Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby navneeet » 26 Aug 2017 16:16



This is an old report. The matter was raised in Rajya Sabha :-

1477 Shri Rajeev Chandrasekhar
Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to satate :-
(a) whether Government in its letter No.A/24577/CAO/CP Cell dated 18 October, 2016 has disturbed the rank equations between Armed Forces Officers and Civil Services Officers;

(b) if so, whether Government will consider correcting discrepancies that have arisen as a result of this disturbance of rank equations; and

(c) if so, the details thereof, if not, the reasons therefor?

ANSWER

MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
DR. SUBHASH BHAMRE


(a) The Government has only reiterated the existing functional equivalence being followed at Service Headquarters for matters of assigning duties and responsibilities with respect to Armed Forces Headquarters Civil Service (AFHQ CS) officers posted at Service Headquarters.

(b) & (c): Do not arise.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 09:05

Long Range Surface to Air Missile handed over to Indian Army
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/630 ... ssile.html

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Aug 2017 11:07

^^ LRSAM and army? Clicked link to realise incorrect headline.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ashthor » 30 Aug 2017 16:01

Modi Government Approves First Phase Of Reforms In Army

http://www.republicworld.com/s/6016/def ... ndian-army

In consultation with the Army, the Arun Jaitley-led ministry has decided to act on the recommendations of the Shekatkar Committee which was mandated to suggest measures for 'enhancing the combat capability and rebalancing the defence expenditure of the Armed forces'. The aim, in this case, was to increase the "teeth to tail" ratio.

As per documents accessed by Republic TV, a total of 99 recommendations had been made, of which 65 have been approved for implementation by December 31, 2019.


More in the link

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 31 Aug 2017 09:15

Awesome

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 02 Sep 2017 05:40

Army's BSS - fielding initially planned by 2017 could take another decade
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... er-decade/

By Lt Gen Prakash Katoch

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2017 04:31

http://wap.business-standard.com/articl ... 266_1.html

Reforms to add 57k soldiers to combat role.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 05 Sep 2017 07:00

ramana wrote:http://wap.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/defence-ministry-slashes-army-flab-57-000-soldiers-to-move-to-combat-roles-117083001266_1.html

Reforms to add 57k soldiers to combat role.


Image

Image in the above mentioned article.
Just nitpicking but its important to me.
This is a pakistani soldier next to a Pakistani Army Mil-17.

Indian Army does not operate Mil-17.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 05 Sep 2017 23:08

The secret weapon that helps Indian Army nab terrorists
http://tech.economictimes.indiatimes.co ... s/60363905

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gaur » 07 Sep 2017 17:45

Indian Army will breach LoC and strike whenever needed: Lt Gen D Anbu

Lt General Devraj Anbu, who heads the Northern Command, on Thursday said that the Indian Army will breach the Line of Control and launch strike against enemies whenever the need arises in future.

http://zeenews.india.com/india/indian-army-will-breach-loc-and-strike-whenever-needed-lt-gen-d-anbu-2040230.html

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gaur » 09 Sep 2017 16:33

Govt approves Army's cadre review policy

The government has approved a long-awaited cadre review policy for Junior Commissioned Officers and other rank-holders in the Army, a step which will offer higher career progression to nearly 1.45 lakh personnel of the force, a senior Army official said today.

Adjutant General of the Army Lieutenant General Ashwani Kumar said the upgradation would take place over a span of five years.

"The third cadre review has been approved by the government on September 1. This is for upgradation of JCOs and Other Ranks," he said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2017 20:54

Salute Lieutenant Swati! Anti-Terror Hero’s Widow Joins Army Today
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09 ... today.html

‘While Col. Mahadik was being airlifted to Srinagar, I received a call from his wife. She had already heard,’ remembers Maj. Pravin, then Adjutant at 41 Rashtriya Rifles headquarters. ‘Her question still haunts me. All she asked was ‘Zinda rahenge ya nahi rahenge? Bas itna bata do’ (Will he live or not? Just tell me that).’ Maj. Pravin did not know what to say. He knew that she knew the truth. But he still hoped that the doctors at 92 Base Hospital, often magicians in their abilities, could bring Col. Mahadik back.

‘She called again a short while later. This time, she asked me a question that haunts me even more,’ remembers Maj. Pravin. ‘She asked how many rounds had hit her husband. I mustered my strength to inform her that he had taken 7 bullets and that he was unlikely to survive. She said nothing further and hung up the phone.’

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gaur » 13 Sep 2017 10:45

Got to love the creativity here! :lol:

Terrorists in Kashmir, beware! Indian Army will take you down with its 'SAMOSA' missile

For months now, anti-India graffiti painted on walls has become a common sight in the Kashmir Valley.

From abusing the Indian government, to mocking the Indian Armed Forces, to glorifying terrorists, these graffiti have not just been used as a propaganda tool but also a means to demean India's armed forces.

Obliterating such offensive graffiti had been Indian Army's conventional response to the menace till now. Not anymore. A few young Indian Army officers have now decided to take the battle right up to these walls—one graffiti at a time.

The name of Zakir Musa—a Hizbul Mujahideen terrorist recently believed to be named by the Al- Qaeda as its India chief—was found painted on walls after walls in Budgam district. It was then a young Rashtriya Rifles' Company Commander decided he needed to respond: spray can for spray can and that too, innovatively.

So the graffiti which originally said 'MUSA BHAI' in capital letters was modified by adding two new alphabets and tampering with an existing one. A few sprays later, the graffiti screaming MUSA BHAI became an even more screaming SAMOSA BHAI.

As Budgam woke up the next morning, the sense of amusement on the streets was unmistakeable. Many were intrigued by who this SAMOSA BHAI was. And the fun continued for a few days.

“We found that not a single wall had been spared. Zakir Musa's name had been painted all over the place. At first, we thought of obliterating these graffiti like we normally do. Then we had this idea and decided to react differently,” said an army official in Kashmir, requesting anonymity.

“It was an interesting experiment, one that also lifted the mood of our men,” the army official said. Senior Army officials acknowledge that the anti-India messages painted on walls in Kashmir can at times make soldiers feel disheartened and demeaned. “This kind of a response surely helps in lifting the spirits of our men,” the official added.

Sources said there was a growing appreciation within the Army establishment for officers and leaders who were trying to come up with out-of-box solutions to the situations they face on a daily basis in the conflict zone in Kashmir.

“You will keep hearing of more such innovations in days to come,” the officer from Kashmir said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby morem » 13 Sep 2017 10:57

Perspectives from Subedar Saab
I travelled from Akola to Nagpur ( In maharashtra) in a train , one of my companions was a Subedaar Saab from Bombay Sappers. Had a nice 3 hour long discussion with him. Highlights from the conversation, TIFWIW :
Posted in Sukna 33 Corps , said about 57 K troops ready to take on China
Also said war is not going to happen as there is too much damage to both sides
Was happy with salary , about 60K in hand. Also said if one does not have any bad habits , salary is more than enough to live happily. When asked about children's education - said that there is Defence quota in all colleges and there are colleges only for army dependents.
Mentioned that Army gave him 4 acres of land near his village - he cannot sell it , but can exchange it. Needed some liaison with Taluka office and state govt
Was happy about the rations provided by Army for OR and JCO/NCO - said it was really good and no worries on that front. Did also say that food in army mess was better than the restaurants in Akola ( Akola is a district place - about 700K population)
Did say that he was not happy with BJP as 6th pay commission gave more benefits than 7th pay commission
Was happy with the OROP decision
Mentioned that soldiers / JCO can join Police / Paramilitary forces without loss of seniority till the age of 45 :O and also get the army pension
Also said that INSAS is okay rifle , AK is better as we can fire till the barrel glows red hot

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 15 Sep 2017 01:50

CleanLife helps jawans keep their daily hygiene
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 519860.cms

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 15 Sep 2017 04:34

morem, Thanks for the synopsis.

Good conversation.
I wish we know who all were the people who pushed for the INSAS rifle to replace the Ishapore now that we are going back to an updated and upgraded rifle.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Karthik S » 15 Sep 2017 09:47

Image

As nana patekar said, there can't be any bigger heroes than our soldiers.
PC: Livefist.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 16 Sep 2017 14:32

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Negi,

The balance argument again - balance the armed forces view and bureaucracy. It's the same argument that Barkha Dutt and our DDM use balance India and Pakistan view. BULLSHIT. Don't balance anything. Just go for the jugular and go for the truth.

Truth is that bureaucracy has all the financial powers an issue I have posted several times on. So has DJ who have an example of how his helicopter unit can't get spares if they are out of the normal process. truth is that armed forces standing has been consistently reduced vis a vis the bureaucracy. Pay is lower, risk is much higher , living conditions and family quarters are far far far worse , you can't get anything done in local government if you are a fauji but if you ate an IAS officer or IPS or IT you can. As a nation we are saying we don't value the soldier. What does that lead to - bad quality of intake. I'm sorry but that's a fact. I have several friends and course mates who ha e just finished command as CO and say you are very lucky you left very early. These days all we pray for in a unit is just 1 good officer. And you see the results - the fabric is being eroded day by day.

The problem is simple. Pay peanuts get monkeys. Nation cannot be defended in 1.7 pct of GDP. Period.

Even UK has a 90 k army for a population of 60 million. By that ratio we should have a 1.8 million army. But we don't. And our army is fully employed in CI CT ops in the valley they northeast . Two hot borders and all kinds of earth quakes and tsunami relief and anytime civil breaks down. It's just not feasable. We need to spend atleast 3.5- 4 pct of GDP if we are to have any chance of sensible national security.

To end two recent quotes :

1. ex Def Secy - armed forces are our servants, fit to only stand as guards. We kick them and they ask how hard

2. JT Secy MOD - even army chief stands with his hands tied in front of me. If my pen doesn't move nothing moves. The pen is truly nightier than the sword.

jai hind. Mera Bharat Mahan


This is not surprising. But the services have themselves to blame to a small extent. They have not been able to build relationships with politcians and influence them. Senior officers have not taken steps like resigning in protest enmass. In India the people who shout the most or have the most influence get heard. I have recently started studying our epics and traditional literature and even Arthsashtra. The warrior is strongly vernerated in culture and by the people and the senapati is an important part of the king's policy making. But that seems to have changed post independence. I wonder if we have undergone a fundamental transformation during independence struggle and post independence. What I see today is not reflected in most of our history and culture.

Are we becoming more westernized ? But western democracies give a lot of importance to armed forces so we are not that. Have we again succeeded in imbibing the worst of both worlds like we did when we adopted Fabian socialism ?
Last edited by Vidur on 16 Sep 2017 16:20, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 16 Sep 2017 14:34

Did you read my post on the systematic issues I had posted on another thread. Would very much welcome yours and TSarkar's views on that.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 16 Sep 2017 15:15

Akshay Kapoor wrote:

The problem is simple. Pay peanuts get monkeys. Nation cannot be defended in 1.7 pct of GDP. Period.

Even UK has a 90 k army for a population of 60 million. By that ratio we should have a 1.8 million army. But we don't. And our army is fully employed in CI CT ops in the valley they northeast . Two hot borders and all kinds of earth quakes and tsunami relief and anytime civil breaks down. It's just not feasable. We need to spend atleast 3.5- 4 pct of GDP if we are to have any chance of sensible national security.




I agree, we need to spend 3.25 - 3.5% of GDP on defence.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vina » 16 Sep 2017 15:44

Vidur wrote:This is not surprising. But the services have themselves to blame to some extent. They have not been able to build relationships with politcians and influence them. Senior officers have not taken steps like resigning in protest enmass. ?


Nonsense. The forces still have a sense of honour and dignity. The Baboons and the IAS whor*d themselves out long ago ,both at the state level and central level and are criminally complicit in every corrupt enterprise the politico undertakes.

Why even one of the former Chief Of All Baboons - The First Baboon (also known as Cabinet Secretary) - T.N Seshan called his fellow Baboons as "Call Girls" .

First get a bunch of friggin Baboons to resign en-masse (just half a dozen would do) in protest against corruption and skullduggery and that they can no longer countenance it, then come and talk about "Senior Officers" resigning.

Well, Adm Joshi fell on his sword and resigned after the Navy accidents. Which Baboon has resigned anywhere and WHEN ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Kashi » 16 Sep 2017 16:00

vina wrote:Nonsense. The forces still have a sense of honour and dignity.


Yet not bereft of rotten apples.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 16 Sep 2017 16:20

vina wrote:
Vidur wrote:This is not surprising. But the services have themselves to blame to some extent. They have not been able to build relationships with politcians and influence them. Senior officers have not taken steps like resigning in protest enmass. ?


Nonsense. The forces still have a sense of honour and dignity. The Baboons and the IAS whor*d themselves out long ago ,both at the state level and central level and are criminally complicit in every corrupt enterprise the politico undertakes.

Why even one of the former Chief Of All Baboons - The First Baboon (also known as Cabinet Secretary) - T.N Seshan called his fellow Baboons as "Call Girls" .

First get a bunch of friggin Baboons to resign en-masse (just half a dozen would do) in protest against corruption and skullduggery and that they can no longer countenance it, then come and talk about "Senior Officers" resigning.

Well, Adm Joshi fell on his sword and resigned after the Navy accidents. Which Baboon has resigned anywhere and WHEN ?


You misunderstood me. Enmasse resignation might be a way to be heard. I am not defending the bureaucracy - they make such statements (as Akshay heard) because frankly it is the reality to a good extent.

Adm Joshi resigned and his Vice took over. If he had also resigned and all the next in line then the question would have been asked - 'why doesn't the service chief have the authority to deliver critcial equipment for his submarines'. Adm Joshi perhaps felt his resignation would trigger that question but it did not. It was accepted instantaneously and so the opposite happened and the govt got an easy way out.

Don't expect the government to wake up and change spontaneously.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 16 Sep 2017 21:14

En Masse resignation for a single cause is mutiny which is a criminal offense under Armed Forces law (Army Act?) Punishable by death.

Here en masse is anything more than one.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby negi » 16 Sep 2017 21:56

^ True , actually Adm Joshi and his next in command did not resign together per se at least latter was forced to resign . Latter was one of the finest naval aviators in service had Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha not retired he would have been the next in line to become the chief of the IN instead of Adm Robin K Dhowan.


Being in forces is akin to being between rock and a hard place , if you truly think about nation's interest in a holistic manner one would find oneself at loggerheads with the system however when in uniform one is not 'supposed' to question the legislative that 'dharma' will come in the way of 'righteousness' , babus are not bound by such a strong sense of 'dharma' they can fail and even make mistakes and still go on to serve until their last teeth fall out ; it's unfair but remember that is what happens when you copy paste entire ICS and replace C with A for a system. It is not as if the military is free from ills however there is one key aspect in which I personally think the forces are better than all other government establishments i.e. the system of carrot and stick works like clockwork and every act of omission gets punished with extreme prejudice that keeps the uniform spotless and gives it that luster which rest of the services be it the IAS , IPS or even the para military have been yearning for.

The common refrain about degradation of forces in terms of their position in the overall system has merit , however what should concern forces even more is their inability to 'influence' things in their favor. The issue is forces specially the officers in the military during the British times were English and they obviously had a great weight and say in how things used to be run for obvious reasons .

Post independence everything has changed ; first imagine this what work did the IAS in 1950s, 60s or even the 70s have ? Running the licence raj ? I know I am simplifying but the monetary significance of their work was very very small. However things are different today forget about a DC, a sarpanch who is probably lowest in the hierarchy has a say in matters like where in the village the road will pass or where a school can be built . While duties of a DC might not have changed due to the sheer growth in our economy the impact which his decisions make have increased more than ten fold , there are projects worth hundreds of crores that are at mercy of his/her signature and if even 60% of them have taken this to their heads they stand to misuse this power and influence the equations of power at the top with much more ease as against a 3 star ranking officer in the IA. There is no better tool than bean counting when trying to influence decision making and that is an area where forces will always come second to the IAS.

People should understand that only nations where the military has immense power and say in matters of running a country are either military regimes like TSP , NoKo or those whose economic interests are best served by military muscle backing it for example the USA . Most of our 3 star generals after retiring are happy taking up some advisory position nothing wrong with it but that is also the reason why the forces have no representation in matters of decision making , in order to have a say in decision making the critical mass of those who enter politics , administration and even the private-public enterprises that make weapons has to increase to a point where keeping interests of the forces is second nature (this is the case in the USA).

Look at folks like Adm Ramdas , Adm Vishnu Bhagwat and for that matter even Cmde Uday Bhaskar they all might be writing good strategy and might be getting invited to some chi chi circles for giving a talk but they will never be in a position to make a real impact when it comes to securing interest of the forces ,now compare them to Capt. Amrinder Singh , Lt Gen Khanduri or even Gen V K Singh it is these guys who stand to make a much higher impact or influence on legislative when it comes to securing interests of the forces , now one cannot comment about them at individual level however the point which I am trying to make is if enough folks from forces enter the arena and hopefully the critical mass of right kind is high enough then they can influence the rules of the game to restore parity between the forces and the IAS .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 17 Sep 2017 01:38

deejay wrote:En Masse resignation for a single cause is mutiny which is a criminal offense under Armed Forces law (Army Act?) Punishable by death.

Here en masse is anything more than one.

There is a speech by field Marshall Sam where he mentions this.

Regarding Babu's, instead of resigning services should join politics enmasse.

The babu who used to show disdain to chiefs would start kis**ing a** once they become minister.

Col Rathore, imagine the disdain a babu would have shown a colonel when he comes down to south block.

The same babu will open the door of his car, now that he is a minister.

Even better is capt arminder Singh. Punjab chief minister

I say join politics. More politician from service back, what will Babu's do?.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 17 Sep 2017 06:51

Vidur wrote:Are we becoming more westernized ? But western democracies give a lot of importance to armed forces so we are not that. Have we again succeeded in imbibing the worst of both worlds like we did when we adopted Fabian socialism ?

This is only half the story.

We are certainly "becoming westernized" but western tendencies are not monolithic. Conservative western thoughts admire the forces and their contribution to the nation. It is the leftists and pinko liberals of the west who denigrate the armed forces and see them as a threat to politics, threat to free sex. threat to free speech, threat to homosexuality, threat to women's freedom etc.

Ever since Nehru and the Lutyens legacy he left behind we have copied the left-liberal west and have acted as if the armed forces are an unnecessary burden. So yes we are becoming "westernized" but we are becoming westernized in a "cargo-cult" monkey-see-monkey-do sense where we copy the liberals and ignore the role of armed might in creating a nation in the first place.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 17 Sep 2017 11:46

agreed. They also preserve their armed forces heritage and market it very well. I was in the UK for an official visit once during the 'remembrance day' and saw 'poppies' being worn by virtually everybody, even taxis were wearing them. There was also a moment of silence at 11 AM I think and a big parade where all political leaders across the spectrum laid wreaths at the national war memorial.

I once asked my superiors why do we never have military officers leading delegations when most almost all foreign delegations (that come to India or when we visit to discuss defence matters) either have military leading or in very prominent positions. They thought I had gone mad. Were close to refering me for psycriatric help.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby JayS » 17 Sep 2017 23:20

nam wrote:
I say join politics. More politician from service back, what will Babu's do?.


Bingo. Sum total of 32 US presidents were from AFs background. And all the defense programs are run by the AFs from the highest levels. We need similar participation from good AF folks in active politics and administration.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 18 Sep 2017 02:22

There is no point writing articles or commenting on how babus disrespect the forces. A normal Indian civilian and a person from service are in the same boat when it comes to respect from the babus. We are no one for them. We civilians are treated must worse than a person in uniform by the babus.

Just like civilians overlord the babus by being politicians, services need to get in to politics. Civilians can become good politicians but a major drawback is the lack of professional background compared to a services person.

Babus recognise the power of being part of a political party.

The most successful example of this.... ex PM Manmohan Singh.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 19 Sep 2017 03:29

Vidur wrote:agreed. They also preserve their armed forces heritage and market it very well. I was in the UK for an official visit once during the 'remembrance day' and saw 'poppies' being worn by virtually everybody, even taxis were wearing them. There was also a moment of silence at 11 AM I think and a big parade where all political leaders across the spectrum laid wreaths at the national war memorial.

I once asked my superiors why do we never have military officers leading delegations when most almost all foreign delegations (that come to India or when we visit to discuss defence matters) either have military leading or in very prominent positions. They thought I had gone mad. Were close to refering me for psycriatric help.


Talk to the old timers or retires about Curzon-Kitchener spat.

It still afflicts the civil services.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 19 Sep 2017 23:10

Prime Minister's Office wants Indian Army to pick up garbage: Where's your outrage now?
The Prime Minister's Office (PMO) has passed directions to the defence ministry to task the Army with clearing up the litter deposited over the years at tourist spots in high-altitude areas. In the last two years, the Army has laid mats for the Yoga Day celebrations - a responsibility of state governments - and also constructed two pontoon bridges along the Yamuna floodplains in Delhi for Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's controversial mega event World Culture Festival.

The armed forces of the nation have a role and task. Their task is national security. They are trained to kill anti-nationals or the enemy, while in the bargain they should be willing to sacrifice their lives. They are neither trained or tasked to clear the litter dumped by careless visitors who the state has failed to brief. They are trained to lay bridges in war-like situations, not for mega showcase events. They are trained to handle situations beyond the control of local security forces, not act as police outside the dera. They are trained to assist the state in handling national calamities, not laying mats - that any other establishment or organisation can do.

While the Army should definitely pick up after itself, it should not be picking up after everyone else. Time for this will perforce come from or op commitments, training or rest . Reflects poorly on the political leadership and even more so on the top leadership of the Army for not pushing back. Pathetic.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sohamn » 19 Sep 2017 23:19

Who else has the capability to pick up junk from high altitude areas? Lets us say, climbers, have junked kanchenjunga (27k ft) or even nathula pass (15k ft) , then can we send our municipal workers in that altitude to clean up the mess. We don't have civilians trained to work in high altitude areas. The only other organization that may have the capability is BRO.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 19 Sep 2017 23:30

sohamn wrote:Who else has the capability to pick up junk from high altitude areas? Lets us say, climbers, have junked kanchenjunga (27k ft) or even nathula pass (15k ft) , then can we send our municipal workers in that altitude to clean up the mess. We don't have civilians trained to work in high altitude areas. The only other organization that may have the capability is BRO.
So create an organization to clean up, use civilian authorities to enforce tourist codes. Whatever. They want the army to clean up after tourists on a sustained basis. Just because the civil administration can't do their jobs is not a reason to create a new tasking that is orthogonal to the purpose of a professional organization. What will happen is that when we find ourselves at war, we'll have an army that excels at disaster response and trash cleaning and has forgotten how to fight a war.

Actually the ITBP also operates there. I can only imagine that they have better leadership and told the PMO to F off. Good for them.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby jamwal » 19 Sep 2017 23:40

Moron tourists, most of them Indians already have trashed countless pristine places like Pangong lake in Laddakh so much that army used dozens of trucks to remove tonnes of trash

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sohamn » 20 Sep 2017 05:09

^^ Fine people so heavily that clean up is not required in the first place.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Bishwa » 26 Sep 2017 07:38

https://defenceaviationpost.com/army-ch ... s-akhnoor/

This is interesting.

This article says the army has converted the 10th Inf Div in Akhnoor to a RAPID division. That would be under XVI Corps.

Previous RAPIDS have been under X Corps (2), II Corps (1) and XXI Corps (1)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 26 Sep 2017 14:33

SWEEPING THE ARMED FORCES AWAY

Tuesday, 26 September 2017 | Deepak Sinha | in Oped

The Prime Minister must be complimented for his ‘Swachh Bharat' programme. But surely, there can be nothing more thoughtless than an attempt to use the military as one vast force of safai karamcharis. To take advantage of a disciplined force is foolish and inherently dangerous

We are unfortunate to belong to a nation where most politicians, of all hues, lack personal experience of having served in the military, and are, therefore, challenged when it comes to military matters. It is not just their ignorance of how our Armed Forces are organised or function, but also their utter incomprehension of its cultural ethos and traditions that are on constant display. This, more often than not, ensures that their treatment and employment of the military verges on the ludicrous. This is not a new phenomenon but has been our fate for 100 years. It is no wonder that a few hundred British, mainly clerks and traders, organised and trained up a relatively small bunch of locals to take on the might of the Mughal empire and other assorted rajas and presided over our collective destinies for 200 years.

Thus, it comes as no surprise that a novice Defence Minister, whose political career has been shaped by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and hinges on his goodwill, jumps to do his bidding as he attempts to get another of his fanciful ideas implemented. Don’t get me wrong; the ‘Swachh Bharat’ project has been a much-needed initiative, for which Modi must be complimented. But surely, there can be nothing more thoughtless than an attempt to use the military as one vast force of safai karamcharis. That truly verges on the demented, to say the least. It’s not as if the Army does not clean its own areas using troops. Not only does it do so but ensures that its own areas are spankingly clean when compared to surrounding areas administered by various municipal bodies.

The use of the military for developmental activities is one thing, and that has been tried earlier by some other countries as well, including China, though not followed through on a regular basis, given its adverse impact on their operational proficiency and capabilities. But to take advantage of a disciplined force, that is trained to follow orders at whatever cost for such a mundane task, which is the responsibility of a host of Government agencies, employed and paid for this very purpose, just because they do a shoddy job and cannot be held accountable, is foolish and inherently dangerous. The military is motivated to make sacrifices primarily as a matter of honour, for defending one’s own or the units’ izzat, and not cleaning somebody else’s muck especially, of uncaring and uncouth citizens.

The local Government, which gains from the inflow of tourists, should take the required steps to keep those areas clean, if it wants more tourists to add to its kitty. There is also ambiguity as to its constitutionality of such orders as it seems extremely unlikely that the Prime Minister can order other Government servants, say school teachers or bureaucrats, to carry out such tasks without them refusing or resorting to protests.

Despite attempts by the military establishment to show this issue in positive light, there is little doubt that it was utterly foolish and short-sighted of the Army hierarchy to have so readily acquiesced to such an incongruous order and proceeded to implement it as if they were conducting another ‘surgical strike’ into Pakistan. ‘Cutting grass’, as such tasks are referred to in the Army, is an extremely emotive issue and the leadership seems to have acted without thinking things through.

Just suppose a soldier was to refuse to carry out such an order. How would the hierarchy respond? Obviously, to protect its own credibility, it would be forced to act against the individual, which would obviously only lead to more heartburn and anguish within the rank and file. At the end of it, either there would be further cases of indiscipline, or what is more likely, just mere tokenism.

After all, how does the leadership measure success in such matters? Whichever way it goes, the hierarchy has done itself no favours and will find its credibility and authority questioned whatever the tasks may be.

When dealing with such ignoramuses, it was the responsibility and duty of the military hierarchy to explain to the political leadership the ramifications of their ill-conceived directions and, if necessary, even refuse to let the military be used in such a manner. If, on the other hand, it was convinced that the idea had merit; and it would not adversely impact both operational and training activities and morale of the units assigned, then it was incumbent on them to have led the initiative from the front. The chief and other top brass should have been there with broom in hand to show solidarity to their troops. That is the essence of what leadership demands. However, as I suspect, it is unlikely that they would ever lead such an initiative from the front as they would find it embarrassing.

Let me add that, there is nothing demeaning or embarrassing in picking up a broom to keep our environment spick and span. That is our bounden duty as citizens and there would be no dearth of volunteers for such a task, even among the military, if that was asked for. To order them to clean others latrines just because one can reek of arrogance is an absolute no-no. One can only wonder as to why two former soldiers in the Cabinet did not think to advise the Prime Minister of how his directions would play out. Sadly, they seem to have forgotten soldiering and become adept politicians, no doubt good for their careers but is hardly likely to win them friends within the services community.

(The writer is a military veteran and consultant with the Observer Research Foundation)

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 29 Sep 2017 11:54

Don't agree with everything that Sawhney says but this destructive mindset of primacy is what has buggered the Indian Armed Forces and this COArmyS has once again played right into the sly hands of the baboo(n)s as did some other service chiefs earlier.

Such a blasphemous and outmoded view in 2017??

[Edited]
what was the need for such an incendiary statement?? who engineered it and why was it articulated now??



TIME FOR THE ARMY TO FACE REALITY

Thursday, 28 September 2017 | Pravin Sawhney | in Oped

Time for the Army to face reality

The Indian military, especially the Army, needs to change its mindset on warfare. If done, Pakistan will feel compelled to control its proxy war into India; and China will become careful in its intrusions

Chief of Army Staff General Bipin Rawat’s recent call for the Army’s supremacy as compared with the Air Force and the Navy for winning war is worrisome because it undermines modern war dynamics. Moreover, this will make bringing about military reforms, essential for winning the next war, difficult.

According to him, “Wars will be fought on land, and, therefore, the primacy of the Army must be maintained. The other services, the Navy and the Air Force, will play a very major role in support of the Army which will be operating on the ground because no matter what happens, we may be dominating the area or the air, but finally war will be won when we ensure territorial integrity of the nation. And, therefore, the supremacy and primacy of the Army in a joint services environment becomes that much more relevant and important.”

Talking of ‘Army’s supremacy and primacy in a joint services environment’ in today’s wars is akin to the French fighting the Second World War with the First World War tactics. The French, who had built the Maginot Line (defensive fortifications) in the 1930s believed that they could stop Hitler’s Army’s invasion. Unaware of the doctrine of fast mobility (blitzkrieg) which had been perfected by the German Panzer divisions, who managed to move their tanks through the Ardennes forest by passing the Maginot Line, the French lost the war even before it was joined. The lesson from this episode is that warfighting doctrines must keep pace with technology.


Today, technology has changed the complexion of warfare vertically and horizontally. Instead of the earlier three warfighting mediums, namely land, air and sea, three new ones have been added. These are cyber, space and electromagnetic mediums. Moreover, capabilities exist for long-range targeting with accuracy by precision guided munitions, beyond visual range missiles, surface-to-surface cruise missiles, unmanned combat air vehicles, to be used in real time by networking with help from space-based assets. Amongst the defence services’, the Air Force — given its reach and flexibility — is the best equipped to optimally utilise these technologies, while the Army is least suited to exploit them fully.

Given this, the primacy for land-warfare should go to the Air Force, so that it is able to shape the battlefields for the Army in a reasonable timeframe. Without this, the Air Force and the Army would end up fighting their own wars with sub-optimal results. Instead of separate service’s doctrine — as is the case now where the Army and the Air Force follow their own doctrines — the need is for a single doctrine for combined services warfighting. In addition to this, the Army and the Air Force should hone their core competencies through intra-services (within the service) training. This is why comprehensive military reforms are needed to win the next war.

General Rawat’s another contention that “war will be won when we ensure territorial integrity of the nation” is questionable. Winning war (with offensive capabilities) and maintaining territorial integrity (with defensive capabilities) are two different issues. While territorial integrity involves maintaining the status quo, winning war suggests a change in status quo in some fashion, be in the form of territory, prisoner of wars, attrition of opponent’s warfighting machinery, or compelling the opponent to negotiate on one’s terms.

Thus, while the Army has the primacy in upholding territorial integrity, this does not automatically win war. For example, the Indian Army maintains a robust defensive management posture on the Line of Control to ensure that the Pakistan Army does not alter it to tactical advantage. But this has not deterred the Pakistan Army from continuing with its proxy war, because it believes that the Indian military cannot defeat it in war.

Similarly, since the Indian Army lacks a comparable robust defensive management posture on the Line of Actual Control, China’s defence forces continue with regular intrusions on the military line. For this reason, the Army, since 2007, has raised two divisions (each with 12,000 soldiers) and is raising the 17 Mountain corps, primarily to fill defensive gaps in peacetime on the military line.

Yet another belief of General Rawat that ‘wars will be fought on land’ underscores the continental mindset. It shows that the Army remains blissfully unconcerned about the Chinese Navy’s forays in the Indian Ocean region, which since 2008 have increased steadily.

Two conclusions would not be out of place: That the Chiefs of Staff Committee (comprising the three defence services’ chiefs) remains ineffectual, and the Army does not seem to have dovetailed the war scenario where the Indian Navy will not be able to support the land battles from the sea. Given this, what good are the calls made by umpteen Army chiefs that India needs a Chief of Defence Staff post and theatre commands, when the Army leadership does not acknowledge that on the seas, the Navy would have the primacy in war.

Unlike earlier times when the Indian Navy’s war role was to support the land-battle, it is no longer the case. With the arrival of the Chinese Navy in India’s backyard and its inter-operability (capability to fight together for common mission) with the Pakistan Navy, the naval war has assumed a dimension of its own. In this, it would be assisted by the air power. The Indian naval war objectives would be to protect our sea-lanes, military, civilian and merchant shipping assets, hundreds of islands, and to interdict enemy’s shipping, blockading his ports and attempt to destroy its naval power.

Therefore, while the Indian Army will have the primacy to uphold the territorial integrity on land, the same task in the maritime domain will be done by the Coast Guard working under the Indian Navy. Regarding war, the Indian Air Force should be in the lead for land warfare, while the Indian Navy should be responsible for the sea warfare. Moreover, capabilities in the new warfighting domains should be available to support the three defence services.

Unless these realities are accepted by the military as a whole, the usefulness of comprehensive military reforms are difficult to visualise. Cosmetic reforms are a different matter. Two examples will help illustrate the point. One, the services are asking for the post of the permanent chairman, chiefs of staff committee. Why create this new post which will be responsible mainly for streamlining the annual defence allocations and acquisitions, when the same job can be done by the present chief of integrated defence staff with veto power in the chiefs of staff committee? Moreover, what good is marginally reducing the tail of the Indian Army as recommended by the recent Shekatkar Committee, when the need is to cut the teeth or combat elements?


The truth is that the Indian military, especially the Army needs to change its mindset on warfare. If done, Pakistan would feel compelled to control its proxy war into India, and China will become careful in its intrusions on the military line.

(The writer is editor, FORCE newsmagazine)
Last edited by ramana on 30 Sep 2017 06:15, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Eidted ramana. No need for that. Your rest of the statements refute effectively.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Gaur » 29 Sep 2017 17:20

chetak wrote:Don't agree with everything that Sawhney says but this destructive mindset of primacy is what has buggered the Indian Armed Forces and this COArmyS has once again played right into the sly hands of the baboo(n)s as did some other service chiefs earlier.

Such a blasphemous and outmoded view in 2017??

Truly, as they say, some people's IQ and shoe size are the same.
what was the need for such an incendiary statement?? who engineered it and why was it articulated now??

<snip>

I hope I am wrong, but the bolded comment appears to be directed towards COAS. If so, then I would like to redirect you towards your own advice

what was the need for such an incendiary statement??


Surely disagreement with an opinion can be put forward without such insults?


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