Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 03:52

So let me understand this :

1. The armed forces status is constantly reduced to the extent they become second class citizens
2. Pay is barely survival and if the soldier/officer dies he may get 5 mins of mourning from TV channels but then the family suffers financially and on a day to day basis cannot get the regular things of life...in a very high inflation economy
3. He stays away from his family for extremely long periods (5 years of field posting and 2.5 years of peace) and cannot take care of them as he has no 'currency'
4. Very tough living conditions (on LC posts toilets and langar areas are abominable, RR is better) but the magic of the Indian Army and Naam Namak Nishan is still alive so he does his job
5. But now for doing his job and just saving his life he will be branded a murderer by the police & state government whose credentials (JKP SOG excepted) we all know. And he will have to spend the next several decades running from court to court.

So how is he expected to do his job - If a terrorist is killed the police will slap a FIR. If he doesn't go after them you say its treason. Just what is he expected to do ? And what is his officer expected to tell him ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Anoop » 06 Feb 2018 04:18

Is there a petition we can sign to protest both the FIR ruling as well as the filing?

The ex-servicemen community is large. If they form the nucleus of this petition with support from the general public, perhaps the GoI will be compelled to do something. I realize that law and order is a state subject, but if the AFPSA cannot protect the army, then another act is required in Parliament.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby manjgu » 06 Feb 2018 07:31

sudhan...the shelling incident and pulwama pigs incident are not related... brush up ur geography...

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Deans » 06 Feb 2018 10:05

Anoop wrote:Is there a petition we can sign to protest both the FIR ruling as well as the filing?

The ex-servicemen community is large. If they form the nucleus of this petition with support from the general public, perhaps the GoI will be compelled to do something. I realize that law and order is a state subject, but if the AFPSA cannot protect the army, then another act is required in Parliament.


I hope in such a situation, COAS has a quiet word with PM & RM. At least today he has better access to the political leadership than in the UPA time.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Anoop » 06 Feb 2018 10:31

Deans, the problem is that down the road, the same issue can recur more frequently. Once the precedent is set, its difficult to reverse it. How many times can the PM intervene? What if political dispensation changes? The day to day functioning of the Army in the valley should be independent of these considerations. It's shocking that the AFPSA has been diluted like this legally.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 14:38

Yes this needs a systemic solution and clarity on a state govt’s right to prosecute the national army. And the judiciary’s right to overturn legislation by interpretation. Unless this is addressed the future is dangerous. If I were the enemy then I would just subvert the judiciary and state govts. I don’t need to fight a war.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 14:42

What’s the point of all this ‘strategic independence’ through indigenisation where we spend so much effort on BRF when our own laws can be subverted against us. Surely that’s far more dangerous.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Feb 2018 14:47

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Yes this needs a systemic solution and clarity on a state govt’s right to prosecute the national army. And the judiciary’s right to overturn legislation by interpretation. Unless this is addressed the future is dangerous. If I were the enemy then I would just subvert the judiciary and state govts. I don’t need to fight a war.


And you think that has not happened, that is what this Track II stuff is about. Pakistan has long been after removing AFSPA. See the Some of SC rulings for Naxal operations in Chattisgarh. PIL's filed people killed in encounter, Police say said person is alive, SC asks Police to bring the person by said date to SC, Naxals wait outside persons house and kill Police personal trying to follow SC order.

Truth is we are fighting with 1 arm tied behind our back, there is clearly a Pakistani Lobby within the Indian system which includes not acquiring 155mm artillery, Pinaka in numbers to cancellign Denel Anti Material rifles since they cause Pakic causualties in Operation Parakram.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 14:51

I have a grudging respect for Pak. They have tied us down in ways we could not have dreamed of. Aditya we have always been fighting with one arm tied. But now we have the enemy behind us (in our system) with a dagger out.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby manjgu » 06 Feb 2018 14:54

Akshay Kapoor...they have tied us sure..but at what cost to them? they dug a hole for us but fell into a crevasse themselves... i am surprised u have respect for such clowns !!

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 06 Feb 2018 15:02

Aditya_V wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Yes this needs a systemic solution and clarity on a state govt’s right to prosecute the national army. And the judiciary’s right to overturn legislation by interpretation. Unless this is addressed the future is dangerous. If I were the enemy then I would just subvert the judiciary and state govts. I don’t need to fight a war.


And you think that has not happened, that is what this Track II stuff is about. Pakistan has long been after removing AFSPA. See the Some of SC rulings for Naxal operations in Chattisgarh. PIL's filed people killed in encounter, Police say said person is alive, SC asks Police to bring the person by said date to SC, Naxals wait outside persons house and kill Police personal trying to follow SC order.

Truth is we are fighting with 1 arm tied behind our back, there is clearly a Pakistani Lobby within the Indian system which includes not acquiring 155mm artillery, Pinaka in numbers to cancellign Denel Anti Material rifles since they cause Pakic causualties in Operation Parakram.


undoubtedly, there is a paki lobby that is active in the IAS, serving and retired, MOD, FinMin and MEA lobbies, some ahole ex military senior guys, lootyens, presstitutes, especially some specific channels, among political parties and some central Indian and cashmeri politicians.

The scuttling of the artillery purchase and anti materiel rifiles could not have been cleverly orchestrated for such a long period of time without the active involvement and sabotage of these traitorous mofos. Complicit equally were powerful people in positions of political and administrative authority to follow through.

They can all be identified through their involvement in the track thoo single malt process as well as the NGO funding racket.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Deans » 06 Feb 2018 15:14

Anoop wrote:Deans, the problem is that down the road, the same issue can recur more frequently. Once the precedent is set, its difficult to reverse it. How many times can the PM intervene? What if political dispensation changes? The day to day functioning of the Army in the valley should be independent of these considerations. It's shocking that the AFPSA has been diluted like this legally.


I agree, therefore the COAS has to persuade the PM/RM to find a permanent solution, perhaps hinting that morale has been hit and the army
will be reluctant to engage terrorists in future.
If they don't listen, say so publicly (e.g in an interview, or answering a planted question) there are plenty of journalists who will take it up.
Gen. VKS did this in his tenure. The `muh thod jawab' line of the army plays into the hands of the politicians and babus, who will assume that the army will always do the job, no matter how much they get screwed.
Ex servicemen need to stand with the army leadership when that happens - instead of hearing from the likes of Ajai Shukla.

If I look at election victory margins and the no of HH having a current or retired man in the services, the services fraternity can swing an election in Haryana, Punjab, Delhi, UT, Himachal, Jammu, Assam, Arunachal & Sikkim, (56 LS seats). That is if it is united and if you have generals resigning on this issue before GE 2019.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 15:23

Good points Dean.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 15:47

manjgu wrote:Akshay Kapoor...they have tied us sure..but at what cost to them? they dug a hole for us but fell into a crevasse themselves... i am surprised u have respect for such clowns !!


Grudging respect for the enemy's tactical thinking, their ability to tie a much larger adversary down and their sheer haraminess. Not respect for them as a people.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 17:16


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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2018 18:14

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Yes this needs a systemic solution and clarity on a state govt’s right to prosecute the national army. And the judiciary’s right to overturn legislation by interpretation. Unless this is addressed the future is dangerous. If I were the enemy then I would just subvert the judiciary and state govts. I don’t need to fight a war.

Per the reading I did yesterday there is one step after FIR - that is the police themselves can dismiss or not take action on the FIR if they find that there is nothing to take action about.This is a frequently used tactic in India where the police are instructed where to shove FIRs.

Meanwhile please read these 2 reports and comment. Which are we to believe?
1. Slimes of India:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 790848.cms
An FIR was registered against the Indian Army's 10 Garhwal Unit after a 22-year-old youth was injured when the army opened fire at a group pelting stones at a patrol party in Jammu and Kashmir's Kulgam district on Monday.


2. http://kashmirlife.net/kulgam-firingno- ... ce-164385/
Kulgam police on Monday clarified that police has not registered any FIR against army’s 10 Gharwal unit for firing upon a civilian in Hawoora area of district Kulgam.

The injured identified as Arif Ahmad Lone sustained bullet injuries on his face after army opened fire upon a group of people at Hawoora area of Qaimoh, Redwani.

Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Kulgam Shridhar Patil said that FIR was registered with regard to the incident and further investigations were taken up.

“Some sections of media have reported that police have filed the FIR against the army which is baseless,” he said.

He further said that the condition of the injured youth Arif Ahmad Lone son of Abdul Rashid Lone is stated to be stable.

Meanwhile, police sources in the concerned police station told GNS that they have filed a case against the stone-pelters for the violence.

“A case under FIR No. 35/2018 under sections 147, 148, 149, 336,341 and 307 was registered against the youth involved in the violence”, they said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby manjgu » 06 Feb 2018 18:36

tactical thinking : a) who takes larger casualties at the border..no marks for guessing. This is why Pak Fauj is chary of disclosing its number of casualties to the parliament !! this is for a country which is 1/7 in population. if u multiply current paki casualties by 7 ..( to get a equivalent figure) u will see the true nature of tactical thinking. On the LOC, Pak Fauj dominates our position in some areas but its IA which majorly dominates the PA positions. So they will score sometimes. b) yes.they have tied us down in kashmir..we have to deploy more forces, but see what this jehadi culture has done to their own country..no law order..economy in doldrums . we are cantering along at 6 t o 7% GDP growth c) the fence etc has curtailed the infiltration to a large extent. Pakis have been traditionally masters of tactical thinking Gen Ayub Khan, Gen. Mushy etc!! and we know their record.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 18:38

Shiv sir, This is a separate incident.

This is the incident we are talking about.



https://www.oneindia.com/india/shopian- ... 31156.html

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 733004.cms

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Bart S » 06 Feb 2018 18:42

Akshay Kapoor wrote:I have a grudging respect for Pak. They have tied us down in ways we could not have dreamed of. Aditya we have always been fighting with one arm tied. But now we have the enemy behind us (in our system) with a dagger out.


Akshay Sir,

You would have no doubt heard of the incident today when an Paki LET terrorist was freed in Srinagar, in the process killing 2 cops.
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pak-t ... 180206.htm

One statement in the article caught my eye, and seems to tie in with what you said about the judiciary being used against national security:
Jammu and Kashmir police wanted to shift him along with five other prisoners from Srinagar jail to other high security jails outside the Valley but was disallowed from doing so by the local courts.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 18:56

Yes that's why its quite important to liquidate the terrorists because if you hand them over to the police its equivalent to giving them a 60%-75% chance of freedom. You know why terrorism stopped in Punjab ? Because the DGP and state govt wanted it to. The state govt in Kashmir is invested in terrorism. Judiciary is terrified and police is compromised.

The broad (non political) situation in Kashmir is the following - there are about 200 terrorists left. Infiltration is down..say about 50 a year manage to get in. What do we have to do - bring infiltration down to 0 and kill at least 150 of the 200 left. So we maintain our vigil on LC and in the hinterland we use the CI grid to pin down the terrorists who are already here and those who manage to sneak in. This means we have to restrict their freedom of movement through the grid system and active patrolling and also search and destroy them. This is what the army is doing.

Now what should Pak do - either they can infiltrate more - but that's tough because say 50% die in infiltration. Or they can get us to loosen the CI Grid. This is exactly what is happening. They are forcing us to loosen the CI grid, search operations and restrict our mobility so that these 200 terrorists can roam freer and create mayhem. And they are not expending their own troops for this - they are using our judiciary and polity and media against us plus their network of overground operatives. So for no expending of men or material they are trying to achieve their goals. Excellent tactics and strategy.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 19:14

Or maybe they are not doing this it’s our stupidity which is doing it. Either way their objective is being achieved.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2018 19:14

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Shiv sir, This is a separate incident.

True - but the media are totally silent on the earlier one. What is happening?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2018 20:02

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Or maybe they are not doing this it’s our stupidity which is doing it. Either way their objective is being achieved.

If you ask my opinion "our stupidity" has been working for Pakis for a long long time.

That said I see a particular political game being played here - I cannot say whether it is stupid or not - it certainly sounds stupid until we think of the alternatives and ask what the consequences of the alternatives might be.

The game that has started after elimination of all those terrorists is "give peace a chance" by not holding "misguided youth" guilty and treating them to jail terms that will make them play into the hands of Pakis who have free access into those areas by various means - not least being family ties in PoK and comm networks. This was announced openly. And those who follow handles like Lt Gen Panag will find that he tends to Retweet articles that insist that force cannot be the solution. I once posted an angry response asking "I hope you have told that to the terrorists - because I am tired of hearing it"

But I digress. I was thinking - what if 9000 students in Bengaluru were booked as being "first time stone throwers". These young people would have their names, addresses and details on police records - waiting for court hearings to come up. Obviously they would be recognized as "first timers" by lack of previous record. If 9000 students threw a stone at least once - or were in a crowd that was throwing stones the question is "Are they terrorists now" I can judge this in various ways - but let me use a personal angle. I was myself a delinquent as a teenager and many of the things I did would have put me in police books. I am not kidding - I was hardly a well behaved, narrow-path treading lad. So the question is - will all these kids grow up to be terrorists? The answer is no. But being under police investigation for months and years would kill their chances of college admission or jobs - making them ripe material for Pakis across the border. This has happened for many years and allowing that to happen is also "our stupidity". There seems to be a concerted effort to show compassion and "forgiveness" to young people who made a mistake. This seems like a sensible course to soothe wounds as well as accession to demands that Kashmiris are being alienated and that it is difficult to control adolescents who are attracted by real terrorists but who eventually get in harm's way.

All this is separate from filing FIRs against the army. But when I was (briefly) reading the history of the issue that finally led to the Supreme Court order - it came on the back of complaints that several hundred (not sure how many) deaths in Manipur were related to army action of which 59 or so were either not investigated at all or were suspicious. It was the logic that no case must be allowed to be unfair to anyone - either army or others that the courts seems to have made the ruling. I must point out that credit must go to the courts for looking at several thousand cases and pretty much absolving the army except for a small number. That is reverse praise for the army - which we all accept as true without question.

Of course I can see the issues raised about soldiers moving around courts and career hurdles that crop up. But all I can say is that we must be sympathetic to our army as well and we need to apply pressure to ensure that the army is not made a scapegoat in chutiya cooked up cases. If judges are compromised that means they are slaves to money - OK lets pay them to do the opposite thing is what I feel. Buy them up. Contribute to funds to ensure that the army is not victimized by the new process of "Kindness and compassion" to delinquents

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 20:42

^

Where is the ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pandits in this 'innocent young students' example. Just curious - so are only muslim youth in Kashmir valley allowed to experiment with delinquency and then when that leads to massacre of people of other religions (hindu or sikh or buddists) that's allowed ? What about muslim bakarwals from the hills around the valley ? They are 100% with the Indian army and India. Lastly what about Jammu ? And Ladhakh.

By equating terrorists who have a strong Islamic terror agenda with students from Blore and yourself do you think you are doing the correct comparison. I know you are trying to find some silver lining to this cloud. But do think this through calmly - can we use our normal templates to look at jehadi violence. What if there is an openly hostile neighbor arming these people in the name of Islamic extremism ...is that the case in Blore ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2018 22:08

Akshay Kapoor wrote:^

Where is the ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pandits in this 'innocent young students' example. Just curious - so are only muslim youth in Kashmir valley allowed to experiment with delinquency and then when that leads to massacre of people of other religions (hindu or sikh or buddists) that's allowed ? What about muslim bakarwals from the hills around the valley ? They are 100% with the Indian army and India. Lastly what about Jammu ? And Ladhakh.

By equating terrorists who have a strong Islamic terror agenda with students from Blore and yourself do you think you are doing the correct comparison. I know you are trying to find some silver lining to this cloud. But do think this through calmly - can we use our normal templates to look at jehadi violence. What if there is an openly hostile neighbor arming these people in the name of Islamic extremism ...is that the case in Blore ?

The status of Pandits can only be addressed when stability can be brought into Kashmir. Do you believe it is the army's job to bring political stability into Kashmir? The army is one arm of government and they certainly help set the environment for stability. But after that there has to be a political process.

I am not looking for a silver lining. I am asking what is the alternative? I have already mentioned repeal of 370. Aside from that we could simply start shooting all the anti-Indians. I suggest that this will not be a bright thing to do. Even worse is the idea that we need to "sort Pakistan out first". That is an admission that we can do nothing about J&K without sorting Pakis out. That is exactly what Pakistanis say they want: "Solve Kashmir the way we want". That is what Pakistan is openly aiming for as a declared intent - the idea that India can never ever settle and control J&K as long as Pakistan exists. Do we Indians agree? Pakistan cannot be sorted because we really have to extend our admiration for them back to 1956. That was when they wooed the Americans and essentially made themselves undefeatable by India. We have come a long way since then - but Pakistan is still strong enough to queer the pitch. But I must say that this is the first time - the very first time in 20 years on BRF that we are talking about "settling" Kashmir. That is how far we have come. I admit it is easier for me to demand patience because I have been a watcher for over 50 years. The Pandits who have died will never get their homeland, but at least we can hope to give something back to the younger ones. That is more than we can say for the Sindhis and Sikhs and Bengalis who lost their lands in 1947.

We can settle Kashmir with our without Pakistan. Pakistan will be sorted out separately. But to settle Kashmir - force has to be mixed with diplomacy. And we cannot solve all historic issues simultaneously. Pandit issues, like Pakistan, have to be sorted out separately

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 22:27

Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that 'its the army's job to sort Kashmir'. Of course there has to be a political process - isnt that what elections are ? And what kind of a statement is ' we cannot shoot everyone'. Who is shooting everyone ? I never suggested that ! Anyway you show me one other army in the world that is excising the kind of restraint under grave provocation that we are.

The case we are discussing is an act of self defence by soldiers of your army carrying out a mandate you have given them. We are discussing the consequences of the police action in filing an FIR. Talking about settlement and'innocent students' is well...............

And what settlement ? Kashmir is part of India. Any solution to Kashmir will need a demographic correction between Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh divisions. Kashmir itself is not homogenous (the valley is very diff from the mountains-bakarwals). So yes I agree 370 should have been repealed decades ago. But what other settlement are you talking about ? There is a govt in Jammu and Kashmir.

Lets take this settlement discussion to the J&K thread and you can explain what your 'solution' is. That is the right place for this discussion.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 06 Feb 2018 22:34

I think we need to stop self flagellation on Kashmir settlement.
Its part of India and that's it.
Nothing to settle.
POK is also ours and will be liberated at right time.

Enough Nehruvian pusillanimity.


Thanks to this waited 15 years to incorporate Goa after the British left.

The first colonizer was the last one out.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 22:35

ramana wrote:I think we need to stop self flagellation on Kashmir settlement.
Its part of India and that's it.
Nothing to settle.
POK is also ours and will be liberated at right time.


Enough Nehruvian pusillanimity.


Thanks to this waited 15 years to incorporate Goa after the British left.

The first colonizer was the last one out.


+ 108

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2018 22:38

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that 'its the army's job to sort Kashmir'. Of course there has to be a political process - isnt that what elections are ? And what kind of a statement is ' we cannot shoot everyone'. Who is shooting everyone ? I never suggested that ! Anyway you show me one other army in the world that is excising the kind of restraint under grave provocation that we are.

I did not ask you. I answered the question myself. Also if you recall I did not say that the army or anyone else is shooting everyone. We can only shoot the violent people - up to a point. What is that point? We seem to have reached "that point" where shooting is being protested. Whether the protest is right or wrong only time will tell. If the army is restricted but the politicians manage to make peace then things may look up. If that does not work we will see a resurgence of violence and regret that we lost the gains made by the army. Time will tell.

Akshay Kapoor wrote:The case we are discussing is an act of self defence by soldiers of your army carrying out a mandate you have given them. We are discussing the consequences of the police action in filing an FIR. Talking about settlement and'innocent students' is tangential.

And what settlement ? Kashmir is part of India ? Any solution to Kashmir will need a demographic correction between Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh divisions. Kashmir itself is not homogenous. So yes I agree 370 should have been repealed decades ago. But what other settlement are you talking about ?

Lets take this settlement discussion to the J&K thread and you can explain what your 'solution' is. That is the right place for this discussion.


Sir I started with what I thought was the reason for the FIR. May I remind you that it was you who asked me about Pandits. I have no solutions and i am getting out of this "discussion" right now. I stated opinions. Not solutions. Every man and his uncle has a solution. I am not needed for that. I do not want to play semantic games about the word "settlement". Jammu and Kashmir are hardly in a "settled state" and word play will not change that.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 22:49

Sir, come to the J&K thread when you have some time. I'm sure you have some useful ideas on how to manage the situation in the valley. I am going to post some quite useful videos. Check them out.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2018 03:46

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
ramana wrote:I think we need to stop self flagellation on Kashmir settlement.
Its part of India and that's it.
Nothing to settle.
POK is also ours and will be liberated at right time.


Enough Nehruvian pusillanimity.


Thanks to this waited 15 years to incorporate Goa after the British left.

The first colonizer was the last one out.


+ 108

+216 :)

Jaswant Singh put it best. Jammu & Kashmir is part of the constitution. How can I negotiate the constitution?

Constitution is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. There is nothing further to brood upon. All of PoK and Aksai Chin will come back to the fold. India will never be complete until that happens.

shiv
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2018 10:18

Army kids move NHRC against stone-pelting at personnel

Army kids move NHRC against stone-pelting at personnel
Dhananjay Mahapatra | TNN | Updated: Feb 8, 2018, 08:30 IST

NEW DELHI: At a time when FIR against Armymen and withdrawal of cases against stone-pelters is a subject of hot debate in J&K, children of two Army officers took an unprecedented step to move the National Human Rights Commission, asking it to protect army personnel's human rights being violated daily by stone-pelters.

Preeti, Kajal and Prabhav, children of two Lt Colonels and a retired Naib Subedar, presented NHRC chief Justice H L Dattu with a complaint, which complimented the apex human rights body and Amnesty International for zealously protecting the human rights of locals in disturbed areas of J&K but complained that they are turning a blind eye towards the plight of Army personnel who face threat to life daily from stone-pelters. They said a sub-optimal war was being waged in J&K since independence and the state as well as the Centre have decided to enforce AFSPA to require Army to assist the 'failed state machinery'.

"The Army has been deployed in J&K since the state machinery was incapable of handling the law and order situation. But the irony is that the very administration which the Army seeks to assist and support has failed to safeguard the human rights of the armed forces personnel," their petition said.

"Do personnel of armed forces, facing grave and serious violations of human rights, not deserve the attention and empathy of the custodians of human rights? As young Indians and citizens of this great country, especially as children of Army personnel, we are concerned about the state of affairs of the troops serving in disturbed areas," the petition said and sought urgent intervention of NHRC to hold inquiry into stone-pelting incidents and protect human rights violations of armed forces personnel.

Referring to the Shopian incident of Army personnel firing in self-defence and registration of FIR against them, they asked why no FIR has been registered against stone-pelters and only against soldiers who were acting in self defence. The petitioning children told NHRC that Shopian was not an isolated incident and recounted five such FIRs lodged against armed forces personnel for taking action to secure the area from militants and stone-pelting crowd. They said neither the state government nor the Centre did anything to protect them.
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"On one hand, the Army is expected to curb unlawful and disruptive activities by trouble-makers but while doing so they are expected to face attacks on them without having the human rights to defend their lives. They are expected to watch their troops suffer injuries, deaths and also witness their vehicles burnt, rifles snatched etc. All these actions are violations of human rights of the personnel," the petition said.

They said other countries have prescribed stringent punishment for those throwing stones at armed forces personnel. In the US, they said, a person or group of persons throwing stones at armed forces personnel can be jailed for life. In Israel it was up to 20 years, New Zealand it is 14 years, Australia 5 years and UK 3-5 years.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 08 Feb 2018 22:01

an article on Gen K Sundarji
https://theprint.in/2018/02/08/general- ... -doctrine/

General Krishnaswamy Sundarji, soldier of the mind who rewrote India’s military doctrine

excerpted
This takes me to 14 August 1990, Pakistan’s Independence Day in Islamabad, and just a week after the encounter with Sundar at Delhi’s military hospital. At the official reception, I buttonholed General Mirza Aslam Beg, the controversial Pakistani army chief who had just held Exercise Zarb-e-Momin (the strike of the faithful). Or, more accurately, his counter strike to Brasstacks.

The basic premise of the exercise was, that in the next war, Foxland (as India is referred to in Pakistani war games) breaks through initially, and Pakistan then counterattacks and envelopes the invader. It was the first major Pakistani exercise that was so defensive in nature, where survival, rather than an all-out victory, or the “liberation” of Kashmir, was the main objective.

Surely, Brasstacks and the scary and somewhat fictional vision of 3,000 Indian tanks rolling down the desert, threatening to bisect Pakistan, had changed a military mindset rooted in medieval history and thrust-and-parry purposelessness of India’s armoured strike forces in 1965 and 1971.

“So does your publication write a lot about defence and security?” Beg asked, making polite conversation.

“Yes,” I said, “and we are now running Sundarji’s column.”

“What is it called?” Beg asked.

“Brasstacks,” I said.

The temperature dropped a few degrees. This general’s eyes did not exactly light up in delight.

Would you still have any doubts about Sundarji’s real legacy?

ramana
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 09 Feb 2018 01:20

wig thanks for the reminder but its written by a hack. This guy is unworthy of the access he had.

Gen Sunderji to me is the military leader to KS garu's strategic eminence.

And note both had same initials KS.

About Brasstacks, Rajiv Gandhi chickened out when he had an opportunity to clean up Pakistan. And got a US visit as a favor.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 10 Feb 2018 20:36

Picture is there in link below...

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 0731867136 —> Straight From LOC - Line Of Control. Ghatak Platoon of Battalion from Bihar Regiment. Equipped with Bharat Electronics limited ( BEL ) Night Vision Goggles.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 10 Feb 2018 21:47

NV goggles are required, yes certainly, but what about this??

Is this situation acceptable even after so many decades after independence??

Why concertina wire, why not have a permanent high security wall to protest an Indian Army installation??


This concertina wire business is prevalent all over J&K.

Doesn't anyone care for the soldiers who are there ONLY because some idiot politicians effed up big time??

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2018/feb/10/jammus-sunjuwan-army-camp-attack-updates-army-kills-two-heavily-armed-jaish-e-mohammed-terrorists-1771205.html

Sources said a group of 2-4 militants stormed into the army camp, which is spread over many acres of land and has many residential quarters and a school, by cutting the concertina wire on the rear said.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 11 Feb 2018 00:00

No. No one gives a damn about soldiers and their families. I have linked Gen Hasnains article from SWARAJYA many time where he shows why URI happened because of no NVG and exactly as you say no wall and no HHTI. As Bde Commander he initiated case for wall, didn’t happen. As Dic commander he did so - nothing happened. And ten as Corps Commander he did so and ****** all happened.

I have been saying for a long time we need to harden our defences and improve conditions on LC - bunkers, trenches, toilets, kitchen faculties. It’s abysmal.

We need to protect the installations in hinterland too.

He also said that we have not hardened our defences and conditions at LC and conditions are abysmal. He says army has to stop this ‘We will fight with what we have’. This mentality has become very deep. And he gives many exmaples of it. This cannot go on. Govt has to be told ‘Hobe Na’. Nation will get the defence it pays for. Period.

URI came and went. Nothing changed.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 11 Feb 2018 00:03

If someone can link the articles again I will be grateful. Because it’s too depressing to do so again. I wince everytime I see them. Going to drown my sorrows.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Shameek » 11 Feb 2018 00:10

^ There is an article linked in the J&K thread reporting of funds allocated for better defenses. Hopefully its not just empty words.

EDIT: Article after the Uri attacks

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 11 Feb 2018 00:24

Thanks Shameek for linking this.


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