PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Feb 2016 10:24

Very complicated indeed.What will the IAF do if they are dissatisfied with these options? Sometimes it's good to be humble and not bite off more than we can chew and have a fair measure of insurance.The little Gnat served us well. Why a modest stealth version of the LCA can be started immediately which will cost us hugely less than the omnipotent FGFA,which can come when it comes.The LCA-S would replace the Mk-2 which doesn't look like it's going to appear at all.An LCA-S would also cost far less than a full-fledged AMCA,which hasn't even been rolled out in prototype form,and if started asap could be flying/trials as early as 2020.This programme could even be done in parallel with the Ru JV ,"slippin' into the slipstream" of the stealth aerospace dev. if you catch my drift.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 15:07

After Manohar Parrikar's push, India & Russia revive talks on fifth generation fighter programme

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Senior officials have told ET that the joint development model is now on track with Parrikar backing the development and production of the fighter as part of the Make in India initiative. Objections that had been raised by the air force - with one senior officer even terming the fighter as a 'third generation' combat aircraft - are likely to be addressed with a collaborative development approach.

"The qualitative requirements for the fighter have been drawn up by the air force and those will be met with the joint development project. The ministry is keen to carry forward the project and not just buy some fighters off the shelf as was suggested by certain quarters," an official involved in the process told ET

While the final commercial aspects - the investments to be made by either side as well as the work share agreement - are likely to be concluded within the next few months, the deciding factor on going ahead will be the availability of funds with the air force to take on the project.

The air force budget has been strained with a series of high value acquisitions and ongoing payments for upgrades and transport aircraft and the addition of the Rafale fighter deal - expected to cost over Rs 60,000 - could leave its spending power limited over the next 2-3 years.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2016 19:56

India Looking At 60 FGFAs As Russia Reduces Price, Final Talks On

NEW DELHI, FEB. 3, 2016: India and Russia are in final negotiations in New Delhi to settle the contributions for the development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) at a reported $3.7 billion from both sides, Arming India has learnt from diplomatic sources. An early conclusion of the agreement is expected.

Development costs are to be paid in seven years, starting with an initial payment of $1 billion. The breakthrough follows a price reduction by Russia last month.

India's contribution for development costs would entitle it to extensive transfer of technology and include delivery of three prototypes. Subsequently, the entire lot of FGFAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF) are intended to be made at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's 'Russia complex' in Nasik, Maharashtra.

The cost of each series production FGFA is initially pegged at a whopping $225 million apiece, which is about two-and-a-half times the estimated current price of the Su-30MKI, currently India's frontline fighter.

Sources disclosed that a reluctant IAF has finally been made to come around on the FGFA. But it has reduced its requirement to just 60 fighters, or three squadrons. This is being interpreted as a lack of enthusiasm for the proposed fighter, which is yet to prove true fifth generation capability.

The initial numbers were pegged around 220, which were later brought down to 120, and now have dwindled to half of even the reduced numbers.

Indeed, the Russian Air Force itself has committed itself to just 12 of these proposed aircraft, known in Russia as PAK-FA. These 12 aircraft will comprise a trial squadron.

But Russia is hopeful of persuading India to eventually commit to far more than the initial lot of 60 FGFAs.

India will have no major contribution to design and development, and the project is being re-modeled on the Su-30MKI lines, wherein India substantially paid for the development cost, paving the way for assembly line production in India under transfer of technology.

The initial concept of India having a substantial work share in the design and development of the fifth generation fighter in order to boost indigenous capability has been abandoned.

The rapid headway on the under-development FGFA is in stark contrast to the stalemate in price negotiations on the curtailed order for 36 flyaway French Rafale fighters, which are reportedly stalled at a level of over $11 billion, according to top Indian Defense Ministry sources.

The FGFA will very significantly enable Russia's military industrial complex to extend its pre-eminence in India by ensuring a follow-on to the Su-30MKI production line.

Informed observers see this as a shot in the arm for the Russia, which they reckon could impact immediately on French and American interests. A renewal of commitment to Russian aircraft will limit the number of Rafale fighters for India, and also reduce the possibility for Americans to sell a fighter aircraft to India.

Boeing Company Chairman James McNerney in October 2015 announcing in New Delhi that his company was ready to set up a manufacturing facility for its F/A-18 fighters, which also have a naval variant, in India.

Lockheed Martin leadership too had in the second half of 2015 made a pitch for selling its F-16 fighters to India, while Swedish Saab made a counter offer to make its Gripen NG fighters.

The two American aircraft manufacturers and the Swedish firm were competitors in the 2007 Indian tender for 126 medium multi role combat aircraft, which was won by French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighters. The only close competitor to Rafale was the then Cassidian's Eurofighter Typhoon, which is part of the Airbus Group. Only Eurofighter Typhoon campaign, led by the Germans, has openly stated that it is all over for it in India for the Air Force's need for a combat plane.

Significantly, the latest development in the FGFA talks between Russia and India also signals that the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will continue to be Russia's major partner in India, and its engagement with emerging Indian private sector in defense production will be marginal.

Just a month ago, Russia rejected the possibility of trying out an alliance with the private sector Reliance Defence on the production of 200 Ka-226T light utility helicopters for the Indian armed forces by opting for HAL to be the production agency in India

Well, back to "forcing HAL to import more CKD/SKD PAKFAs". So, my thinking is down the hole.

Looks like a PMO deal. Reluctantly agreed to by the MoD. And, minimally accepted by the IAF (and by the RuAF too).

expensive proposition. But PMO needs reactors.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Feb 2016 20:57

8 billion for 36 Rafales and compare that with 225m per pakfa. [does this include package what rafale package cost includes?]

we have to really ditch one.. rafale seems to be the bad choice now. what is the mission critical need for both rafale and paka?.. something rafale is willing to ToT that pakfa has not?

I can agree no nation will ToT-away things.. but no nation will also chew us for screw-drivers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2016 21:38

I see both nations selling reactors and for each fix for the reactors make India buy a squadron. Indian economy will be tied to keeping alive their aerospace MICs.

The only way out is for India to invest in India - which, ....................................

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2016 04:49

Progress reported on Indian version of Sukhoi T-50

India and Russia have agreed on a cost reduction for the FGFA (Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft). Negotiations on co-development of an Indian version of the Sukhoi T-50 (Russian acronym PAKFA) had previously stalled, especially concerning the cost of substituting Indian content on the stealth fighter. But according to recent reports in the Russian media, progress was made during the visit to Moscow by Indian Prime Minister Narendra last December, although no announcement was made.

Each of the partners will invest $4 billion over the next seven years, including $2 billion each in the first year and the rest evenly distributed over the six years that follow. The total cost of development is now put at $10 billion, compared with $12 billion previously cited. The balance of $2 billion still required would be recouped from export sales, it is now reported.

United Aircraft (UAC) and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would be the industrial partners, with HAL having a workshare of at least 25 percent, and Bharat Electronics also playing a significant role. In similar fashion to the licensed production of the Su-30MKI for the Indian air force, the Indian companies will manage the replacement of Russian avionics, including mission and navigation computers; display and management systems; and self-protection systems. The result will be a considerably different aircraft from the PAKFA, and will effectively be the export version.

The Indian air force is seeking to procure 250 FGFAs. Earlier Indian sources estimated the unit production cost at $100 million, similar to that of the Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the acceptance process for the PAKFA has taken one year so far, preceded by five years of flight trials. The Russian air force expects to receive its first aircraft next year, and to have 55 in service by 2020. Initial production aircraft will be powered by a pair of NPO Saturn/UMPO AL-41F1 turbofans (also known as “Item 117”). They will later be replaced by more powerful, reliable and efficient “Item 30” engines now in development by an industrial group supervised by the United Engine Corporation (Russian acronym ODK).

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Feb 2016 05:13

Kartik wrote:United Aircraft (UAC) and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would be the industrial partners, with HAL having a workshare of at least 25 percent, and Bharat Electronics also playing a significant role. In similar fashion to the licensed production of the Su-30MKI for the Indian air force, the Indian companies will manage the replacement of Russian avionics, including mission and navigation computers; display and management systems; and self-protection systems. The result will be a considerably different aircraft from the PAKFA, and will effectively be the export version.

Sounds like an MKI-type variant to me.

Meanwhile, the acceptance process for the PAKFA has taken one year so far, preceded by five years of flight trials. The Russian air force expects to receive its first aircraft next year, and to have 55 in service by 2020.

Information's a little out of date. Only 12 PAK FAs to be delivered by 2020. 50 Su-35s ordered instead.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Feb 2016 07:29

sounds like a new compilation

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2016 07:47

^^^^^

Very old vid. The Prez of SU got fired. That old.

I think the key would be to allow Indian pilots to fly the current T-50. And, even perhaps allow Indian sci to check it out.

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 12 Feb 2016 22:17

Zynda wrote:
maxratul wrote: 4. BY all available information (or lack thereof) the assumption is that the AMCA is still on the drawing board - priority is still getting the LCA right
Correction saar. AMCA work is underway albeit progress is very very slow, at least at NAL.

Is NAL working on AMCA or ADA ?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Feb 2016 22:25

So what is 3.7 billion or 4 billion for? If we are still going to be paying 100 million per plane, what are we paying the above money for?

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 12 Feb 2016 23:00

''''

That 4 billion I think is for both

A. The payment for expense already incurred in pakfa

B payment for further customization and testing etc

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Feb 2016 00:04

1) $295 million spent on Preliminary Design "which spelt out the fighter's detailed configuration, was completed in June 2013"

I am assuming that the "detailed configuration" is diff than what is on the flying models of the T-50s. ???? Thus tthe need for the $3.7 billion

2) $3.7 billion for R&D: $1 billion in the 1st year and $0.5 billion per year for six years.

To produce 3 prototypes, at least one within 3 years. Will be tested in India.

India is expected to get details on thinking behind and processes pertaining to design, research & development, associated inputs and techs, manufacturing, supply chain, etc. I recall reading somewhere that this lower cost does NOT actually involve Indian participation in R&D, but it WOULD include the knowledge behind the R&D and certainly the results. India will get all the associated techs.

This cost has to cover some of the Russian costs too (which is OK).

3) $100 mil per plane

To manufacture over time. Numbers vary from 60 to 250. So, no idea what this cost actually represents. IF for 60, the 250 would be much less. On the other hand IF for 250 (or some such large number), then for 60 it has got to be much higher.

#1 is done. Higgle haggling on #2. #3 is TBD

In year 3 they should have spent $2 billion. And, it would not account for the engine. Would IAF decide to stick to the current one or would chase the new and untested one? ?????

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Feb 2016 01:29

Harin, NAL and ADA work together.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Feb 2016 04:28

They give us three prototypes for free and we give them an order of 100 planes for 9-10 billion. Forget all the R&D with ruskies. They don't really want a partner, just a buyer.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Feb 2016 04:35

Cybaru wrote:They give us three prototypes for free and we give them an order of 100 planes for 9-10 billion. Forget all the R&D with ruskies. They don't really want a partner, just a buyer.

Actually in practice, once the support costs, customization and weapons are factored in $10 bn will only buy us about 40 odd jets. ($100 mil is only the flyaway cost.)

That said, it doesn't make reimbursing the Russians for their R&D expenditure any less stupid.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Feb 2016 06:05

I wonder if the fgfa will also = naval version of pakfa. Su 33 and 30mki look pretty similar, no?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Feb 2016 13:08

I doubt that a desi FGFA based upon the T-50 would differ from the general config of the current prototypes flying.I think that bus left the station long ago.Extra composites,avionics,EW,radar,weaponry,etc will be the key differences,apart from a better engine than what the prototypes are flying with. Just installing a more powerful engine on the LCA MK-2 had our boffins estimating 3-4 years of extra dev/testing before any production. You can imagine the timeframe IST for a heavily tweaked twin-seat FGFA by HAL/ADA. The crucial date is when the IAF want the stealth FGFA to enter service. One will have to work backwards from that date and fix the schedule and work entailed.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Feb 2016 15:47

No twin seat FGFA. Too expensive. However, that would require a total redesign. A much larger wing. The current T-50 will not do.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 14 Feb 2016 12:18

I agree that the current contract sounds like not much of a redesign for FGFA.

I highly doubt the twin-seater variant with all the planned changes coming to fruition on a $4B investment over 7 years. More like a change of some electronics and avionics plus integration with some India-specific missiles like Astra.

Russians will say with extra development money that the design can be better improved to allay some concerns reported over the design from the Indian side. Who can say for sure though, as new supercruise engines have yet to materialize.

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 16 Feb 2016 11:04

I don't think it's about reactors but I think it's about access to uranium and plutonium

Which will be given only if we buy reactors in a packaged deal

Which again will come with defence products - overpriced

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 16 Feb 2016 18:13

Harin wrote:I don't think it's about reactors but I think it's about access to uranium and plutonium

Which will be given only if we buy reactors in a packaged deal

Which again will come with defence products - overpriced

There are already agreements now with Canada, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Australia, etc. to provide Uranium. And these are not just empty agreements. Uranium has come.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -and-india

Plutonium won't be gotten from Russia. At best a reprocessing agreement to extract Plutonium from spent nuclear fuel with Japan can be signed in the future.

The two areas where Russia might try to package deal the PakFA are with the S-400 air defense system and design help for the new nuclear attack submarines. Those are the only real areas where Russia still has major leverage over India.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Feb 2016 18:35

My proposals for negotiating with Russia:-

Tie up deal for additional nuclear reactors 2-8 (around USD 10-20 Billion deal) with help on SSNs, SSBNs, Nuclear reprocessing, Fast Breeder Reactors, nuclear fuel stockpiling etc

Tie up deal for additional 40-100 SU-30MKI with right to manufacture spare parts in India and to upgrade them in India.

Tie up the deal of MRTA and IL-76 upgrade with collaboration on PD-14 engines

Tie up FGFA deal with right to manufacture aircraft in India with deep ToT from Indian Raw Material, ToT on Engines and AESA

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Feb 2016 18:38

Hopefully this time around the core EW system comes directly from Russia and is not an Israeli or Indian system shoehorned into a platform, not designed for it.

Kartik wrote:Progress reported on Indian version of Sukhoi T-50

India and Russia have agreed on a cost reduction for the FGFA (Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft). Negotiations on co-development of an Indian version of the Sukhoi T-50 (Russian acronym PAKFA) had previously stalled, especially concerning the cost of substituting Indian content on the stealth fighter. But according to recent reports in the Russian media, progress was made during the visit to Moscow by Indian Prime Minister Narendra last December, although no announcement was made.

Each of the partners will invest $4 billion over the next seven years, including $2 billion each in the first year and the rest evenly distributed over the six years that follow. The total cost of development is now put at $10 billion, compared with $12 billion previously cited. The balance of $2 billion still required would be recouped from export sales, it is now reported.

United Aircraft (UAC) and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would be the industrial partners, with HAL having a workshare of at least 25 percent, and Bharat Electronics also playing a significant role. In similar fashion to the licensed production of the Su-30MKI for the Indian air force, the Indian companies will manage the replacement of Russian avionics, including mission and navigation computers; display and management systems; and self-protection systems. The result will be a considerably different aircraft from the PAKFA, and will effectively be the export version.

The Indian air force is seeking to procure 250 FGFAs. Earlier Indian sources estimated the unit production cost at $100 million, similar to that of the Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the acceptance process for the PAKFA has taken one year so far, preceded by five years of flight trials. The Russian air force expects to receive its first aircraft next year, and to have 55 in service by 2020. Initial production aircraft will be powered by a pair of NPO Saturn/UMPO AL-41F1 turbofans (also known as “Item 117”). They will later be replaced by more powerful, reliable and efficient “Item 30” engines now in development by an industrial group supervised by the United Engine Corporation (Russian acronym ODK).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Feb 2016 19:10

Who can say for sure though, as new supercruise engines have yet to materialize.

THE problem, and understandably so, with Russia is funds.

It is not just "FGFA", they have recently offered to co-develop the engine for the FGFA. Read: Funds (again understandably). While India has opted to get US help for an engine and Russian help for the TVC for the same engine - at least that is the game plan.

On reactors, what exactly will/can India do with "Uranium"? Does India have sufficient reactors to produce enough energy if India were to get as much uranium as needed? I do not know the answer to that, but suggesting "uranium" implies India has enough reactors, but not enough uranium.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2016 19:58

we have to invest in our own capabilities for stealth and turbines. we should not and must not depend on firang help. they will not and none will

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 17 Feb 2016 00:48

Chakra.in wrote:
Harin wrote:I don't think it's about reactors but I think it's about access to uranium and plutonium

Which will be given only if we buy reactors in a packaged deal

Which again will come with defence products - overpriced
There are already agreements now with Canada, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Australia, etc. to provide Uranium. And these are not just empty agreements. Uranium has come.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -and-india

Plutonium won't be gotten from Russia. At best a reprocessing agreement to extract Plutonium from spent nuclear fuel with Japan can be signed in the future.

The two areas where Russia might try to package deal the PakFA are with the S-400 air defense system and design help for the new nuclear attack submarines. Those are the only real areas where Russia still has major leverage over India.

India wants Russia to supply upto 20/nuke reactors as per reports from Putin visit to India in 2014 November s

Russia has still not agreed or there are no further news on it

@gyan

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 17 Feb 2016 00:52

NRao wrote:
Who can say for sure though, as new supercruise engines have yet to materialize.
THE problem, and understandably so, with Russia is funds.

It is not just "FGFA", they have recently offered to co-develop the engine for the FGFA. Read: Funds (again understandably). While India has opted to get US help for an engine and Russian help for the TVC for the same engine - at least that is the game plan.

On reactors, what exactly will/can India do with "Uranium"? Does India have sufficient reactors to produce enough energy if India were to get as much uranium as needed? I do not know the answer to that, but suggesting "uranium" implies India has enough reactors, but not enough uranium.

Uranium and reactors both are needed to take forward India's thorium reactors dream/ plan

Not only that but

As you know India has limited production of uranium

Now foreign uranium is needed so that it can be used in peacefully - power generating purposes and domestic uranium can be utilized in nukensubs or nuke bombs

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2016 03:32

They need to work on Super-30 in the same contract. All the new sensors, weapons, upgrades need to come from the same kitty of 4 billion dollars. It doesn't make sense for us to go about funding another round of improvements just for Su-30 again. They need to make sure that Super-30 is same as Pakfa-mki in sensor suite after upgrade where possible. Stealth and possibly more sensor fusion needs to be the only differentiator in Pakfa.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2016 03:40

The FGFA is expected to replace the Su-30 MKI. At least that is my understanding.

The early Su-30 MKIs should be up for recyclers in 14 or so years. Not too much time left. And, I very much doubt there will be enough time to incorporate FGFA techs into late delivered Super Su-30 MKIs. The "Super" must have been designed and to some extent at least tested. Adding anything in 5-6 years would mean doing it all over again.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2016 03:54

They will get another life extension like the migs have. They will serve 35-40 years. IAF will f**k up all acceptance and induction of some new indigenous platform, so it will need to be extended anyways!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2016 04:17

You are a THE beacon of hope.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2016 04:43

Totally!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2016 05:20

So from all the news it seems the following:

1. The current version is just a exploratory prototype
2. There is 8 billion dollars required in R&D budget for the next iteration of PAKFA.
3. New plane with Al-41F will be developed and Item 30 will replace it.
4. 11 prototypes will be developed. 8 for Russia and 3 for IAF
5. India will pay for its portion of electronics separate from the 4 billion dollars.
6. Flyaway cost will be $100million a plane.

What does the 4 billion get us other than 3 prototypes? If there is no PAKFA without Indian money, then does contributing to it without any benefits of IP ownership makes any sense? Why is IAF insisting on outright purchase versus joint R&D workshare? What gives?

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 21 Feb 2016 20:52

http://www.janes.com/article/58166/sing ... -qualities

Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis - PAK-FA's Asian export hopes stymied by lack of 'fifth-generation' qualities
Reuben F Johnson, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 February 2016

The presence of the US Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor at the 2016 Singapore Airshow, and statements from the company about future demand in Asia for more F-35 models to be procured have highlighted the interest in the region for fifth-generation combat aircraft.

A number of air forces have a programme to acquire a fifth-generation fighter, but what qualifies an aircraft to carry that label is a "matter of perspective," a US industry representative told IHS Jane's .

Russian industry has consistently referred to the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA as a fifth-generation aircraft, but a careful look at the programme reveals that this is an 'in-name-only' designation. What qualifies a fighter aircraft as being a next-generation design is more than just having a stealthy-looking shape, said Lockheed Martin representatives.

Previously, Russian defence think-tanks had been projecting that the T-50 would be purchased by Asian nations that were already operating some model of the Sukhoi Su-27/30 'Flanker'-series. This would include Indonesia, Malaysia, and Vietnam. China, another major operator of Sukhoi aircraft is developing its own next-generation aircraft in the Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang FC-31.

Russian specialists familiar with the T-50 programme state that the aircraft will have trouble gaining traction in the Asian market as the on-board systems offer very little fifth-generation technologies despite what is projected to be a considerably higher price tag than the latest Su-35 'Flanker-E', ordered by China and Indonesia.

Both the T-50's NIIP Irbis radar and the NPO Saturn 117S engine that are two of the major subsystems of the T-50 are the same as those installed in the Su-35. Also, a number of the avionics on-board the T-50 and Su-35 are common. Those that will be part of the production-configuration of the T-50 will more likely than not be only incremental or evolutionary improvements over their analogues on-board the Su-35, say the same specialists.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 22 Feb 2016 12:55

^ Russian avionics have always been known to be behind their Western counterparts, and the plan was always to replace many of them with Israeli, French, and Indian systems. So not much of a problem there.

Engines are a much bigger issue. Russians continue to insist that Item-30 is 'coming', but until they materialize the FGFA contract will be on hold. Supercruise not possible without new engines.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Feb 2016 13:18

MANNY K wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/58166/sing ... -qualities

Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis - PAK-FA's Asian export hopes stymied by lack of 'fifth-generation' qualities
Reuben F Johnson, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 February 2016

The presence of the US Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor at the 2016 Singapore Airshow, and statements from the company about future demand in Asia for more F-35 models to be procured have highlighted the interest in the region for fifth-generation combat aircraft.

A number of air forces have a programme to acquire a fifth-generation fighter, but what qualifies an aircraft to carry that label is a "matter of perspective," a US industry representative told IHS Jane's .

Russian industry has consistently referred to the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA as a fifth-generation aircraft, but a careful look at the programme reveals that this is an 'in-name-only' designation. What qualifies a fighter aircraft as being a next-generation design is more than just having a stealthy-looking shape, said Lockheed Martin representatives.

Previously, Russian defence think-tanks had been projecting that the T-50 would be purchased by Asian nations that were already operating some model of the Sukhoi Su-27/30 'Flanker'-series. This would include Indonesia, Malaysia, and Vietnam. China, another major operator of Sukhoi aircraft is developing its own next-generation aircraft in the Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang FC-31.

Russian specialists familiar with the T-50 programme state that the aircraft will have trouble gaining traction in the Asian market as the on-board systems offer very little fifth-generation technologies despite what is projected to be a considerably higher price tag than the latest Su-35 'Flanker-E', ordered by China and Indonesia.

Both the T-50's NIIP Irbis radar and the NPO Saturn 117S engine that are two of the major subsystems of the T-50 are the same as those installed in the Su-35. Also, a number of the avionics on-board the T-50 and Su-35 are common. Those that will be part of the production-configuration of the T-50 will more likely than not be only incremental or evolutionary improvements over their analogues on-board the Su-35, say the same specialists.

Crappy and paid write up by Janes they got the engine and radar wrong to start with

Source of Inspiration

What qualifies a fighter aircraft as being a next-generation design is more than just having a stealthy-looking shape, said Lockheed Martin representatives.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 23 Feb 2016 00:10

Some new photos of latest prototypes. The blue and pink on the wing edges might be evidence of RAM application or new composites testing. Engines also appear more covered than earlier prototypes.

2017 will bring 2 T-50-11 prototypes, which will be very close to the initial Limited Serial Production of PakFA for Russian induction (minimum of 12 by 2020). Going by some rumors it may be that 1 of the T-50-11 prototypes in 2017 might be going to India. It would explain the new push by MoD and HAL for negotiations along with the newer, cheaper contract. However, this means buying into the PakFA before the new supercruise-capable engines, izdeliye 30 , are ready and certified. Instead, India is just taking Russia's word that new engines will be finished by 2019-20 as a 'drop-in' replacement.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Feb 2016 00:16

2017 will bring 2 T-50-11 prototypes, which will be very close to the initial Limited Serial Production of PakFA for Russian induction (minimum of 12 by 2020). Going by some rumors it may be that 1 of the T-50-11 prototypes in 2017 might be going to India. It would explain the new push by MoD and HAL for negotiations along with the newer, cheaper contract. However, this means buying into the PakFA before the new supercruise-capable engines, izdeliye 30 , are ready and certified. Instead, India is just taking Russia's word that new engines will be finished by 2019-20 as a 'drop-in' replacement.

What rumors? IF they are true, then it is worse than what we think it to be. The $4 billion R&D was expected to produce 3 prototypes, starting 3 years from now, at one per year. No? Has that changed to send a prototype - one not associated with the R&D and India pays $4 billion?

Also, I was under the impression that the RuAF was supposed to get a bunch starting this year.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Feb 2016 00:19

MANNY K wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/58166/sing ... -qualities

Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis - PAK-FA's Asian export hopes stymied by lack of 'fifth-generation' qualities
Reuben F Johnson, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 February 2016

.........................................

Nothing new there.

In line with what the IAF has stated thus far and the reduced numbers supposedly ordered by the RuAF.

As far as I can tell the FGFA is a PMO push, much like the Rafale. Let us see what happens with the FGFA. I cannot see both the Rafale and the FGFA die. But one never knows.