PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 03 May 2018 11:56

New Second Stage Id 30 Engine Seen on the Left Side , new TVC Nozzle with Saw Tooth can be seen on 052 Test platform for the engine

Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Prem » 05 May 2018 11:13

https://sputniknews.com/military/201805 ... ive-su-57/
( Spootnicking )

US Analyst Describes Six Most Impressive Aspects of Russia’s Su-57

US defense journalist Tyler Rogoway illustrated six points about Russia’s “misunderstood” Su-57 that people may not know."To some degree the T-50/Su-57 is a misunderstood aircraft," Rogoway wrote Monday.First, the plane has side-mounted active electronically scanned array X-band radars, while similar planes feature this add-on on its nose. The radar enhances the Su-57 fighter's situational awareness while allowing it execute specialized aerial maneuvers such as ‘beaming' "better than nearly other fighter around," according to an article published in The War Zone Monday.The Su-57 has "turrets that fire modulated laser beams at an incoming missile's seeker to blind it and throw it off course," the War Zone added.The aircraft also features advanced 101KS ‘Atoll' infrared search and track sensors above the nose to allow the pilot to better detect and engage hostile aircraft.Like its Russian aircraft predecessors, the Su-57 is well-suited for taking off and landing from rugged airfields.The engines on the plane are capable of 3D thrust vectoring. Introducing thrust vectoring with workable engines has proven difficult for Chinese engineers, who have yet to field indigenous thrust-vectoring engines onto the J-20.Finally, the internal weapons bay appears to hold between four and six medium-range air-to-air missiles, or perhaps a smaller number of larger-payload guided bombs. But that may not be the only location for internal weapons storage. "Maybe a specialized missile with a smaller diameter profile is intended for those bays sometime in the future," Rogoway wrote of the possible missile extra internal weapons bays near the wing roots.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Singha » 05 May 2018 11:26

The wavy saw tooth thing is seen in some civilian cfm56 engines on some models of 737
I read it reduces noise
Dont know any impact on rcs or thermal sig

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 08 May 2018 13:08

ShauryaT wrote:@TSarkar: I agree in general, we should not use Indian money for foreign companies to build/mature their wares, but is there another time and risk mitigation option to the PAK-FA minus ceding strategic space or downgrading of our capabilities vs the PLAAF?

Responded in Chinese military thread.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JayS » 08 May 2018 14:46

Singha wrote:The wavy saw tooth thing is seen in some civilian cfm56 engines on some models of 737
I read it reduces noise
Dont know any impact on rcs or thermal sig


The one in Civil jet are call Chevrons. They are to reduce jet noise.

F35 has similar things on the exhaust nozzle. They are suppose to reduce IR signature. Now PAKFA has them too.

My educated guess is that both work on the same principle - by enhancing mixing of jet shear layer.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby hnair » 08 May 2018 19:17

Austin wrote:New Second Stage Id 30 Engine Seen on the Left Side , new TVC Nozzle with Saw Tooth can be seen on 052 Test platform for the engine

https://scontent-arn2-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/13f55330529149d647390eed9d19cd1d/5B9561C3/t51.2885-15/s1080x1080/e35/31375887_1739248059489247_307189495667621888_n.jpg


Wow. From this angle and ambient lighting, such beautiful lines on this bird. Reminds me of the graceful curves on a B1-B. Pity the other aspects of this program is lagging

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby darshhan » 08 May 2018 23:03

hnair wrote:
Austin wrote:New Second Stage Id 30 Engine Seen on the Left Side , new TVC Nozzle with Saw Tooth can be seen on 052 Test platform for the engine

https://scontent-arn2-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/13f55330529149d647390eed9d19cd1d/5B9561C3/t51.2885-15/s1080x1080/e35/31375887_1739248059489247_307189495667621888_n.jpg


Wow. From this angle and ambient lighting, such beautiful lines on this bird. Reminds me of the graceful curves on a B1-B. Pity the other aspects of this program is lagging


Now if only it was stealthy enough.....

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 09 May 2018 07:09

Au Revoir magnifique...
Proshchay velikolepnyy...

To pay for a 'Russia first' agenda, Putin takes ax to military spending
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pay-russia-first-agenda-putin-takes-ax-military-200025066.html

Among the projects that have suffered major reductions are Russia’s Su-57 stealth fighter, which will put in an appearance at Wednesday's Victory Day parade on Red Square, but whose production runs have been sharply cut for the foreseeable future. The postponements plaguing the Su-57 may not be simply about saving money; the aircraft is rumored to have a great many technical glitches. Another program that’s seen huge production cutbacks is the new T-14 Armata main battle tank, which will also feature on Red Square, but not so much on the Russian Army’s front lines, where the older T-90 tanks are slated to prevail for several more years.


So, here we are, we will be the only people funding this project. Don't expect a penny from russian. We pay and they own the ip. We see neither benefit of experience or product. It will probably take 15-20 billion to see this to completion and another decade..

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 09 May 2018 08:21

Excellent find Cybaru!

Putin-ji has done a wonderful thing for India. Cancelled both projects which would be detrimental to India’s MIC. Time for India to seriously invest in AMCA and Arjun. The payoffs will be fabulous.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Kashi » 09 May 2018 08:28

Rakesh wrote:Excellent find Cybaru!

Putin-ji has done a wonderful thing for India. Cancelled both projects which would be detrimental to India’s MIC. Time for India to seriously invest in AMCA and Arjun. The payoffs will be fabulous.


+108 RakeshJi. I would like to believe that this means greater support for Arjun and AMCA, but I suspect they will find another way to vacillate and evade.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Pratyush » 09 May 2018 11:07

How the mighty have fallen.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 09 May 2018 11:25

Is the Christian Science Monitor supposed to be a good source on Russian Defence strategy? :shock:

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 09 May 2018 13:32

Cybaru wrote:Au Revoir magnifique...
Proshchay velikolepnyy...

To pay for a 'Russia first' agenda, Putin takes ax to military spending
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pay-russia-first-agenda-putin-takes-ax-military-200025066.html

Among the projects that have suffered major reductions are Russia’s Su-57 stealth fighter, which will put in an appearance at Wednesday's Victory Day parade on Red Square, but whose production runs have been sharply cut for the foreseeable future. The postponements plaguing the Su-57 may not be simply about saving money; the aircraft is rumored to have a great many technical glitches. Another program that’s seen huge production cutbacks is the new T-14 Armata main battle tank, which will also feature on Red Square, but not so much on the Russian Army’s front lines, where the older T-90 tanks are slated to prevail for several more years.


So, here we are, we will be the only people funding this project. Don't expect a penny from russian. We pay and they own the ip. We see neither benefit of experience or product. It will probably take 15-20 billion to see this to completion and another decade..


Neither of the project has failed or got cut back , both are part of GPV 2018-2026 military program.

That article from CSM is mix of propoganda , politics and military !

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 09 May 2018 14:52

Austin wrote:That article from CSM is mix of propoganda , politics and military !


and Hope!

Both of the western powers and made-in-india-first jingos (like me) :D

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 09 May 2018 16:53

Manish_P wrote:
Austin wrote:That article from CSM is mix of propoganda , politics and military !


Both of the western powers and made-in-india-first jingos (like me) :D


Jingos like all of us are just well informed keyboard warriors nothing more nothing less :lol:

To buy or not is the call GOI/Armed forces make ....we jingos can rejoice or crib about it :lol:

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 10 May 2018 00:47

Don't know if this is real, but if it is, then Russian funding for PAKFA will slow down even further. This goes back to my earlier rant of (Time + money +scientific ability triad), and "money" will be the missing quotient for development of this gorgeous bird from the Russian side. This time IAF seems to be aware that pretty bird/brochure not equal to performance. If we participate, we will be the only funders, enablers drivers of this development. This means the risk of requiring more funds if 4-6 billion is not enough will fall to us. Russia/Sukhoi retain the IP and ability to sell this to our enemies. So they could turn around and sell this to china, and we will most likely have no say in it.

IMO, designing anything is an iterative process. It will go through rounds of design, production, validation, suggestions, formalization of improvements and the above cycle again. Whatever numbers they are throwing now are just wild estimations or guesses at best, the real bill will come when they are deep into it.

WHY IS RUSSIA CUTTING MILITARY SPENDING?
http://www.newsweek.com/why-russia-cutting-military-spending-908069

RUSSIAN President Vladimir Putin has announced that he will cut military spending in 2018 but still plans to re-equip the army and navy.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/841688/putin-russia-military-cold-war-navy-military

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 10 May 2018 11:33

Russia already showed what it's real focus is via Putin's state of the Union speech. They have to spend on innovative strategic weapons like that nuclear powered cruise missile so as to pose some threat to the might of the US. conventionally they know they have been outspent and outgunned.

Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa. Loosen the frickin purse strings. India missed a golden chance in the nineties when much more could have been had for the mki. hell even the mig 1.44 design was bought off by the Cheens.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 10 May 2018 12:45

CyB,I think that the Russians have realised that they must first dominate the strategic space which will guarantee them protection from any superpower/would-be superpower.It's why Blackjack production,more new SSBNs,hypersonic missiles and the new under water (UW) nuclear-tipped rocket drones are in the pipeline.The showing off of the Kinzhal ASM yesterday was evidence as to where their priorities lie.

As far as the SU-57 is concerned,I don't think there will be any change in the schedule they've laid out for the bird,which by 2020 will be in service.
The RuAF with their MKI equivs. and SU-35s,fear no air force,as the F-22 has scarcely been seen in any hotspot and the F-35 is labouring hard to be fully combat fit. The Syrian experience where even legacy Sov. era birds did the business,must've had its effect,as we are now in the era of payload centric warfare instead of performance centric platforms. Their massive strength in SAMs like the S-series,along with a menu of other anti-air weaponry,would inspire confidence in their capabilities for some time.However,there is no Q that the SU-57 will steadily enter service with the RuAF in the next decade. With our economic state deteriorating by the day-the rupee fell to its lowest level against the dollar yesterday,there is not enough in the kitty
at the moment to afford new fighters let alone upgrading old ones.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 10 May 2018 14:56

India is the key to PAKFA.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-sal ... ?r=UK&IR=T


And..

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russian ... -35-2018-5

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter - not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JayS » 10 May 2018 15:49

SaiK wrote:India is the key to PAKFA.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-sal ... ?r=UK&IR=T


And..

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russian ... -35-2018-5

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter - not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.


:rotfl: :rotfl:

Sorry couldn't resist. That's rather hilarious.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby darshhan » 10 May 2018 18:11

SaiK wrote:India is the key to PAKFA.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-sal ... ?r=UK&IR=T


And..

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russian ... -35-2018-5

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter - not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.


If they have figured out ways to detect and neutralize stealthy fighters, then the same can be ported to Su 30s and Mig 29s. No need to develop a new fighter to do the same. New radars, IRST and advanced signal processing software plus other stuff can all be upgraded in existing fighters or new builds of the same

The point is only a dumb fool develops an extremely expensive stealthy aircraft just for defensive purposes like countering F-22. Looks like our Russian friends are themselves confused about utility and role of pak fa.

As far as India is concerned I say good riddance.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 11 May 2018 00:37

Philip wrote:CyB,
As far as the SU-57 is concerned,I don't think there will be any change in the schedule they've laid out for the bird,which by 2020 will be in service.

With our economic state deteriorating by the day-the rupee fell to its lowest level against the dollar yesterday,there is not enough in the kitty at the moment to afford new fighters let alone upgrading old ones.


Phip, Sure, there is no doubt they will field some su-57 in the next decade or so. It will be like the Su-30 K without India's involvement. It will work for them and their needs, but may not be suitable for us.

Given the state of kitty, it is more imperative that we invest in our own products rather than shoring up the agenda of another company/country.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Misha » 11 May 2018 04:12

Cain Marko wrote:Russia already showed what it's real focus is via Putin's state of the Union speech. They have to spend on innovative strategic weapons like that nuclear powered cruise missile so as to pose some threat to the might of the US. conventionally they know they have been outspent and outgunned.

Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa. Loosen the frickin purse strings. India missed a golden chance in the nineties when much more could have been had for the mki. hell even the mig 1.44 design was bought off by the Cheens.


With predictions of oil hitting even 100$, Russians will be able to fund some of these toys in a year of so, where as we will be stretched due to high oil prices. Middle East conflicts holds keys to fortunes for many countries in coming years...
Good thing about 100$ crude is, it will force us to focus on AMCA, LCA, Arjun... & it will fast track our western neighbor towards bankruptcy 8)

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 11 May 2018 04:19

If wishes are horses..
With sanctions, an economic slowdown, huge costs of the Syrian war, I dont anticipate Putin the great being able to afford any fancy toys.

Here are the main things from a gentleman who has access to classified information, aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)
2. FGFA will be better than J-20 in stealth but Rafale is quite sufficient to handle it
3. IAFs report on FGFA is classified, Govt has to take decision. In more or less words, IAF does not seem to be too keen on FGFA
4. No F-35 (I still don't understand why)

Anyhow, the PAK-FA seems to be stuck until and unless the Russians put in good money for it.

Its better we buy it off the shelf, if we must.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 11 May 2018 04:51

KM +1

Thanks for chiming in. I do think that IN will eventually go for the f-35 to counter Chinese navy. It may not be able to match it in building speed and assets and because of that IN will ultimately end up moving towards acquiring F35B to give it an edge to match things. It will also allow it to fly them of both the carriers. I think the cost of EMALS will be as high as another carrier or one could possibly acquire another 10 birds for the same cost. One then has to figure out what's more useful? having another 10 birds in kitty or having slightly higher loiter time and number of birds in air.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 11 May 2018 04:52

Cain Marko wrote:Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa.


Which IP would you like to buy? How much time do you think it will save in developing it ourselves. Please list.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 11 May 2018 05:08

No F-35 becos the bird is too complex to handle and is plagued with dev. problems, not to mention its costs.Secondly, negotiating a sale with the US's intrusive inspection clauses, etc., will tax even the best of our babus.

The IAF have probably felt that picking up FGFAs off the shelf when required and developing the AMCA post 2030 to replace our medium birds is the best strategy given our weak eco position.Hopefully, the LCA production and MK-2 development will chug along at sufficient speed to replace legacy MIGs.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 11 May 2018 05:26

Philip wrote:No F-35 becos the bird is too complex to handle and is plagued with dev. problems, not to mention its costs.


At least there are development issues and they are reported!! Not to mention fixes being applied and development work for further tranches being created. You ain't got that level of transparency from your ruskie friends.. Every issue is our fault, from crappy fuel to stones on runway or dust in air or improper procedures..

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 11 May 2018 05:59

Karan M wrote:4. No F-35 (I still don't understand why)

COMCASA.

There is a significant trust deficit between India and the US. It is still very much a transactional relationship and not a strategic relationship at all. America needs to drop the I-Am-Still-Emperor mentality, despite being $21 trillion in debt. It is unsustainable for them. They will eventually collapse, if they continue on this path.

If they want to seriously tackle the Dragon, they need to drop these nonsensical agreements like COMCASA. Stop playing Emperor and start thinking of partnership in the true meaning of the term. Stop molly coddling Pakistan and then ask for strategic partnership with India. That will not work. Stop shooting yourself in the foot (which they habitually did during the SEF contest) by putting out statements that are guaranteed to make them lose. Stop with the pompous lectures on human rights and religious rights in India and take care of your own backyard first ---> the "gun" problem, racial strife with non-whites, police brutality, etc...the list goes on.

Adopting the term from former US President Bill Clinton, "There is nothing wrong with India, that cannot be cured with what is right in India." Partner with us and make it better for both nations and for the world as a whole.

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam --> The world is one family

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 11 May 2018 09:53

Cybaru wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Now is the time to bargain hard with the Russians, get the IP and the damn pakfa.


Which IP would you like to buy? How much time do you think it will save in developing it ourselves. Please list.


IP on Whatever is deemed crucial that cannot be held up because russki oems can't support at last moment or play hard to get games. Whereby India can tinker with the bird as it wants to including using it's own future weapons and upgrades. Ideally, India should be able to build apakfa clone as the Chinese were able to build the j11. That kind of access.

As far as time is concerned, how much time do you think AMCA will take? How much time will it take for it to close the development lead the pakfa has on it today, note there are about 10 birds flying.

Also note that the report from the official committee points out that the fgfa would be a good acquisition. TBH, I think there is some heavy bargaining going on, and now is the time to do so, get everything we want, pay the price and this takes time. . When the final bird comes along, it'll be a world beater just like the rambha.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 11 May 2018 10:31

All aspect of JV have been sorted out and from HAL Chairman statement the report is with MOD to take a call , MOD has also asked IAF to give its view and that has been given and is with MOD as IAF cheif mentioned recently.

So MOD is the final arbitrator and will look at HAL and the Commitee that it had setup and also look at IAF POV and will come to some decision perhaps sooner than latter.

I believe the sticking point is cost but even Rafale Cost a bomb and 5th Gen Fighter will be expensive if that includes TOT , Lic Manf etc , It will be cheaper if it is purchased out right like they did with Rafale when Lic Manuf TOT was found to be expensive.

A Mid Way approach would be to buy it outright say 80-100 aircraft and build MRO facilities in India like they are doing for M2K and Rafale , Customise it with Indian component gradually ...this will keep cost low.

Till such time AMCA is ready for mass production will wont happen before 2032-2035 build more Tejas and MKI in Mark model and Super MKI.

The days of building Lic Fighter at low cost are gone and MKI was the last good capable fighter we could afford to lic build in India

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 11 May 2018 23:44

^^
I agree with Austin, we will never ever get a low cost lic production agreement ever again. I think we continue to add another 60-80 MKI and forget PAKFA.

We make sure that Super-MKI exceeds and makes the platform very potent for a long time. We invest in the GaN facility at IISC and push for ASEA GaN radars on the MKI. We push to make the engines far more reliable in whatever form.

We should evaluate if we really need pakfa after 2022 time frame and see where it is and how it has progressed.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 12 May 2018 06:23

Karan M wrote:If wishes are horses....
4. No F-35 (I still don't understand why)..

No Clear & Present Danger. Funds can be diverted to AMCA

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JayS » 12 May 2018 14:17

I think IAF is looking for more conventional superiority fighter in the 5th gen acquicision which will eventually take up the mantle that Su30MKI have. PAKFA fits that role well, though (my reading of the situation) IAF does not believe Ruskies can deliver on their promises on FGFA. So their reluctance on FGFA. But that doesnt necessarily give a foot in door for F35. Its designed with a different doctrin altogether. I believe IAF is not in a situation to exploit F35 to its full potential given the existing level of its infra and the trouble to integrate F35 with our zoo of systems properly and it comes with too many strings attached too. Whatever IAF would be able to utilize F35 for, isnt worth the money. We better spend that money on AMCA which will be tailor made for IAF's doctrin.

IMO its wise on IAF's part that they are not taking F35 seriously. AMCA should be our 5th Gen aircraft in the mid weight category.

IMO, IAF should start contemplating on alternatives to fulfill FGFA requirement. An enlarged AMCA, in addition to the current one, in parallel is not a bad idea too. Our Su30 fleet has quite a bit of time left. Even if we get such fighter in next 20yrs its not a bad thing. With a desi alternative we can even dream of replacing entire Su30 fleet one-to-one with heavy 5th gen fighter starting from 2040.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 12 May 2018 14:19

Around 350- 360 MKIs with at least half , some brand new and others upgraded to SS std. Will be the equiv of 18 sqds. and almost 40% of the IAF's inventory, making it easier to maintain and support.With another 80 LCAs and 160 medium sized aircraft ( MIG-29s, M2Ks and Rafales), will give us at least 30 sqds.Add to this another 120+ upgraded Jags, 6 sqds .more. This should be possible to achieve within 3-4 years. 720 aircraft not including legacy 100+ Bisons which will need replacing at this time by LCAs..Arguably we could have 40 sqds. available in this manner.If 2 sqds. of SU-57s arrive in 4 years time, the magic figure of 42 sqds. would be achieved.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 12 May 2018 18:33

Karan M wrote:aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)


I dont know what prompts the Chief to say that because you can have Canard and yet have LO , some of the design from US Manuf are itself witness to it and even Rafale/Eurofighter have canards.

I am sure Su-30 can even detect a F-22 or F-33 or J-20 or FGFA from several km , If it can detect a low flying cruse missile at serveral dozen of km against surface background , then detecting the LO aircraft is not an issue.

if you have heard the IAF chief full video of Airchief when he spoke of moden radars and how even flocks of birds were detected from huge distances , the effect of LO on modern radars are highly over rated and its more of PR thing

I am 100 % sure modern radars like DRDO Arudhra AESA would be able to track any LO targets from 100s of km and swat them like a fly .....Radar technology and advancement in Signal processing and algorithm have grown far more exponentially that LO have grown and LO will have limitations of Physics while Radar technology will keep growing without much limitations.

Eventually any LO will have to use new gen EW and ECM to breakthrough modern radar if it has to , passive stealth based on just RAS/LO design and RAM treatment wont cut through

Cain Marko
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 12 May 2018 21:55

The other side of dhanoajis remark is.... How far can the j20 detect the mki? After all, stealth doesnt make a plane totally invisible, a lot depends upon opposing radar as you put it, but it's not as if the opponents, in this case the j20 don't have radar at all.

Id venture to say that the mki has a larger rcs than the j20 and a radar that is on par or close. A Rafale with efts and external weapons isn't going to be stealthy either.

nam
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby nam » 12 May 2018 22:56

Karan M wrote:
Here are the main things from a gentleman who has access to classified information, aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)



I will take this as confirmation of my opinion about canards on stealth, until it comes from a better authority. There is no production stealth aircraft with canards, except the Chinese. I don't know how they intend to reduce reflection with the canards moving in all directions, specially in the vertical plane. Designers had to deal with reflection from cockpit and vertical stabilizer. Here we have a massive canard on a supposed stealth jet.

Here is my view on J20. PLA considers PLAAF as air artillery. They asked for a stealth bomb truck. They got one. Since they build a big jet with weak engine, it moved like a brick in the air. Needless to say, they went with canards, to make it fly better.

If it was such a great idea, the J31 should have had one.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JayS » 13 May 2018 01:24

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)


I dont know what prompts the Chief to say that because you can have Canard and yet have LO , some of the design from US Manuf are itself witness to it and even Rafale/Eurofighter have canards.



Where exactly IAF chief has said something about J20's canard..? The press conf video where he said Su30 can see J20 many kms out, I dont remember him saying anything about canards being reason for low LO.

Did I miss something..?

Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2018 10:44

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:aka the CAS, BS Dhanoa sir!

1. J-20 canards & other aspects == not real stealth, Su-30 can detect it from several km (which means tactically useful ranges)


I dont know what prompts the Chief to say that because you can have Canard and yet have LO , some of the design from US Manuf are itself witness to it and even Rafale/Eurofighter have canards.




Do you see the issues regarding planform alignment?


http://www.defenceweb.co.za/mobilesite/ ... ighter.jpg

The Chief is spot on.


I am sure Su-30 can even detect a F-22 or F-33 or J-20 or FGFA from several km , If it can detect a low flying cruse missile at serveral dozen of km against surface background , then detecting the LO aircraft is not an issue.


Doubtful, the F-22 is a RF soak. AESA equipped F-15s cant detect it. The F-35 will also be very tough. The Chinese fighters are a different beast.

if you have heard the IAF chief full video of Airchief when he spoke of moden radars and how even flocks of birds were detected from huge distances , the effect of LO on modern radars are highly over rated and its more of PR thing


Not necessarily, he was speaking with regards to our immediate threats.

I am 100 % sure modern radars like DRDO Arudhra AESA would be able to track any LO targets from 100s of km and swat them like a fly .....Radar technology and advancement in Signal processing and algorithm have grown far more exponentially that LO have grown and LO will have limitations of Physics while Radar technology will keep growing without much limitations.



We are also ctively researching anti LO methods.

Eventually any LO will have to use new gen EW and ECM to breakthrough modern radar if it has to , passive stealth based on just RAS/LO design and RAM treatment wont cut through


Depends. Non traditional band radars simply cant be jammed easily while GaN based HPRs may again bring back detection advantages to even X, S band systems


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