which has been in news over the past 2 decades for frequent pla transgressions. you may want to circle back with your old friends from mohanbari who are still working in that sector.

in fact, in subansiri and menchuka sectors BRO has broken through right upto, or very close to the border. not sure if you have perused this recent news report about the subansiri sector.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160407/j ... _78728.jsp

After seven years, three deaths and several injuries, a remote village in Arunachal Pradesh near the Chinese border is now closer than ever before.


it is in this (subansiri) sector that the most face-offs/clashes have happened since the late 50s. in fact the opening shots of 1962 were fired here in august 1959 (2 months before the hot-springs incident at kongka la), with at least one indian dead and another taken prisoner. as recently as 2003 an ssb patrol was taken prisoner by the pla in this sector.

again, as i said, you may want to check with your friends.

p.s.: re: sikkim and places above 12,000', this forum is probably not the best place to discuss. the "pissing contest" someone mentions above, began in the gurudongmar area of sikkim (another gurudwara in a stunning location), and resulted in deployment of pajeros in that area in 2011.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 19 May 2016 16:05

^^^ Okay, I read your post and did some fact finding. Actually, I had detailed discussions about these in Oct 2014, sitting not very far from Nahar Lagun, Itanagar.

Col Ajay Shukla's article does not mention any roads beyond Mechuka. (Dtd 31st Mar 2012)

The Telegraph article is of the Subansari valley which is a totally different valley and different road infrastructure. Walking across from Mechuka to Subansari (Taliha) is a nightmare even today.

In the Subansari valley itself, the road is ready upto Tame Chung Chung (TCC) (Also mentioned in the Telegraph itself). We had a short discussion on this in the Indian Roads thread a month back. I had posted on it there.

As far I have heard, from Mechuka a track (slightly more than just a track) has been built but it stops well short of the valley proper both for Yarlong and Labang. Road at Lo La does not show up among people I spoke to. Maybe they are wrong as none of them are near there now.

Please check the google map location and area near Mechuka. The imagery says 2016. Not pasting URL as it is too long.

Wikimapia has this for Lo La pass:
http://wikimapia.org/12932714/Lo-La-pass

I pasted the Wikimapia coordinates and check for directions from Mechuka but not posting the long link as the entire page formatting is getting disturbed. You may try the same.

Mechuka is important node for outposts further up. Almost all supplies, men, etc go through here. Manigong axis is more challenging. Vehicles like the SUV discussed are meant for troop / people movement upto Mechuka I guess and it is required even there as the roads are fairly steep and twisty though the altitude may seem lower.

However, there is a LoLa pass that is motorable but the coordinates are different from the one I found in Wikimapia. Infact, this LoLa appears to be well West of Arunachal.

http://viewfinderpanoramas.org/highestpass.html (A very Interesting blog)
...An alternatve candidate may be Lo La. According to Martin Adserballe, who cycled over it in September 2006, the main pass "is situated at N 29�54'569 E 86�42'427. The pass itself was 5578 meters according to GPS. There were two parallel roads leading up to the roadpass - one constructed with the pass as summit and one going over a small hill before the pass - reaching an altitude of 5593 meters." Martin also claims that it would be possible to drive a car over this pass; it is unlikely that such a claim could be made about Marsimik. Here are some photographs, uploaded with his permission: 1 2 3 4.
...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 16:28

deejay wrote:The Telegraph article is of the Subansari valley which is a totally different valley and different road infrastructure. Walking across from Mechuka to Subansari (Taliha) is a nightmare even today.

i have specifically mentioned subasiri and menchuka as separate sectors in my post above. the colonel's article talks about the gurkha detachment's 1962 trek from menchuka to taliha. the telegraph article was to show that another important valley in western arunachal has been connected all the way till the border.

deejay wrote:In the Subansari valley itself, the road is ready upto Tame Chung Chung (TCC) (Also mentioned in the Telegraph itself). We had a short discussion on this in the Indian Roads thread a month back. I had posted on it there.

in subansiri valley, the road now goes all the way till taksing on the asafila axis. in fact the road from taksing to tcc, and from daporijo to taliha has existed since 2012 at least. that gap has been connected in the last 2-3 years. it is only the maja/migyitun axis that is still bridle-path. tcc is at the confluence of subansiri and tsari chu, and therefore overlooks 2 important axes.

deejay wrote:As far I have heard, from Mechuka a track (slightly more than just a track) has been built but it stops well short of the valley proper both for Yarlong and Labang. Road at Lo La does not show up among people I spoke to. Maybe they are wrong as none of them are near there now.
Please check the google map location and area near Mechuka. The imagery says 2016. Not pasting URL as it is too long.


point google maps to 28.741441, 93.965607. the imagery is from october 2013. that "track" is at least 30' wide.

deejay wrote:Manigong axis is more challenging. Vehicles like the SUV discussed are meant for troop / people movement upto Mechuka I guess and it is required even there as the roads are fairly steep and twisty though the altitude may seem lower.


the road-head at manigong is still ways away from the pass overlooking the valley (dong la).

2 suvs for itbp movement? seriously? it is about the "pissing contest" someone has mentioned above. umreeki boats in pangong tso, pajeros in north sikkim. there is a pattern here.

deejay wrote:Wikimapia has this for Lo La pass:
http://wikimapia.org/12932714/Lo-La-pass
However, there is a LoLa pass that is motorable but the coordinates are different from the one I found in Wikimapia. Infact, this LoLa appears to be well West of Arunachal.

the lola i mention is very much the one that the colonel refers to in his article and is due n-w of menchuka.
Last edited by malushahi on 19 May 2016 17:12, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 16:56

^^^

i would have preferred uploading a cut-out from a 1954 topo map of the menchuka/lo la area, but too much hassle involved in uploading to external site etc.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 19 May 2016 17:26

malushahi wrote:^^^

i would have preferred uploading a cut-out from a 1954 topo map of the menchuka/lo la area, but too much hassle involved in uploading to external site etc.


IMO, the coordinates for the trail/road given by you and what appears like a pass (Lola pass) are in different valleys.

Perusal of GE topography shows that pass can exist at two locations. And one of them is consistent with coordinates given by deejay. In fact, GE shows a unpaved road on Chinese side coming up along a side valley to a location whose coordinates were shared by deejay.

Another unpaved road comes from Chinese side to second possible pass in the region.

But both are in valleys different from the coordinates given by for the trail/road. This trail/road leads into a dead-end with very steep ridges on all the sides.

Pass 1: 28.745651, 93.856030 (this seems like Lola pass. Pretty easy from looks of it. But then, easy to comment from office :P )
Pass 2: 28.741587, 93.915122

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 17:38

^^^

in fact there are 3 pla road-heads in that area. the 3rd is at 28.7944325,93.8957305. all three are located about 3 miles from the next one as the crow flies. the wikimapia link given above for lo la is exactly where the 3rd road-head is, and is different from the location provided by you. location of the "traditional" pass is not the point here, though a topo map would summarily dispel all doubts we are having, first thing in the morning.

check the "track" co-ordinates given by me earlier against this 3rd road-head (let me call it wiki lo-la), and infer the likely bearing of this indian "track". that is reason why i was careful to label this as "lo la ridge-line" in my original post.

re: road to the "your" lo la, a road to here is in the works as we speak. you can verify its location vis-a-vis "your" pass from imagery.

there are numerous examples in the himalayas of the latter party to build a road/track to a pass choosing to have their road-head at a location slightly removed from the traditional pass (i am guessing for maneuvering purposes). in this case, an indian road to the wiki lo-la not only threatens pla border guards at samga sampo, but also threatens to choke off pla access to the other 2 road-heads/valleys (including the one to "your" lol-la). to that extent BRO has completed the more "strategic" axis first.

my original point remains - a grand total of 2 "high-power vehicles"/"high-end SUVs" has been shipped to the menchuka area not for transport etc, but for posturing at the ridge-line. a very compelling explanation for it is that the "track" above is through all the way to the border.

rohitvats wrote:But both are in valleys different from the coordinates given by for the trail/road. This trail/road leads into a dead-end with very steep ridges on all the sides.

not sure where you are getting that from. if anything the 3 valleys the chinese roads pass fit that description. check out the beginning of the road for #2. i count 24-25 cramped switch-backs. one would wonder what describes "dead-end with very steep ridges on all the sides" if this does not. otoh, the indian "trail" opens into a bowl with unlimited opportunities for alignment.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 19 May 2016 21:45

^^^I would recheck on classifications of the map from that area before posting. Map of that area was classified earlier (At least all Million maps we used).

TCC- Taksing track / road existed before hand. The road linking to TCC has been completed, as per the reports recently.

If a motorable road to LoLa has been cut then I bow my head in respect to all the engineers and people who have done it. Hats off guys.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 21:57

i hope declassified 1:250,000 topo maps from U.S. Army Map Service, 1955 version (british survey maps from the area, iow) will meet your standards. in any event, as i have said above, i have no argument with the wikimapia lo-la location provided by you.

TCC- Taksing track / road existed before hand. The road linking to TCC has been completed, as per the reports recently.

exactly what i have said above.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 19 May 2016 22:10

^^^
Yes, I agree, TCC- Taksing road is exactly what you said it was.

Also, if the tropo maps are not from Indian govt agencies, please use them. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 22:45

found a travelog about a 2012 visit to mechuka and beyond.

http://www.xploreunxplored.com/arunacha ... continued/

We proceeded further towards Yarlung and on the way found the Gurudwara in right
<snip>
The road condition was deteriorating fast and the valley was narrowing down and we started climbing again.
<snip>
We reached till the point civilians are allowed at Yarlung. There are two posts side by side, first one is of Indian Army and next one is of ITBP, just a km apart and this is the last permanent camp of army before the McMahan Line. Lola Pass, the ancient trade route to Tibet. As I enquired it was still 25/30km from Yarlung and road connectivity is being built. We could see the Chinese controlled peaks/ ridges from there and army still had to patrol by 2 days of walking to the LAC.
<snip>
The Driving Distances for the day:

022 – Mechuka IB
036 – Gurdwara
047 – Yarlung Army Camp
072 – Mechuka IB

so, in 2012 a civilian could drive 25 kms further on from menchuka towards lo-la (till yarlung).

again, take it fwiw as it is not from Indian govt agencies. who knows, the guy maybe pulling this out of his nether parts.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 19 May 2016 22:55

malushahi wrote:found a travelog about a 2012 visit to mechuka and beyond.

http://www.xploreunxplored.com/arunacha ... continued/

We proceeded further towards Yarlung and on the way found the Gurudwara in right
<snip>
The road condition was deteriorating fast and the valley was narrowing down and we started climbing again.
<snip>
We reached till the point civilians are allowed at Yarlung. There are two posts side by side, first one is of Indian Army and next one is of ITBP, just a km apart and this is the last permanent camp of army before the McMahan Line. Lola Pass, the ancient trade route to Tibet. As I enquired it was still 25/30km from Yarlung and road connectivity is being built. We could see the Chinese controlled peaks/ ridges from there and army still had to patrol by 2 days of walking to the LAC.
<snip>
The Driving Distances for the day:

022 – Mechuka IB
036 – Gurdwara
047 – Yarlung Army Camp
072 – Mechuka IB

so, in 2012 a civilian could drive 25 kms further on from menchuka towards lo-la (till yarlung).

again, take it fwiw. who knows, the guy maybe pulling this out of his nether parts.


Even earlier. The bowl of Mechuka is much larger (the town is a small thing). The ALG is at the eartern mouth of the bowl. One could travel by road upto Yarlong mouth even in the '90s. You can clearly see this in the google earth images. Ofcourse, then the road would begin from Mechuka :) . Back then the tree line was much lower too. All the barren area near Mechuka that google earth shows is mostly illegal deforestation.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby malushahi » 19 May 2016 23:02

i was responding to what you said earlier:

deejay wrote:As far I have heard, from Mechuka a track (slightly more than just a track) has been built but it stops well short of the valley proper both for Yarlong and Labang. Road at Lo La does not show up among people I spoke to.


so the road to lo-la was very much being worked on back in 2012, and the "fauji" road existed till well beyond yarlung. as i said earlier, the road-head was at least 6-8 miles further on from menchuka in 2012 or thereabouts. turns out it was at least 25kms from menchuka ib.

so, it looks very much in the realm of possible that the long-awaited road to lo-la is finally done - and i am guessing, that is where itbp will drive their shiny new toys.


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