Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Nihat
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Nihat » 04 May 2020 01:08

nam wrote:
Nihat wrote:Om shanti

I hope the government goes up from asymmetric response to an absolutely devastating one, which includes use of stand off weapons.

The message sent across the border needs to be harsh and visible.


I always advocated a simple rule. Authorise a week long 155MM fire assault on Pak Army positions all through the LC, duly recorded by UAV & broadcast-ed, moment there is any causalities in J&K. Be it on the LC or in J&K proper.

It destroys more area than a stand off air strike would do.


As much sense as your point makes, it's really not about maximum impact on my opinion. It's about maximum visibility.

Pakistan makes no distinction better uniform and uninformed jihadi, for them life is peanuts. They breed humans like disposable assets. But for us, the sight of tricolor laden coffins, wailing widows and orphaned kids is earth shattering.

We need to provoke Pakistan into conventional action and make high visibility gains. The clear distinction between ground and air strikes was also the undeniability of the latter and that's what got them to react the very next day.

We will accomplish very little by even large scale Arty strikes at terror launch pads, because low end jawans, young officers and jihadi pigs mean nothing to that country.

Proper intelligence led high visibility strike that kills high ranking officers and making gains on the ground and announcing it is what will truly hurt Pakistan. For them it's all about H&D.

Take that away and everything falls apart.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby RKumar » 04 May 2020 01:30

Bloody provide them thermal signature readers and what not, at this age it’s not that tuff to develop. Time and again, we are spending money and efforts on high visibility technologies. We should find a balance to spend some efforts on infantry weapons and basic technologies. I hope, we will learn from this and focus on bread n butter stuff than ordering 36 Rafael or 114 fancy birds.

We need to come back stronger with lessons learned there is no other way. Stop giving free money and Olivier branch to JK. GoI has to communicate, civilians in JK are like rest of us. So no special treatment. And if minority’s get special rights, why it is not applicable in K?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby kit » 04 May 2020 02:30

somdev wrote:
Karan M wrote:Room intervention + HRT is the worst of tasks, best done by YOs and jawans who train for it day in and night out, i.e. the NSG. Why are we constantly sending in SF who specialize in COIN, or even ParaSF into such tasks.CQB is one of their profiles, possible they have teams dedicated for it, but even so, they have NSG.

These high casualties need to have us change our SOP. Starve these rats out and then when they are tired, send in the NSG.


Spot on Karan ji. There are specialists out there to clear a room or engage in CQC for room breaching and clearing


Bring in a few anti tank weapons and flame throwers and burn the entire area to the ground ..who do you need to preserve houses ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sajaym » 04 May 2020 10:51

Karan M wrote:Room intervention + HRT is the worst of tasks, best done by YOs and jawans who train for it day in and night out, i.e. the NSG. Why are we constantly sending in SF who specialize in COIN, or even ParaSF into such tasks.CQB is one of their profiles, possible they have teams dedicated for it, but even so, they have NSG.
These high casualties need to have us change our SOP. Starve these rats out and then when they are tired, send in the NSG.


Shubham wrote:January 2015, we had similar incident in which CO of RR unit was martyred iirc trying to get some cornered pigs to surrender...


There are 2 very simple & often ignored reasons why a SWAT Team is usually sent in in such scenarios...They are unknown & impartial.

When a regular army unit is assigned to a region, their usual practice is to famililarise themselves with the locals in their region. This familiarisation / 'Bhaichaara' in a place like Kashmir comes with 3 big cons:
1) The locals become familiarised with the SOPs / Routes / Timings of the concerned unit.
2) The locals become familiarised with the specific personnel/Chain of command of the concerned unit.
3) The locals can prey on the emotions of the concerned unit in standoff scenarios.

The above points can be very easily used by the PIGS (Pakistani Insurgent GuyS) to set up ambushes. I believe that in standoffs, the prevalent modus operandi is to have the police & regular army to brief the SF/SWAT teams on the area of standoff and then back off & secure the perimeter. Hard to say whether this SOP had been followed in this encounter or not. IT IS ONE THING TO SPECULATE FROM ARM CHAIR AND A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING TO BE ACTUALLY OUT THERE! A big Salute to the braves who lost their lives.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 04 May 2020 11:28

Long term,

As a first we need to understand Pakistan does not want peace but we do not have Miltary superiority to Overwhelm them, at present we need to increase 155mm , radars, thermal sights, Pinaka rockets, motors etc. And start targeting areas across the LOC proactively, let POK civilians suffer, but Bridges, road connectivity, Cell phone towers, electricity grids, diesel stocks, Ammo stocks, missile stocks, Helicopter launch pads etc need to be targeted on mass. Over time POk civilians will leave, making PA trucks, Miltants more obvious targets, hopeffuly deforest thier side of theLOC with Agent orange type stuff, deliver anti personal mines through artillery etc. This make sure militants walk without scouts to the LOC, with long range anti material rifles etc, they along with Pakistan army should die in POK, there must be no man zone 10Km on Paki side of the LOC.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Philip » 04 May 2020 11:35

Op. Bluestar.Mistakes learnt and the second attempt rectified without any losses.
The IA has to change tack. Rushing in troops to save civilians is a recipe for losses,playing into the terrorists' hands.In future,no attempts at rescuing civvies in dangerous rescue ops.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 04 May 2020 13:16

Philip wrote:Op. Bluestar.Mistakes learnt and the second attempt rectified without any losses.
The IA has to change tack. Rushing in troops to save civilians is a recipe for losses,playing into the terrorists' hands.In future,no attempts at rescuing civvies in dangerous rescue ops.



Freedom is expensive but the costs are quickly forgotten over the course of a single news cycle.

one may not realize it because one isn't personally paying for it, but someone does it on one's behalf, paying with their lives.

Their families are as equally devasted as any civilian family, lives uprooted and sometimes, generations disrupted simply because of some lofty concept of "saving lives" that maybe didn't need saving after all, because these lives were always safe and it was merely a jehadi ploy to draw in the troops to a well laid trap.

The families of the jawans will be hit much harder because they have so little in the way of institutionalized social support in the rural areas to help them pick up the pieces of their shattered lives and move on.

The replacement for these experienced officers will take anywhere from 12 -18 years for the IA to train and equip for operations. Battle hardened Majors and Colonels cannot be conjured out of thin air and no lateral entry from other sources is even possible.

In hindsight, they should have cordoned off the area and simply waited it out while reinforcing the perimeter with additional troops.

Then again, they may have had specific orders to go in, because some desk bound baboo(n) safely ensconced in the rear echelons may have decided that a hostage drama playing out on live TV was "undesirable"

Om Shanti.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 04 May 2020 15:50

We are fighting on our side as they keep sending pigs across, first mistake.
We play to the moral army shibboleth and put our people in harms way, second issue.
We do room interventions and CQB with folks who are senior officers or trained SF folks who may/may not be the best folks for the task, because they train for multiple challenges, conventional war, third issue.

The first is the true problem. Second and third are mere tactical issues. Even if we were to ratch up a huge count using either a Para SF team who train only for room interventions (quasi NSG) or NSG itself, how long before Pak figures it out, and sends some fidayeen who incite a room intervention, trigger suicide vests, take down an entire building? You lose the team. They will take hostages too, to ensure you cant blow up the building.

So bottomline, the first issue is the key one.

You deter by hitting them so hard, that they think 5x before sending even one guy across.

No Indian GOI has done this. Because to do so, means preparing for war too, and increasing the spend proportionately.

But your public will vote out such a guy. They want free food, free subsidies, all sorts of stuff because many were, desperately poor after 70 years of (mis) rule.

That is the crux of the situation we find ourselves in.

Second,even if he does do so, he runs the risk of a war that sets back development even further.

Targeted assassinations, a non conventional war against Pakistanis opens them up to using their vast 5th column in India to do likewise. Hands them an easy excuse to go after HVTs en masse. So the only answer is to make them bleed across the border and do so, heavily. Risks apart, you have no other option. Go berserk or be prepared for this grinding war of attrition.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 04 May 2020 15:52

Why The Army Needs To Revise Its Rules Of Engagement With Terrorists In Kashmir




May 03, 2020

Some of the Pakistani terrorists hiding inside the forest managed to slip out and took shelter in a house at Handwara on Saturday morning. They reportedly took the inmates of the house hostage. The 21 RR commanding officer, Colonel Ashutosh Sharma, started negotiating with the terrorists holed up in the house to secure the release of the hostages.

While detailed reports are awaited, it is learnt that Col Sharma, along with Major Anuj Sood, Naik Rajesh and Lance Naik Dinesh, along with SOG sub-inspector Shakeel Qazi, entered the house and were killed by the terrorists.

The civilians were safely extricated from the house and the terrorists also killed.

But these clinical details conceal a highly unfortunate aspect of the encounter: that the deaths of the army officers and JCOs were completely avoidable.

And that the deaths occurred primarily due to two reasons: the misplaced priority on completely ruling out all chances of ‘collateral damage’, and the otherwise honourable and valourous ethos of Indian Army officers leading from the front.

The injudicious emphasis on completely avoiding any collateral damage started sometime in the middle of the last decade when the UPA I regime instructed the army top brass to ensure no civilians were harmed in anti-terror operations.

“Earlier, in a situation like the one at Handwara, we would have asked all those holed up in a house to come out and surrender, and if they did not do so we would fire mortars and bring the house down,” said a senior army officer who commanded a battalion in J&K during those times.

But the UPA under its chairperson Sonia Gandhi forced the army top brass to change the rules of engagement.

“Suddenly, there was a lot of stress on avoiding collateral damage and ensuring that civilians or innocents were not harmed in any way during anti-terror operations. We were told that it would be acceptable for even a hundred terrorists to escape if there was danger of one innocent civilian being hurt in an operation,” said a Major General-ranked officer who had served extensively in J&K.

Another Colonel-ranked officer who had served in J&K recalled that after stone-pelting became rife from the summer of 2008, the army was strictly instructed against responding to stone-pelters.

“Our men did not have shields or other equipment to counter stone-pelters. Day after day and week after week our men got severely injured by stone pelters and there was nothing we could do since we were under strict instructions to not use any sort of force against the stone pelters,” he said.

The then political leadership’s (UPA’s) stress on treating stone-pelters with kid gloves and avoiding civilian casualties in anti-terror operations stemmed from the ostensible need to ‘win the hearts and minds’ of the people of Kashmir Valley.

But in the process, anti-terror operations by the security forces got severely compromised and the morale of the troops suffered.

“We were asked to fight with one hand tied behind our backs,” said the retired Colonel.

While the political objective of ‘winning hearts and minds’ of the people of Kashmir Valley remained elusive, the security forces suffered casualties and the terrorists as well as their handlers in Pakistan received morale and tactical boosters handed over to them on a platter by the UPA.

...............................


Army officers say that the existing rule of engagement, or standard operating procedure (SOP) — of avoiding civilian casualties at any cost — still prevails and continues to take an “unacceptable toll” on the security forces.

This SOP needs to be revisited and changed now.

Another important ethos — though a proud, principled and valorous one — of army officers leading from the front also has to change.

“Officers, and definitely not commanding officers of a battalion, do not need to lead from the front. This is an outdated ethos that needs to change, at least in Handwara-like situations,” said the Brigadier.

“Once the CO gets directly involved in an operation like that at Handwara and puts himself in the line of fire, his primary task of directing and overseeing the conduct of the 900-odd men under him gets compromised,” said the Major General.

And what’s more is the huge morale booster that the terrorists and their handlers in Pakistan get from the killing of a CO and officers.

“The killing of a senior officer in an anti-terror operation is completely unacceptable, more so when its completely avoidable. It becomes a major cause for celebration among our adversaries and boosts their image as well while demoralising us,” added the Major General.

He is of the opinion that all officers should be issued necessary instructions in this regard immediately.


Jaideep Mazumdar is an associate editor at Swarajya.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Philip » 04 May 2020 17:15

IPKF experience. The LTTE were brilliant in their overall strategy." Get rid of the top leadership of the enemy", both political and military.
Results.
Pres.Premadasa assassinated.
Pres.Chandrika survived.
Defence Min. Gothabaya Rajapakse survived,now president.
Sr.Ministers Lalith Athulathmudali,Gamini Dissanayake,
Defence Min. Ranjan Wijeratne,Foreign Minister Lakshman Kadirgamar, Min.Neelam Tiruchelvam and the total Tamil TULF leadership of Amirthalingam and co. assassinated. Tamil polihico Kumar Ponnambalam also hit.
Navy chief Clancy Fernando assassinated, scores of Sri Lankan top military men.
The entire leadership of the other Tamil groups .Sabaratnam,Uma Maheswaran,etc.

The IPKF found that the LTTE snipers were picking off the officers first,so they later on removed their epaulettes of rank. Perhapsthe same needs to be done in Kashmir too,protecting the ranks of the armymen and masks used to hide identity elsewhere to prevent quislings in the Valley from identifying key officers/ officials involved .

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 04 May 2020 18:26

Nihat wrote:As much sense as your point makes, it's really not about maximum impact on my opinion. It's about maximum visibility.

Proper intelligence led high visibility strike that kills high ranking officers and making gains on the ground and announcing it is what will truly hurt Pakistan. For them it's all about H&D.


I understand the urge to punish, however the foremost question is; is there anything in Pak worth invading? You capture land, either we will have to give it back or hold it with tremendous cost & resources. To what purpose? PA will keep sending cannon fodder through the new defensive line.

It is a numbers game. You commit large resource to knock off PA officers. They will just replace it with someone else. It doesn't matter if they are good or bad.

As i said it is a numbers game. Even if it is a lowly PA jawan. Every dead PA jawan is an additional pension to PA. Every destroyed artillery gun, post, camp is additional cost to PA.

So instead of invading and falling in to a trap, which is what PA really wants, we need to bleed PA dry on the LC and IMPORTANTLY show it to everyone.

It is not as if IA or India is a passive force, we don't SHOW it to the world. We want to replicate Israel or US, because we get to see a video of say a Spike blowing up Israel's adversary or Spice hitting a target.

Where are our videos?
Last edited by nam on 04 May 2020 18:32, edited 1 time in total.

nam
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 04 May 2020 18:31

It is about the tech. We need tech to monitor PA convoys, positions, artillery guns, camps etc. We need tech to hit these targets and this tech needs to be in the hands of IA.

How about a killer drone howevering over a region in PoK and hitting a incoming PA convoy? while broadcasting it to a control station on our side? or a killer drone dropping on a PA 155MM artillery unit? dully sending back the video of final moments?

There is no need to invade and waste money. It is about PA's H&D. Use tech to show it can be hit.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vidur » 04 May 2020 18:43

Somebody forwarded this twitter thread on Handwara to me. It is an excellent assessment of what needs to change in anti terrorist operations. I found it very illuminating

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/12 ... 0792693760

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 04 May 2020 18:52

Philip wrote:IPKF experience. The LTTE were brilliant in their overall strategy." Get rid of the top leadership of the enemy", both political and military.
Results.
Pres.Premadasa assassinated.
Pres.Chandrika survived.
Defence Min. Gothabaya Rajapakse survived,now president.
Sr.Ministers Lalith Athulathmudali,Gamini Dissanayake,
Defence Min. Ranjan Wijeratne,Foreign Minister Lakshman Kadirgamar, Min.Neelam Tiruchelvam and the total Tamil TULF leadership of Amirthalingam and co. assassinated. Tamil polihico Kumar Ponnambalam also hit.
Navy chief Clancy Fernando assassinated, scores of Sri Lankan top military men.
The entire leadership of the other Tamil groups .Sabaratnam,Uma Maheswaran,etc.

The IPKF found that the LTTE snipers were picking off the officers first,so they later on removed their epaulettes of rank. Perhapsthe same needs to be done in Kashmir too,protecting the ranks of the armymen and masks used to hide identity elsewhere to prevent quislings in the Valley from identifying key officers/ officials involved .


even after the epaulettes of rank were removed, and groups came under fire, the jawans would, by training, look to the officer for instructions and that was enough for the ltte snipers to target the officer and eventually take him out and likewise for the NCOs.

in cashmere, just like in many other places, there are dhobis, barbers, tailors, little cashmeri run snack shops for samosas, tea and other items, sweepers, attendants and other "what have you" employed by the IA inside their camps and these are mostly locals.

many local cashmeri "contractors" supply local produce and deliver directly to many camps, apart from drivers and cleaners who keep their eyes wide open and know what to look for.

no need for anyone to even look further for intel regarding the happenings and goings on.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 04 May 2020 19:19

13th attempt. 13! That much commitment, passion, love for the motherland.

And we lose a person like him, in exchange for what exactly?

Col Ashutosh Sharma fulfilled dream of joining Army in 13th attempt

For six-and-half years, Colonel Ashutosh Sharma made 12 unsuccessful attempts to join the Army.

It was in the 13th attempt, a number considered unlucky by many, that he fulfilled his dream of donning the olive green uniform.

Col Sharma, who was among five security forces personnel killed during an encounter with terrorists in north Kashmir late on Saturday night, is the second commanding officer of the 21 Rashtriya Rifles who lost his life in anti-terror operation.

The decorated army officer was part of a number of successful counter-terrorism operations in Kashmir.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 May 2020 23:36

Maj sood left IIT seat for NDA....if we have to lose men then at least it is for something worth it..

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby NeoStal » 05 May 2020 01:37

Can anyone here please share the procedure for contributing to the National Defence Fund from the US? It seems the contributions are only allowed via Indian banks.Moderators, please feel free to delete if not pertinent to this thread and recommend the apt thread offline.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby brvarsh » 05 May 2020 01:54

chetak wrote:
Philip wrote:IPKF experience. The LTTE were brilliant in their overall strategy." Get rid of the top leadership of the enemy", both political and military.

The IPKF found that the LTTE snipers were picking off the officers first,so they later on removed their epaulettes of rank.

Kashmir is a bit different. Here for long strategy has been fairly consistent that is to announce "I am here". Often terrorist themselves make a round to see how the Major looks in person who is going to kill him one day. What we need is a bit more patience. Reminding ourselves the cost of the lives of our soldiers, its not cheap. Men of Indian defense forces are not fodders neither they are commodities. Thermal scanners, drones, Choppers, Bullet proof jackets should not be optional. If collateral damage will happen then so be it, if it guarantees our soldiers would be safer.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 05 May 2020 03:03

Hitting hard for the sake of hitting hard alone is not going to work. The days of pounding LOC posts, most of which would be well fortified and the troops dug in on reverse slopes should come to an end. If the shells hit some civilian targets, for Pakistanis, this has the bonus of giving their locals another reason to hate India strong enough to enroll in jihadi tanzeems. The Pakistani elite has little connection or stake in the wellbeing of even their regular soldiers. We could slaughter an entire battalion, they could care less! Even their young officers facing the brunt of the Indian retaliation are mostly middle class background now. The elites stay back.

To make any step work, you have to get into the head of the enemy and think what are his motivations and goals. It is our doctrine of proportional retaliation - Balakote strikes and the surgical strikes were well within the domain of proportional retaliation - that has led us to this pass where we lose a few men every day and there is an occasional 'spectacular' high casualty attack once or twice every year.

One motivation/goal of Pakistani elites is a sort of 'proving their credentials' to the real power centers by attacking India. Another is simply to keep the conflict alive and continuously try to expand the envelope of the conflict. Yet another is to try and check if the 'scope for conflict' exists, say when the Indian leadership is distracted in another crisis, something like dealing with the corona virus.

One of our goals in retaliation can be, that our retaliation should be so severe, that it completely upsets the applecart for the career prospects of the person 'proving his credentials'. Instead of people praising abdul for his daring attack, they should be chiding him for 'attacking India without planning and bringing this massive counterassault (that has destroyed our assets) on our head!'

Another goal can be to simply destroy enough of PakMil capability that is expands our options of retaliation going forward. E.g. taking out some irreplaceable asset that both expands the possibility of future retaliation and provides greater security to the Indian republic in the mean time.

I regret to say that we have been repeatedly found lacking focus and attention span when it comes to dealing with Pak challenge. This is going to be at least a 25 year conflict before the final denouement arrives. Lets take steps that will hasten this outcome.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Vivek K » 05 May 2020 06:09

I think a plan to extend the LOC westwards till we drive pukis out of POK must Be put into motion. Offense is the only defense against such a cowardly enemy.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 05 May 2020 10:56

Embracing death in line of duty - Colonel Sharma displayed the highest tradition of leadership in the Indian Army by Lt Gen DS Hooda (retd)
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... duty-80476
excerpts
In battle, each situation is unique, decisions have to be taken instantly, and there is a foe who is fighting with his back to the wall. Sometimes things do not go as planned, but good units rebound from setbacks.

Some questions are being raised on social media, whether the CO of 21 RR needed to get personally involved in the firefight, and why the Army is suffering too many casualties. Bringing up these issues shows a lack of understanding about how the Army operates and its fundamental ethos.

Command of a unit is the most intimate interaction between an officer and his soldiers. A thousand men stand ready to do the CO’s bidding, including the laying down of their lives, but this relationship stands on an edifice of mutual trust and confidence. This trust is built up if the CO faces the same danger as his men and leads from the front.

In any operation, the CO is typically in a location where he can eyeball the emerging situation on the ground. Life-and-death decisions cannot be taken while sitting in the office with a telephone pressed to your ear. Colonel Sharma was exactly where he needed to be.

and
It is often believed that soldiers put themselves in harm’s way only because they are ordered to do so. This is a grave misunderstanding. The warrior ethos is fostered in the military until it becomes the only honourable thing to do. When facing grave danger, it is military values that drive a soldier, not merely orders. Major Sood summed this up in his social media post, ‘When you’re older, you will realise the only thing that matters, the only thing, is that you had courage and honour.’

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 05 May 2020 11:34

sudeepj wrote:Hitting hard for the sake of hitting hard alone is not going to work. The days of pounding LOC posts, most of which would be well fortified and the troops dug in on reverse slopes should come to an end. If the shells hit some civilian targets, for Pakistanis, this has the bonus of giving their locals another reason to hate India strong enough to enroll in jihadi tanzeems. The Pakistani elite has little connection or stake in the wellbeing of even their regular soldiers. We could slaughter an entire battalion, they could care less! Even their young officers facing the brunt of the Indian retaliation are mostly middle class background now. The elites stay back.

To make any step work, you have to get into the head of the enemy and think what are his motivations and goals. It is our doctrine of proportional retaliation - Balakote strikes and the surgical strikes were well within the domain of proportional retaliation - that has led us to this pass where we lose a few men every day and there is an occasional 'spectacular' high casualty attack once or twice every year.

One motivation/goal of Pakistani elites is a sort of 'proving their credentials' to the real power centers by attacking India. Another is simply to keep the conflict alive and continuously try to expand the envelope of the conflict. Yet another is to try and check if the 'scope for conflict' exists, say when the Indian leadership is distracted in another crisis, something like dealing with the corona virus.

One of our goals in retaliation can be, that our retaliation should be so severe, that it completely upsets the applecart for the career prospects of the person 'proving his credentials'. Instead of people praising abdul for his daring attack, they should be chiding him for 'attacking India without planning and bringing this massive counterassault (that has destroyed our assets) on our head!'

Another goal can be to simply destroy enough of PakMil capability that is expands our options of retaliation going forward. E.g. taking out some irreplaceable asset that both expands the possibility of future retaliation and provides greater security to the Indian republic in the mean time.

I regret to say that we have been repeatedly found lacking focus and attention span when it comes to dealing with Pak challenge. This is going to be at least a 25 year conflict before the final denouement arrives. Lets take steps that will hasten this outcome.


we seem to have fallen into the predictable routine of some short bouts of action followed by long periods of appeasement.

The level of govt support must needs be the same across all states because the poor are poor everywhere, and by and large, have almost similar problems to contend with.

we seem to have islands of appeasements where we have, for the past 70 odd years, been foolishly hoping that inimical groups will see the error of their ways and adopt the ways of Indic integration and be grateful for what has been differentially provided to pacify such inimical groups.

Instead, we now see increased demands from such entitled inimical groups, who rather than integrating with the rest of the country, are increasingly differentiating or purposely "othering" themselves in terms of dress, language, religion and food choices all of which are specifically aimed at belittling the basic structure of our democratic civilizational state.

we have reached the sorry state where MNCs operating in India, under pressure from such inimical groups, have started labelling vegan products like wheat, pulses and other grains forming the core and basic diet of our civilization for an untold numbers of centuries as "halal"

and like good, dumb, and obedient sheep we have passively accepted such brazen attacks on our civilizational culture without the slightest hesitation or question and no one says a word even after such illegal practices have been made public.

Great hue and cry are made in the sickular media when a few poor vegetable sellers display the bhagwa on their handcarts but we have remained blind and mute for over 70 years when almost every hotel in India is forced to display the insidious sign "we use only halal meat".

we are being assaulted daily in ways that are insidious, regressive and machiavellian and such subtle subliminal conditioning pumped constantly by visual, electronic and print media is goebbelsian in intent and widespread in their reach and content. The rolers and ropers have us mentally hogtied and culturally muzzled and socially defanged.

They have slowly tried to change the perception, narrative and sensitivity of the Indian psyche through bollywood, litfests and electronic means to make it more receptive to BIF and other disruptive ideas that negate the concept of the civilizational state.

The narrative has been adapted alike for the juvenile mind as for the adult.

so a few rounds of fire across the LOC doesn't really do all that much because we seem to have missed the woods for the trees. we need to constantly rattle their cage and hit back viciously every single time some abdul takes a potshot at the Army.

we have nothing to gain in cashmere by mollycoddling the local populace because every manjack there is aware of how to play the con game and saddle the taxpayer with the bill.

Treat them like any other Indian state and they will come to their senses.

This govt has the right intent and has really fragged the paki economy directly affecting the abduls.

Potato, onion and tomato have brought home the harsh reality of the ummah like never before. But much more needs to be done on this front.

so much so, that niazi and bajwa have taken to begging, using afridi and shoaib akthar to plead for charity and covid medication + ventilators from India

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Larry Walker » 05 May 2020 15:00

It's like you take-on one dog from the pack and thrash it pale. .. the others will whine and howl but will stay back. . Keep doing it 1 dog at a time ... Start with the one that is the proverbial Alpha. . In this case the Porkies.

chetonzz
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby chetonzz » 06 May 2020 11:35

"Strategy" for Cashmere...

please listen from 1.25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y27DxN9FdYU

Deans
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Deans » 06 May 2020 13:14

NeoStal wrote:Can anyone here please share the procedure for contributing to the National Defence Fund from the US? It seems the contributions are only allowed via Indian banks.Moderators, please feel free to delete if not pertinent to this thread and recommend the apt thread offline.


You can do a bank transfer to the Army battle casualties fund - Syndicate bank. Instructions can be googled. I support that cause.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 06 May 2020 14:18

+1

I do so too

Here are the details, post from SSridhar dated » 04 Oct 2016 07:28

Syndicate Bank staff ‘thrilled’ to operate battle casualties fund - Vinson Kurian, Business Line

The account details were posted before and several BRfites contributed as well. Let all of us do our bit.


The staff at Syndicate Bank are ‘thrilled’ that their bank has been chosen to maintain and operate an account named ‘Army Welfare Fund Battle Casualties’.

Donations received in the fund will be utilised to provide financial assistance/grant to widows, next of kin or dependants of Army personnel who have lost their lives in battle.

Special relevance

This ‘fits well’ with the current security environment but sits lightly on contributors since they are expected to spare no more than ₹1 per day, amounting to ₹365 per year, sources said.

KS Bhat, All-India Vice-President, Syndicate Bank Staff Association, said that the staff are proud that they get to manage the account designed for such a noble purpose. “Syndicate Bank is also the right choice since it has been a pioneer of a thrift deposit scheme called Pigmy Deposit introduced 80 years ago to inculcate the habit of savings among the public.” The bank used to send its agents to the doorsteps of depositors to collect four annas (25 paise), Bhat said. It had become so popular that many banks would later mimic it under different appellations.

Account details
“In a way, Syndicate Bank deserves the honour of receiving donations under the new Army welfare scheme,” he added, and requested the bank’s management to popularise it. If 100 crore of the country’s population were to contribute to the fund, it could mop up ₹100 crore per day, ₹3,000 crore per month and ₹36,000 crore per year.

The Army Welfare Fund Battle Casualties account has been opened at Syndicate Bank’s Defence Headquarters Branch, South Block, New Delhi. The IFSC Code is SYNB0009055 and the account number 90552010165915.

A statement of the Adjutant General’s Branch, Army Welfare Fund Battle Casualties, dated June 23, 2016, explained the specific circumstances leading to the setting up of the account. It said that ‘post the Siachen tragedy in which 10 Army men lost their lives due to an avalanche, there has been a groundswell of sentiments across the nation towards the contribution of the Army.’ There was also perceived desire of spirited citizens wanting to contribute financially for the welfare of the next of kin of battle casualties. The issue was debated upon in consultation with the Ministry of Defence, leading to opening of the account ‘to provide financial assistance to next of kin/widows/dependants of battle casualties.’

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 May 2020 14:33

https://twitter.com/ChinarcorpsIA/statu ... 5202507777
Op Sharshali (Pulwama) update. One more terrorist (total TWO) eliminated. Joint Operation in progress


हिरण्यरेता
@Hiranyareta
·
2h
I am hearing total 13 were trapped initially so 11 more yet to find their 72.
Heavy stone pelting by locals.

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 06 May 2020 14:38

^^ Alternately you can donate to the 'Army Central Welfare Fund'

The official site - Army Central Welfare Fund

Monetary contributions to the Army may be made through Demand Draft in favour of “Army Central Welfare Fund” payable at New Delhi and forwarded to the under mentioned address :-

Director, Accounts Section
Ceremonials and Welfare Directorate
Adjutant Generals Branch
Room No 281-‘B’ (Accts Sec)
Integrated HQ of MoD (Army)
South Block, New Delhi – 110011

Alternatively, the amount can also be sent directly in the account of Army Central Welfare Fund under intimation to the above office as per the details of Bank Account given below :-

Name of Fund: Army Central Welfare Fund

Account No: 020500101007721
Type of Account: Saving
Bank: Corporation Bank
Branch: Chandni Chowk, Delhi - 110006
IFSC Code: CORP0000205



The contribution towards Army Central Welfare Fund is 100% exempted from income Tax vide clause (III HC) of Section 80-G of Income Tax Act 1961.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nachiket » 07 May 2020 00:07

wig wrote:Embracing death in line of duty - Colonel Sharma displayed the highest tradition of leadership in the Indian Army by Lt Gen DS Hooda (retd)
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... duty-80476
excerpts
In battle, each situation is unique, decisions have to be taken instantly, and there is a foe who is fighting with his back to the wall. Sometimes things do not go as planned, but good units rebound from setbacks.

Some questions are being raised on social media, whether the CO of 21 RR needed to get personally involved in the firefight, and why the Army is suffering too many casualties. Bringing up these issues shows a lack of understanding about how the Army operates and its fundamental ethos.

Command of a unit is the most intimate interaction between an officer and his soldiers. A thousand men stand ready to do the CO’s bidding, including the laying down of their lives, but this relationship stands on an edifice of mutual trust and confidence. This trust is built up if the CO faces the same danger as his men and leads from the front.

In any operation, the CO is typically in a location where he can eyeball the emerging situation on the ground. Life-and-death decisions cannot be taken while sitting in the office with a telephone pressed to your ear. Colonel Sharma was exactly where he needed to be.




I do not think people were questioning the need for Colonel Sharma to be at the encounter site. They were questioning the need for him to go into the house in what seemed to be an ostensible hostage rescue operation/negotiation which ended in an ambush.

Army tactics in J&K or any other theater can be dictated by political considerations, such as the need for minimizing collateral damage or the oft repeated "giving one chance to surrender" to the terrorists or even the availability of heavy weapons and restrictions on their usage. If so, then the Indian public, at least the ones who care about the lives of their soldiers should be honestly shown the effect of these considerations. Then if they feel the need to do so they have the right to ask their political leaders to change them.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Anoop » 07 May 2020 02:59

nachiket wrote:They were questioning the need for him to go into the house in what seemed to be an ostensible hostage rescue operation/negotiation which ended in an ambush.


Why would a professionally competent and decorated officer do such a thing, except that in his assessment, it was either safe enough to do so or else necessary enough to take the risk himself instead of exposing only his men to it? Given the fact that both he and his 2IC went in, it is perhaps the former reason. The fatal fire came from the shed outside the house, not from the house itself and they may not have known that the terrorists were still alive or that they were in the line of fire. So, it could simply be a result of very bad luck.

Gen. Hooda's point bears repeating - the man in charge on the ground knows best. Second guessing him or lamenting about political pressure from Delhi or Srinagar may just be a facile explanation based on our own biases.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 07 May 2020 13:52

It's been a decade or more that DRDO et al have developed remote controlled robots like Daksh. Why on earth are we not using those or similar systems to check the safety of an enclosed area before our men move into those ?

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 07 May 2020 14:32

IA has to be questioned on it's lack of interest in pushing for high technology in the area of COIN and LC attrition warfare.

It should have funded lot of research on robotic system, not just for COIN (room intervention, anti IED radars, anti ambush system etc), but also in the area of logistics in the high and difficult mountain areas.

Along with this there has no requirement towards improving the kill chain in the LC fire fight with Pak. Artilery shell cannot hit positions on reverse slope. Mortars don't have range to hit artillery positions.

No efforts towards UAV with very long range optics or radars to detect and track Pak artillery positions behind mountains.

IA solution of using throwing men for every problem needs to stop. And the habit of spending on increasing T90 numbers and Apache for a war, we may never fight.

Need to spend money on the warfare we are currently fighting. COIN & LC attrition warfare.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2020 14:40

nam wrote:IA has to be questioned on it's lack of interest in pushing for high technology in the area of COIN and LC attrition warfare.

It should have funded lot of research on robotic system, not just for COIN (room intervention, anti IED radars, anti ambush system etc), but also in the area of logistics in the high and difficult mountain areas.

Along with this there has no requirement towards improving the kill chain in the LC fire fight with Pak. Artilery shell cannot hit positions on reverse slope. Mortars don't have range to hit artillery positions.

No efforts towards UAV with very long range optics or radars to detect and track Pak artillery positions behind mountains.

IA solution of using throwing men for every problem needs to stop. And the habit of spending on increasing T90 numbers and Apache for a war, we may never fight.

Need to spend money on the warfare we are currently fighting. COIN & LC attrition warfare.


nam wrote:IA has to be questioned on it's lack of interest in pushing for high technology in the area of COIN and LC attrition warfare.

It should have funded lot of research on robotic system, not just for COIN (room intervention, anti IED radars, anti ambush system etc), but also in the area of logistics in the high and difficult mountain areas.

Along with this there has no requirement towards improving the kill chain in the LC fire fight with Pak. Artilery shell cannot hit positions on reverse slope. Mortars don't have range to hit artillery positions.

No efforts towards UAV with very long range optics or radars to detect and track Pak artillery positions behind mountains.

IA solution of using throwing men for every problem needs to stop. And the habit of spending on increasing T90 numbers and Apache for a war, we may never fight.

Need to spend money on the warfare we are currently fighting. COIN & LC attrition warfare.


I disagree, the enemy will not give a long notice before war, it will be pretty sudden when these are required, its because of conventional strength the enemy uses non uniformed Jihadis, Tanks and Apaches are also required along with detecting targeting enemy artillery etc.

If we have weakness near Jammu or Rajastan Border the enemy will attack there, while it is important to have the right equipment for high altitude regions, we should not loose ability to attack/ deter the enemy on the plains.

The problem is for too long we have been fighting the war at our territory, this makes the population feel that we are losers and nobody likes to be on the loser's side, thats why when the PAF bluster was called on 26-Feb-19 many went into shock.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby nam » 07 May 2020 15:30

Pak will not carry out a 65 style sudden attack. They know they cannot win in a full conventional war and India will not allow a "sudden, short quick" war of 5-10 days with a Pak victory.

And we fall in this trap regularly. Pak inducts 300 T80, we go ballistic and buy 1000+ T90, blowing up a large budget. We buy Apaches. Pak inducts 500 Aim 120, we end up buying Rafale for Meteor, with IAF blowing up the budget for anything else.

Pak spend it budget on smaller number of higher tech platform, to force us to commit large budget to over match their procurement. it knows we will not attack, until invaded. And until the whole LC game going on, Pak has no reason to attack.

Our sole focus should not just be preparing for a fight which may come once in 30-40 year and involve loosing a F16 & Mig21. At the same time loosing men in thousands in COIN & LC in those 30 years.
Last edited by nam on 07 May 2020 15:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby kvraghav » 07 May 2020 15:44

nam wrote:Our sole focus should not just be preparing for a fight which may come once in 30-40 year and involve loosing a F16 & Mig21, while loosing men in thousands in COIN & LC in those 30 years.

This is exactly what is working for the Pakis. They know India would never be on a full offense. The moment they sense it, they backtrack and diffuse the situation. This is what happened in the case of Mig 21 shootdown. The moment they sensed PM was having a press conference to announce a full scale offensive, they released the pilot 30 minutes before. They are good at it now. Induct small number of Hi Tech platform. Have asymmetrically large number of force multipliers and attack with full might and give a bloody nose. By the time India decides to respond, they backtrack. To prevent this, India tries to match with large number of Hi Tech platform for defensive roles and creates a mess of the procurement.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2020 15:55

This is the problem, Pakistan problem needs a solution, which requires active domestic production of all types of weaponry, not just this vs that. If we did not have that ROE- we could have probably fired a few R-77's, they had no quams in firing Amraam at our aircraft well inside our Territory but we restrained ourselves. There is no easy solution rather building a lot of military capabilities including tanks, missiles, attack helicopters, each area we strengthen it takes an option out for Pakis. And learn like the Pakis that these treaties are nothing but a piece of paper- Pakis have ignored every treaty signed with them.
For eg. if we didnt have rudimentary Nukes in 1989 - they would have nuked us - their F16's were loaded till the CIA warned them that India had a few bombs to retaliate. This fact is lost on our people.
For 70 years we have been going with Miltary Balance which is can hold the Pakis but dont what go for miltary revolution with increased domestic production- the more capabilities we have and the stronger we are, less likely other countries want to help Pakis.

Pakistan as such is sustained due to its usefulness for being anti India on which the entire BIF forces feed from unless we solve it we cannot have strategic safety.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 May 2020 16:06

Aditya_V wrote:For eg. if we didnt have rudimentary Nukes in 1989 - they would have nuked us - their F16's were loaded till the CIA warned them that India had a few bombs to retaliate. This fact is lost on our people.

kahuta -IG????

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2020 16:26

This was after that around 1989-90 when VP singh Government was in power and Ik Gujral was a FM.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 May 2020 16:35

Aditya_V wrote:This was after that around 1989-90 when VP singh Government was in power and Ik Gujral was a FM.

may i request you to please share a link ..couldnt find it

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2020 16:50

For obvious reasons, this is being hidden, but here is a big clue

https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/revealed-pak-us-blackmailed-india-with-nukes/story-SqSsw5gGV2z4Fwg5JVxnKI.html

https://theprint.in/national-interest/inder-gujral-an-accidental-pm-too-decent-for-the-job/20064/

The story, that Gates brought a Pakistani nuclear warning to New Delhi, was never conclusively established. But at one point, many years later, after a great deal of cajoling and pleading, Gujral admitted to having had a curious conversation with his Pakistani counterpart Sahibzada Yakub Khan. Sahibzada had come to India ostensibly to defuse tensions in those fraught weeks. But he said, as they walked down the South Block corridor, “Gujral sahib, this will not be like any of the decent, clean wars we have fought in the past. Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.”


I did research this over the years. I can say now, that the Pakistanis threatened to begin the war with a nuclear attack is a fact. It is, truly, the first example of a nuclear blackmail. Did it work? That question is not fully answered yet. The one key witness who was most directly in the picture, Air Chief Marshal S.K. “Polly” Mehra, was the most forthcoming. He confirmed the threat and recounted how he was called by V.P. Singh and nervously asked, in front of Gujral, if he could prevent a Pakistani plane from delivering that “bomb”.

Mehra said no air force could guarantee that. He could reasonably make sure, though, that the intruder wouldn’t go back. But, if such a thing happened, we need to retaliate, he said, and then asked an important question: “If the IAF has to deliver something in retaliation, can we at least see what it looks like? We can then figure out on which platform to put it, and how to deliver it. What are its aerodynamics, and so on.” Mehra said while this conversation was on, he saw Gujral in some sort of a panic, almost sprinting in and out of the room carrying fresh sheets of paper, obviously cables of some kind, and showing them to V.P. Singh.

This much I was able to confirm with V.P. Singh himself, on the record. The implicit, and shocking story is, that if India did have a credible, deliverable deterrent then, its armed forces had not even seen it.


I dont think it was just bluster, Pakis in fact had the F16's ready and were wanting a Hiroshima , Nagasaki type solution from thier point of view. We Indians forget it. We are too short sighted and think they can leave us in peace- they will not. We need to increase our miltary capability that we end the danger to our nation.


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