PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9256
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 26 Nov 2014 10:34

@ Victor, people high up including none other than the ACC (Air Combat Command) Boss (The point man for Tactical fighter in the USAF) has come out and said that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22, and it needs to be given that it would be IOC'ing nearly 11 years after the F-22 IOC'd (as a comparison the B-2 IOC'd 12 years after the F117).

The main point of the F-35 is to develop information gathering (Big data for aerial combat), processing, situational awareness and fast computing and club that into a VLO airframe and with the performance requirements that are pretty much ahead of or equal to the best qualities (in relevant scenarios) of the f-16 and F-18. So you will see that in realistic loads its sustained turning and hot rod acceleration would be largely similar to the F-16 (thats where the f-16 shines amongst its peer group) while its low speed high AOA stuff is similar or superior to the F-18's (thats where it shines compared to other western multi-role fighters). It has more sensor inputs, better computing, 3 times the software of the F-22A and has the ability to distribute data in real time across platforms with the new waveforms. It also has an avionics and sensor suite that uniquely supports WVR combat where the F-22 kind off falls off largely due to a lack of off boresight cuing and a DAS like sensor.

The F-35 is an offensive weapon if you want to take the war to the opposition. Its a very good CAS, SEAD, DEAD platform and in air to air, can leverage its networking, SA, stealth and electronic warfare capabilities to patrol the skies. The F-22, uses its radar and speed/alititude combination to pick off fighters from high above trading a lot for affordability (2 engines, 70K thrust - high speed requirements) and range (speed even without AB's reduces range). The F-35 is a perfectly good Air to Air platform unlike what many think, its just that much like the F-16, its CONOPS in the Air to Air domain would be different than the F-22's for obvious reasons. Each platform leverages its own strengths to do what it is supposed to. So back to the PAKFA, if you have bought it as a top end cover for your fighter fleet, much like the F-22 is to the USAF, then the F-35 really adds nothing to that mission since it would not do air-superiority in that manner (horses for courses). F-35 will be the primary Air to Air asset for the majority of the operators including forces like JAPAN, USN, SOKO, RAAF, RN, and much of the USAF, but it would not operate in the same manner as the F-22 would, so if that is the way the IAF wishes to use its 5th generation fighter then the PAKFA is the only option in that category. The F-35 would be used in the "swing role" way much like the Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, F-16 etc.

The verdict is still out as to what the final PAKFA will look like, capabilities it possesses and what sort of timelines are realistically possible. We still have an engine in development (again mixed signals whether the current engine is the one the IAF will get as POGO has said something that other media reports contradict), folks still claim that its STEALTH isn't fully added yet and that the design would evolve to better cover all the aspect of the aircraft. yet others claim that they have intentionally traded off stealth for other considerations. What sort of finish, etc is on the final serial produced jets and what sort of reliability in the systems and sub-systems is possible. We also do not know the size and scope of the integration and software development program so in reality the final product that the IAF gets is not completely known to us to try to gauge what sort of timelines are realistically possible with what capability and what design changes compared to the prototypes flying atm. The Russians sure know how to build very capable fighters, but the timelines are what would really matter for both the IAF and the RuAF that has not sent the PAFKA out into serial production while the F-22 went into serial production around a dozen years ago if not more (i think more). The reason I speak of timelines is not so much for the F-22 or the F-35 (thats russia's problem vis-a-vis NATO) but because the Chinese are rapidly fielding advanced SAM's, S-300's, HQ-9 and as per some reports have recently finalized the purchase of the S400 which they would surely copy. They are also investing in large radars covering most frequency domains. The timelines for PAKFA introduction would have to be compared to the A2AD buildup of the chinese to see how much of the PAKFA they can deny given that it is likely to be a SOLE stealth platform for the IAF for the offensive/penetrative missions for quite a while until other projects are developed. The J-21/J31 are lesser threats from that point of view since its much easier and cheaper to develop IADS then 5th generation fighters.


The newspaper "Vedomosti" November 26, 2014 published an article by Alexei Nikolsky "signed a contract to supply China with Russian anti-aircraft missile systems S-400", which reports that Russia has signed a contract with China for the supply of anti-aircraft missile systems, long-range S-400 "Triumph", negotiating the sale of which there were a few years.

Manager of one of the Russian enterprises of the military-industrial complex and a person close to the leadership of the Russian Defense Ministry, told "Vedomosti" that at the beginning of this autumn a contract was signed between "Rosoboronexport" and the Ministry of National Defense to supply at least six divisions anti-missile system C-400 in the amount of more than $ 3 billion. The representative of "Rosoboronexport" was yesterday unavailable for the press representative Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" (developer of the C-400) declined to comment.

Negotiations on the supply of S-400 in China has been going on for several years, while in 2011, leadership of the Russian military department stated that the delivery system for export may be no earlier than 2016 - because of the need to implement a program for the supply of the Russian Armed Forces. In the spring of 2014 the newspaper "Kommersant" reported that President Vladimir Putin has approved the delivery of S-400 in China, and in July the head of the Russian presidential administration Sergei Ivanov said that the first foreign customer of this system can be precisely China.

At various times reported interest in the long-range air defense system on the part of Saudi Arabia, but the talks were suspended. On his desire to purchase such a system represents and the Department of Defense of Belarus, marketing system was conducted in Libya. C-400 was also involved, but to no avail, in the tender for the purchase of anti-aircraft missile systems armed forces of Turkey, the first in this tender victory of the Chinese anti-aircraft missile system HQ-9, made "based on" the Russian S-300PMU-2. Later, in the autumn of 2013, Turkey abolished the results of the tender under the pressure of its partners in the North Atlantic Alliance.

Anti-aircraft missile system S-400 is designed using experience in developing anti-aircraft missile systems, long-range C-300P, one of the main buyers in foreign countries which was also People's Liberation Army. Last contract for the purchase of 15 battalions of antiaircraft missile systems S-300PMU-2 was carried out "Rosoboronexport" in 2010

Long-range systems such as the S-300P exported after the collapse of the Soviet Union and Vietnam, Algeria, Azerbaijan and Cyprus (currently set Cypriots systems are in the armed forces of Greece) and in the presence of the Russian Armed Forces - in Kazakhstan and Belarus. The contract for the supply of S-300 to Iran was canceled for political reasons in 2010, and execution of the contract for the supply of S-300 to Syria suspended due to the civil war in this country. In Venezuela and Egypt were delivered than the S-300P systems such as S-300B, originally developed not for the defense forces of the country, and for the defense of the Ground Forces.

Despite the fact that over the past 15 years, the Chinese defense industry sharply raised its level remained segments where it has not yet been able to prove their worth, the director of the Center for Strategic conditions Ivan Konovalov. According to him, most likely this latest system, along with other modern weapons systems will be placed by the Chinese army in the south of the country in order to control the airspace over Taiwan and the disputed islands in the surrounding waters.
Last edited by brar_w on 26 Nov 2014 11:49, edited 5 times in total.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Victor » 26 Nov 2014 10:39

^ Yes, in time there is no doubt that F-35 will take over the F-22's job but the time is not yet obviously.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9256
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 26 Nov 2014 10:52

Its not going to take over it, but it will do what it does best. The AEF (Air expeditionary force) will have a mix of F-22's and F-35's with the latter dominating. They have just started developing a synergistic relationship on how best to use the assets. The plan was to have the F-22 upgraded over the years so that it wound up with a lot of the stuff of the F-35. As of now only the F-22's Radar has switched over to the APg-81 generation T/R modules and the L band comms are in the work but other then that the main mission computers have not changed. The F-22 will continue to execute its air superiority mission much like the F-15C's, and there is a ton of stuff the F-35's will do (the kind of stuff 90% of the USAF does, and that includes Air to Air). Ultimately it would be the F-X that replaces the F-22. I believe that the F-22 is the last of "its kind" of fighter for the west. Its simply not worth it to have one trick ponies from a cost aspect especially when development goes into decades.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 26 Nov 2014 12:48

brar_w wrote:<SNIP>.


@brar_w - If your reply to a post/poster on this (or any other military thread) contains substantial amount of data points/analysis relating to F-35/F-22 - like couple of preceding posts - please make the replies in thread dedicated to F-35.

A single post on F-35/F-22 tends to create a chain of discussion which beats the purpose of the thread. And actual information, news, analysis about the core-topic is lost in tangential content.

This goes to others as well.

Please follow this rule henceforth.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby abhik » 26 Nov 2014 13:41

If one were to choose 2 out of LCA, Rafale and the PAK-FA/FGFA, the obvious choice would be the LCA and the PAK-FA(not FGFA). The LCA is indigenous, cost-effective and available today; and the PAK-FA is a next gen stealth fighter. The Rafale on the other hand is expensive, and as per the MRCA contract they will be mostly delivered in the 2020's(when all western, and possibly chinese and Russian, other than the Gripen will be out of production). Today we are currently have only one fighter acquisition programme ie the MKI (with the LCA just starting now). LCA, Rafale and the PAK-FA/FGFA programmes will be running concurrently (for at least 5-7 years) which I don't see how we can afford.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 26 Nov 2014 15:59

http://vpk.name/news/121897_myi_gotovyi ... olleg.html

Pass from China to India. Recently Vladimir Putin's meeting with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi became aware that our countries agreed to actively pursue joint development of fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). In this case, all the sensitive points regarding the increase in the share of participation of Indians in the project have been settled. As will now develop this cooperation?

- We do not have with Indian counterparts some disagreement about the stakes. Today we envisage that as part of this project, the parties will be fifty-fifty. The division of work due to contractual obligations. FGFA program is well advanced in the framework of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental agreement and the contract for this project. The first stage has already been completed, we are now preparing for the detailed design.

During the implementation of the program raises some questions, all this takes time and appropriate procedures for coordination at the level of the two governments.

Speaking of cooperation with India, it is important to realize that we are forming unique in world aviation parity long-term cooperation program with reference to specific products. This unprecedented technological cooperation projects that reflect our strategy to gain a leading position in the world market in all key segments of the aircraft.

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2006
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ldev » 27 Nov 2014 06:41

Can’t keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia

Ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, India has told Russia to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to seal the futuristic project by next year........


....."Russia has now been told that India cannot wait for a decade to get the FGFA. The delivery schedules should be compressed instead of IAF waiting for the FGFA till 2024-2025. The Russians will probably respond during Putin's visit," a defence ministry source said on Monday....

......As was first reported by TOI, India is already upset with Russia for not giving its experts "full technological access" to the FGFA project despite being an equal funding partner. The final design contract, which is yet to be inked after missing the mid-2012 deadline, envisages the two countries chipping in with $5.5 billion each towards designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 27 Nov 2014 07:01

ldev wrote: Can’t keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia...

....."Russia has now been told that India cannot wait for a decade to get the FGFA. The delivery schedules should be compressed instead of IAF waiting for the FGFA till 2024-2025. The Russians will probably respond during Putin's visit," a defence ministry source said on Monday....

......As was first reported by TOI, India is already upset with Russia for not giving its experts "full technological access" to the FGFA project despite being an equal funding partner. The final design contract, which is yet to be inked after missing the mid-2012 deadline, envisages the two countries chipping in with $5.5 billion each towards designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing.


Jeez! I mean what is Putin going to say? OK, you're right we'll speed it up"

This is another Viky x 10. The Russians just don't have the supply chain and the manufacturing process is a nightmare with leaky buckets to the manufacturing plant.


The FAK/PA is going to be ready in 2030 just as the 6G fighters and anti-6G defenses are up and ready.

Like the Rafale, another huge waste of money that makes us less secure.

What's the strategic objective of the PKA/FA/FAK/PA ? to gain air superiority over PRC ? Forget it. The Russians will have already sold sold the inner workings to PRC.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Victor » 27 Nov 2014 07:30

^ Air superiority over Chinese at the moment can be achieved by the Rafale and Sukhoi. I'm thinking probably also the Bison. The stuff they have now is *junk* which is why they are buying Su-35 from Russia. They know how their planes stack up. The super-duper "5 gen" fighters they are showing off won't be ready for prime time for another 10 years if they are lucky with engines. The Chinese know that they need to "hide" their "top secret" fighters in order to get some credibility and be taken seriously, so we see idiotic photos that are intentionally blurred and taken from behind bushes. Are we to believe that their "secret" sites are so porous that any bumpkin can come and take photos? This alone gives their game away IMO and makes them look like schmucks.

kmc_chacko
BRFite
Posts: 326
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 10:10
Location: Shivamogga, Karnataka

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby kmc_chacko » 27 Nov 2014 08:19

why don't we scrap FGFA project and concentrate on AMCA project ?

As of now we can join PAKFA project and learn and discuss about ToT and build it in India. ToT will help us in developing AMCA & Advanced LCA projects.

It is better to invest in local than in Russia. Just look at Russians utilized our funds for Su-30s development, now they are making money out of it. We paid for AC and they are enjoying it. I prefer Govt. to invest in India rather than buying from outside. Atleast we can encourage our own defense sector, in near future it might give us rich dividends. We cannot depend on any one. Nobody can assure us that France & Russia will not sell Rafael or PAKFA or its technologies to PRC. we should look into our security first later friendship.



vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby vishvak » 27 Nov 2014 21:55

Russia to begin work on Gen 6 fighter technologies.
Just that such technologies could to add to PAK-FA/FGFA project.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 08 Dec 2014 02:46

On Putin visit eve, India, Russia to hold talks on delayed FGFA aircraft project

New Delhi: Ahead of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to India this week, the two countries will hold talks on Tuesday to iron out differences on the much delayed joint multi-billion dollar Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project.

Defence sources said the talks between Indian and Russian officials here are being held as both the countries are keen to go ahead with the FGFA. Putin is scheduled to arrive in New Delhi the next day.

However, there are issues on which both sides have not arrived at a consensus.

The sources said that it is "unlikely" that the contract would be signed during Putin's visit.

"There are issues that exist. Talks were held earlier too but nothing concrete has emerged so far," the sources said, adding another round of talks will be held on December 9.

Currently, the final design and research and development contracts are under negotiations between the two countries.

The preliminary design agreement on FGFA had been signed in 2010 between HAL and Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau to build the jet for use by both countries.

But the final R&D contract, which was to be signed by 2012, is still to be finalised. The contract would pave the way for prototype development and flight testing.

Though India is investing 50 per cent of the cost of the multi-billion dollar programme, its work share in the research and development and other aspects of the programme has come down to around 13 per cent, something which Indian officials are not happy about.

Sources said this will impact India's indigenous capabilities to develop such an advanced fighter aircraft. They also said that there are issues related to other aspects of the plane too.

The FGFA project is based on the Russian Air Force's Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA platform. The Indian version will be tweaked to add some more advanced features. The total programme is expected to cost India about USD 25-30 billion.

IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha recently acknowledged that some issues regarding Indian work-share in the programme need to be resolved.

The FGFA is a long-term acquisition that would take at least eight years from the signing of the contract.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Dec 2014 03:30

vishvak wrote:Russia to begin work on Gen 6 fighter technologies.
Just that such technologies could to add to PAK-FA/FGFA project.


I'm working on 7th gen fighter technology in my garage. It will have a dramatic impact on 5-6 gen a/c. Send money (preferably lots of it). I will give you work share, complete ToT. Guaranteed.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2014 03:36

^you will be surprised that there million babooze who will fall flat for you.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Dec 2014 05:23

SaiK wrote:^you will be surprised that there million babooze who will fall flat for you.


email/mobile addresses/numbers will make a huge difference in my product/market fit. Please send them. I promise a share for you if you will send me your bank account number so that I can verify your bona fides.

If you trust me enough, please also send along your UID/PWD. Any and all profits wil go to needy orphans and widows in country of your choosing.

May God bless you.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2014 07:08

sure... we will exchange credit cards as well! :) you scratch me, i will scratch you. we shall bless each other.

btw, we sure are not having generation gap. :rotfl:

seriously, lets us list out the capabilities that we want from pakfa. putin is enclosing make in india plan much smarter than anyone can think off.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby vishvak » 08 Dec 2014 15:49

I have more 'belief'/'faith' in Russia defining, working and getting results on 7th Gen tech than finding 'proof' of weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) in Iraq as announced by George the son Bush. That region has about 10 million refugees now on their own lands.

From what I read, some coalition troops in Iraq have exhibited a habit of collecting paycheques and of dumping weapons and running when terrorists of any type ( moderate, IS, etc etc) attack. But even that doesn't make me demand proof or refer to the president of an entire country by first name for the kicks only.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 08 Dec 2014 18:21

India, Russia to hold talks on FGFA project

NEW DELHI (PTI): Ahead of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to India this week, the two countries will hold talks in New Delhi on Tuesday to iron out differences on the much delayed joint multi-billion dollar Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project.

Defence sources said the talks between Indian and Russian officials are being held as both the countries are keen to go ahead with the FGFA.

Putin is scheduled to arrive in New Delhi the next day, on Dec. 10.

However, there are issues on which both sides have not arrived at a consensus.

The sources said that it is "unlikely" that the contract would be signed during Putin's visit.

"There are issues that exist. Talks were held earlier too but nothing concrete has emerged so far," the sources said, adding another round of talks will be held on December 9.

Currently, the final design, research and development contracts are under negotiations between the two countries.

The preliminary design agreement on FGFA had been signed in 2010 between HAL and Russia's Sukhoi Design Bureau to build the advanced stealth jet for use by both countries.

But the final R&D contract, which was to be signed by 2012, is still to be finalised. The contract would pave the way for prototype development and flight testing.

Though India is investing 50 per cent of the cost in the multi-billion dollar project, its work share in the research and development and other aspects of the programme has come down to around 13 per cent, something which Indian officials are not happy about.

Sources said this will impact India's indigenous capabilities to develop such an advanced fighter aircraft.

They also said that there are issues related to other aspects of the plane too.

The FGFA project is based on the Russian Air Force's Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA platform. The Indian version will be tweaked to add some more advanced features. The total programme is expected to cost India about USD 25-30 billion.

IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha recently acknowledged that some issues regarding Indian work-share in the programme need to be resolved.

The FGFA is a long-term acquisition that would take at least eight years from the signing of the contract.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Dec 2014 10:18

Despite Putin’s visit, two pacts on military aircraft still in doldrums

President Vladimir Putin may have come and gone but stalemate largely persists over two key long-pending India-Russian defence projects, the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and military multirole transport aircraft (MTA).

The intergovernmental agreements for co-development and co-production of FGFA and MTA were inked way back in 2007. But the two projects are yet to fly out of the doldrums, with India's concerns over technical, cost and delivery issues still to be addressed, said sources.

India is very keen on the FGFA project, and even asked Russia in the run-up to Putin's visit here to resolve the technical issues and "compress" the slated induction beginning from 2024-2025 onwards, as was first reported by TOI.

The deadlock over the MTA, which were initially envisaged to gradually replace IAF's ageing fleet of the medium-lift AN-32 aircraft, seems to be much more serious. India now wants to ascertain the cost viability of the twin-engine transport aircraft in comparison to similar planes available in the market.

There are also questions about the MTA's "predicted timelines for delivery" as well as its failure to meet the high-altitude requirements, which need to be answered before India even thinks of inking the full-scale contract for the project, said sources.

The final R&D and design contract for FGFA, in turn, is hanging fire for the last three years. India wants iron-clad assurances on the advanced stealth jet's technical aspects before it sinks in $5.5 billion for the development of its "perspective multirole fighter", which is to be based on the underdevelopment Russian FGFA called PAK-FA or Sukhoi T-50.

The 127 such single-seat fighters, to be built at the Ozar facility of Hindustan Aeronautics in Nashik, will cost extra. In all, India will spend around $25 billion on the entire project, making it the biggest-ever defence project with Russia.

Unhappy at not getting "full technological access to the Russian FGFA", India wants the capabilities of its fighter in terms of stealth, engine performance, sensors and weapons — in additions to costs — to be fully specified in the final design contract. "Moreover, we want to begin inducting the fighter much before the 94-month timeframe specified in the draft contract," said a source.

"Putin is likely to go back and ask his people to sort out the issues. If the problems are resolved, it will still take another four-five months for the final design contract to be inked," he added.

India is keen to begin inducting its FGFA much before 2024-2025 since IAF is down to just 34 fighter squadrons when at least 44 are required. The other two fighter programmes, the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft and the proposed $20 billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale jets, are also running years behind schedule.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby vishvak » 13 Dec 2014 19:32

Better to sort out issues about FGFA tech ToT outside public glare and media scrutiny probably. There is not much news about Putin's visit in the first place, however there are reports about deals that are still being straightened out, of course with push on ToT. If I am not mistaken, the deal to purchase C-17s was through similar govt-to-govt FMS program since there was not much competition to requirements, let alone any chatter of ToT et all.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2014 01:28

Dec 16, 2014 :: India, Russia Take Small Steps on Fighter Deal

India and Russia have agreed to settle their differences over the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program, which the countries are co-producing. But a source in the Indian Defence Ministry said irritants remain following the summit-level talks here Dec. 11.

The issue came up during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the source said, adding that a final agreement will likely emerge in the “near future.” During the summit talks, Putin offered light utility helicopters to be manufactured in India, the MoD official added.

“I am pleased that Russia has offered to fully manufacture in India one of its most advanced helicopters,” Modi said in an official statement. “It includes the possibility of exports from India. It can be used for both military and civilian use. We will follow up on this quickly.”

The MoD source said the Russians have offered to manufacture in India the Ka-226, a small twin-engine helicopter, designed by Kamov. India has an immediate requirement of 440 light utility helicopters needed to replace the aging Cheetah and Chetak helicopters.

In August, the Modi government canceled the 2008 global tender for purchase of 197 light utility helicopters and decided to build these helicopters in India.

On FGFA, the MoD source said that in addition to the unsettled issue of work share in production of the aircraft, the Russians have talked of an increase in cost of developing and producing the aircraft, adding further to the stalemate.

While an initial agreement to jointly produce the FGFA was signed in 2010, the final agreement, which will help release $5.5 billion as India’s share toward the development of the FGFA, awaits signing. India wants a larger work share in the production of the aircraft.

“While India is investing 50 percent of the cost of the multi-billion-dollar program, its work share in the research and development and other aspects of the program has come down to around 18 percent, something which Indian officials are not happy about. Moscow will have to alleviate New Delhi’s concerns and discomfort over the work share,” said Indrani Talukdar, research fellow at the Indian Council of World Affairs.

A Russian diplomat, however, said Moscow has agreed to increase India’s work share from 18 to 25 percent, and even up to 40 to 50 percent in the near future, in view of the steady development of the Indian aviation industry.

“The inking of big ticket weapons projects during Indo-Russian summits in the past is now replaced with joint statements and promises which shows that defense ties between India and Russia have come to a plateau,” said defense analyst Nitin Mehta.

A joint statement issued at the end of the summit talks did not refer to any futuristic defense projects by name.

“Defense cooperation between India and Russia is founded on deep mutual trust and promotes wider peace and security,” the statement said. “The two countries have already moved to a phase of joint design and development of defense systems. The sides recognize the virtually unlimited opportunities for enhancing this cooperation, increasingly based on joint research and development, joint manufacturing, technology sharing and collaborative research in futuristic technologies, in accordance with existing agreements on military-technical cooperation.”

While the US, Israel and Europe have competed with Russia in the past decade to tap the $100 billion weapons market here, Russia has signed major joint development defense projects with India

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby srai » 17 Dec 2014 07:27

NRao wrote:Dec 16, 2014 :: India, Russia Take Small Steps on Fighter Deal

...

On FGFA, the MoD source said that in addition to the unsettled issue of work share in production of the aircraft, the Russians have talked of an increase in cost of developing and producing the aircraft, adding further to the stalemate.

While an initial agreement to jointly produce the FGFA was signed in 2010, the final agreement, which will help release $5.5 billion as India’s share toward the development of the FGFA, awaits signing. India wants a larger work share in the production of the aircraft.

“While India is investing 50 percent of the cost of the multi-billion-dollar program, its work share in the research and development and other aspects of the program has come down to around 18 percent, something which Indian officials are not happy about. Moscow will have to alleviate New Delhi’s concerns and discomfort over the work share,” said Indrani Talukdar, research fellow at the Indian Council of World Affairs.

A Russian diplomat, however, said Moscow has agreed to increase India’s work share from 18 to 25 percent, and even up to 40 to 50 percent in the near future, in view of the steady development of the Indian aviation industry.

...


Given the current state of Russian economy, one can expect delays in the PAK-FA R&D effort without the infusion of $5.5 billion from India. IMO, India should go for 2-seater FGFA variant and get at least 30% re-design R&D work share.

The other aspect of this deal would be to have a production work-share arrangement that would equal close to 50-50% similar to the European model. For example, India manufactures left-wing, left tail-fin, rear fuselage (or front fuselage), various engine parts along with customised Indian LRUs, computers and other avionics. Russia manufactures the remaining and its version of LRUs. Raw materials are sourced from both countries and both have final assembly lines that uses SKDs sourced from both countries.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2014 08:37

Russia’s air force to receive 55 fifth generation stealth fighters by 2020

By 2020, a total of 55 fighters of the fifth generation are expected to be supplied to the Russian Air Force,” he told the Ekho Moskvy radio station. In his words, the army would receive first such aircraft in 2016.

member_26622
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby member_26622 » 17 Dec 2014 11:31

^ 55 fighters @ guess-estimated 100 million will be 5.5 billion $. Not sure if Russia will be willing to spend their own money on this costly acquisition given recent economic development - unless we fund it of course.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 17 Dec 2014 15:54

They dont have to spend USD they would just spend roubles since they are not importing it

The rate of production of T-50 will be 13-14 aircraft per year

http://vpk.name/news/123249_temp_proizvodstva_t50_sostavit_1314_samoletov_v_god.html

According to the deputy head of the directorate of military aircraft programs of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Vladislav Goncharenko, air force Russia to 2020, ie four years from the date of delivery of the first production cars will receive 55 fighter T-50 PAK FA. The first production delivery PAK FA in troops planned in 2016. Thus, the rate of production of the T-50 will be 13-14 aircraft per year. For comparison, the peak production of American F-22 "Raptor" was 24 aircraft (in 2007), the 100th F-22 was made at the 5th year from the date of delivery of the first production aircraft.

"Until 2020 is expected to supply 55 aircraft of this type," - he said on the radio station "Echo of Moscow".

"Who built up prototypes are tested, the state tests. This work is progressing according to schedule," - said Goncharenko.

PAK FA - Russia's fifth-generation multirole fighter developed by a division of the KLA - the Sukhoi Design Bureau, where it passes under the designation T-50. Total production is the manufacture and on KnAAZe - eight T-50, five of them are ready and fly.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby abhik » 17 Dec 2014 17:26

If we go for the PAKFA then we can get it in almost the e timeframe as the Rafale is supposed to come.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2014 18:05

nik wrote:^ 55 fighters @ guess-estimated 100 million will be 5.5 billion $. Not sure if Russia will be willing to spend their own money on this costly acquisition given recent economic development - unless we fund it of course.


The general consensus seems to be that Russia will have to print a lot of money and that the oil prices should somewhat recover within the year. So, funding 55 planes does not seem to be a back breaker.

Two items I would be concerned about:

1) The number of PAK-FA on order seems rather low. ????? Is this a reflection of their economy (prior to the slump in oil prices)? And,
2) The PAK-FA - as we know it - cannot be the end of the line. So funds to sustain and next-step within the aero community (Sukhoi?)

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9256
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 17 Dec 2014 19:16

55 aircraft even at 200 million a pop is short change when spread out over 5-6 years, even given the slowdown of their economy. What is more fascinating coming out of that is their ramp rates. Clearly it would be a long time before the RuAF actually has hundreds of 5th generation aircraft in operation. I think they won't even reach F-22A levels (something they always mention when talking about the PAKFA) until the middle of the next deacade if not later so the Su-35 acquisition actually makes a lot of sense for them. One would assume that they would target an eventual production rate between 20 and 30 units to realize economies of scale, and if for nothing else to carry out some of the fleet replacement and modernization tasks. Their fleet modernization would also absorb a lot of cash for weapons and training. Unlike the West (to the best of my knowledge) active Russian Air Force units do not have a lot of R-77's, which i do not think they mass produced for internal consumption. So they would require quite a lot of investment in providing what ever is in their pipeline for a2a and a2g weapons to the front lines which would add to their modernization costs and would be seen critical to the overall modernization plans. The russian 5th generation acquisition timeline and rates would be very interesting to compare to the same for Europe. Europe should have about the same number of F-35's by 2020 iirc.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby vishvak » 17 Dec 2014 20:12

Russia and India are the only ones funding PAK-FA/FGFA which is why this question arises in the first place. Russia, however, has advantage of making maximum of in house skills.

member_26622
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby member_26622 » 17 Dec 2014 22:56

^ Here is how the economics work out - not aiming to be 100% perfect

Step 1. Buy 5 billion $ worth of PAKFA
Step 2. Pay by printing more Roubles
Step 3. This leads to additional money supply in the system which results in increased inflation
Step 4. Using interest rate parity, higher inflation means Rouble exchange rate worsens with $ and other currency
Step 5. This puts additional pressure on FOREX reserves and increases borrowing cost, draining more $ - a downward spiral which can be fixed only by austerity measures i.e. spend less

This logic typically flows well except for US $, as China and rest of the world suck up the excess $ supply keeping US inflation down.

Now, a 5 or 10 billion $ spend is not big by any means but every bit counts when you need oil to be at 80 $ to break-even but it is at 60$ today. Also, Putin knows first hand the USSR collapsed because of runaway defense expenditure even-though it was making everything locally (simplified a whole lot) and he will not repeat this mistake. I hope so at least for Russian people sake.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 19 Dec 2014 18:35


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 19 Dec 2014 21:21


Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21054
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Dec 2014 14:16

Full report Austin's link.
http://www.janes.com/article/47115/russ ... as-by-2020
Russia plans to receive 55 PAK-FAs by 2020

Nikolai Novichkov, Moscow - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

18 December 2014
The Russian Air Force plans to have received 55 Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter aircraft by 2020. Source: PA Photos

The Russian Air Force (VVS) will have received 55 Sukhoi PAK-FA (T-50) fighter aircraft by 2020, according to Vladislav Goncharenko, the deputy director of the United Aircraft Corporation's (UAC's) combat aircraft department.

The first PAK-FA deliveries are scheduled for 2016.

"The number of prototypes is increasing; the state trial programme is being conducted as per schedule," Goncharenko told Echo of Moscow Radio on 16 December.

Five PAK-FAs have been produced and three more are now being constructed at the Sukhoi Aviation Holding Company Y.A.Gagarin in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (KnAAZ).

Goncharenko said new surveillance and combat unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) ordered by the Russian Ministry of Defence (MoD) will also be supplied by 2018.

UAC is conducted far-reaching activities in this area, he added.

"We are working on UAVs, and some vehicles in flyaway condition have been made: not only reconnaissance UAVs, which allow [forces] to conduct surveillance on the battlefield but, first of all, heavy combat and reconnaissance systems based on unmanned aerial vehicles," he said.

Russia's MoD has signed a contract with UAC to conduct design work on the tactical military transport aircraft (MTA) Il-112V, he added.

"This year we have signed the contract to conduct design work on the tactical MTA Il-112V. The launch of the aircraft is scheduled for 2018," he said.

The Il-112V is intended to replace the ageing An-24 ('Coke') and An-26 ('Curl"). With a payload of about 6 tonnes, the aircraft will be able to transport military personnel, light vehicles, and armaments.

In late 2013 Deputy Defence Minister Yury Borisov announced that the State Defence Order (Gozoboronzakaz/GOZ) for 2014 included RUB7.9 billion (USD120 million) for finishing Il-112V design works. According to the actual armaments procurement programme, 62 Il-112Vs are to replace the ageing An-26s.

Under the GOZ, UAC plans to produce and supply to the Russian armed forces 105 aircraft. "There is a dead certainty that GOZ-2014 will be realised in full," said Goncharenko. "GOZ-2015 exceeds even these numbers and involves more than 105 aircraft."

In 2011, 19 aircraft were delivered and each year since the number of supplied planes has doubled. In 2013 UAC delivered to the Russian armed forces 68 combat and training aircraft and one MTA.

"This year we plan to supply approximately 100 combat, MTA, and special aircraft. We have already accomplished 80% of the delivery schedule," he added.

UAC has also launched long-range aviation (LRA) and military transport aircraft modernisation programmes. According to the terms of contracts with Tupolev, work on Tu-22M3 ('Backfire C'), Tu-95MS ('Bear H'), and Tu-160 ('Blackjack') upgrades has started. "We have upgraded 10 LRA aircraft pursuant to our 2014 plans," said Goncharenko.

The most sensitive elements and airborne avionics systems of the bombers are to be replaced during the modernisation programme, which will also provide the ability to deploy new air-to-surface weapons.

In transport aviation, Goncharenko said the Il-76 'Candid' to Il-76MDM modernisation programme has been launched.

"Now we are conducting design works that are to be finished in 2016. In 2017 the existing Il-76 upgrade programme will be launched," he said.

The Il-76MDM will be equipped with fully upgraded aircraft avionics.

"The contract to provide 39 Il-76MD-90A until 2020 is also signed with the Russian MoD. The first aircraft will be supplied to the Russian armed forces this year," added Goncharenko.

Related articles:
•Russia launches Il-76MDM upgrade programme
•NATO extends enhanced Baltic air policing until end of 2015 at least

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9869
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 22 Dec 2014 16:13

Russia may be out of deep problems much earlier than we presume. I do not expect the Khan and his gang to be hostile to Russia for long if they have any sense. But we can never expect sensible conduct from Khan and his munnas.

Hostile Khan will force the Russia to arm themselves to the teeth. All round purchases of Arms etc and jolly good times. Hope F22 line starts again. :D

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9256
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 22 Dec 2014 19:39

^^ By 2020, early built F-22's would have surpassed 65-70% of their designed air-frame life. The Aircraft would have been in service for 15 years. It makes little sense to re-visit a production process for a program that competed in the early 1990's despite of it having performance that is enviable. You have to make-use of the advances made in aerospace, propulsion and capability between 1990 and 2020 (30 years).

member_20292
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2059
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby member_20292 » 23 Dec 2014 00:04

brar_w wrote:55 aircraft even at 200 million a pop is short change when spread out over 5-6 years, even given the slowdown of their economy. What is more fascinating coming out of that is their ramp rates. Clearly it would be a long time before the RuAF actually has hundreds of 5th generation aircraft in operation. I think they won't even reach F-22A levels (something they always mention when talking about the PAKFA) until the middle of the next deacade if not later so the Su-35 acquisition actually makes a lot of sense for them. One would assume that they would target an eventual production rate between 20 and 30 units to realize economies of scale, and if for nothing else to carry out some of the fleet replacement and modernization tasks. Their fleet modernization would also absorb a lot of cash for weapons and training. Unlike the West (to the best of my knowledge) active Russian Air Force units do not have a lot of R-77's, which i do not think they mass produced for internal consumption. So they would require quite a lot of investment in providing what ever is in their pipeline for a2a and a2g weapons to the front lines which would add to their modernization costs and would be seen critical to the overall modernization plans. The russian 5th generation acquisition timeline and rates would be very interesting to compare to the same for Europe. Europe should have about the same number of F-35's by 2020 iirc.


seems that the t 5o is another rafale in cost.

the f 35 seems more attractive by the day. GoI are you listening?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21054
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 23 Dec 2014 17:27

Latest reports say that the two sides have agreed to sort out issues asap.The moot point is that HAL cannot meet the 50% design share as it does not possess the capability,still struggling with the LCA,wheereas the FGFA is a 5th-gen stealth fighter. A compromise appears to be on the cards.My guess is that we will pick up a few sqds. of the basic version and then see if we really want a two-seater later on,which will reduce stealth further and cost a whole lot more.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1177
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shaun » 23 Dec 2014 20:47

^^^
with due respect Sir ,The moot point of yours is, HAL can not be worthy design partner as it is still struggling with LCA !! Now that you have come up with such a moot point ,will you make us mango public understand the logic behind your "moot point"??? are you privy to the design aspects of FGFA , how much have been completed and how much needed to be completed ?? and what are the capabilities that HAL lack wrt FGFA as design partner ??

MERRY X-MAS TO ALL OF YOU.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 76 guests