PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Nov 2014 10:26

The programme has advanced enormously.What further dev. work that can be done has to be based upon the existing architecture and there isn't very much.Therefore,the IAF if it wants the stealth bird would be better advised to buy the single-seater version,2 sqds.,just as we did with the first SU-30s.With Russian aircraft entering service before 2020,we may be able to get our first sqds. operational faster.If we really want a twin-seat version,then we must justify the increased dev. cost with enough numbers.I frankly don't know how many 5th-gen fighters we can afford to operate beyond 120-150,as numbers do matter enormously in the Indian context dealing with both Pak and China. Using FGFA tech to develop our own AMCA may be a positive ,where we can increase the amt. of composites,etc. to suit our own needs,but the contours of the deal have to be thrashed out in detail.If we want a share in the IP rights,then we have to pay the (Russian) piper.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Nov 2014 17:30

We should wait for 3-4 more years, let the PAK-FA programme mature and only then consider buying after a competition with the F-35. Thats the only way we will be getting a fair deal. Today if we sign a check for 6 Billion $(most of which goes to the Ruskies) then what will we do if come 2022 they demand 200 mil $ per fighter?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Nov 2014 18:14

There is a pattern here in the reports coming out of India and Russia. Indian reports complain about a few things that the IAF is unahappy about. The Russian reports are rosy and claim everything is OK. Filed under IMHO: There is a gap between the two (which was not there during the turbulent times for the MKI). This gap needs to be sorted out - at what level remains to be seen (latest Indian reports suggest at Putin-NaMo level, which should have occurred in Brazil).

So,

The programme has advanced enormously.What further dev. work that can be done has to be based upon the existing architecture and there isn't very much.

Is premature.

No one really knows that. Even the Russians (based on open source lit in English) have not talked too much about it. And, what they have is not very reliable.

Talking of reliability - that seems the crux of the complain from the IAF. And, it has been a constant factor.

We need to wait till the Putin-NaMo meeting takes place in a month or so and see what comes out of it. At this point I am confident that NaMo will make the right call.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Nov 2014 18:53

And the new issue that India has to resolve.

I feel for this reason alone India should drop the FGFA.

Will · Post by **Will** » 10 Nov 2014 22:18

Looks like the Russians a stumped. They expected business as usual. They probably thought that as usual India would just give them the money, make some noises about joint development and tech transfer and shutup. No wonder they don't have any answers to the questions posed by the Indian side.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 10 Nov 2014 23:33

We should NOT wait and get as many PAK-FA/FGFA and the earlier the better. Just because USA has better fighter jet, doesn't mean we can rush into wrong decisions. Besides, Indian defense forces need to be as independent as possible so as to tip toe around during war time and litigating/poodling/ during peace time!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Nov 2014 00:35

One more data point:

Russia, China to jointly develop wide-body aircraft

The development of the aircraft can help Russia get around the economic sanctions of the West and can be remodeled into military aircraft, reports the website of China's nationalistic tabloid Global Times, citing a report from Russian state broadcaster the Voice of Russia.

A new world order is being formed.

All old thinking is out.

For no Indian fault, India will have to decide. The needle is moving very, very slowly, but the dots are there to be seen.

#Strategy

Putin's visit will be very interesting.

govardhanks · Post by **govardhanks** » 11 Nov 2014 21:44

http://russianplanes.net/id142188
Recent T50 pic.. I see missiles on wings.. No stealth plane?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Nov 2014 21:58

govardhan wrote:http://russianplanes.net/id142188
Recent T50 pic.. I see missiles on wings.. No stealth plane?

All stealth fighters till date (F-22 and F-35, and the Chinese fighters i assume) have had external stations certified for weapons for the sake of flexibility at times when stealth isn't required.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Nov 2014 08:26

Russia-India aircraft cooperation develops towards joint projects — corporation president

ZHUHAI, November 11. /TASS/. Russian-Indian aircraft cooperation develops towards joint projects, president of Russia’s United Aircraft Building Corporation Mikhail Pogosyan said on Tuesday.

“The projects of a fifth generation fighter jet and a military transport plane reflect our strategy on creating present-day high-tech products in cooperation with our partners,” Pogosyan said.

Under these two programs, a preliminary stage for formulating requirements towards jets and designing its image is completed to start major design works. “Both programs are considered priority for cooperation with India,” he said.

It is rather difficult to determine the completion date. “There are several issues related to the organization of the work, the terms, the cost and technical details. This requires certain time and the corresponding coordination procedure at the level of governments of both countries,” Pogosyan said.

He noted the success of licensed production of the Su-30MKI in India. “In general, the program of licensed production of the aircraft develops successfully,” Pogosyan said.

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Nov 2014 10:04

brar_w wrote:
govardhan wrote:http://russianplanes.net/id142188
Recent T50 pic.. I see missiles on wings.. No stealth plane?
All stealth fighters till date (F-22 and F-35, and the Chinese fighters i assume) have had external stations certified for weapons for the sake of flexibility at times when stealth isn't required.

i suppose they would use missile pylons that can be jettisoned off ?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 13 Nov 2014 06:45

http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2014/11/fgfa ... rable.html

FGFA License Production Preferable, Hints Russian Official?

An official of Russia's UAC, the group that owns Sukhoi, hinted that license production of FGFA maybe a better option for India than co-production. He cited the success of the Su-30MKI program.

UAC's Mikhail Pogosyan told Russian news agency TASS on Tuesday that no timeline could be projected for finalization of the FGFA contract between India and Russia because of differences.

"There are several issues related to the organization of the work, the terms, the cost and technical details. This requires certain time and the corresponding coordination procedure at the level of governments of both countries,” Pogosyan said.

He then referred to the licensed production of the Su-30MKI in India and said, “In general, the program of licensed production of the aircraft develops successfully.”

It could be the translation. Or it could be a hint!.

Anyway, as is the case with Brahmos, labeling FGFA as co-development is a farce. It's unreasonable for India to expect Russia to part with stealth technology for just $5.5 billion. Paying them more would not help either.

What would really help is stepping up funding for the AMCA!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 06:59

Can those quotes be verified.

IF true, I smell a JSF in the room.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Nov 2014 07:08

Or fast tracking AMCA,
India was using FGFA to get an insight into 5th gen tech, via the joint development route.

The JSF option of direct buy will still be an inferior option - 0 learning value.
The russians want something more, money or otherwise. Things will be negotiated.

The russians are terribly bureaucratic, and the sarkari work culture prevails. Need to remember that when talking about defence deals with them.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Nov 2014 07:08

It is rather difficult to determine the completion date. “There are several issues related to the organization of the work, the terms, the cost and technical details. This requires certain time and the corresponding coordination procedure at the level of governments of both countries,” Pogosyan said.

He noted the success of licensed production of the Su-30MKI in India. “In general, the program of licensed production of the aircraft develops successfully,” Pogosyan said.

So Mr. Pogosyan pointed out the difficulties in joint development and noted the (contrasting) success of licensed production. Hmm...

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Nov 2014 07:16

Gagan wrote:Or fast tracking AMCA,
India was using FGFA to get an insight into 5th gen tech, via the joint development route.

The JV ship pretty much sailed when the PAK FA's prototypes took to the air. We're about a decade too late to be involved.

The JSF option of direct buy will still be an inferior option - 0 learning value.

We could still in theory carry out complete local assembly (Italy & Turkey) as well as partial local production (Japan). You'll recall, the first couple of squadrons of MKIs were built mostly from SKD/CKD kits. All the same, it would be more cost effective to get the fighters (whichever one) off-the-shelf and invest heavier capital in the Tejas production and AMCA development.

The russians want something more, money or otherwise. Things will be negotiated.

Question is, what sort of leverage do we have in negotiations with the Russians? Relatively little for a single vendor deal like the PAK FA/FGFA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 07:21

Gagan wrote:Or fast tracking AMCA,
India was using FGFA to get an insight into 5th gen tech, via the joint development route.

I can understand "fast tracking AMCA".

But the next sentence seems oxymoronic. How can you fast track the AMCA if the goal of the FGFA is to get insight into 5th Gen tech?

The JSF option of direct buy will still be an inferior option - 0 learning value.

I am betting that what India can learn from the JSF they will not be able to learn from the PAK-FA. IMHO, there seem to be a number of definitions for a "5th Gen" and the these two planes are not on the same page. Much to the chagrin of the Russians I am sure.

The russians want something more, money or otherwise. Things will be negotiated.

The Boss seems to be saying something else.

The russians are terribly bureaucratic, and the sarkari work culture prevails. Need to remember that when talking about defence deals with them.

The Indians seem to be suspicious about the plane. Forget the work ethics and the like.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 07:23

I think it is time to bail out. $295 mil write off.

Negotiate for an engine for the AMCA in the West and call it a day.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 13 Nov 2014 07:26

NRao wrote:Can those quotes be verified.

IF true, I smell a JSF in the room.

http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/759156

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 07:34

Shaun wrote:
NRao wrote:Can those quotes be verified.

IF true, I smell a JSF in the room.
http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/759156

Serious?

It has the following:

Indian Air Force fighter jet Sukhoi Su-30 MKI

Too much vodka I assume.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 07:36

AND,
the
remarks
made
by
Mr. P

Were
in

China.

That, I must say is very interesting.

I am betting that that is the end of the FGFA.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 13 Nov 2014 07:56

NRao wrote: Too much vodka I assume.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Nov 2014 20:04

i suppose they would use missile pylons that can be jettisoned off ?

The F-22 uses them, the F-35 won't use them initially but they will be brought in at sometime in the future.

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... ttison.jpg

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 22:27

More out of curiosity, WRT the Brahmos JV, can India go on her own and produce the "next Gen" without any dependence on Russia? In the appropriate thread?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Nov 2014 05:00

Wasn't there a recent report out that the contract will be signed in December? Putin visit is going to be really interesting. Interestingly, I don't recall any anticipated big-item deals being signed with the US during Namo's visit. Will it be otherwise when Putin comes calling? Some noises are being made about additional MKIs too, and Talwars. So perhaps a mighty deal for oil?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Nov 2014 05:28

NRao wrote:More out of curiosity, WRT the Brahmos JV, can India go on her own and produce the "next Gen" without any dependence on Russia? In the appropriate thread?

For the Indian LFRJ missile being built, partnership with Russians was put up. Russians politely declined citing MCTR. As a result we have gone ekla chalo on that project. It was covered in one of those interviews conducted by bharat defence kavach.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Nov 2014 06:05

NRao wrote:More out of curiosity, WRT the Brahmos JV, can India go on her own and produce the "next Gen" without any dependence on Russia? In the appropriate thread?
For the Indian LFRJ missile being built, partnership with Russians was put up. Russians politely declined citing MCTR. As a result we have gone ekla chalo on that project. It was covered in one of those interviews conducted by bharat defence kavach.

Sorry, does not answer my question.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Nov 2014 18:55

NRao wrote:
For the Indian LFRJ missile being built, partnership with Russians was put up. Russians politely declined citing MCTR. As a result we have gone ekla chalo on that project. It was covered in one of those interviews conducted by bharat defence kavach.
Sorry, does not answer my question.

The LFRJ is being built on the foundation of Brahmos.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Nov 2014 06:30

India is thick with Russia, no two ways about it, and so long as US policy towards it continues as it has traditionally - no foresight, little dependability and an expectation of complete subservience to its worldview, I doubt there is going to be any strategic change. Not that there isn't promise, but the promise will take time to unfold. In the meantime, expect no strategic shifts when Putin comes, to the contrary, we may see a strengthening of the bear hug. In any case, these ups and downs are typical, we had heard negative things about Vikaditya too, and the 29Ks and at one point even the MKI, but ultimately it seems to have panned out. Increasingly things are improving - the bad taste left by the 90s when it comes to Russian hardware perhaps continues, but not so sharply. Mig-29Ks, MKI, Brahmos, Akula, Arihant etc., are promising examples. As Saurav Jha mentioned, there is collaboration with the Russians in over 200 products. The Pakfa is unlikely to be different, whether it is a JV type setup or more of an MKI (deep license) thing.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Nov 2014 07:43

This has to count for something!!

No?

On the comment about a possibility of completing a MKI kind of deal - the thinking is not even close. The MKI was an Indian idea, not a Russian one. The IAf was the one that had the idea. With the FGFA it is just the other way around, if we are to believe the open sources - the IAF is flying blind.

I think Mr. P is getting desperate. This latest one is the lowest as it can get.

I still think India should cancel any further MKI orders, give up on any MLUs other than the few they are thinking of - no Su-30 MKI Super or whatever that is and just get vanilla PAK-FA from Russia to make up the numbers.

No time to look at relationships and the like. Just get it done.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Nov 2014 08:08

No Raosaheb, the sky is not falling just yet. We will see how it goes. In terms of Su-30 MLUs, sooner or later these will be needed, we are pretty much on the verge. My guess is that IAF is just waiting for the Pakfa radar complex to be completed and we will probably see the same (or something very similar) on the MKI Super 30 . Ultimately, Pakfa technologies, be it via a JV or otherwise, will be found on the MKI (that I believe is the IAF plan) and this might delay the MLU a bit, but it is a matter of when, not if. Ditto with the Pakfa/FGFA itself - doubt there is any going back. And really doubt if the IAF is not interested in the bird. Perhaps they are not so excited about the way the FGFA deal is progressing, but I don't doubt that they will jump on some version of it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Nov 2014 11:54

Wokay back to the topic

PAK FA aircraft to have latest missiles

http://in.rbth.com/news/2014/11/14/pak_ ... 39765.html

The Tactical Missiles Corporation (TRV) is concluding tests on the Kh-58USHK missile designed to equip the PAK FA, also known as the 5th generation fighter or the T-50.

“This is absolutely the newest product that has nothing in common with the old X-58, apart from the index: it is half the size of the X-58, and it is equipped with a completely different homing,” TRV Chief Executive Boris Obnosov told TASS. “We are completing the state tests for it just now, and this includes test launches of the T-50 experimental aircrafts.”

He added that the PAK FA “is the only Russian platform, equipped with an anti-radar missile with an internal fuselage placement.” However, it can be mounted on the external hard points, according to Obnosov.

The corporation also continues to work successfully on the X-74m2 – another new missile, “designed to equip the T-50 fighter in the first stage,” he said. “The PAK FA will have completely new weapons” Obnosov added. “Here, we are only presenting some of our new rockets.”

First published in Russian by VPK News.
inShare

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Nov 2014 23:21

Take Off Magazine ( nov 2014 )

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to30.pdf

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Nov 2014 01:21

Cain Marko wrote:No Raosaheb, the sky is not falling just yet.

You think so?

Just check out the Take Off mag posted above.

Russia dependent on China for funds (across the board) and willing to "Phazotron-NIIR ready to offer active phased-array radar cooperation to Chinese partners". China seems to be buying Russia.

And, Russia seems to be comfortable with that.

I am not blaming Russia for doing what they are doing - they are taking care of business, good for them.

*But*, this has to impact Indian decision. No two ways about that. I am not saying which way India should go, all I am saying is that the past (with Russia or the US/west) does not count any more.

This think about "thick" with ....................... or the 7th fleet steaming into the BoB .......................... Well, pack those thoughts for the next few years. My belief is that we on BR are in for some huge surprises - that based on data points.

#Strategy

We will see how it goes. In terms of Su-30 MLUs, sooner or later these will be needed, we are pretty much on the verge. My guess is that IAF is just waiting for the Pakfa radar complex to be completed and we will probably see the same (or something very similar) on the MKI Super 30 . Ultimately, Pakfa technologies, be it via a JV or otherwise, will be found on the MKI (that I believe is the IAF plan) and this might delay the MLU a bit, but it is a matter of when, not if. Ditto with the Pakfa/FGFA itself - doubt there is any going back. And really doubt if the IAF is not interested in the bird. Perhaps they are not so excited about the way the FGFA deal is progressing, but I don't doubt that they will jump on some version of it.

The Russian relation - as far as I am concerned - has to be viewed *only* in terms of keeping IAF numbers up. That is it. No problems there. The PAK-FA (NOT the FGFA) will help the IAF (again, that is an assumption I am making, because there is body of news out there that tells a different story)

But, if the idea is gaining knowledge about designing, etc. I disagree. That window - IMVVVVHO - has closed. Russia does not have the latest and greatest to support indian requirements.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Nov 2014 11:58

Airshow China 2014: PAK-FA's new anti-radiation missile set for 2015 series production

Image: http://www.janes.com/images/assets/773/ ... 568578.jpg

The Tactical Missiles Corporation (TMC) company is completing official trials of the Kh-58UShK anti-radiation missile intended to be fired from the internal weapons bay of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, general director Boris Obnosov told IHS Jane's at Airshow China 2014.

"It is an absolutely innovative item, having nothing common with the old X-58 missile except the similarity in designation. It is 0.5 m shorter than the Kh-58 and equipped with a new seeker. We are finishing the official trials of the new missiles, including launches from the T-50 prototypes," Obnosov said, adding that it could also be mounted on the external weapons carriage of the MiG-35, Su-30MK, Su-34, and Su-35 fighters.

The old Kh-58 missile could be equipped with one of a selection of four passive seekers, designed to target radars working at the different frequency ranges. The new Kh-58UShK missile has an innovative broadband passive radar seeker that allows it to target modern ground-based radars working at frequency ranges between 1.2 GHz and 11 GHz.

The new missile weighs 650 kg with a warhead weight of 149 kg, is 4.19 m long, has a wingspan of 0.8 m, and a diameter of 0.38 m. The Kh-58UShK's maximum speed is 4,200 km/h and it can be launched at aircraft speeds of Mach 0.47-1.5. It can also be launched at altitudes between 20-20,000 m, providing a maximum range varying between 76-245 km. The minimum range is 10-12 km, this at a launch height of 200 m. The Kh-58UShK has an 80% probability of striking within 20 m of the target emmiter.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Nov 2014 12:07

with more rusi-china corporation in various fields , how safe is PAK-FA/FGFA project

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Nov 2014 12:25

Very.

The fact that India has not put up any option in that class speaks for itself.

Though I am sure we will be offered the F-22 Raptor as the FGFA gets to fruition

.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Nov 2014 12:52

krishnan wrote:with more rusi-china corporation in various fields , how safe is PAK-FA/FGFA project

Rusi-China cooperation didnt happen yesterday and its been there since early 90's , So if MOD in past two decades thought this was something of major concern we wouldnt have seen so many common system operating between the two countries.

The key system differentiators between two similar platforms are its electronics , EW , ESM weapons etc , even if Base platform is the same these systems would make a huge difference between similar base platforms eg MKI and MKK.

Most system we buy these days including non-Russian ones are custom built to Indian specification.

As long as FGFA has systems that unique to India and is not exported without India's consent to third country it would be fine for us.

There are MKI systems that are exported which are Indian made but its happened with approval of India to friendly countries.

With JV for FGFA the control over such system would be far greater and contribution from Indian side much wider as compared to MKI program.

There are even talks of FGFA export to 3rd countries along Brahmos line if GOI approves it.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 20 Nov 2014 17:30

I am skeptical of seeing FGFA become a reality and we may end up buying PAK-FA lock-stock-and-barrel.

If, as of today, the Russians are unwilling to share any details, how can we expect them to share those with us in future to build FGFA?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Nov 2014 19:01

What is a "FGFA", to consider it a reality or a failure?

As an example, is India willing to accept the engine being proposed for the PAK-FA?

Seems to me a "FGFA" can easily be produced, but the definitive "FGFA" would be a huge challenge.

The other observation I have is that neither the MKI nor the Brahmos experience will count for too much. This looks to be a "fresh" effort, with its own compulsions. Which is how it should be.

Putin's visit in two weeks would be very interesting, especially from the topic of "defense". Here is an observation from an author in India:

Perhaps Russia failed to see it coming and alter its defense sales program suitably and rapidly enough to keep India in good humor. Moreover, India was increasingly spoilt for choice as newer defense partners emerged while the existing ones like the United States, Israel and France went from strength to strength.

So much so, in fact, that Russia has recently been nudged aside from its #1 position in defense exports to India by the US.

This was unthinkable a decade ago, but today it is a stark reality. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s pet project, the “Make in India” marketing campaign, is another concerted move aimed at greater indigenization that will inevitably make things more difficult for the Russian defense industry.

But now finally the two strategic partners have begun to adjust to new realities and deepen their bilateral cooperation in newer areas, in such non-defense areas as agriculture, food processing, hydrocarbons, coking coal, fertilizers, mining, civil aviation, infrastructure and rough diamonds.

First time I have read something along those lines.

There was talk about the MMRCA team advising the Russians not to enter the MMRCA competition. Perhaps that set the trend as far as defense leaning goes. ?????

Outside of smaller projects we could expect a major shift in defense related leanings.