Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Jan 2020 16:26

Nikhil T wrote:40 day war reserves is going to be terribly expensive, with ordnance needing proper storage, servicing and replacement. I don’t see how a 40 day intense war is possible in this day and age, where international intervention would be quick to stop any prolonged war between nuclear armed countries. Seeing as how this is an Army project, this might also starve IAF and IN of funding.

Not so much if most of the stockpiles are indian sourced, this will ensure economies of scale, logistics and timely replacements , also build up a supplier base that will reduce foreign imports., if done right. Besides the next war is not an "if" . The best general fights the war during peacetime. More power to Modi.

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Jan 2020 16:29

chetak wrote:What a pic

That the best pic i had seen for the Republic day !

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 27 Jan 2020 16:50

Question for Experts:

I have always wondered, why there are no war stories of valor and sacrifice from IPKF campaign except maybe inside war colleges and some Libraries.
Most of us know about 1948,62,65,71 and 99 but there is hardly any narrative about IPKF in SL.
No movie, no war dispatches, hardly any thing in public domain about Indian soldiers and their sacrifices, no heroic names like Kargil and 1971.
I was too young but I think VP Singh chickened out in welcoming last batch of IPKF soldiers from SL lest not to offend DMK chief and CM of TN, MuKa.

Is this a coincidence, stories not "interesting" enough or an attempt by Govts of the day to avoid talking about a conflict which no one wants to acknowledge ?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 27 Jan 2020 17:01

Vikas wrote:Question for Experts:

I have always wondered, why there are no war stories of valor and sacrifice from IPKF campaign except maybe inside war colleges and some Libraries.
Most of us know about 1948,62,65,71 and 99 but there is hardly any narrative about IPKF in SL.
No movie, no war dispatches, hardly any thing in public domain about Indian soldiers and their sacrifices, no heroic names like Kargil and 1971.
I was too young but I think VP Singh chickened out in welcoming last batch of IPKF soldiers from SL lest not to offend DMK chief and CM of TN, MuKa.

Is this a coincidence, stories not "interesting" enough or an attempt by Govts of the day to avoid talking about a conflict which no one wants to acknowledge ?

Politicans and Army Generals have effectively brushed it under the rug. Not a single body from MoD was even present to receive the bodies sent home.

Acknowledging the the actions in SL would also mean acknowledging the role played by SFF/SF/RAW in building up the LTTE as well.

Veterans who live on will however recount 'some' stories if you keep the supply of Old Monk flowing.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 27 Jan 2020 20:54

^^ Thank you Khanna sahib !

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 27 Jan 2020 21:20

Vikas wrote:Question for Experts:

I have always wondered, why there are no war stories of valor and sacrifice from IPKF campaign except maybe inside war colleges and some Libraries.
Most of us know about 1948,62,65,71 and 99 but there is hardly any narrative about IPKF in SL.
No movie, no war dispatches, hardly any thing in public domain about Indian soldiers and their sacrifices, no heroic names like Kargil and 1971.
I was too young but I think VP Singh chickened out in welcoming last batch of IPKF soldiers from SL lest not to offend DMK chief and CM of TN, MuKa.

Is this a coincidence, stories not "interesting" enough or an attempt by Govts of the day to avoid talking about a conflict which no one wants to acknowledge ?

If took a Mahinda & Gotabaya Rajapakshe to erect the first IPKF memorial in Sri Jayawardenepura Kotte. It's near to the National War Memorial of Sri Lanka at a place of prominence it deserved and the names of all the personal who sacrificed their lives engraved on its walls. If you ever visit Colombo do make it a point to visit these two monuments to the Rann Veer's.

I cannot say much about how the Indian Political system and the Civil Services treated these boys.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 27 Jan 2020 22:52

Vikas wrote:Question for Experts:

I have always wondered, why there are no war stories of valor and sacrifice from IPKF campaign except maybe inside war colleges and some Libraries.
Most of us know about 1948,62,65,71 and 99 but there is hardly any narrative about IPKF in SL.
No movie, no war dispatches, hardly any thing in public domain about Indian soldiers and their sacrifices, no heroic names like Kargil and 1971.
I was too young but I think VP Singh chickened out in welcoming last batch of IPKF soldiers from SL lest not to offend DMK chief and CM of TN, MuKa.

Is this a coincidence, stories not "interesting" enough or an attempt by Govts of the day to avoid talking about a conflict which no one wants to acknowledge ?

1. Madras cafe was a movie, though not from army perspective
2. There was an episode in some DD serial too

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jan 2020 05:57

Madras Cafe was mostly fiction.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 28 Jan 2020 09:05

nachiket wrote:Madras Cafe was mostly fiction.

It did cover many parts of the conflict at high level,
1. Raw/ib being involved in training
2. Political environment of the time, Rajiv Gandhi and VP Singh's roles
However the Valor of ia has not been depicted yet. Would definitely like to see in Jaffna raid.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 Jan 2020 20:04

The book "The Beckoning Isle" by Abhay N Sapru gives a good insight into the conditions and some of the combat in Sri Lanka.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 29 Jan 2020 01:08

Lots of stuff online. Read about the death ride of a team of the 13th Sikh and 10th Para Commandos into Jaffna University. Who were para dropped, ambushed and slaughtered almost to a man. When their ammo ran out, the remaining 3 survivors went on a bayonet charge into a storm of machine gun fire. Only one man survived to tell the tale. Their courage would have made proud their valorous ancestors at Saragarhi.

Read about the youngest ever MVC winner, 2 LT Rajeev Sandhu who fought back even though both his legs were almost blown off. Whose parents never even saw his mortal remains. I never met the man, but can never forget him.

Read the PVC citation of Major Ramaswamy Parameswaran. Apparently his batch mates claimed he did not receive the honoured posthumous treatment as other PVC winners because it wasn't a 'popular war', especially in the south.

I can also never forget one particular cover in 1987 by India Today that showed an Indian platoon ambushed and wiped out in some Lankan street, with the bodies of our soldiers lying about. Unforgettable, traumatic even. You may find it in the archives.

There are many books on the subject though no 'great' novel or non fiction work that I came across. But there was a lot of fine reporting by the news magazines- India Today in particular. Shekhar Gupta made his bones covering it.

The politicos were reluctant to acknowledge the sacrifice of the forces, and so it became a dirty little war condemned to obscurity.

It was the Indian Army at its finest. Unsupported, sent on a mission with half assed political objectives, derided by local parties, fighting a war with one or both arms tied behind their back, they did a job. Stoically.

At the end, then PM VP Singh did not have the grace, dignity or balls to welcome the IPKF back personally. Hack thoo.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 29 Jan 2020 01:49

I can also never forget one particular cover in 1987 by India Today that showed an Indian platoon ambushed and wiped out in some Lankan street, with the bodies of our soldiers lying about. Unforgettable, traumatic even. You may find it in the archives.

That was Nov 87. Brought back the memories of that cover page.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Jan 2020 15:05

^^^Oh! Even I remember that cover as well...with LTTE fighters standing next to the bodies and inspecting them.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 31 Jan 2020 04:31

Baikul wrote: Read about the youngest ever MVC winner, 2 LT Rajeev Sandhu who fought back even though both his legs were almost blown off. Whose parents never even saw his mortal remains. I never met the man, but can never forget him.

Rajeev Vihar in Chandigarh (an AWHO society) is named after 2 Lt Rajeev Sandhu. His story is written at the entrance - truly unforgettable. Was KIA just 4-5 months after commission.

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 31 Jan 2020 05:28

rohitvats wrote:^^^Oh! Even I remember that cover as well...with LTTE fighters standing next to the bodies and inspecting them.

There is an addendum to that story.

One of the LTTE terrorists pictured on that cover was found to have migrated to Toronto and was living the life in the Scarborough area. Somebody from the Indian Security forces (serving or retired - don't know) recalled the face and wheels were set in motion and the terrorist was deported as an unwanted alien based on the information provided by the Indian Government to the Canadian Security Establishment.

Satyam Eva Jayate!

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 31 Jan 2020 06:13

Vikas ji, there are quite a few operations that have taken place in India's near shore that have been kept quite. I can only surmise why have they been kept quite. In India, post Independence, the Military was rarely feted. The felicitations and hagiographies were reserved for the Political class. The Political class kept the Armed Forces at a distance. Also Official Secrets Act (OSA) was effectively used. There was a Commando Raid that took place in 1971 operations, 9 miles behind enemy lines - it is yet to be declassified. For heavens sake it is going to be 50 years. BRFites may remember one of our erstwhile forumites Late Brig. Ray C referring to it. He couldn't tell us the details as it was still considered as an Official Secret.

Just prior to the 1971 operations, there was a request by Mrs. Bandarnaike for help. This Operation IIRC correctly was also called Operation Torchlight. Recalling conversations from decades ago, it was considered as a show of force and the risk of firing a shot in anger was very low. It was thought of as a warm-up before the real deal up North. Ironically, she asked for the Indian Armed forces support to retain her hold on power and criticised the same Indian Armed Forces when they came into help her political rival JRJ.

Phillip saar will definitely know more about it.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 31 Jan 2020 10:52

Ops Torchlight is well documented in Sri Lankan military literature. Indian army flew in an aid to civil power role even as the Sri Lankan army was fighting the internal insurgency.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2020 11:04

Shameek wrote:
I can also never forget one particular cover in 1987 by India Today that showed an Indian platoon ambushed and wiped out in some Lankan street, with the bodies of our soldiers lying about. Unforgettable, traumatic even. You may find it in the archives.
That was Nov 87. Brought back the memories of that cover page.

That was an unarmed/lightly armed team that had gone to the market to purchase fresh provisions. This was before the start of hostilities. Needless to say, they ran out of ammunition quickly. The LTTE tortured many by neck-lacing - placing burning tires around the neck. That cost LTTE any goodwill and sympathy in the India, including Tamils.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Feb 2020 13:41

wig · Post by **wig** » 17 Feb 2020 12:07

SC directs Centre to grant permanent commission to all women officers in Army

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/sc-di ... army-42998

wig · Post by **wig** » 18 Feb 2020 10:48

Understanding the inner workings and selection process of army

For ease of understanding the Supreme Court’s (SC) judgment extending permanent commission (PC) to all Women Officers (WOs), including command opportunities, it is important to first understand what the army’s Arms and Services are, writes Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain (Retd)

and

First are the so-called Combat Arms: Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armoured Corps and also Artillery (the last is classically not counted among these, but by virtue of the nature of its task involving battle fires is colloquially counted as such). WOs do not get commissioned into these.
We then have the Combat Support Arms: Signals, Engineers, Army Air Defence, Aviation and Intelligence. WOs are commissioned in all five as these roles involve limited direct combat with the enemy.
Then come the Services: Army Service Corps (ASC), Army Ordnance Corps (AOC) and the Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (EME) who in conventional war serve in administrative support roles. WOs are commissioned in all three.
There are also two other departments: Army Education Corps (AEC) and the Judge Advocate General’s Branch (JAG); WOs are commissioned in both; in fact these are only two departments that, from 1992 onwards, have given PC to WOs.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/ ... S0MyK.html

wig · Post by **wig** » 18 Feb 2020 17:53

https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/security ... e-command/

Security challenges in J&K to be handled by Theatre Command
extracts

India will have two to five theatre commands to deal with future security challenges along the western and northern borders and the first one is expected to be operational by 2022, Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Bipin Rawat said today, rolling out plans for big ticket military reforms.
The Chief of Defence Staff said the Western and the Eastern commands of the Indian Navy will be merged into the proposed Peninsular Command and it will take care of security challenges in the entire Indian Ocean region.
Gen Rawat said security challenges in Jammu and Kashmir will be handled by a dedicated theatre command in a major revamp of existing structures.
The Chief of Defence Staff was talking to a group of journalists on his plans for military modernisation.

and

The tri-services command under a naval commander will have air assets as well as support of the Army, and it will take care of entire responsibility of maritime security challenge in the Indian Ocean Region.
“The security of Indian Ocean region has to be dealt with by one commander and he will not be required to get approval from Delhi for operational matters including movement of ships,” said Gen. Rawat.
He said the proposed air defence command is likely to be rolled out by middle of next year and certain air assets like missiles of the Indian Army and the Navy will be part of it.
The Chief of Defence Staff said that Government plans to have a separate training and doctrinal command modelled on similar structure in the US, while a separate command will be set up to take care of logistical requirements of the three services.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 18 Feb 2020 18:41

I am curious about consequences for promotion at the higher levels, after the unification of commands. For example, if the Eastern and Western Naval Command now becomes a Peninsular Command, that is one less Flag Officer position available to groom the next CNS. Similarly for the Army's Northern and Western Command.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Feb 2020 21:19

Confucious all round! The existing service commands should remain as such,but instead of let's say western command,renamed as the western fleet,etc. Various units can be grouped together for specific ops under the overall authority of the Pen.Com. Too much of reorganisationwould be a huge waste of time and money,turf wars,etc. and chaos during a crisis.

Reg. the use of P-8Is at Doklam assissting the IA, it indicates a lack of specialised ISR,EW,ELINT,etc. aircraft in the IAF which usually carries out recce for any army. We know that our intel alphabet has a few birds whose qualities aren't publicised. Asking the IN everytime to loan their LRMPs would be a problem if we havf a crisis with the Chins in the maritime sphere as well as on the ground. It would be better to acquire dedicated ISR birds for the IAF/IA.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 18 Feb 2020 22:42

there were talks of JSTAR and ISTAR sometime back..not sure which stage of DPP is that at ....

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 20 Feb 2020 23:52

First truck mounted AK-630 is now ready for Army trials. Can be used to target Drones, Mortar and Artillery shells from a distance of 5 kms.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Feb 2020 00:00

wiki mentions AK 630 has a range of 4Km ..has it been extended?? i would expect it to be lower for smaller targets like artillery..

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Feb 2020 19:22

This is what the New Army HQ , The Thal Sena Bhawan in Delhi Cantt will look like. Bhoomi poojan today.

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 21 Feb 2020 20:08

ArjunPandit wrote:wiki mentions AK 630 has a range of 4Km ..has it been extended?? i would expect it to be lower for smaller targets like artillery..

How effective it is going to be? Pantsir is custom made for this

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 21 Feb 2020 20:40

chetak wrote:This is what the New Army HQ , The Thal Sena Bhawan in Delhi Cantt will look like. Bhoomi poojan today.

The shape looks quite different to the usual buildings. Was very curious to see if there was a top view. Here is what is shown in Navbharat times

8 'Spokes'.. Interesting eh

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 21 Feb 2020 21:06

A desi Pentagon perhaps?!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Feb 2020 21:15

^^octagon

man i used to go through this and manekshaw center for a long long time....for a decade..for every weekday...those were days....

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Feb 2020 21:19

Prithwiraj wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:wiki mentions AK 630 has a range of 4Km ..has it been extended?? i would expect it to be lower for smaller targets like artillery..

How effective it is going to be? Pantsir is custom made for this

pantasir is rocket based...that should be expensive and have challenges with load time..on the rounds you can fire...i think this last resort low cost solution that could be deployed in masses...in the end USAF has phallanx based last resort defence for their surface ships and army ....phallanx has the advantage of weight over ak 630 but lacks in all the rest parameters, e.g., range, rate of fire, angular coverage.

I think it could be a good solution for protection against drones/swarms or low cost artillery at short ranges..it would be quite mobile too...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Feb 2020 23:14

Vips wrote:First truck mounted AK-630 is now ready for Army trials. Can be used to target Drones, Mortar and Artillery shells from a distance of 5 kms.

https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/12305 ... 57218?s=20 ---> OFB designed Air Defence Gun! Ugly, but good if it works as AK-630 is locally produced by OFB. Rate of Fire is 5,000 rounds per minute. Effective/Flat Trajectory range is 4,000 meters (13,000 ft). Ammunition storage is 2,000 rounds.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 21 Feb 2020 23:23

^^^^^
what will be the illumination radar

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 22 Feb 2020 07:00

Thal Sena Bhawan – the future Indian Army Headquarters will be an environment-friendly structure.

The building will be spread over 39 acres opposite Manekshaw centre in Delhi cantonment and will bring together Army Headquarters which is presently split into eight pockets across Delhi. These offices are located in South Block, Sena Bhawan, Hutments Area, RK Puram, Shankar Vihar and other locations across the city.

The project of the new building was authorized in an effort to help not only accommodate all related offices in one place but also to make up the existing deficiency of 44 per cent.

According to the Indian Army, the new ‘Thal Sena Bhawan’ has been conceptualised as a multi-storey green building adopting Green Rating for Integrated Habitat Assessment (GRIHA) norms. Over 7.5 lakh sq.m 6,014 offices will be constructed which will hold 1,684 officers both military and civilian and around 4,330 sub staff. There will be basic amenities as well as a residential area for security personnel.

Proposed to be completed in five years, it is expected to generate a minimum of 2 lakh hours of skilled and unskilled work.

So where will the Army Chief sit?
The Indian Army Chief will continue to sit in South Block which is in the close proximity to the Defence Minister and the existing Army Headquarters will stay where it is. However, once the new building is completed some functions will be shifted there.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 22 Feb 2020 07:22

shaun wrote:^^^^^
what will be the illumination radar

https://idrw.org/army-asks-ofb-to-work- ... tani-army/

They seem to be going for a radar/FLIR combo. The added benefit in installing these systems at the borders is that when we fire these guns at the primary targets (mortars, rockets, artillery shells) the excess gun rounds will also fall on the pakis heads causing them immense takleef. So we can actually kill two birds with a single round.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Feb 2020 10:51

Rakesh wrote:
Vips wrote:First truck mounted AK-630 is now ready for Army trials. Can be used to target Drones, Mortar and Artillery shells from a distance of 5 kms.
https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/12305 ... 57218?s=20 ---> OFB designed Air Defence Gun! Ugly, but good if it works as AK-630 is locally produced by OFB. Rate of Fire is 5,000 rounds per minute. Effective/Flat Trajectory range is 4,000 meters (13,000 ft). Ammunition storage is 2,000 rounds.

This has been something many of us on BR have been advocating, and seems a takeaway from 27-Feb-19. We need to CIWS defence for Army and airforce installations to take out incoming ordinance on key targets.

The Jf-17 bombs missing targets and the H-4 bombs getting jammed was the reason why the F-16's after firing AMRAAMS at SU-30's came close to the LOC when Wing Commander Abhinandan shot down a F-16.

So these type of platforms will make the enemy, use more PGM's per target and risk thier launch platforms while reducing Indian casualties.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 22 Feb 2020 20:59

New Army HQ will have underground war room with facility for real time monitoring.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 29 Feb 2020 18:48

Pediatrician Dr. Madhuri Kanitkar cracks the glass ceiling in Indian Army.

A pediatrician has achieved one of the rarest feats in the armed forces this year. Major General Dr. Madhuri Kanitkar, former Dean of Armed Forces Medical College Pune, has been promoted to the second-highest rank of Lt. General in the Indian Army.

This will also be the first time in the history of the Indian armed forces that a couple will hold the 3-star rank of Lieutenant General. Kanitkar's husband, Lt Gen Rajeev Kanitkar, retired from the Army recently.