Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
nam
BRFite
Posts: 1583
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 17 Jan 2018 19:31

Well built target are generally difficult to destroy by artillery.

May be purpose build, standoff, heavy warhead ATGM, which has ability to sneak through entry point/ windows..

May be Laser guide ATGM. An operator lases a bunker window and a ATGM follows the beam. Ofcourse weather permitting.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Jan 2018 19:38

nam wrote:Well built target are generally difficult to destroy by artillery.

May be purpose build, standoff, heavy warhead ATGM, which has ability to sneak through entry point/ windows..

May be Laser guide ATGM. An operator lases a bunker window and a ATGM follows the beam. Ofcourse weather permitting.


:D Sorry no offense but there is bit more than weather at play - the terrain is rather difficult and getting someone close enough to lase with them on full alert is tricky. Also line of sight which can be hard to achieve in moutainous terrain. Anyway all of these actions will from part of the strategy and will be used judiciously if we adopt the strategy.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1599
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 17 Jan 2018 19:57

Wow. Within an hour or two we have gone to almost full blown artillery, PGMs, missiles. In another hour we might well have air-strikes, not crossing the LOC, of course.

This in the hope of deterring the uniformed jihadis from sending across their almost endless stream of cheap non-uniformed jihadis

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Jan 2018 20:01

Hahaha. Touche.

But Karan M made some very important points re 90% of our TSP problems are to do with our attitude. Well worth reading those again and keeping them in mind.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1599
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 17 Jan 2018 20:12

:) I am well aware of that, Sir. The strategy forums have a lot of details, as well

You might know of a technique used in certain areas. If there are elements in your own side who are proving troublesome and non-cooperative, then you go and hit your enemy violently and in full view of your troublesome elements. The troublesome elements usually get the message and get in line pretty quick.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1230
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 17 Jan 2018 23:39

shiv wrote:The world in general has forgotten how little food is required for health - and there is saying that a person who eats once a day is a yogi, twice a day is a bhogi and thrice a day is a "rogi" (unhealthy person). In the sixties medical science believed that humans could be made taller, stronger and fitter forever using magic words like protein, energy, fat and vitamin. But 40 years later doctors don't have a clue how to make the world lose weight.


Same saying from the north..
gyani khaye ek baar,
do baar manukh,
teen baar khaye taabar teekar
aur char baar gadho!

[Wise men eat once a day, ordinary men eat twice a day, children eat three times and four times a donkey!] :-D

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Jan 2018 23:48

Thanks to Shivji I skipped breakfast today

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1599
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 18 Jan 2018 00:15

:shock: breakfast ?

Which part of this good world do you reside at Sir?

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2018 00:18

Are in the morning yaar. Now is old monk time.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1350
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 18 Jan 2018 01:57

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Thanks to Shivji I skipped breakfast today

I skipped dinner last night.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Jan 2018 11:31

I had a nice brekkie and lunch. Dinner is liquid diet at the pub which I have permission for from High Command - was a good lad and cleaned the roof!!!!
Shiv saar liquid diet can pass muster once in a while?

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2018 23:33

Quiz time. The 2nd Batallions of 2 Infantry Regts are well known by the Hindi names ‘xxx yyy’ and ‘xxx zzz’. So the first part of the name is the same in both bns. Name the battalions.

Avik
BRFite
Posts: 190
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 00:16

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Avik » 19 Jan 2018 04:21

^^^^^^^

Rajput and Maratha LI; Kali Chindi and Kali Panchwin

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 12:32

Avik wrote:^^^^^^^

Rajput and Maratha LI; Kali Chindi and Kali Panchwin


Absolutely right. And any ideas why they are so called ?

Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Kersi » 19 Jan 2018 16:40

Manish_P wrote:Wow. Within an hour or two we have gone to almost full blown artillery, PGMs, missiles. In another hour we might well have air-strikes, not crossing the LOC, of course.

This in the hope of deterring the uniformed jihadis from sending across their almost endless stream of cheap non-uniformed jihadis


By 8:00 pm will be the first nuclear strikes
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Jan 2018 18:07

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Avik wrote:^^^^^^^

Rajput and Maratha LI; Kali Chindi and Kali Panchwin


Absolutely right. And any ideas why they are so called ?


did some digging...
So the Kali for the Marathas perhaps comes from the facings of the tunics which were black. The Panchwin perhaps because 2nd Marathas were once the 5th regiment of the Bombay Native (light) Infantry.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 18:17

Well done !!

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 18:18

And Kali Chindi ?

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Jan 2018 18:31

Akshay Kapoor wrote:And Kali Chindi ?

Cannot get anything.

I have traced their lineage and tried to research each stage of the evolution but no luck. I suspect something around the time of the 4th Prince Albert Victor's.
does it have something to do with the first war of independence.
Last edited by ks_sachin on 19 Jan 2018 18:38, edited 1 time in total.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 18:35

Actually I don’t know. I was wondering if it’s Chindits lineage. But a regimental officer will be able to answer it best. Write to Gen VK Singh.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 18:49

ks_sachin wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:And Kali Chindi ?

Cannot get anything.

I have traced their lineage and tried to research each stage of the evolution but no luck. I suspect something around the time of the 4th Prince Albert Victor's.
does it have something to do with the first war of independence.


Mod note - it was the first war of independence not a mutiny.

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1245
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vips » 19 Jan 2018 18:52

Heavy casualties likely on Pakistani side as India responds to ceasefire violations.

Four mortar positions on Pakistani side — from where Rangers were firing 82 mm and 60 mm mortars — are damaged, they said. A defence position in a farmhouse behind Harpal and Jagwal village, too, has been hit, they added.

A senior BSF official said that by the intensity of their retaliation and the number of ambulances moving on the Pakistani side, the “casualty across the border appears to be very high…somewhere between 20-25”.


According to ANI, MoS PMO Jitendra Singh, after meeting the civilians injured in ceasefire violations, said, “All injured are being taken care of. For the first time, even though Pakistan is up to its mischief as it has always been, the kind of retaliatory action from Indian side was not seen for decades together.”


Ack Thoo - Congress Sonia and Manmohan.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9879
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Jan 2018 19:17

With Pakis we need to be a bit more ruthless and take out those ambulances also

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Jan 2018 19:41

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Cannot get anything.

I have traced their lineage and tried to research each stage of the evolution but no luck. I suspect something around the time of the 4th Prince Albert Victor's.
does it have something to do with the first war of independence.


Mod note - it was the first war of independence not a mutiny.


Yes it was the First War of Independence but I was referring to what the troops did against the Brits.

Anyhow I think I have it.

It was raised in 1798 by LtCol John Hilliard as 2nd Bn 16 Regiment of the BNI. In 1885 became the 4th (Prince Albert Victor's) Regiment of the Bengal Infantry...

Uniform was Scarlet with BLACK facings.

2 Rajput also refers to them selves as Hilliard Ki Paltan...It is in their regimental history and perhaps in their officers mess...

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 19:55

ks_sachin wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Mod note - it was the first war of independence not a mutiny.


Yes it was the First War of Independence but I was referring to what the troops did against the Brits.

Anyhow I think I have it.

It was raised in 1798 by LtCol John Hilliard as 2nd Bn 16 Regiment of the BNI. In 1885 became the 4th (Prince Albert Victor's) Regiment of the Bengal Infantry...

Uniform was Scarlet with BLACK facings.

2 Rajput also refers to them selves as Hilliard Ki Paltan...It is in their regimental history and perhaps in their officers mess...


Sachin, good effort in researching Regt histories.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jan 2018 01:31

Thanks Sir,
Interestingly I have now read through all the Rajput bn/regts at the time of the 1922 reorg but cannot find any other than 4th Prince Albert Victor's Rajput with black facings - or for that matter any kind of uniform related detail. The choice of colours in the uniform needs to be traced back if it can.

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1801
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby uddu » 20 Jan 2018 09:21


rsingh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3319
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 01:05
Location: Pindi
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby rsingh » 20 Jan 2018 19:03

What does Indian MRE look like?

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Jan 2018 19:41

rsingh wrote:What does Indian MRE look like?


Mattar Paneer, daal, rajma

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1230
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 20 Jan 2018 21:45

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
rsingh wrote:What does Indian MRE look like?


Mattar Paneer, daal, rajma


Do they taste as horrific as the MTR heat and eat stuff we get in the super markets?

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1599
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 20 Jan 2018 22:58

UAVs can see the targets clearly means if armed can take them out as well, although the message conveyed by a ground operation is significant wrt paki psyche

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Jan 2018 03:06

sudeepj wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Mattar Paneer, daal, rajma


Do they taste as horrific as the MTR heat and eat stuff we get in the super markets?


In the field Taste is directly proportional to how tired you are and when the last meal was.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Jan 2018 03:07

For the same person At home in a peace area they are indeed horrific. After a long march and patrol and eating after 12 or 24 hours dog tired it’s better than 5 star

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6986
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Indranil » 21 Jan 2018 03:40

sudeepj wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Mattar Paneer, daal, rajma


Do they taste as horrific as the MTR heat and eat stuff we get in the super markets?

MTR got a lot of tech transfer from DFRL, Mysore.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Jan 2018 04:46

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
rsingh wrote:What does Indian MRE look like?


Mattar Paneer, daal, rajma

Plus what the land may offer yes?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1248
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Jan 2018 12:41

rsingh wrote:What does Indian MRE look like?


This thread at DFI has images / accounts of mess food and some pics of MREs.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/thre ... ide.41185/

prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 881
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby prasannasimha » 21 Jan 2018 13:10

They have a whole range of foods. You can see it in Adhamya Chethana if you can go there next time. They even have a small smokeless heater etc for them and a solar pack battery heater for places like Siachen. I was shown a Chikki bar pack that provided 3000 calories but real small and dense for carrying in to difficult terrain

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6211
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nachiket » 26 Jan 2018 03:32

x-post from LCA thread

Akshay Kapoor wrote:That’s actually quite common now. This is a direct result of the degradation and devaluation of armed forces ranks and armed forces in general vis a vis the babus. Our companies are now commanded by Lt Cols which is a huge problem. But I don’t want to go OT here.

Kapoor saab, this is incredible. Could you elaborate on this phenomenon a bit? Is this a direct result of the officer shortage? Also what practical problems does this create?

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9208
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Hari Seldon » 26 Jan 2018 18:13

Always thought the week was a leftie rag but sometimes even broken clocks are right and all that i guess ...

Image

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 26 Jan 2018 18:59

nachiket wrote:x-post from LCA thread

Akshay Kapoor wrote:That’s actually quite common now. This is a direct result of the degradation and devaluation of armed forces ranks and armed forces in general vis a vis the babus. Our companies are now commanded by Lt Cols which is a huge problem. But I don’t want to go OT here.

Kapoor saab, this is incredible. Could you elaborate on this phenomenon a bit? Is this a direct result of the officer shortage? Also what practical problems does this create?


This has been going on for some time but its become really bad now and is having serious consequences on ops. I don't like talking about it too much as one has to be very careful about demoralizing troops and officers further. But in short, this is the problem:

As you probably know the bureaucracy over the years has become incredibly powerful in defence matters and have basically set themselves up as the definition of 'civilian control' where as in every other democracy it is the political leadership who have this task. Not only this over successive pay commissions they have downgraded the armed forces in terms of equivalence of rank and thus pay and benefits.

So now the situation is that service chief = a secy to govt of India. But there are 150-250 bureaucrats of the rank of secy to Govt of India and there is only one chief of each service. Take the army - there are at any time about 40-45 k officers in the army and one chief. There about 5000 IAS officers. So the ratio of a secy to total officers is is 250/5000 which is 1:20. The ratio of army officers to COAS 1 : 45,000 !

Let that sink in - 1:20 vs 1:45000

Now as you go down the ranks this becomes worse because almost every IAS officer reaches Additional Secy but just about 10-12 army officers reach the equivalent rank - Army Commander. Now because the pay commission (run by bureaucrats) equates pay to rank and banding over the years the pay of army officers could only be increased if they were given higher ranks. So now a Lt Col does a Major's and sometimes even a Capt's job and of course still earns less than his equivalent in the IAS or IPS (because there are many many anomalies). In fact the worse is that MES (Military Engineering Service) civilian officers who do jobs interchangiby with army officers in the MES and are in the chain of command now get higher pay and perks than their army counterparts who have actually served in field areas and been in combat. In fact they have now refused to serve in the chain of command and a separate set of posts equivalent to Major Generals has been created for them. This is shocking.

Another contributing factor as you pointed out is that obviously because of the shortage of officers there is restriction in number of Majors and Capt so Lt Cols have to do the job.

But more of that later.

Coming back to the issue of Lt Cols commanding companies, the problems are :

1. They are older and less physically fit for the job which is a young mans job. Same problem with our COs who are Cols instead of Lt Cols in the Pak army. Sop our COs are much older than Pak. This is only compensated with the fact that Pak COs don't lead but this is a huge operational problem for us.
2. The aukaad of a Col in India is nothing. He is like a leper in the govt. But the aukad of his equiavlent SSP or IAS officer is great. And the aukaad of the Paki Lt Col we all know is great. So what happens - deep demoralization. He does not have the authority to help the troops when they go on leave and find their land stolen by local mafia (often in league with police), or some dispute with family on land etc. In the old days (my dads time CO would write a letter and it was enough for DC or SSP to help). Today (and its been the case for some time) they don't even do that because they know the DC and SSP will laught it away. This reduces the confidence that troops have. After all CO is the father of the batallion/regt and is supposed to solve all problems. But when he can do nothing his aura reduces. This erodes the basic ethos and the magic of the army. Army can fight with INSAS and old weapons but we cannot survive the loss of the ethos. And neither can the nation.
3. At Company Commander level the problem is worse. CO Coy is a young man's job and you can well imagine the problems it creates in an army here officers lead from the front. They have older families, almost all are married and when casualties happen there are more lives that get hurt. That's why subconsciously they tend to be more cautious and take lesser risks.
4. A corollary of that is they also refer everything up to CO. Command is eroded if its not exercised. Its like butter - either use it or it melts away. Command needs to be excercised not refered up all the time. This is creating big problems of initiative. And CO gets overburdened doing jobs a Major should be doing.
5. Troops also realise that officer has less authority and this hurts their morale too.

Its a big problem and I have been saying this for years.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kakarat, Kartik, Rakesh, suryag and 30 guests