Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7500
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 01 Nov 2016 11:36

Yagnasri wrote:Yes, Guruji. If we get a significant portion of the R&D work at India, it will be a great thing for us.


The recent news of Russian arms exporters paying 100 million Euros to a London based middle-man actually explains a lot that is wrong with our defense acquisition.

Question is - why would Russians pay bribe because more often than not, they're the only solution provider in their category? Also, why do others pay a bribe? Apart from the obvious of winning the contract for your party, I think there are multiple levels involved here.

1. Apart from cases where IA has clear-cut requirement, I think there are cases where agents of weapons manufacturers influence the Services to create a specific requirement. If the Acceptance of Necessity is accorded for this weapon system, the RFP will of course be literally tailor-made for such a system.

2. Other is the more straight-forward method - Genuine requirement exists, RFP is issued and it tends to favor a particular system. Reminds me of example in General V.K. Singh's autobiography - The tender for ULWH was literally tailor-made for Singapore Kinetics Pegasus gun. But for SK getting embroiled in OFB controversy, the gun would've gone through. When V.K. Singh assumed office, he pitched for M-777 and asked the Defense Secretary to modify the GSOR which had components not relevant to such a weapon system. The DS refused and that is how we heard reports for M-777 failing GSQR requirements.

3. The other high level avenue of corruption is the loose framing of the contracts - this gives an opportunity to the vendors to not fill their part of commitments like genuine Off-set investments as well as milk the contract for 'additional' work.

4. Slow production rate at OFB or other PSU - I've a strong sense that in many cases, the delays in production at OFBs and other PSU like HAL are deliberate. Because any delay in manufacture automatically leads to direct orders from Russians or OEM. Su-30 production at HAL and T-90 production at Avadi are two very important case in points.

IMO, Russians pay bribe for point no. 3 and no.4 above.

There are deliberate inefficiencies built into our procurement system to aid in corruption on massive scale.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35193
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 01 Nov 2016 17:42

vats++

---

^^^ 360* means rearward is a must and top and bottom coverage can be passive t/r modules.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18577
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 02 Nov 2016 10:15

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 166961.cms

On whether the FGFA would include technology that is currently being developed for the sixth generation fighter aircraft that Russia is working on, Chemezov said, "The sixth generation aircraft is not really something we can seriously discuss right now as it is too far off. PAK-FA features can be introduced in the FGFA but, more importantly, one has to realize that this is a plane that will be developed jointly with India's engineers and constructors.

"I see, very realistically, that something such as avionics and radar detection would be even more improved and that would make the Indian FGFA more advanced than the PAK-FA that was introduced last year," he added.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16193
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 03 Nov 2016 12:36

Meanwhile the J-20 takes to the skies publicly and its export version will sooner rather than later end up with the PAF. This beggars the Q in the article below:

China's J-20 Takes Flight, Where is India's AMCA ?
Thursday, November 03, 2016
By: SPUTNIK News

Against the backdrop of soured relations with China, India’s conundrum related to development of fifth generation fighter aircraft has deepened after Beijing exhibited its fifth generation stealth fighter aircraft J-20 to the world on Tuesday.

Analysts believe that the J-20 is best suited for the Asia Pacific region because of its large size that can enable it to carry more internal fuel. Capability to hit air bases and aircraft carriers without detection are a threat to a country like India.

“The J 20 is the China’s twin-jet, fifth-generation fighter aircraft which is their second stealth fighter program. It is expected to be operational in 2018. China is pulling ahead in military aircraft production. It is of concern to India and India must accelerate its Advanced Medium Combat Stealth Aircraft (AMCSA) program with foreign help,” said Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retired).

The Indian Air Force has proposed building an indigenous fifth generation stealth aircraft, the AMCSA, but it still remains at the conceptual stage. Sweden’s SAAB has offered to help in development of AMCSA but is yet to receive a response from the Indian establishment.

Meanwhile, India is still deliberating over the joint development of a fifth generation fighter aircraft with Russia. Sources from Ministry of Defense said that India had sought some more clarity from the Russian side during a meeting held between defense ministers of both sides in New Delhi last week. India wants specific details pertaining to technology transfer and distribution of work in the joint venture.

“We have already committed to the FGFA, but we have only 15% of the work share and are paying 50% of development cost. With Russians and Chinese opting for SU-35 and many others too, and India carrying on with FGFA in which Russia has lost interest is not a very good idea,” said Chopra.

Both countries had signed a primary agreement in 2013 but due to some differences, a research and development (R&D) contract for the FGFA has yet to take shape. Currently, the Indian Air Force has 33 squadrons of fighter jets against the mandated 42 squadrons required for a simultaneous war scenario with China and Pakistan.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18577
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 03 Nov 2016 16:15

New Engines, Weapons for Russian Stealth Fighter

Russia’s T-50 fifth-generation fighter aircraft will enter flight-test with new engines in the fourth quarter of next year. The Sukhoi-designed jet is also known as Pakfa (Russian acronym for Perspective Aviation Complex of Frontal Aviation). More detail about the T-50’s weapons fit has recently emerged.

The Pakfa has been flying since 2010 on the power of NPO Saturn “Item 117” engines developing 14.5 tonnes (32,000 pounds) thrust and derived from the “Item 117S” engines found on the Sukhoi Su-35 Advanced Flanker. But the new engines are a fresh design designated “Item 30” that has already begun bench testing, according to industry sources. Their thrust is likely to be between 15 and 20 tonnes (33,000-44,000 pounds)

Speaking to the media last month, Alexander Artyukhov, general manager at United Engine, said that remaining development work on the new engine “will be done in the period of 2018to 2020, with state acceptance trials set for 2020.” Russian industry previously developed a 20-tonne-thrust fighter engine for the MiG 1.42 technology demonstrator that flew briefly in 2000. But it never entered production.

Meanwhile, a ninth prototype Pakfa has flown and is now undergoing “complex avionics testing” and weapons firing trials. Russian air force commander Gen. Viktor Bondarev told journalists recently that the military is ready to sign a contract next year for five aircraft to be delivered in 2018. Deputy defense minister for equipment procurement Gen. Yuri Borisov said the ministry is going to award an initial order “for at least one squadron” of Pakfa aircraft next year, powered by the existing “Item 117” engines.

United Aircraft (UAC) president Yuri Slyusar called the Pakfa development “one of UAC’s priority programs.” He continued, “If we succeed with Pakfa development, this will help us maintain competitiveness in the domain of frontal aviation in the long term.” Slyusar expects the initial order to be for 12 production airframes, adding to the planned total of 12 prototypes that would remain with the industry and testing establishments.

The Tactical Missile Corporation (TRV) recently revealed that it is working on 12 types of missile for the aircraft, targeting completion of trials on six types by next year and the remaining six by 2020. These include new air-to-air missiles: the RVV-MD for close-in combat, and RVV-SD for beyond-visual-range engagements. Compared with previous-generation models, they feature new homing systems with higher sensitivity and resistance to jamming. The RVV-MD employs a new twin-band infrared seeker with multi-element photo-receiver and digital signal processing. These innovations will double the distance of target acquisition compared to the previous-generation Vympel R-73E, while enlarging the missile’s seeking angles by 30percent. The RVV-SD, which is a further evolution of in-service RVV-AE, features improved aerodynamics, a higher-power emitter and a more sensitive active radar homing head than its predecessor. The missile’s software has been “completely reworked” to enable a 35-percent increase in the maximum firing range and improved capabilities in defeating aerial targets by executing 12g maneuvers.

Air-to-ground weapons slated for the Pakfa include the Kh-38ME missile line of modular designs that allow for employment of different guidance systems and warheads. The Kh-38MLE version comes with a laser homing; the Kh-38MTE with a thermal imager; and the Kh-38MAE with an active radar seeker. There is also a Kh-38MKE version with satellite-aided homing.

In addition to the KAB-500SE guided bomb with Glonass homing, which was combat-proved in Syria, the Pakfa may also use the much lighter (250kg) KAB-250LG-E with a similar homing system.

Furthermore, the Pakfa will carry OFZAB-500 “splinter/high-explosive/incendiary” and the ODAB-500PVM vacuum bomb. Examples of these munitions have been manufactured for testing.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35193
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 03 Nov 2016 23:58

Every time India feels some new features/component are needed the Russians are smart saying we just finished the design phase.. come join the testing phase.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Gyan » 04 Nov 2016 00:56

rohitvats wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Yes, Guruji. If we get a significant portion of the R&D work at India, it will be a great thing for us.


The recent news of Russian arms exporters paying 100 million Euros to a London based middle-man actually explains a lot that is wrong with our defense acquisition.

Question is - why would Russians pay bribe because more often than not, they're the only solution provider in their category? Also, why do others pay a bribe? Apart from the obvious of winning the contract for your party, I think there are multiple levels involved here.

1. Apart from cases where IA has clear-cut requirement, I think there are cases where agents of weapons manufacturers influence the Services to create a specific requirement. If the Acceptance of Necessity is accorded for this weapon system, the RFP will of course be literally tailor-made for such a system.

2. Other is the more straight-forward method - Genuine requirement exists, RFP is issued and it tends to favor a particular system. Reminds me of example in General V.K. Singh's autobiography - The tender for ULWH was literally tailor-made for Singapore Kinetics Pegasus gun. But for SK getting embroiled in OFB controversy, the gun would've gone through. When V.K. Singh assumed office, he pitched for M-777 and asked the Defense Secretary to modify the GSOR which had components not relevant to such a weapon system. The DS refused and that is how we heard reports for M-777 failing GSQR requirements.

3. The other high level avenue of corruption is the loose framing of the contracts - this gives an opportunity to the vendors to not fill their part of commitments like genuine Off-set investments as well as milk the contract for 'additional' work.

4. Slow production rate at OFB or other PSU - I've a strong sense that in many cases, the delays in production at OFBs and other PSU like HAL are deliberate. Because any delay in manufacture automatically leads to direct orders from Russians or OEM. Su-30 production at HAL and T-90 production at Avadi are two very important case in points.

IMO, Russians pay bribe for point no. 3 and no.4 above.

There are deliberate inefficiencies built into our procurement system to aid in corruption on massive scale.


Are you trying to steal my lines? :rotfl: :rotfl:

wig
BRFite
Posts: 1357
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby wig » 05 Nov 2016 09:45

a senior IAF official speaks on China’s new stealth fighter
Western Air Command chief Air Marshal SB Deo (pic) on Friday downplayed the unveiling of the J-20 stealth fighter by China this week
“As stealth features go, we don't know how far this aircraft is capable. From its design, it appears that only certain parts employ radar evading features. While the front part incorporates some stealth features, the rear portion seems vulnerable,” he said

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 19084.html

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16193
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2016 06:35

But it flies! While we scornfully deride it so does the F-35 also display non-stealth with a great hot bum visible from the rear.The F-35 with its bum on heat is entering service steadily despite the drawback.The IAF wants perfect fighters from the start forgetting what we used to fly with in previous wars and how we thrashed Pak.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Gyan » 06 Nov 2016 11:00

On this stealth criteria, no production fighter aircraft in the world has stealth. IAF Always wants super best. Either aliens can supply it or 1960s Hawk will also do.

nrshah
BRFite
Posts: 545
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 16:36

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby nrshah » 07 Nov 2016 12:16

Philip wrote:But it flies! While we scornfully deride it so does the F-35 also display non-stealth with a great hot bum visible from the rear.The F-35 with its bum on heat is entering service steadily despite the drawback.The IAF wants perfect fighters from the start forgetting what we used to fly with in previous wars and how we thrashed Pak.


So does LCA...but we don't see such gracious attitude from users with it.
At least on PAK FA we are committed while nothing on home grown

Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3387
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Paul » 07 Nov 2016 14:20

5G threat to India is overrated. We have a 5 year window to make a decision on PAKFA or F35. In that time we should work on getting more LCAs and other aircraft to build up quantity.

5G is the tip of the spear which is not needed for now. For now, the Rafale and SUs are more than enough to take on the Sino Paki threat in our neighbourhood. They need to be the tip of the spear......

Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3387
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Paul » 07 Nov 2016 14:30

Russians may have made a mistake by not tying the S400 sale to PAKFA. Now with Rafale and S400 we can build a solid A2/AD defence in North India.

Let them sweat it out. We need to focus on building mass...not quality.

wig
BRFite
Posts: 1357
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby wig » 07 Nov 2016 15:16

news on the Japanese stealth fighter, X2

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/0 ... CBMSC197IU

Japan on Friday became the fourth country to test-fly its own stealth jet, creating momentum to upgrade a lackluster domestic aerospace industry at a time when China continues to agitate in the region.

According to the Defense Ministry, the Advanced Technology Demonstrator, called X2, took off from Nagoya airport in Aichi Prefecture at 8:47 a.m. Friday morning. The demonstrator, which will undergo a further two years of testing before a decision is made on whether to develop a homegrown next-generation stealth fighter, flew about 15 kilometers and touched down at the Air Self-Defense Force’s Gifu Air Field at 9:13 a.m.

“The maiden flight was significant to secure the necessary capability for a next-generation fighter jet,” Defense Minister Gen Nakatani told reporters in Tokyo after the flight. “We can expect technological innovation in the aerospace industry as well as application of that technology in different fields.”

During World War II, Japan’s aerospace industry led the global competition with its Zero fighter. But since the end of the war, the nation’s technology has lagged behind and it has instead been buying fighter jets from the United States, such as the fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II.

Yet Japan started the ¥39 billion demonstrator project in 2009 to preserve its withering aerospace industry, aiming both to keep up with latest defense capabilities and, ultimately, sell Japanese arms overseas.

As a result, the X2 engines are made by IHI Corp. and its fuselage is developed by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The demonstrator is also equipped with locally developed stealth technology, including material designed to deflect radar and minimize the so-called radar cross-section of detectability.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18577
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 10 Nov 2016 11:17

T-50 (PAK FA) outline. Orange-radar stations (not all :wink: ), pink-weapon bays via

https://twitter.com/RSS_40/status/796068601635676164

Image


JTull
BRFite
Posts: 1924
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JTull » 14 Nov 2016 11:23

That roundel and flag?

JayS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2016 15:21

JTull wrote:That roundel and flag?

4.99Gen wonly.. :lol: :lol:

JTull
BRFite
Posts: 1924
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JTull » 15 Nov 2016 01:39

Photoshopped, hmmm!

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 829
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 15 Nov 2016 02:19

Its well known PhotShopped image.
Its take the Cope India Exercise 2004 image of a Su-30K Landing or Taking off and places the PAK FA in there.

It was first used by Ajai Shukla to push for refocusing on the PAK-FA .

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19980
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Prem » 22 Nov 2016 00:50

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=39330
India's PAK-FA will be superior to the Russian T-50 and Chinese J-20 :: Chinese Media

India's new fifth generation stealth fighter will be superior in key aspects to Russia's PAK FA T-50 from which it's derived, and will also have the added advantage of being able to fire the newest iteration of the fearsome BrahMos cruise missile, the BrahMos NG.And as the PAK FA is already superior to China's Chengdu J-20 low observable fighter, this means the Indian stealth jet will also be superior to the J-20.Indian media reports said India's as yet unnamed stealth fighter will include a total of 43 improvements over the PAK FA T-50, making it superior in many key aspects to the Russian fighter, of which only six have been produced because they cost over $100 million apiece.That's far too expensive for a battered Russian economy still crippled by Western sanctions triggered by Russia's illegal annexation of the Crimea in 2014.Under a co-development deal, India will develop one prototype while Russia will develop another. The Indian version will be a two-seat fighter manned by a pilot and a Weapon Systems Operator. The Russian version will be a traditional single seat stealth fighter like the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II.India wants its indigenous stealth fighter jet to become operational with the Indian Air Force before 2025. It plans to build as many as 127 stealth fighters.India's Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project will be developed and produced by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at its facility in Nashik at an estimated cost of $25 billion."The agreement has been completed on our end; we are ready to sign it. It is now down to the Indian side. There are some formalities to figure out, but I think it will be signed by the end of this year," said Sergei Chemezov, CEO of Russian weapons maker Rostech Corporation.A significant advantage to the Indian stealth fighter will be its ability to loft and launch BrahMos-NG (Next Generation), a lighter, smaller but deadlier version of the original BrahMos built to destroy enemy warships.Also called mini-BrahMos, this new version will be 50 percent lighter than the original version but will be just as fast at Mach 3.5 (4,300 km/h). Expected to become operational after 2018, BrahMos-NG will have a far smaller radar cross section or RCS than its predecessor, making it far more difficult to locate and destroy.The SU-30MKI will be able to carry three BrahMos-NGs while the other combat aircraft will carry one each. It's not known how many BrahMos-NGs India's new stealth fighter will carry.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5234
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 22 Nov 2016 00:53

If it costs only 100 million to build each PAKFA prototype, it is two thumbs up to the Russians.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3147
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 Nov 2016 05:31

Indranil wrote:If it costs only 100 million to build each PAKFA prototype, it is two thumbs up to the Russians.


The rest will come from us. And when it arrives (if ever), it will cost 3x. And, the spares and components.....

"That results in massive wastage of metal. For example, a 486 kg titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg.

Furthermore, the contract stipulates that standard components like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets - a total of 7,146 items - must all be sourced from Russia.

The reason for this, explain HAL officials, is that manufacturing sophisticated raw materials like titanium extrusions in India is not economically viable for the tiny quantities needed for Su-30MKI fighters."

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 138_1.html

If we want to kill AMCA, this Russian FGFA is the best way to to do it.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 46104
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ramana » 22 Nov 2016 06:03

Cosmo_R, I can see the forging being whittled from 27 kg to 3.1 kg due to machine allowances. Most of the raw stock will have surface cracks etc., and need to get to the core metal. I don't know about the tail component. It could be a product of the layout that ends up using the large bar/plate stock.


Standard nuts, bolts and screws are not enough. They are the most failure prone hardware. If you don't want planes falling from the sky I would not cut corners there.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15392
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 22 Nov 2016 06:55

Cosmo,

I very much doubt the contracts for the FGFA (very glad the public and all identifying it as such and not add some other acronym) will be solid. It may still have odds and ends that one used to complaining about will find things to complain about. But this plane should be good to go.

Also, I just cannot see the death of the Indian aerospace industry. Nither the LCA or the AMCA.I would expect some of the content from the FGFA and the AMCA to cross pollinate. In fact I said this long back, the AMCA will be superior to the FGFA.

rohiths
BRFite
Posts: 374
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 21:51

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby rohiths » 22 Nov 2016 09:41

FGFA is another big scam. Russians are just hyping up capabilities of this plane. We don't even have a working prototype of the AESA radar, the radar cross section is higher than that of LCA, the progress on the engine is patchy. AFAIK it is not heavy on composites so it will struggle on thrust to weight ratio for 5th gen benchmarks. The India specific changes will take atleast 5 years to materialize and billions of dollars more.

If I was the defence minister, I would scrap this and buy 144 Rafales to compensate for FGFA.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16193
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Nov 2016 11:55

At 3 times the price! Madness. If the FGFA's price is less than the Rafale it would be a veritable coup.However,the proof of the aircraft is in the existing and the IAF must get its hands on the promised 3 prototypes first after which the contours of the desi derivative will be fashioned.For immediate requirements until the desi fighter emerges,two sqds of the std. PAK-FA type will be needed.These may have some indigenous eqpt. aboard as found in the MKI. It will keep our qualitative edge healthy until the definitive FGFA arrives post 2025.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3147
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 Nov 2016 18:54

ramana wrote:Cosmo_R, I can see the forging being whittled from 27 kg to 3.1 kg due to machine allowances. Most of the raw stock will have surface cracks etc., and need to get to the core metal. I don't know about the tail component. It could be a product of the layout that ends up using the large bar/plate stock.


Standard nuts, bolts and screws are not enough. They are the most failure prone hardware. If you don't want planes falling from the sky I would not cut corners there.


Ramana, agreed about not cutting corners. My point however, is that if we are importing nuts, bolts and screws what is the point of assembling the planes under a 'deep ToT'? What have we actually learned from the license we purchased?

Similarly, why are we importing titanium bars and plates and then whittling them down when instead we could just have imported the finished items as inventory? Price-wise, the unit costs would be much lower. What will learn from machining titanium parts that are SU 30 specific? Is this skill transferable to other projects down the line?

If a run of 300+ SU-30s is too small to support a supply chain in India as the article implies, we'll never have the ecosystem we seek. Even 300 LCAs won't support its ecosystem. We'll be starting from ground zero unlike Irkutsk's larger base.

As to the FGFA killing the AMCA, I mean it in financial terms. There's no way we can fund Rafales, the SU 30 upgrade, 300 LCAs, AMCA, FGFA—not to mention the gap filler 'single-engined' fighter. That's just the fighters. We also have tankers, trainers and transport aircraft to induct. In the end, the IAF will be told to choose and it will choose what will come first given its budget. Perhaps that's why it was making such a noise about the FGFA vs. Rafale

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19980
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Prem » 27 Nov 2016 05:01


Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2141
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karthik S » 27 Nov 2016 05:34

Beautiful sight!

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2436
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Nov 2016 05:50

+1 - say what you will, this is a Beeeeyouteefool bird!

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 2808
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 02 Dec 2016 22:40

New engine being designed for 5th generation Russian fighter aircraft
https://rbth.com/defence/2016/11/25/new-engine-being-designed-for-5th-generation-russian-fighter-aircraft_651123

Russia develops advanced anti-radar missile for 5th-generation PAK FA jet
http://rbth.com/news/2016/11/07/russia-develops-advanced-anti-radar-missile-for-5th-generation-pak-fa-jet_645599

^^the missile in question from the above article...
A Kh-58UShK missile model with fins closed to fit in the internal weapons bay of a T-50/PAK-FA
http://www.janes.com/images/assets/773/45773/p1568578.jpg

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 652
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Guddu » 03 Dec 2016 21:36

Ajai Shukla reporting "US Congress to enshrine US-India defence ties in US law"...Russia badly out of funds, France a small socialist nation with small budget, China rapidly rising.....it seems to me F-35 is in the cards. The F-16 is coming and the F-35 will follow..seems crystal clear to me.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5026
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 03 Dec 2016 21:42

The language in the NDAA is definitely going to strengthen ties but I don't think this will affect the PAKFA participation. Anyways it has cleared the house and will be taken up in the senate next week and will clear easily. Appropriators will obviously have to approve it again, and then the POTUS has to sign it.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18577
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 03 Dec 2016 22:02

Guddu wrote:Ajai Shukla reporting "US Congress to enshrine US-India defence ties in US law"...Russia badly out of funds, France a small socialist nation with small budget, China rapidly rising.....it seems to me F-35 is in the cards. The F-16 is coming and the F-35 will follow..seems crystal clear to me.


My Response here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5094&p=2083751#p2083751

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2436
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Dec 2016 23:41

I expect that the su-30mki will not see additional orders from iaf if teen series make it. But I do expect a direct pakfa order of couple of sqds before an pakfa-mki/fgfa production line starts at nasik replacing the ranbha.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18577
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 18 Dec 2016 12:16

First pictures of the T-50-8

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/87722/

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18577
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 18 Dec 2016 12:23


tushar_m
BRFite
Posts: 662
Joined: 22 Sep 2010 21:07

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby tushar_m » 20 Dec 2016 08:39

8th Prototype of Russian T-50 stealth fighter

(CNN)The world is getting a fresh look at Russia's newest stealth fighter jet after images were posted on the manufacturer's website.

Most of the photos show the twin-engine Sukhoi T-50 jet operating from runways on a snow-covered airfield, although a location was not given in a report on RT.com, which surfaced the pictures on Sunday.

According to the metadata on the photos released by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant, the images were taken last Thursday.
Russian media reported in October that the ninth prototype of the T-50 would be undergoing trials later this year.
The single-seat T-50 is Russia's first stealth fighter.

It is seen as a rival to US F-22 and F-35 stealth jets and China's J-20 stealth fighter, which was shown to the public for the first time in November.
The new Russian jet carries a price tag of $50 million, :shock: :shock: :shock: according to a report from state-sponsored Sputnik News.
Sputnik said the T-50 came "at a bargain basement price and with far greater capabilities when compared to the budgetary eyesore that is America's F-35 stealth fighter."
The F-35, which is just entering US and allied forces, is expected to cost about $135 million per unit.
"Not only does the T-50 have superior maneuverability compared to the F-35, but it also travels at a 30% higher speed with a range over 2,000 miles farther," Sputnik said.
Russia media has also boasted about the T-50's 30mm cannon.
"The cannon's one-of-a-kind automatic fire system enables it to fire up to 1,800 rounds per minute -- the best such performance for this type of weapon around," Sputnik reported after a test of the weapon in September.

"The ... cannon can fire blast-fragmentation, incendiary and armor-piercing tracer rounds and is effective against even lightly armored ground, sea and aerial targets.
"The cannon can hit ground targets up to 1,800 meters (1.1 miles) away and aerial targets at a maximum distance of 1,200 meters (.75 miles)," Sputnik said.
The T-50 is expected to go into mass production in 2017 with a squadron to be bought by the Russian military in 2018, Sputnik reported earlier this year.
A version of the jet is also expected to be bought by the Indian Air Force.




So we can get 1 sqd flyaway condition in less then 1 billion including spares & arms !!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

tushar_m
BRFite
Posts: 662
Joined: 22 Sep 2010 21:07

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby tushar_m » 20 Dec 2016 08:41

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 Dec 14
FGFA development contract with Russia will be signed soon.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ashishvikas, Google [Bot], rvishwakarm, tsarkar, vishal, Zynda and 30 guests