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PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 04 Jan 2017 17:06

Delhi Wants to Ascertain Production, Export Right of Russia-India FGFA Project

New Delhi (Sputnik) — India and Russia are expected to sign the detailed design and development contract of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in the next two to three months. This will enable Moscow to retain its position as the prime supplier of Indian Air Force's fighting strength.

India has signaled that negotiations on R&D are almost final except for some issues related to rights over export to third countries. "Secondary round i.e. R & D round is almost finalized except some issues related to the future of the aircraft. Because, when R&D phase will get over and you are not able to produce and sell, what is the point in developing? Whether we will have right to produce because there will be some IPRs over which Russia will have claimed. All these important aspects are being clarified properly," says Manohar Parrikar, India's Defense Minister in New Delhi.

Sources told Sputnik that a Russian delegation is arriving in New Delhi in the next few weeks to discuss all these aspects. The Indian government feels that before embarking on commercial production, every issue needs to be sorted out such as the aircraft's stealth capabilities or the right to export right. Parrikar said two to three months does not hold much importance for the project with a time frame of 10-15 years. Currently, both the countries are not discussing the number of aircraft to be produced under the project.

"We are trying to ascertain quantum of stealth, transfer of technology and whether we will be able to manufacture and sell jointly. All these aspects are being discussed because when we invest huge money ($5-6 billion) you are commercially not only producing for ourselves but considering exports as well. Secondly, stealth aspects should also be in conformity. So all these technical aspects are being looked into before going forward," Parrikar said.


The Russian-Indian FGFA has stealth capabilities and is based on the Russian T-50 prototype jet. The FGFA project came about following the signing of a Russian-Indian cooperation agreement on October 18, 2007. Both the countries signed the primary contract in December 2010. India has spent $242 million on the primary contract.

The Indian Air Force has proposed building an indigenous FGFA called the Advanced Medium Combat Stealth Aircraft (AMCSA), but it still remains at the conceptual stage. Sweden's SAAB has offered to help in the development of AMCSA but the Indian establishment is yet to respond. Meanwhile, China exhibited its fifth generation stealth fighter aircraft J-20 in November this year. The J-20 is expected to provide long range, hard-to-detect strike capacity to the PLA Air Force from 2018 onwards.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby kit » 04 Jan 2017 20:37

tushar_m wrote:8th Prototype of Russian T-50 stealth fighter

(CNN)The world is getting a fresh look at Russia's newest stealth fighter jet after images were posted on the manufacturer's website.

Most of the photos show the twin-engine Sukhoi T-50 jet operating from runways on a snow-covered airfield, although a location was not given in a report on RT.com, which surfaced the pictures on Sunday.

According to the metadata on the photos released by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant, the images were taken last Thursday.
Russian media reported in October that the ninth prototype of the T-50 would be undergoing trials later this year.
The single-seat T-50 is Russia's first stealth fighter.

It is seen as a rival to US F-22 and F-35 stealth jets and China's J-20 stealth fighter, which was shown to the public for the first time in November.
The new Russian jet carries a price tag of $50 million, :shock: :shock: :shock: according to a report from state-sponsored Sputnik News.
Sputnik said the T-50 came "at a bargain basement price and with far greater capabilities when compared to the budgetary eyesore that is America's F-35 stealth fighter."
The F-35, which is just entering US and allied forces, is expected to cost about $135 million per unit.
"Not only does the T-50 have superior maneuverability compared to the F-35, but it also travels at a 30% higher speed with a range over 2,000 miles farther," Sputnik said.
Russia media has also boasted about the T-50's 30mm cannon.
"The cannon's one-of-a-kind automatic fire system enables it to fire up to 1,800 rounds per minute -- the best such performance for this type of weapon around," Sputnik reported after a test of the weapon in September.

"The ... cannon can fire blast-fragmentation, incendiary and armor-piercing tracer rounds and is effective against even lightly armored ground, sea and aerial targets.
"The cannon can hit ground targets up to 1,800 meters (1.1 miles) away and aerial targets at a maximum distance of 1,200 meters (.75 miles)," Sputnik said.
The T-50 is expected to go into mass production in 2017 with a squadron to be bought by the Russian military in 2018, Sputnik reported earlier this year.
A version of the jet is also expected to be bought by the Indian Air Force.




So we can get 1 sqd flyaway condition in less then 1 billion including spares & arms !!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:



that's certainly only the aircraft price .. without weapons spares and supporting equipment

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Hitesh » 04 Jan 2017 21:09

The air intakes... Are they in a S - curved position so they can hide the fan blades from being detected on radar?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2017 00:22

Cosmo_R wrote:
ramana wrote:Cosmo_R, I can see the forging being whittled from 27 kg to 3.1 kg due to machine allowances. Most of the raw stock will have surface cracks etc., and need to get to the core metal. I don't know about the tail component. It could be a product of the layout that ends up using the large bar/plate stock.


Standard nuts, bolts and screws are not enough. They are the most failure prone hardware. If you don't want planes falling from the sky I would not cut corners there.


Ramana, agreed about not cutting corners. 1.0 My point however, is that if we are importing nuts, bolts and screws what is the point of assembling the planes under a 'deep ToT'? What have we actually learned from the license we purchased?

2.0 Similarly, why are we importing titanium bars and plates and then whittling them down when instead we could just have imported the finished items as inventory? Price-wise, the unit costs would be much lower. What will learn from machining titanium parts that are SU 30 specific? Is this skill transferable to other projects down the line?

3.0 If a run of 300+ SU-30s is too small to support a supply chain in India as the article implies, we'll never have the ecosystem we seek. Even 300 LCAs won't support its ecosystem. We'll be starting from ground zero unlike Irkutsk's larger base.

As to the FGFA killing the AMCA, I mean it in financial terms. 4.0There's no way we can fund Rafales, the SU 30 upgrade, 300 LCAs, AMCA, FGFA—not to mention the gap filler 'single-engined' fighter. That's just the fighters. We also have tankers, trainers and transport aircraft to induct. In the end, the IAF will be told to choose and it will choose what will come first given its budget. Perhaps that's why it was making such a noise about the FGFA vs. Rafale


I added numbers to your points and will reply to them as they merit it.
1.0) Aerospace grade fasteners are very specialty item. Even in US only one or two fastener makers are there. Titanium alloy fasteners and its compatriot high strength(>160ksi) alloy steel for grounding are not run of the mill Sundaram Fasteners make. So due to the limited run imports have to happen.

2.0) Importing titanium bars and plates is raw stock. Nowadays mfg. cost is equal to that of raw materials. So by whittling them down from bar stock, India is adding value to the metal and cutting costs. Machining Ti is a transferable skill. Its the basis for aerospace structures.

3.0) Yes 300 planes run is very small and both IAF and MoD have to understand cannot sustain an industrial base. IAF needs to cut down on multiple types in penny packets and go for large numbers to achieve a viable supply chain. Also think of supplying the planes to neighboring countries and allies : Asia, Africa, South America. Run has to be a minimum 1000-1200 planes. And NaMo is trying to achieve second aircraft mfg supplier to create a viable aerospace supply chain infrastructure.

4.) Chanakya fifth axiom is if you want peace prepare for war. So its expensive. If India doesn't do all that then the nuke threshold gets lowered. We don't want that.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 05 Jan 2017 12:53

I can't see our modest requirement of the FGFA,which will differ from the std. Russian version,enough to set up a massive manufacturing plant here,even for export. Nasik will simply assemble and then progressively increase the % of desi parts as it has been doing with Ru aircraft for decades.
How can we be a global player in the world market for fighter aircraft with so much competition unless we develop and produce our own affordable designs like the LCA? The second production line,slanted to building US legacy aircraft will be worthless after the IAF's run is complete. Who will want in the IAF these legacy US birds after the first Paki stealth fighter from China flies in Paki colours? Even the news that we're ready to start the AMCA programme ,without an engine manufactured here,or radar,or most of the air-launched weaponry,means that it will be decades before that bird arrives in Indian/IAF roundels! Looking at the AMCA design too,there seems to be little space in the fuselage for an internal weapons bay that cana ccomodate even 4 AAMs/ASMs. Hung below its wings,stealth goes to pot.

Instead of acquiring a legacy fighter that the west and US are retiring,we should strike a deal with any nation willing to help us accelerate LCA development and production.,so that at least 24-30 aircraft can be built annually.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Kartik » 13 Jan 2017 00:31

Russian PAK-FAs to be transferred to aerospace forces later this year

The Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) has announced that it will take delivery of its first five Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA fifth-generation fighters later this year.

Although the VKS did not specify in its announcement on 6 January when in 2017 the transfer will take place, the move will mark the end of the company trials programme for the aircraft, and the beginning of the two-stage state-joint trials programme.

In the first stage, the industry pilots that have been flying the T-50 thus far will train a cadre of military pilots on the aircraft, with the second stage of test programme flights being conducted entirely by these VKS pilots.

Current flight testing by Sukhoi of the initial T-50 aircraft has been conducted at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (LII) in Zhukovskiy. According to Russian specialists familiar with the process, these five T-50s will now be transferred to the Chkalov VKS State Flight Test Centre base No. 929 at Akhtubinsk for the joint-state trials programme.

Transfer to the VKS is also a marker for the next stage of the contract for the T-50 and the process of moving to series production of the aircraft.


What exactly is left for India to do on this program? With completion of company trials, 99% of the development program will be over and what will be left will be state trials and some certification related trials. It seems pointless to invest in the PAK-FA development program now, and instead they should only be looking to develop India-specific items for the airplane and to jointly work on the testing and certification of those. And then seek ToT and a local assembly line to replace that of the Su-30MKI in Nashik.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 13 Jan 2017 00:36

^^^Money for nothing

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Jan 2017 00:45

Kartik wrote:Russian PAK-FAs to be transferred to aerospace forces later this year

What exactly is left for India to do on this program? With completion of company trials, 99% of the development program will be over and what will be left will be state trials and some certification related trials. It seems pointless to invest in the PAK-FA development program now, and instead they should only be looking to develop India-specific items for the airplane and to jointly work on the testing and certification of those. And then seek ToT and a local assembly line to replace that of the Su-30MKI in Nashik.


What exactly, I do not know - a question that I had asked years ago.

However, India had identified some 40+ mods - way back. Looks like the Russians incorporated some of them into the PAK-FA, but there are a boat load yet to be done. What exactly - is still the question.

Then there is the 5th Gen engine that I have no idea where it stands. IAF was very clear that the current engine will not do. That too is old news.

Then we have Indian replacements for this and that, much like the MKI. Computers, displays, etc.

The last I read from a week or two ago Parrikar is wrapping up about IP and export agreements.

All said and done I would expect the FGFA to be very different than the PAK-FA. Outside of a few things coming from Russia it should be mostly an Indian product.

I *think* I understand why India is investing a few billions in R&D. Have yet to figure out why Russia is investing the same amount.

The bigger question I have is the impact on the AMCA. Positive or negative.






How thrilled is the RuAF about the PAK-FA? My feel is they are not too thrilled.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Kartik » 18 Jan 2017 05:15

Russia's new stealth fighter starts new test phase

Russia’s T-50 PAKFA fifth-generation stealth fighter is about to undergo flight testing by military pilots for the first time. The Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) said on January 6 that it would take delivery this year of five of the aircraft that have been flight-tested by Sukhoi at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (LII) in Zhukovsky. But the VKS, which since last year has encompassed the Russian Air Force and the Russian Aerospace Defense Forces, made no further mention of any order for production aircraft.

The five T-50s will now be transferred to the Chkalov VKS State Flight Test Centre base No. 929 at Akhtubinsk. Once at the Chkalov center, the aircraft will be put through a two-stage program, “State-Joint Flight Testing,” that allows for military pilots to gradually take over the validation of the aircraft. This joint testing program is in theory the last process that the prototype aircraft would undergo before the go-ahead is given for the T-50 to enter series production.
..

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby sohamn » 18 Jan 2017 05:22

Russia never links life cycle cost to the price tag and hence you see $50 million. In reality the cost of this aircraft will be over $100 million over its lifetime for sure.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 18 Jan 2017 08:25



The Achilles heel of this plane is the engine. It should come in a year or so and take a few more to be integrated - some claim it could be as late as 2025. Even then the product will not be the latest and greatest. Due to a number of metals that are new, a lot have not been certified. So, even if the engine is mated with the PAK-FA, the "real" engine - certified with all components could be 2030ish. I think they are paying for the sins of Yeltsin - lack of research for a decade or two, due to a lack of funds.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Zynda » 18 Jan 2017 08:32

^^I can't find the source, but I remember hearing that there will be two phases of Pak-Fa development. The initial or current phase will see entry (perhaps in limited numbers just like LCA Mk.1) of current config of Pak-Fa. The phase 2, which may take around 2023-25, will see an improved version with 5th gen engines. This was quoted by a Russian aero expert on some Youtube video.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 18 Jan 2017 19:36

Xcpts from Sputnik:

Top Gun 2016: Russia's Super-Advanced Fighter Jet Enters Service This Year

RUSSIA 13:39 04.02.2016 Russia has developed a fifth generation fighter jet, the T-50, which is due to enter service by the year-end and will be equipped with a brand-new aircraft cruise missile, media reports said. © FLICKR/ PAVEL VANKA Su-35S at Its Finest: Experts Explain What Gives New Russian Fighter an Edge in Syria The fifth generation T-50 fighter jet, also known as the PAK FA, is set to enter service with the Russian Armed Forces later this year. The plane is expected to be equipped with highly advanced X-74M2 cruise missiles, according to the Russian military news network Zvezda. The X-74M2 is a supersonic missile which has a speed of more than Mach 4, which means that the missile is capable of reaching targets in just few seconds, preempting the possibility of its detection by enemy aircraft radar systems, according to Zvezda.

"It is like a lightning dagger blow you can never avoid," Zvezda said, adding that by carrying such a missile on board, the T-50 "nullifies all attempts by NATO to achieve air superiority." Apart from the X-74M2, the T-50 will be equipped with another sophisticated missile, the X-58USHK, which will be placed inside the fighter's fuselage. This anti-radar missile will have a flight speed exceeding Mach 3.5, Zvezda said, touting the X-58USHK's characteristics, including its relatively small size. Additionally, the T-50 will be equipped with the tactical X-35UE air-to-ship missile, which weighs about 145 kilograms and is capable of hitting targets at a distance of 260 kilometers while remaining invisible to radars. © FLICKR/ POTER.SIMON Su-34: Russia’s Ultimate ISIL-Crushing Machine For air-to-air combat, the T-50 is expected to carry four beyond-visual-range missiles in its two main weapons bays and two short-range missiles in its wing root weapons bays. The T-50 is a single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter, and the first operational aircraft in Russian service to use stealth technology. It was designed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau. The aircraft will be used to achieve air superiority and assist in ground attacks. Besides its ability to fly at speeds well above Mach 2, the T-50 boasts other, even more important, features such as invisibility to radar and powerful weapons. It is equipped with advanced avionics and a cutting-edge phased array radar system.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/russia/20160204 ... -missiles/

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 18 Jan 2017 21:03

^^^^^^

Not that it matters, but that article is from Feb, 2016

I recall trying to find info on "X-74M2 cruise missiles", I could not then and still cannot.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Zynda » 21 Jan 2017 21:04

Pak-Fa undergoing IFR tests.


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby kit » 21 Jan 2017 21:20

NRao wrote:^^^^^^

Not that it matters, but that article is from Feb, 2016

I recall trying to find info on "X-74M2 cruise missiles", I could not then and still cannot.


Boss ..its the K-74M2 or the Vympel R 73

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby kit » 21 Jan 2017 21:23

NRao wrote:
Kartik wrote:Russian PAK-FAs to be transferred to aerospace forces later this year

What exactly is left for India to do on this program? With completion of company trials, 99% of the development program will be over and what will be left will be state trials and some certification related trials. It seems pointless to invest in the PAK-FA development program now, and instead they should only be looking to develop India-specific items for the airplane and to jointly work on the testing and certification of those. And then seek ToT and a local assembly line to replace that of the Su-30MKI in Nashik.


What exactly, I do not know - a question that I had asked years ago.

However, India had identified some 40+ mods - way back. Looks like the Russians incorporated some of them into the PAK-FA, but there are a boat load yet to be done. What exactly - is still the question.

Then there is the 5th Gen engine that I have no idea where it stands. IAF was very clear that the current engine will not do. That too is old news.

Then we have Indian replacements for this and that, much like the MKI. Computers, displays, etc.

The last I read from a week or two ago Parrikar is wrapping up about IP and export agreements.

All said and done I would expect the FGFA to be very different than the PAK-FA. Outside of a few things coming from Russia it should be mostly an Indian product.

I *think* I understand why India is investing a few billions in R&D. Have yet to figure out why Russia is investing the same amount.

The bigger question I have is the impact on the AMCA. Positive or negative.






How thrilled is the RuAF about the PAK-FA? My feel is they are not too thrilled.



i dont think it really matters to Ru AF .. they cant afford it now or tomorrow,, maybe much later when indian funds help in evolving it further down the line .. they recently ordered a fresh batch of 35s

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 21 Jan 2017 21:40

i dont think it really matters to Ru AF .. they cant afford it now or tomorrow,, maybe much later when indian funds help in evolving it further down the line .. they recently ordered a fresh batch of 35s


Even what they can afford seems to be lesser than the IAF. Which begs the question, what is it they want.

On the 35s, is it because they need them or to keep a line open?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Vivek K » 22 Jan 2017 12:06

Should India waste money on a weapon that will be developed with her funds and then sold to China? What is the point in investing in foreign industry? Invest locally. Acquire know how to close tech gaps!

Pak Fa will do nothing for advancement of Indian knowledge base.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 22 Jan 2017 12:33

^^ Tell that to Parrikar who is not just keen to JV it but also get production and export rights for FGFA :lol:

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby satya » 22 Jan 2017 18:10

Austin

PAKFA is not production ready . Parrikar sir has personally read its technical journey so far unlike st. Anthony complete reliance on instructions from above and advise/inputs from MoD with zero self study . If it comes in production earlier as russian news suggest then we will buy them off shelf . If not then we will not repeat sukhoi / rafale saga. Its a poker game .
only hope for russia is upa govt in 2019 .

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Vivek K » 23 Jan 2017 02:00

Austin wrote:^^ Tell that to Parrikar who is not just keen to JV it but also get production and export rights for FGFA :lol:


Like the exports of Brahmos to friendly countries!! I would recommend he call it a "Super Mirage"!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2017 02:02

Vivek saar, you grossly overestimate our current aircraft design capabilities.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 23 Jan 2017 06:16

Austin wrote:^^ Tell that to Parrikar who is not just keen to JV it but also get production and export rights for FGFA


From day one it has always been R&D, Design and Production. The disagreement (if I can call it that) has been on percentage of work distribution and , for whatever reason, IAF's reluctance to sign of on the final product.

Parrikar has revived the project, that seems to have been left for dead. I suspect it had more to do with oil from them and nothing to do with the plane itself (which is fine, that is part of the game).

Now Parrikar is nailing down the IP and therefore the export rights. From what little is out there he is bargaining for out right rights, not one based on partnership.

After all that I still think the engine will make or break this deal. As it stands now, I would not be surprised if India seeks an alternative on that front. And IF a deal can be reached with GE, on hit section, then the slide away from a Russian engine should be more likely.

From an IAF PoV, if this plane really was that great I would think they would have preferred it over the MKI. Also, the IAF is behind the AMCA , based on a report or two. So, I doubt the PAK-FA by itself is a good product. The FGFA should be difficult and better. But is it worth the $35 billion or being thrown around? Do not know.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 23 Jan 2017 07:45

NRao wrote:
Austin wrote:^^ Tell that to Parrikar who is not just keen to JV it but also get production and export rights for FGFA


From day one it has always been R&D, Design and Production. The disagreement (if I can call it that) has been on percentage of work distribution and , for whatever reason, IAF's reluctance to sign of on the final product.

Parrikar has revived the project, that seems to have been left for dead. I suspect it had more to do with oil from them and nothing to do with the plane itself (which is fine, that is part of the game).

Now Parrikar is nailing down the IP and therefore the export rights. From what little is out there he is bargaining for out right rights, not one based on partnership.

After all that I still think the engine will make or break this deal. As it stands now, I would not be surprised if India seeks an alternative on that front. And IF a deal can be reached with GE, on hit section, then the slide away from a Russian engine should be more likely.

From an IAF PoV, if this plane really was that great I would think they would have preferred it over the MKI. Also, the IAF is behind the AMCA , based on a report or two. So, I doubt the PAK-FA by itself is a good product. The FGFA should be difficult and better. But is it worth the $35 billion or being thrown around? Do not know.


Check Parrikar statement technical discussion is agreed and done , joint development work share is done , now negotiating for export rights and ipr
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 203573.cms

Officials who have been briefed on ongoing talks told ET that the FGFA programme in particular will yield rich dividends to India due to the quantum of technology on offer "From a preliminary documents that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared," the official said.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2017 08:40

Nobody else with a mature aircraft design capability will allow us to participate in their program. We can buy F-35, but that's it. We could join the Japanese or the Korean, but if you have a problem with PAKFA's technical merits but believe the latter two will deliver a more mature product, you should probably review your biases.

Fact is PAKFA lessons and components will short circuit the lead time of AMCA. DRDO/ADA/IAF all know this, and hence this project is of strategic importance. The two sides are bickering over what the Indian money can buy. That will be finalized soon.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 23 Jan 2017 09:07

so many choices

research and development platforms
Tejas Mk1 --> just wrapping up
Tejas Mk1A --> work in progress
Tejas Mk2 --> to be decided
AMCA --> to be decided
FGFA --> to be negotiated and charted

new/old platforms to be operationalised or re-operationalised
Jaguar - re-engine
Mig-27 decomming
SU-30 - plan and prepare for midlife upgrades
Rafael - Absorb and Operationalise
Single Engine Fighter - God .... help me whats happening in that space ? MMRCA 2.7 ?
tanker
more C130s
More choppers from Russia
Apache
Chinhooks


FGFA seems like a small blip when you see all that is going on and one feels likes giving it the second rate attention it sometimes gets.
However the choice to me seems the following ....

Fifth Gen Fighter
FGFA or AMCA

Where do we sink / invest / lay our money
Do we start our own journey with AMCA and be the masters of our destiny or leap frog China and Pak ?
Let me be very honest.

We have seen these countries run their own 5 gen Fighter programme

USA - developed multiple capable platform and then chose two.
USSR/Russia - developing on what looks to be capable platform
China - developed and stole and stole more to develop what look like will be come capable platforms (perhaps only one of them)
Japan - started, stoppped, ignored and now restarting thanks to the progress made by China
Korea - some dilly dallying as Japan but for different and $ reasons.
Sweden - academic paper
France - curbed and curtailed till end of rafael
UK - LOL
India - the programme commencement yet to take off.

I will be very honest, if we can hold Russians accountable , which is where it seems the Russians are finding it hard to deal with us. We shall reap benefits or be prudent with our money.
Follow this up with an operational model like the BrahMos and we could have a winner.

I am going to be very honest, we have much to learn and our nation yet to gain a lot of confidence in our MAKE abilities before we can really get there.
A partnership with Russia on FGFA is the way to go for now.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 23 Jan 2017 10:19

Indranil wrote:Nobody else with a mature aircraft design capability will allow us to participate in their program. We can buy F-35, but that's it. We could join the Japanese or the Korean, but if you have a problem with PAKFA's technical merits but believe the latter two will deliver a more mature product, you should probably review your biases.

Fact is PAKFA lessons and components will short circuit the lead time of AMCA. DRDO/ADA/IAF all know this, and hence this project is of strategic importance. The two sides are bickering over what the Indian money can buy. That will be finalized soon.


Exactly , No one will give us the TOT even at the level of MKI program even today much less any one giving us what we are negotiating for PAK-FA program , Even the generous French did not give us any TOT for Rafale and gave us a bill of USD 9 Billion

What we are doing with FGFA program is not just customising the aircraft for our needs but incorporating atleast 50 % Indian Made components and gettting access to 100 % design in the program that itself is a big plus , By Russian own admission FGFA will be superior to PAK-FA

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 366_1.html

The FGFA project will produce a state of the art fighter jet, and it will be the result of the work on Russia's most modern technology done by both Russian and Indian engineers and constructors," Chemezov said.

"As a fifth generation (fighter), it means fifth generation speed, ballistics and military equipment, avionics and stealth capabilities among other qualities," he said.

"It shall be on par with the capabilities of Russia's PAK-FA T-50 aircraft, a fifth-generation fighter, but as it will be designed in the next few years, it is likely to exceed it in some specifics," he added.

"Our technology is always developing," the Russia's top defence industry official said.


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2017 12:45

If we truly want a 5th-gen fighter,then the only option for us is the T-50/FGFA,acquired first to Ru MK-1 prod stds.Future aircraft after the first 2 sqds.just as was done with the SU-30 can then be developed into the definitive IAF version like the MKI. As well put,a BMos type JV partnership will work well.I would suggest that Dr.Pillai be called in to assist in the technical discussions and negotiations as he was vital to the success of BMos.His book explains it very well how such a model could be used for other weapon systems.

The spin-offs could be enormous affecting even the Tejas programme,where a proposed Mk-2 could include some 5th-gen tech and newer weaponry,which is supposed to come along with the FGFA/T-50. The sooner this deal is sealed the better,as the widening gap between the PLAAF and the IAF in numbers and fast closing gap in quality is alarming. The PAF is also likely to get in the near future,Chinese stealth fighters to augment its large numbers of JF-17s. It would be a major embarrassment if Pak is to get Chinese 5th-gen birds before or at the same time as India.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2017 12:50

Why do we have to get 2 squadrons of PAKFAs to start with?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 23 Jan 2017 15:46

Indranil wrote:Why do we have to get 2 squadrons of PAKFAs to start with?


There were news report quoting sources some time back that they were planing to get 2 squadron of PAK-FA in interim till FGFA is ready , Now looking at MP and IAF Chief recent interview that does not seem to be the case

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 23 Jan 2017 15:47

AFM PAK-FA/FGFA

Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 24 Jan 2017 00:41

Thanks Austin

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Farooq » 24 Jan 2017 08:07

PAK FA Air to Air refueling.


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 29 Jan 2017 05:11

Been going on since 2011, but, this from rbth:

Russia and India want to sign a detailed FGFA design agreement in 2017.


New Delhi is reportedly uneasy over the slow pace of progress in the FGFA project. This large-scale Russian-Indian joint project is being implemented by Russia’s Sukhoi Experimental Design Bureau and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. The parties hope to sign a detailed agreement on the design and development of this modern aircraft in the next few months.


Seems too generic to be taken seriously. What gives?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 31 Jan 2017 20:17

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7098&start=2920
Meanwhile, Johnson is dubious about how far the government will go in allowing India to select its own weapons for the F-16. “The US government generally dislikes modifying US military aircraft to carry any foreign weapons systems, and protects source code on our military aircraft so other countries can’t do the integration themselves.”New Delhi also sees the joint development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft with Russia as another source of high-end know how.

With both MMRCA and FGFA, New Delhi bargained hard for technology transfer and succeeded in extracting favourable concessions, but neither deal panned out as expected. This year will mark a decade since the inking of the FFGA agreement between India and Russia.

“The conditions and contractual terms that we have discussed for FGFA are very beneficial for India,” says HAL chairman Suvarna Raju. “We are positive looking at the FGFA and I am hopeful that we will have positive movement on the FGFA in 2017.”

The FGFA is seen as key to the air force’s fleet in the 2030s and 2040s. India invested $265 million in the preliminary design phase, which was completed in June 2013. The negotiations for R&D contracts continue, though it appears increasingly likely that India will look to proceed with a licensed production and technology transfer model.

NC Agarwal, former director of design and development at HAL, was part of an official Indian delegation to see the first prototype: “You don’t see much of a difference in the internal structure between the Su-30 and FGFA. The main difference is where the Su-30 makes use of a large amount of metallic structures, the FGFA makes use of composites in areas such as the wing. The FGFA, however, uses a large proportion of titanium.”

New Delhi appears to have given up on some of its ambitions for the type, namely the development of an India-specific variant known as the Perspective Multirole Fighter, with two seats. Bureaucratic wrangling on New Delhi’s part curtailed Indian participation in the programme at a time when Russia was pushing steadily ahead.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Feb 2017 03:55

^^^"Meanwhile, Johnson is dubious about how far the government will go in allowing India to select its own weapons for the F-16. "

The Israelis seem to have had little issue with integrating a whole lot of domestic stuff with the F-16I Sufa

".... Conformal Fuel Tanks, dorsal spine, and numerous fairings and bulges for undisclosed equipment. Rumor has it that a lot of the equipment is only installed after delivery to Israel.

IDF/AF F-16C/D Fighting Falcons were originally fitted with the Martin-Marietta Sharpshooter pod, which is a downgraded version of the Martin Marietta AN/AAQ-14 LANTIRN targeting pod. The Sharpshooter pods were later replaced by the Rafael Litening infrared targeting and navigational pod, and the Sharpshooter pods were transferred to the F-15I Eagles. During the roll-out ceremony, the F-16I carried both Lantirn pods.
Armament

In May 1989, the IDFAF revealed an F-16D at Hatsor AFB carrying a AGM-78D 'Standard ARM' missile which was used to attack Syrian SA batteries during the Peace of Galilee operation in Lebanon, confirming the suspicion that F-16Ds were used in a Wild Weasel role.

Israeli F-16s operate with a variety of locally-developed weapons, including the advanced Python 4 & 5 air-to-air missiles and the Popeye & Spice AGM's."

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article7.html

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby NRao » 01 Feb 2017 04:21

^^^^^

Sorry, wrong thread, so in brief:

2011 :: Turkey Gets F-16 Source Code

Personally, I do nto see too much of a problem - provided India is able to keep a very tight lid. The problem with India is leaks, nothing else.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cybaru » 01 Feb 2017 07:19

NRao wrote:^^^^^

Sorry, wrong thread, so in brief:

2011 :: Turkey Gets F-16 Source Code

Personally, I do nto see too much of a problem - provided India is able to keep a very tight lid. The problem with India is leaks, nothing else.


Yeah, I have noticed bad plumbing all around! Yep, must be source of leakage!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2017 07:47

:mrgreen:


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