PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Austin »

New Second Stage Id 30 Engine Seen on the Left Side , new TVC Nozzle with Saw Tooth can be seen on 052 Test platform for the engine

Image
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Prem »

https://sputniknews.com/military/201805 ... ive-su-57/
( Spootnicking )

US Analyst Describes Six Most Impressive Aspects of Russia’s Su-57
US defense journalist Tyler Rogoway illustrated six points about Russia’s “misunderstood” Su-57 that people may not know."To some degree the T-50/Su-57 is a misunderstood aircraft," Rogoway wrote Monday.First, the plane has side-mounted active electronically scanned array X-band radars, while similar planes feature this add-on on its nose. The radar enhances the Su-57 fighter's situational awareness while allowing it execute specialized aerial maneuvers such as ‘beaming' "better than nearly other fighter around," according to an article published in The War Zone Monday.The Su-57 has "turrets that fire modulated laser beams at an incoming missile's seeker to blind it and throw it off course," the War Zone added.The aircraft also features advanced 101KS ‘Atoll' infrared search and track sensors above the nose to allow the pilot to better detect and engage hostile aircraft.Like its Russian aircraft predecessors, the Su-57 is well-suited for taking off and landing from rugged airfields.The engines on the plane are capable of 3D thrust vectoring. Introducing thrust vectoring with workable engines has proven difficult for Chinese engineers, who have yet to field indigenous thrust-vectoring engines onto the J-20.Finally, the internal weapons bay appears to hold between four and six medium-range air-to-air missiles, or perhaps a smaller number of larger-payload guided bombs. But that may not be the only location for internal weapons storage. "Maybe a specialized missile with a smaller diameter profile is intended for those bays sometime in the future," Rogoway wrote of the possible missile extra internal weapons bays near the wing roots.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Singha »

The wavy saw tooth thing is seen in some civilian cfm56 engines on some models of 737
I read it reduces noise
Dont know any impact on rcs or thermal sig
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by tsarkar »

ShauryaT wrote:@TSarkar: I agree in general, we should not use Indian money for foreign companies to build/mature their wares, but is there another time and risk mitigation option to the PAK-FA minus ceding strategic space or downgrading of our capabilities vs the PLAAF?
Responded in Chinese military thread.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by JayS »

Singha wrote:The wavy saw tooth thing is seen in some civilian cfm56 engines on some models of 737
I read it reduces noise
Dont know any impact on rcs or thermal sig
The one in Civil jet are call Chevrons. They are to reduce jet noise.

F35 has similar things on the exhaust nozzle. They are suppose to reduce IR signature. Now PAKFA has them too.

My educated guess is that both work on the same principle - by enhancing mixing of jet shear layer.
hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4635
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by hnair »

Austin wrote:New Second Stage Id 30 Engine Seen on the Left Side , new TVC Nozzle with Saw Tooth can be seen on 052 Test platform for the engine

https://scontent-arn2-1.cdninstagram.co ... 1888_n.jpg
Wow. From this angle and ambient lighting, such beautiful lines on this bird. Reminds me of the graceful curves on a B1-B. Pity the other aspects of this program is lagging
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2937
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by darshhan »

hnair wrote:
Austin wrote:New Second Stage Id 30 Engine Seen on the Left Side , new TVC Nozzle with Saw Tooth can be seen on 052 Test platform for the engine

https://scontent-arn2-1.cdninstagram.co ... 1888_n.jpg
Wow. From this angle and ambient lighting, such beautiful lines on this bird. Reminds me of the graceful curves on a B1-B. Pity the other aspects of this program is lagging
Now if only it was stealthy enough.....
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Au Revoir magnifique...
Proshchay velikolepnyy...

To pay for a 'Russia first' agenda, Putin takes ax to military spending
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pay-russia-f ... 25066.html
Among the projects that have suffered major reductions are Russia’s Su-57 stealth fighter, which will put in an appearance at Wednesday's Victory Day parade on Red Square, but whose production runs have been sharply cut for the foreseeable future. The postponements plaguing the Su-57 may not be simply about saving money; the aircraft is rumored to have a great many technical glitches. Another program that’s seen huge production cutbacks is the new T-14 Armata main battle tank, which will also feature on Red Square, but not so much on the Russian Army’s front lines, where the older T-90 tanks are slated to prevail for several more years.
So, here we are, we will be the only people funding this project. Don't expect a penny from russian. We pay and they own the ip. We see neither benefit of experience or product. It will probably take 15-20 billion to see this to completion and another decade..
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Excellent find Cybaru!

Putin-ji has done a wonderful thing for India. Cancelled both projects which would be detrimental to India’s MIC. Time for India to seriously invest in AMCA and Arjun. The payoffs will be fabulous.
Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Kashi »

Rakesh wrote:Excellent find Cybaru!

Putin-ji has done a wonderful thing for India. Cancelled both projects which would be detrimental to India’s MIC. Time for India to seriously invest in AMCA and Arjun. The payoffs will be fabulous.
+108 RakeshJi. I would like to believe that this means greater support for Arjun and AMCA, but I suspect they will find another way to vacillate and evade.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Pratyush »

How the mighty have fallen.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5414
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Manish_P »

Is the Christian Science Monitor supposed to be a good source on Russian Defence strategy? :shock:
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Austin »

Cybaru wrote:Au Revoir magnifique...
Proshchay velikolepnyy...

To pay for a 'Russia first' agenda, Putin takes ax to military spending
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pay-russia-f ... 25066.html
Among the projects that have suffered major reductions are Russia’s Su-57 stealth fighter, which will put in an appearance at Wednesday's Victory Day parade on Red Square, but whose production runs have been sharply cut for the foreseeable future. The postponements plaguing the Su-57 may not be simply about saving money; the aircraft is rumored to have a great many technical glitches. Another program that’s seen huge production cutbacks is the new T-14 Armata main battle tank, which will also feature on Red Square, but not so much on the Russian Army’s front lines, where the older T-90 tanks are slated to prevail for several more years.
So, here we are, we will be the only people funding this project. Don't expect a penny from russian. We pay and they own the ip. We see neither benefit of experience or product. It will probably take 15-20 billion to see this to completion and another decade..
Neither of the project has failed or got cut back , both are part of GPV 2018-2026 military program.

That article from CSM is mix of propoganda , politics and military !
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5414
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Manish_P »

Austin wrote:That article from CSM is mix of propoganda , politics and military !
and Hope!

Both of the western powers and made-in-india-first jingos (like me) :D
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Austin »

Manish_P wrote:
Austin wrote:That article from CSM is mix of propoganda , politics and military !
Both of the western powers and made-in-india-first jingos (like me) :D
Jingos like all of us are just well informed keyboard warriors nothing more nothing less :lol:

To buy or not is the call GOI/Armed forces make ....we jingos can rejoice or crib about it :lol:
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Don't know if this is real, but if it is, then Russian funding for PAKFA will slow down even further. This goes back to my earlier rant of (Time + money +scientific ability triad), and "money" will be the missing quotient for development of this gorgeous bird from the Russian side. This time IAF seems to be aware that pretty bird/brochure not equal to performance. If we participate, we will be the only funders, enablers drivers of this development. This means the risk of requiring more funds if 4-6 billion is not enough will fall to us. Russia/Sukhoi retain the IP and ability to sell this to our enemies. So they could turn around and sell this to china, and we will most likely have no say in it.

IMO, designing anything is an iterative process. It will go through rounds of design, production, validation, suggestions, formalization of improvements and the above cycle again. Whatever numbers they are throwing now are just wild estimations or guesses at best, the real bill will come when they are deep into it.

WHY IS RUSSIA CUTTING MILITARY SPENDING?
http://www.newsweek.com/why-russia-cutt ... ing-908069

RUSSIAN President Vladimir Putin has announced that he will cut military spending in 2018 but still plans to re-equip the army and navy.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/84 ... y-military
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cain Marko »

Russia already showed what it's real focus is via Putin's state of the Union speech. They have to spend on innovative strategic weapons like that nuclear powered cruise missile so as to pose some threat to the might of the US. conventionally they know they have been outspent and outgunned.

Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa. Loosen the frickin purse strings. India missed a golden chance in the nineties when much more could have been had for the mki. hell even the mig 1.44 design was bought off by the Cheens.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Philip »

CyB,I think that the Russians have realised that they must first dominate the strategic space which will guarantee them protection from any superpower/would-be superpower.It's why Blackjack production,more new SSBNs,hypersonic missiles and the new under water (UW) nuclear-tipped rocket drones are in the pipeline.The showing off of the Kinzhal ASM yesterday was evidence as to where their priorities lie.

As far as the SU-57 is concerned,I don't think there will be any change in the schedule they've laid out for the bird,which by 2020 will be in service.
The RuAF with their MKI equivs. and SU-35s,fear no air force,as the F-22 has scarcely been seen in any hotspot and the F-35 is labouring hard to be fully combat fit. The Syrian experience where even legacy Sov. era birds did the business,must've had its effect,as we are now in the era of payload centric warfare instead of performance centric platforms. Their massive strength in SAMs like the S-series,along with a menu of other anti-air weaponry,would inspire confidence in their capabilities for some time.However,there is no Q that the SU-57 will steadily enter service with the RuAF in the next decade. With our economic state deteriorating by the day-the rupee fell to its lowest level against the dollar yesterday,there is not enough in the kitty
at the moment to afford new fighters let alone upgrading old ones.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by SaiK »

India is the key to PAKFA.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-sal ... ?r=UK&IR=T


And..

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russian ... -35-2018-5

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter - not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by JayS »

SaiK wrote:India is the key to PAKFA.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-sal ... ?r=UK&IR=T


And..

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russian ... -35-2018-5

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter - not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Sorry couldn't resist. That's rather hilarious.
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2937
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by darshhan »

SaiK wrote:India is the key to PAKFA.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-sal ... ?r=UK&IR=T


And..

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russian ... -35-2018-5

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter - not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.
If they have figured out ways to detect and neutralize stealthy fighters, then the same can be ported to Su 30s and Mig 29s. No need to develop a new fighter to do the same. New radars, IRST and advanced signal processing software plus other stuff can all be upgraded in existing fighters or new builds of the same

The point is only a dumb fool develops an extremely expensive stealthy aircraft just for defensive purposes like countering F-22. Looks like our Russian friends are themselves confused about utility and role of pak fa.

As far as India is concerned I say good riddance.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Philip wrote:CyB,
As far as the SU-57 is concerned,I don't think there will be any change in the schedule they've laid out for the bird,which by 2020 will be in service.

With our economic state deteriorating by the day-the rupee fell to its lowest level against the dollar yesterday,there is not enough in the kitty at the moment to afford new fighters let alone upgrading old ones.
Phip, Sure, there is no doubt they will field some su-57 in the next decade or so. It will be like the Su-30 K without India's involvement. It will work for them and their needs, but may not be suitable for us.

Given the state of kitty, it is more imperative that we invest in our own products rather than shoring up the agenda of another company/country.
Misha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Jan 2018 00:25

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Misha »

Cain Marko wrote:Russia already showed what it's real focus is via Putin's state of the Union speech. They have to spend on innovative strategic weapons like that nuclear powered cruise missile so as to pose some threat to the might of the US. conventionally they know they have been outspent and outgunned.

Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa. Loosen the frickin purse strings. India missed a golden chance in the nineties when much more could have been had for the mki. hell even the mig 1.44 design was bought off by the Cheens.
With predictions of oil hitting even 100$, Russians will be able to fund some of these toys in a year of so, where as we will be stretched due to high oil prices. Middle East conflicts holds keys to fortunes for many countries in coming years...
Good thing about 100$ crude is, it will force us to focus on AMCA, LCA, Arjun... & it will fast track our western neighbor towards bankruptcy 8)
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Karan M »

If wishes are horses..
With sanctions, an economic slowdown, huge costs of the Syrian war, I dont anticipate Putin the great being able to afford any fancy toys.

Here are the main things from a gentleman who has access to classified information, aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)
2. FGFA will be better than J-20 in stealth but Rafale is quite sufficient to handle it
3. IAFs report on FGFA is classified, Govt has to take decision. In more or less words, IAF does not seem to be too keen on FGFA
4. No F-35 (I still don't understand why)

Anyhow, the PAK-FA seems to be stuck until and unless the Russians put in good money for it.

Its better we buy it off the shelf, if we must.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cybaru »

KM +1

Thanks for chiming in. I do think that IN will eventually go for the f-35 to counter Chinese navy. It may not be able to match it in building speed and assets and because of that IN will ultimately end up moving towards acquiring F35B to give it an edge to match things. It will also allow it to fly them of both the carriers. I think the cost of EMALS will be as high as another carrier or one could possibly acquire another 10 birds for the same cost. One then has to figure out what's more useful? having another 10 birds in kitty or having slightly higher loiter time and number of birds in air.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Cain Marko wrote: Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa.
Which IP would you like to buy? How much time do you think it will save in developing it ourselves. Please list.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Philip »

No F-35 becos the bird is too complex to handle and is plagued with dev. problems, not to mention its costs.Secondly, negotiating a sale with the US's intrusive inspection clauses, etc., will tax even the best of our babus.

The IAF have probably felt that picking up FGFAs off the shelf when required and developing the AMCA post 2030 to replace our medium birds is the best strategy given our weak eco position.Hopefully, the LCA production and MK-2 development will chug along at sufficient speed to replace legacy MIGs.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Philip wrote:No F-35 becos the bird is too complex to handle and is plagued with dev. problems, not to mention its costs.
At least there are development issues and they are reported!! Not to mention fixes being applied and development work for further tranches being created. You ain't got that level of transparency from your ruskie friends.. Every issue is our fault, from crappy fuel to stones on runway or dust in air or improper procedures..
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:4. No F-35 (I still don't understand why)
COMCASA.

There is a significant trust deficit between India and the US. It is still very much a transactional relationship and not a strategic relationship at all. America needs to drop the I-Am-Still-Emperor mentality, despite being $21 trillion in debt. It is unsustainable for them. They will eventually collapse, if they continue on this path.

If they want to seriously tackle the Dragon, they need to drop these nonsensical agreements like COMCASA. Stop playing Emperor and start thinking of partnership in the true meaning of the term. Stop molly coddling Pakistan and then ask for strategic partnership with India. That will not work. Stop shooting yourself in the foot (which they habitually did during the SEF contest) by putting out statements that are guaranteed to make them lose. Stop with the pompous lectures on human rights and religious rights in India and take care of your own backyard first ---> the "gun" problem, racial strife with non-whites, police brutality, etc...the list goes on.

Adopting the term from former US President Bill Clinton, "There is nothing wrong with India, that cannot be cured with what is right in India." Partner with us and make it better for both nations and for the world as a whole.

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam --> The world is one family
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cain Marko »

Cybaru wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa.
Which IP would you like to buy? How much time do you think it will save in developing it ourselves. Please list.
IP on Whatever is deemed crucial that cannot be held up because russki oems can't support at last moment or play hard to get games. Whereby India can tinker with the bird as it wants to including using it's own future weapons and upgrades. Ideally, India should be able to build apakfa clone as the Chinese were able to build the j11. That kind of access.

As far as time is concerned, how much time do you think AMCA will take? How much time will it take for it to close the development lead the pakfa has on it today, note there are about 10 birds flying.

Also note that the report from the official committee points out that the fgfa would be a good acquisition. TBH, I think there is some heavy bargaining going on, and now is the time to do so, get everything we want, pay the price and this takes time. . When the final bird comes along, it'll be a world beater just like the rambha.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Austin »

All aspect of JV have been sorted out and from HAL Chairman statement the report is with MOD to take a call , MOD has also asked IAF to give its view and that has been given and is with MOD as IAF cheif mentioned recently.

So MOD is the final arbitrator and will look at HAL and the Commitee that it had setup and also look at IAF POV and will come to some decision perhaps sooner than latter.

I believe the sticking point is cost but even Rafale Cost a bomb and 5th Gen Fighter will be expensive if that includes TOT , Lic Manf etc , It will be cheaper if it is purchased out right like they did with Rafale when Lic Manuf TOT was found to be expensive.

A Mid Way approach would be to buy it outright say 80-100 aircraft and build MRO facilities in India like they are doing for M2K and Rafale , Customise it with Indian component gradually ...this will keep cost low.

Till such time AMCA is ready for mass production will wont happen before 2032-2035 build more Tejas and MKI in Mark model and Super MKI.

The days of building Lic Fighter at low cost are gone and MKI was the last good capable fighter we could afford to lic build in India
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cybaru »

^^
I agree with Austin, we will never ever get a low cost lic production agreement ever again. I think we continue to add another 60-80 MKI and forget PAKFA.

We make sure that Super-MKI exceeds and makes the platform very potent for a long time. We invest in the GaN facility at IISC and push for ASEA GaN radars on the MKI. We push to make the engines far more reliable in whatever form.

We should evaluate if we really need pakfa after 2022 time frame and see where it is and how it has progressed.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by SaiK »

Karan M wrote:If wishes are horses....
4. No F-35 (I still don't understand why)..
No Clear & Present Danger. Funds can be diverted to AMCA
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by JayS »

I think IAF is looking for more conventional superiority fighter in the 5th gen acquicision which will eventually take up the mantle that Su30MKI have. PAKFA fits that role well, though (my reading of the situation) IAF does not believe Ruskies can deliver on their promises on FGFA. So their reluctance on FGFA. But that doesnt necessarily give a foot in door for F35. Its designed with a different doctrin altogether. I believe IAF is not in a situation to exploit F35 to its full potential given the existing level of its infra and the trouble to integrate F35 with our zoo of systems properly and it comes with too many strings attached too. Whatever IAF would be able to utilize F35 for, isnt worth the money. We better spend that money on AMCA which will be tailor made for IAF's doctrin.

IMO its wise on IAF's part that they are not taking F35 seriously. AMCA should be our 5th Gen aircraft in the mid weight category.

IMO, IAF should start contemplating on alternatives to fulfill FGFA requirement. An enlarged AMCA, in addition to the current one, in parallel is not a bad idea too. Our Su30 fleet has quite a bit of time left. Even if we get such fighter in next 20yrs its not a bad thing. With a desi alternative we can even dream of replacing entire Su30 fleet one-to-one with heavy 5th gen fighter starting from 2040.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Philip »

Around 350- 360 MKIs with at least half , some brand new and others upgraded to SS std. Will be the equiv of 18 sqds. and almost 40% of the IAF's inventory, making it easier to maintain and support.With another 80 LCAs and 160 medium sized aircraft ( MIG-29s, M2Ks and Rafales), will give us at least 30 sqds.Add to this another 120+ upgraded Jags, 6 sqds .more. This should be possible to achieve within 3-4 years. 720 aircraft not including legacy 100+ Bisons which will need replacing at this time by LCAs..Arguably we could have 40 sqds. available in this manner.If 2 sqds. of SU-57s arrive in 4 years time, the magic figure of 42 sqds. would be achieved.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Austin »

Karan M wrote:aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)
I dont know what prompts the Chief to say that because you can have Canard and yet have LO , some of the design from US Manuf are itself witness to it and even Rafale/Eurofighter have canards.

I am sure Su-30 can even detect a F-22 or F-33 or J-20 or FGFA from several km , If it can detect a low flying cruse missile at serveral dozen of km against surface background , then detecting the LO aircraft is not an issue.

if you have heard the IAF chief full video of Airchief when he spoke of moden radars and how even flocks of birds were detected from huge distances , the effect of LO on modern radars are highly over rated and its more of PR thing

I am 100 % sure modern radars like DRDO Arudhra AESA would be able to track any LO targets from 100s of km and swat them like a fly .....Radar technology and advancement in Signal processing and algorithm have grown far more exponentially that LO have grown and LO will have limitations of Physics while Radar technology will keep growing without much limitations.

Eventually any LO will have to use new gen EW and ECM to breakthrough modern radar if it has to , passive stealth based on just RAS/LO design and RAM treatment wont cut through
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cain Marko »

The other side of dhanoajis remark is.... How far can the j20 detect the mki? After all, stealth doesnt make a plane totally invisible, a lot depends upon opposing radar as you put it, but it's not as if the opponents, in this case the j20 don't have radar at all.

Id venture to say that the mki has a larger rcs than the j20 and a radar that is on par or close. A Rafale with efts and external weapons isn't going to be stealthy either.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by nam »

Karan M wrote:
Here are the main things from a gentleman who has access to classified information, aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)
I will take this as confirmation of my opinion about canards on stealth, until it comes from a better authority. There is no production stealth aircraft with canards, except the Chinese. I don't know how they intend to reduce reflection with the canards moving in all directions, specially in the vertical plane. Designers had to deal with reflection from cockpit and vertical stabilizer. Here we have a massive canard on a supposed stealth jet.

Here is my view on J20. PLA considers PLAAF as air artillery. They asked for a stealth bomb truck. They got one. Since they build a big jet with weak engine, it moved like a brick in the air. Needless to say, they went with canards, to make it fly better.

If it was such a great idea, the J31 should have had one.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by JayS »

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)
I dont know what prompts the Chief to say that because you can have Canard and yet have LO , some of the design from US Manuf are itself witness to it and even Rafale/Eurofighter have canards.
Where exactly IAF chief has said something about J20's canard..? The press conf video where he said Su30 can see J20 many kms out, I dont remember him saying anything about canards being reason for low LO.

Did I miss something..?
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Karan M »

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)
I dont know what prompts the Chief to say that because you can have Canard and yet have LO , some of the design from US Manuf are itself witness to it and even Rafale/Eurofighter have canards.


Do you see the issues regarding planform alignment?


http://www.defenceweb.co.za/mobilesite/ ... ighter.jpg

The Chief is spot on.

I am sure Su-30 can even detect a F-22 or F-33 or J-20 or FGFA from several km , If it can detect a low flying cruse missile at serveral dozen of km against surface background , then detecting the LO aircraft is not an issue.
Doubtful, the F-22 is a RF soak. AESA equipped F-15s cant detect it. The F-35 will also be very tough. The Chinese fighters are a different beast.
if you have heard the IAF chief full video of Airchief when he spoke of moden radars and how even flocks of birds were detected from huge distances , the effect of LO on modern radars are highly over rated and its more of PR thing
Not necessarily, he was speaking with regards to our immediate threats.
I am 100 % sure modern radars like DRDO Arudhra AESA would be able to track any LO targets from 100s of km and swat them like a fly .....Radar technology and advancement in Signal processing and algorithm have grown far more exponentially that LO have grown and LO will have limitations of Physics while Radar technology will keep growing without much limitations.

We are also ctively researching anti LO methods.
Eventually any LO will have to use new gen EW and ECM to breakthrough modern radar if it has to , passive stealth based on just RAS/LO design and RAM treatment wont cut through
Depends. Non traditional band radars simply cant be jammed easily while GaN based HPRs may again bring back detection advantages to even X, S band systems
Post Reply