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PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

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Cosmo_R
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 21 May 2017 18:34

Gyan wrote:If we are getting full TOT, why are we paying anything after USD 3.5 or 6.7 Billion dollars. Another fake JV like Brahmos, Shakti engine, Barak 8 missile.


That's the cost of the screwdrivers. ToT for that is not included.

Cosmo_R
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 21 May 2017 18:44

Vivek K wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:The answer depends on the level of indigenization we are able to achieve in the spares and our ability to build from scratch. But it is reasonable to presume that we will be dependent to a large degree on Russia for their part of the wares. E.g: What I know of is the basic missile for the Brahmos is still a Russian "product" - customized by India. We make some parts but not the full missile. It is highly unlikely we will be able to make the Brahmos, if Russia stops cooperating. On the FGFA, a virtual impossibility no matter what is signed on paper.

Why would Roos allow you to make the spares? If you can answer that then a lot of the basics will be cleared.


Exactly. They had a hissy fit initially over sourcing locally made tires for the MKI. For the foreseeable future if EVERYTHING goes right, the best we'd able to with MMI fighter is what the Swedes have been able to do with the Gripen. Here's what appears to be a list of suppliers

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... _39_Gripen

shiv
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 21 May 2017 20:06

When we talk of screwdriver tech, it occurs to me that we are a cocky supercilious bunch who look down on Indian industry as a bunch of bums who are restricted to assembling stuff. This may be 100% true - but the fact is that our industry itself is at that level not much higher. Perhaps our personal skills and experience tells us that people abroad or even Indians abroad are so much more skilled and innovative - but frankly even among highly skilled Indians who go abroad - I have not seen any major innovation come out after maybe Bose speakers.

The little innovation that has gone on in India has simply come from unexpected cancer like outgrowths from the screwdriver people in India who we are so derisive of, and we who comment about the bums who are doing screwdriver assembly are ourselves incapable of doing anything helpful - we can only be harmful and derisive while imagining that great new tech could come from India "If only" blah was done or blah was given. That may be rubbish, actually

I understand that a lot of "tech" in India may be imported screwdriver stuff but we critics don't count either; we are part of that incompetent environment. But we do not see ourselves that way. We tend to place ourselves in the shoes of some super-productive super innovative people - usually from the US or sometimes China and pretend that mockery and derision or at least abject self flagellation may solve things.

We get very upset when others accuse Indians of being rapists in buses or outdoor defaecators - but we ourselves show a healthy contempt for Indians as if we are outsiders looking at monkeys.

Our work skills are good only for screwdriver tech. We fu(k well and have produced a lot of young people from that work. If we were Pakis we would not be able to employ them but we would create migrants and terrorists.We are already creating migrants and our skilled migrants to the west act like the cockiest humans on earth. Indians are among the first to tell people about "Long queues outside the US consulate and how only the best get in"

However we are not Pakis and we must create jobs also. Those jobs are going to be screwdriver alone.

Do not expect innovation to come from thin air. We the educated and the millions who have gone to the west have produced next to nothing of note in the world - but our contribution of foreign exchange to mother country gives us a sense of accomplishment and entitlement and licence to lecture.

If accomplished, highly capable, highly skilled Indians who have gone abroad have done great things for America or Europe or even India I would like to see a list. But I suspect most are screwdriver level onlee". Like "I am Nirbhaya", "I am Malala "I am Screwdriver" . The only lists I see are bullshit lists like "25% NASA are Indian. Oh wow' 40% doctors are Indian. Indians in highest income bracket. Indians model minority. Indians most highly educated. Indians good at spelling. What sort of rubbish is this?

It is ironic that the Indians who really contribute and make an impact in the west that affects us are mofos like Arundhati Roy, Amartya Sen or Shashi Tharoor or some other artsy fartsy types. Not the science and engineering types who went abroad because "research is so good", or "education is so good", or "opportunities are so good", or "My great talent is recognized" abroad . They mostly end up as well paid coolies abroad with licence to point out the shit in India echoed by the self hating DIE living inside India. If we are critical of the self hating artsy fartsy types how are we science engineering types any better. Most of the time I think people are talking shit comparing west with India and making no visible contribution. Why curse Arundhadti Roy or Tharoor?

geeth
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby geeth » 21 May 2017 20:33

The short story what you said is that, we promote excellence in mathematics (physics Chemistry to an extent) and english. Basically a scientific community who has made it a habit to look down on engineers and managers. They often dont realise that their pet theories difficult to manage and put to practice basically because of lack of infrastructure.

We will advance only when engineers ,technicians, mechanics and skilled labour are given due respect. It is also true that an engineer should know how use a spanner or other tools and implements. Instead, you will often find a blue collar more skilled and experienced than a white collar and is treated contemptuously. Our education system needs a thorough overhaul.

Suresh S
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Suresh S » 21 May 2017 21:02

Most would classify what shiv wrote above as a rant but hidden inside the so called rant is wisdom which comes from a lifetime of experience and thinking. And I dare say many are not capable of seeing it even though when you think about it , it is not rocket science and is lying right in front of you. I have given the same lecture many times both in India and abroad. To be sure I discussed similar things with a fellow doctor 2 days ago and no prizes for guessing the response. I kind of expected it. I told him looking at the overall situation (with consideration for individual circumstances) it is a great mistake on the part of Indians (may be others) to come to america or any other place of milk and honey. I do not know why we do this. You eat meat when u do not want to in your heart. You make your kids grow up here when you know they may dump you in a nursing home when u grow old and do other things which are completely at odds with your culture and what u are as a individual.You sacrifice your culture, your family and most of all your country for what? No matter how much u rub your soul or skin you will remain second class in this society even if you are the microsoft and google CEO sir.But we somehow justify everything, oh it is so crowded in India, life is so difficult unless you a have a godfather etc etc. Of course I expected the next thing to come from him . He says why do not you do it yourself . I told him at the first opportunity I am out of here and no amount of monetary Ghoonsh can stop me, it can not come soon enough.

Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2017 22:45

Cosmo_R wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Why would Roos allow you to make the spares? If you can answer that then a lot of the basics will be cleared.


Exactly. They had a hissy fit initially over sourcing locally made tires for the MKI. For the foreseeable future if EVERYTHING goes right, the best we'd able to with MMI fighter is what the Swedes have been able to do with the Gripen. Here's what appears to be a list of suppliers

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... _39_Gripen


I think BR needs to have a debate on which screwdriver is the latest and atya adhunik. Amriki, Swedish or Russkie.

Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2017 22:54

And here we have the problem in a nutshell.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 2HfOL.html

“If the FGFA project doesn’t work out for some reason, the AMCA could be a good alternative. However, that would be a long term plan as production will begin only around 2035-37,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said.


IAF attitude on open display. Indian programs are always the alternative, not the preferred solution. Use it as a negotiating tactic & sit with MOD for endless discussions while the program keeps trundling along, like a zombie.

A three-member government committee is all set to submit its report on the viability of the FGFA programme. The panel was set up 3 months ago.


MOD brilliance. The T-50 has been flying for how many years now? And now we have a committee. No problem. If this one doesn't work out we will have yet another committee.

The sources said ADA was in discussions with companies such as Dassault Aviation and Boeing for the project but it would be premature to comment on who the foreign collaborator could be.

No problem guys. Lets offer to collaborate with the guys who refused to help us for the LCA because they didn't get approval for a 4G collaboration. Heres a genius plan, lets put up a 5G proposal. Meanwhile, lets also talk with Dassault who refused us TOT for the Rafale. Yup. No decision yet. Because, hey look - samosas and chai and marie biscuit. And Oreos for bade sahab.

What a farce.

Cosmo_R
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 May 2017 00:23

geeth wrote:The short story what you said is that, we promote excellence in mathematics (physics Chemistry to an extent) and english. Basically a scientific community who has made it a habit to look down on engineers and managers. They often dont realise that their pet theories difficult to manage and put to practice basically because of lack of infrastructure.

We will advance only when engineers ,technicians, mechanics and skilled labour are given due respect. It is also true that an engineer should know how use a spanner or other tools and implements. Instead, you will often find a blue collar more skilled and experienced than a white collar and is treated contemptuously. Our education system needs a thorough overhaul.


Just like cricket depletes the oxygen for all other sports in India, we have emphasized and rewarded theory over application and test taking over critical thinking.

Germany figured this out long ago: two streams—the university stream and the vocational one. The vocational stream can earn as much or more earlier than the university one.

Another reason for for the mess we are in is that there is no concept of maintenance and service for physical items. Once it's built, it's left to rot. Household appliance technicians arrive with neither the proper tools or knowledge and expect a tip because their salary is a pittance and so on.

In the long run (short run it's cruel) this H1B stuff is going to be a boon as people look to domestic opportunities. More top say but all OT

Cosmo_R
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 May 2017 00:35

^^^" IAF attitude on open display. Indian programs are always the alternative, not the preferred solution. Use it as a negotiating tactic & sit with MOD for endless discussions while the program keeps trundling along, like a zombie."

Is part of the problem that the IAF does not feel it has any real control over what it gets and when it gets it? Decisions are political both WRT foreign vendors and domestic exigencies (remember SG's populist expenditure on rural works that killed many defense projects?). I don't know if I were in the IAF that I would be that concerned after so many years whether some equipment is domestic or foreign as long as it's newer than the rust bucket MiGs I fly and it's going to come sooner. I would curse the half clever babus daily but that's as invested I would get.

My take from that IAF guy's comment is that he expects neither the PAK/FA nor the AMCA to arrive in his service (or other) life and doesn't give a hoot anymore.

Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2017 01:24

IAF has had multiple chances to get into programs. It knows if it gets into programs it will have to be like the Navy. So why bother? Easier to import no. Anyways, since they have not been tasked with the MOD to do all this messy program stuff, they will not bother with any of it.

As regards not caring where it comes from, that is also part of the IAFs institutional culture, which then has to ground fleets of aircraft since spares are not available, either because of vendor issues or MOD tightfistedness (because of MOF) and yet, it will ask for the next B-Wing, even though its X-Wings don't have enough budgeting in the revenue budget. Is this even logical? You are not getting enough money from the MOD to run your existing setup and willingly ask for the most expensive toy available?

So after a time, its clear that they are part of the mess & those in the IAF who see this and try to solve it, never really get into the positions of power, where the import today & tomorrow group clearly has sway. So yes, the occasional Akash or a handful of AEW&C may be a positive thing, but then you see the attitude on display versus the LCA & the fight in getting even Mk1A sanctioned, and no clear line of sight for a MK2 or MK3 while Gripen is oh-so-ok.

The MOD is/was also happy with this and will tacitly support such groups, because arms imports were manna for SG and co, and basically were an all you can eat junket. Is it any wonder then, that MP didn't want to touch the original MMRCA deal with a bargepole and it became a limited Govt to Govt affair. With such worthies as part of the original offsets (http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/inc ... Qlr8I.html) how long is one to take statements like this, reducing the negotiating power of the GOI at a crucial time (http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/we- ... MNmgN.html) as being ok or symptomatic of a completely dysfunctional setup?

MP of course wanted good optics, what with the OROP issue and all, so would not force anything down to the IAF. He at least got the LCA, got the IAF partly out of a dubious Rafale deal, but got them some Rafales and then to assuage them did this asinine MII business of a single engine fighter.

He went off to Goa. He had no stake in this single engine business - it was all to keep the IAF happy. And of course nobody should ask or question the IAF or MOD as to how exactly a Gripen or F-16 is sustainable from the TOT POV, is any less imported than a Tejas or a Su-30, and what will be the cost impact of having yet another fighter in the menagerie that is the IAF today!

And let alone how this single engined fighter will swing the war for us against the PLAAF's IADS, or stand up to J-20s and J-31s which even if they are lower tech, by virtue of their shaping and even conservative assessments of RAM etc, might still have an edge in BVR.

Never mind, lets import. Meanwhile, what's the funding status of AMCA? Or Kaveri? Or the local BMD system, and its plans for advanced radars, which have arguably a much bigger effect on our long term indigenous arms industry AND deterrence?

There is a nice coconut tree outside, filled with foreign exchange, which the MOD has solemnly promised the IAF, will deliver some nice coconuts, for imports and todays spares and upgrades and everything. Yup.

vera_k
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby vera_k » 22 May 2017 01:44

shiv wrote:Do not expect innovation to come from thin air.

But I suspect most are screwdriver level onlee".


Need to say here that most "innovation" is on the level of tweaks to existing tech. Snapchat is a recent visible example of a tweak that is held up as an innovation. So yes, start somewhere and keep building.

Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2017 01:49

The set up is completely rotten from top to bottom, and unfortunately, expecting one man as the PM to fix everything is stupid. He can only do so much, and many of the retained babus and other folks in the system, services, DPSU, scientific community are all used to this bijness of import today, everything is fine. MP who knew what he was doing, wanted his politics over fixing national defense and off he went to Goa. Current system will slowly & steadily slide back to anarchy. ADA Chief was ex-Navy. Arguably the most committed type one can get. IN cancelled interest in LCA & made a big hue & spectacle of wanting another fighter. Of course, it had everything to do only with the LCA, nothing to do with the single err double engined genius that is the MiG-29K. If the ADA Chief had to endure muck raking, and even take to IDR to state his case. Anyhow, so no tough questions were asked on how exactly the MiG-29K was selected, and why it was a mess, and yet new fighters were required... at how many $Billion.. as versus fixing the MiG-29K. So why exactly will any kind soul no ever venture into such a pit of political viper-giri to head any national program?
MOD sure plays a nice fiddle though & Dassault has been kind enough to inform us that if we buy some 200 fighters, they may consider TOT. This time.

I mean, there is comedy, there is tragi-comedy. There is high-farce. Our situation crossed all this a long time back. This lust for some imported magic TOT which will magically make India into a great power and somehow transform us into a magical combat power, then, then, those pesky TSPians and border map messing PRC guys will respect us! Yep.

Meantime, what is the authorized holding of NVGs again? And how many troops were lost in J&K in ops, which occurred because TSP guys keep sneaking in?

The sad part is there are dime a dozen local firms and even programs which have advanced to the 80% level and are languishing for want of proper support. But lets talk of K-9s and what not, whereas Kalyani could not even get his gun tested & I forget, when was it DRDO first asked for IIR fabs in India? So it goes..

Oh more fun. Russia's PAK-FA. Our next great import. On all new Russkie processors and firmware & software. Good luck to HAL in figuring out how all that works. There is TOT and there is super screwdriver giri.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby srai » 22 May 2017 03:49

^^^

In India regards to indigenization, media et al seem to make it a point to call out that 20% is import and yet seem to be blind when it's the reverse--80%+ imports.

Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2017 03:58

i literally LOL at the shameless hypocrisy of members like Phillip who salivate and shill for Russian goods, whilst disparaging Indian programs as having imported parts. If Arjun has 40% imported parts or 60% by value, you will have shameless rants about good for nothing Indians. OTOH, a fully imported and knocked down T-90 assembled from Russian parts is A-ok for this crowd. Angrez to chaley gaye but their attitude remains in many brown sahibs. Nothing Indian will ever be good enough for this crowd.

Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2017 04:03

The Russians are yet to deliver on Indian firms making spares for Su-30s and unless that is done, and a proper delivery on Su-30 upgrades given, we should just chai-biscoot this PAK-FA stuff. Its not like they will put even an iota of our stuff in their plane or give any real TOT to them indoos, so we should also hold off on giving them the protection money.. err 6Bn$ payment to "join" this great program.
If push comes to shove India can always buy a few squadrons of JSFs and even wall them from the wider comm nets for our own safety. Counterstealth gear is available from Thales, Elta etc and with them perhaps we can actually codevelop proper radars built for our requirements, as versus importing bulky Russian sets which are a mix of 80's tech with today's. As is typical of most of their stuff.
Point being, the time to be constantly dependent on Russia too is over. They can continue working with the Su-30s and upgrades.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 May 2017 04:48

Let's lay off Philip.

All of us here on BRF have some POV and we want to share it others of like mind whom we did not know existed. I say of "like mind" in the context of all of us wishing the best for India. We differ on ways to get there and who the friends and enemies are. But none of us influence anything. In that context, it's important not let the friendly fire get too intense.

The problem is not me, Philip, Shiv, Chola or those with strong views with whom I have had the privilege to discourse or even those whom I block. It is I think, a death wish in Indic culture that revels in the thought of an implausible "weakness is strength" leitmotif (Gandhi suggested the to English the let the Germans invade England) .

We don't have a Jimmy Doolittle, Chester Nimitz, Jackie Fisher, Gorshkov, Yamamoto. You name it. We get Mulayam, GF, AKA and Jet Li.

We have no scholar warriors. Our system doesn't allow for it. We don't do expeditionary...well...(Sri Lanka)

NaMo has a positive vision but he has no capable lieutenants beyond JetLi. He needs to think out of the proverbial box. But he is one man confronted by 24x7x30x365 elections which our 'democracy' prizes over governance and accountability.

Our defense policy is like the Sauropods contending with the Theropods. They can lose many times but we the Sauropods can only lose once.

We are always conceding penalty kicks before the game starts.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 06:11

Cosmo_R wrote:
Germany figured this out long ago: two streams—the university stream and the vocational one. The vocational stream can earn as much or more earlier than the university one.

Another reason for for the mess we are in is that there is no concept of maintenance and service for physical items. Once it's built, it's left to rot. Household appliance technicians arrive with neither the proper tools or knowledge and expect a tip because their salary is a pittance and so on.

My own highly educated doctor/engineer/etc friends are a bunch who all went abroad but some returned to India.

All of us knew that the average Joe in Amreeka would be able to fiddle with his car - change the oil whatever while most of us the educated elite from top colleges had no idea. But the uneducated mechanic in India could do that. When abroad we would watch goras buy bookshelves and cupboards in disassembled form from IKEA or some such place, load in the back of their car to go home, then read the instructions and assemble the cupboard using screwdriver - and hammer because that was all that was needed. Screwdrivergiri. Those of us who came back to India - older & with families in tow found the same disassembled furniture in India - which would be delivered home and assembled by a worker using a screwdriver.

The point is that in India the "uneducated class" is fully capable of using screwdriver tech. We the educated are not even capable of that. But we have such utter contempt for the screwdriver class of people and act as if our own great technical knowledge of science and engineering theory will produce magical machines while the screwdriver class are keeping the country down. Educated Indians are frauds and hypocrites to a very large extent. We need to shut our mouths and let the screwdriver class do their jobs - create jobs for them - only they will innovate not our snooty class who have done bugger all for the last 40 years in terms of innovation. This contempt for screwdrivergiri is completely ridiculous from an educated bunch who are totally useless in producing anything original otherwise. Even a man who sculpts a penis out of a block of stone is shows more innovation than the scientific brain bursting with theory whose "global talents" are "recognized abroad"

Let us stop pretending that screwdriver giri is bad and that if we stop scredrivergiri innovations, F-22s and F-35s will come pouring out. Millions of Indians who have said that for 40-50 years have managed to do nothing but talk talk talk and condemn all the wrong things in India

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 22 May 2017 07:17

shiv wrote:My own highly educated doctor/engineer/etc friends are a bunch who all went abroad but some returned to India.

All of us knew that the average Joe in Amreeka would be able to fiddle with his car - change the oil whatever while most of us the educated elite from top colleges had no idea. But the uneducated mechanic in India could do that. When abroad we would watch goras buy bookshelves and cupboards in disassembled form from IKEA or some such place, load in the back of their car to go home, then read the instructions and assemble the cupboard using screwdriver - and hammer because that was all that was needed. Screwdrivergiri. Those of us who came back to India - older & with families in tow found the same disassembled furniture in India - which would be delivered home and assembled by a worker using a screwdriver.

The point is that in India the "uneducated class" is fully capable of using screwdriver tech. We the educated are not even capable of that. But we have such utter contempt for the screwdriver class of people and act as if our own great technical knowledge of science and engineering theory will produce magical machines while the screwdriver class are keeping the country down. Educated Indians are frauds and hypocrites to a very large extent. We need to shut our mouths and let the screwdriver class do their jobs - create jobs for them - only they will innovate not our snooty class who have done bugger all for the last 40 years in terms of innovation. This contempt for screwdrivergiri is completely ridiculous from an educated bunch who are totally useless in producing anything original otherwise. Even a man who sculpts a penis out of a block of stone is shows more innovation than the scientific brain bursting with theory whose "global talents" are "recognized abroad"

Let us stop pretending that screwdriver giri is bad and that if we stop scredrivergiri innovations, F-22s and F-35s will come pouring out. Millions of Indians who have said that for 40-50 years have managed to do nothing but talk talk talk and condemn all the wrong things in India


Shiv-ji, I agreed with much of what you but I still think you're just a cudmudgeonly old SOB.

NRIs do have a nagging feeling that India should be doing since we are able to compete with goras on their home court and win at the highest levels:

Banga, Pichai, Nooyi, Nadella. CEOs of MasterCard, Google, Pepsi and Microsoft.

You can't get more iconic gora firms than those and each is held by a fvcking desi not one generation removed from Bharat. You've damned right we are fustrated by screwdrivergiri. If we can't innovate then at least negotiate better fvcking deals where TOT actually means TOT.

shiv
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 07:56

chola wrote:
You can't get more iconic gora firms than those and each is held by a fvcking desi not one generation removed from Bharat. You've damned right we are fustrated by screwdrivergiri. If we can't innovate then at least negotiate better fvcking deals where TOT actually means TOT.

You have not understood since you seem to concentrate on what you think of me more than what I have tried to say. Please desist from making personal remarks. Every time you do that I report that post as an ad hominem. Such remarks are acceptable from friends. I don't know who the hell you are. Indians heading firms, striking deals or being frustrated does not give any Indians the licence to imagine that "scredrivergiri" is bad or contemptible since most successful, educated and company heading Indians do not get beyond the "screw" and score part of scredrivergiri

Indians heading firms and striking deals is not innovation - but the ability to shut up and accept that a person who does screwdrivergiri has more skills than your intelligent well educated brain can offer would be a welcome gift for the educated Indian.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 08:05

chola wrote:
You can't get more iconic gora firms than those and each is held by a fvcking desi not one generation removed from Bharat. You've damned right we are fustrated by screwdrivergiri. If we can't innovate then at least negotiate better fvcking deals where TOT actually means TOT.



With almost no local aerospace R&D base and an aggressive import lobby, there is nothing to absorb any TOT even if there was anything useful forth coming.

ToT for the most part is a money handing over ceremony to foreign arms producers to subsidize their R&D industry.

shiv
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 08:59

Below is a perfect example of what I wrote earlier

chola wrote:Banga, Pichai, Nooyi, Nadella. CEOs of MasterCard, Google, Pepsi and Microsoft.

You can't get more iconic gora firms than those and each is held by a fvcking desi not one generation removed from Bharat.



This is the exact nonsense that Indians keep spouting. Some crazy vicarious pride for being appointed chowkidar of existing dukaan

You have edumacated Indians given high positions in companies where the innovation was done by someone else including a company that makes aerated water to sell to Indians - but Indians think that this is great innovation. It is not. It is no better than screwdrivergiri. If we must employ Indians in India rather than hanker for America as millions have done we must give Indians jobs - and those jobs will be screwdrivergiri jobs. Not brainwave innovation that it is claimed will come to non-screwdriver types "if only we did not do screwdrivergiri."


shiv wrote:If accomplished, highly capable, highly skilled Indians who have gone abroad have done great things for America or Europe or even India I would like to see a list. But I suspect most are screwdriver level onlee". Like "I am Nirbhaya", "I am Malala "I am Screwdriver" . The only lists I see are bullshit lists like "25% NASA are Indian. Oh wow' 40% doctors are Indian. Indians in highest income bracket. Indians model minority. Indians most highly educated. Indians good at spelling. What sort of rubbish is this?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 22 May 2017 09:25

I'll answer everyone in this reply. It is a pure and simple concept.

Neshant wrote:
chola wrote:
You can't get more iconic gora firms than those and each is held by a fvcking desi not one generation removed from Bharat. You've damned right we are fustrated by screwdrivergiri. If we can't innovate then at least negotiate better fvcking deals where TOT actually means TOT.



With almost no local aerospace R&D base and an aggressive import lobby, there is nothing to absorb any TOT even if there was anything useful forth coming.



TOT is used to develop an industrial capacity where is was lacking before. Companies do this all the time. Turdworld nations do this all the time. Embraer comes from Brazil. When you negotiate TOT you don't make yourself a subcontractor making parts under duration of a single build run.


ToT for the most part is a money handing over ceremony to foreign arms producers to subsidize their R&D industry.


Everyone here knows. Babus and netas get their kickbacks and Natashas. We know. But how do you change it?

In my humble opinion, what India needs is some of its sons from outside the corruption, from outside the civilization-old tradition of just accepting shit and carrying on. We need disruptors who can creatively teardown so we can build back up with something clean and efficient.

Arvind Subramanian is an example of one of those who came back with a fresh eye holding an untainted vision of what Bharat could be.

At the very least they could negotiate better deals with the fvcking goras. Nobody gives Indians, or any dark-skinned turdworlder, shit much less fvcking CEO of an American Fortune 500 firm. We fought tooth and nail for those positions.

Warning issued. Watch your language.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 22 May 2017 13:29

Karan M wrote:And here we have the problem in a nutshell.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 2HfOL.html

“If the FGFA project doesn’t work out for some reason, the AMCA could be a good alternative. However, that would be a long term plan as production will begin only around 2035-37,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said.


IAF attitude on open display. Indian programs are always the alternative, not the preferred solution. Use it as a negotiating tactic & sit with MOD for endless discussions while the program keeps trundling along, like a zombie.

A three-member government committee is all set to submit its report on the viability of the FGFA programme. The panel was set up 3 months ago.


MOD brilliance. The T-50 has been flying for how many years now? And now we have a committee. No problem. If this one doesn't work out we will have yet another committee.

The sources said ADA was in discussions with companies such as Dassault Aviation and Boeing for the project but it would be premature to comment on who the foreign collaborator could be.

No problem guys. Lets offer to collaborate with the guys who refused to help us for the LCA because they didn't get approval for a 4G collaboration. Heres a genius plan, lets put up a 5G proposal. Meanwhile, lets also talk with Dassault who refused us TOT for the Rafale. Yup. No decision yet. Because, hey look - samosas and chai and marie biscuit. And Oreos for bade sahab.

What a farce.

Karan, from the very link you posted
The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said.

Please note that the timeframe of 10-12 years is as per ADA's plan. And if all goes according to plan, that doesn't happen in real life. So how does that become IAF's fault?

AMCA is still in a conceptual phase. As per information released earlier this year by ADA, here is a sample of design iterations -
Image

The caption describes how basics are being configured - eg viable structural layout and initial analysis.

So how does it become IAF's fault if the design is in its infancy. Whatever the historical reason might be, IAF doesnt have designers on staff.

ADA has only a finite number of people, most of whom are working to finalize Mk 1 FOC, thereafter they would focus on Mk1A internal realignment while HAL AR&DC focusses on System Integration of new AESA radar and Elta 8222 or newer pod. Thereafter ADA will focus on Mk2.

Bare minimum staff is working on AMCA vis-a-vis LCA.

There was a recruitment freeze in UPA era & I'm not sure whether the present govt has filled those vacancies. Even after staff is onboarded, getting them up to mark takes time.

Even while recruiting, there is a huge non technical administrative staff burden that does not add any value.

As a nation, we simply don't have designers nor have we invested in them. China as a nation gives projects to multiple design bureaus to hone their skills. We spend money on farmer loan waivers. You get what you pay for. As 2019 approaches, more money will go in that direction.

Even in shipbuilding, we've few naval architects. In submarines, every available architect is focused on Nuclear Submarines and not one on DE Submarines. Not one architect is working on Fleet Support Ships or Amphibious ships.

When HSL designed Rani Abakka class IPVs for ICG, there were significant design issues.

DND didnt have the bandwidth to help - anyways it was between ICG & HSL and DND had no locus standi.

http://www.marinebuzz.com/2012/01/31/in ... d-limited/

Phase 1: Five vessels with contractual delivery period as March 2008 to March 2009 (now revised as August 2011 to July 2012).
Phase 2: Eight more IPVs are also going to be built by HSL (Yard No 11165 to 11172) with contractual delivery period as August 2013 to May 2015.


The fifth ship of class is not even delivered 8 years after original deadline and 5 years after revised deadline. Phase 2 has not even started. ICG does not have any design capabilities, so what can it do?

Pipavav took a Russian design for its OPVs that had significant flaws. They bled financially to even discover and rectify the flaws. DND didnt have the bandwidth to help. Without Reliance capital infusion, Pipavav would've gone bankrupt.

I'm not blaming Pipavav (Pvt) or HSL (Govt) or ICG (user) or IN or ADA or IAF.

Where we've failed, we've failed collectively as a nation where priority is farmer loan waivers or free electricity than aircraft or ship design. The first & fifth year of every govt is spent in electorate sops.

An aviation or ship design bureau is probably on Page 99 of any Govt's priority list.

Where we've succeeded, its collectively. A MoD IAS officer worked on war footing to resolve Dhruv spares issues and get the supply chain up & running.

There were good ministers, like Manohar Parrikar and M M Pallam Raju. Sadly they didnt get sufficient opportunity to bat. The second was tied up by his own government.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby srai » 22 May 2017 14:19

^^^
Time and again we keep seeing the same issue--lack of funding for basic science & research and proper infrastructure investment along with grooming talent and retaining them.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 22 May 2017 14:53

There are cultural issues as well. As others have pointed out, scientists look down on engineers who look down on tradesmen. But its engineers who translate concept to system architecture and tradesmen who translate architecture to build.

Parents want children to do MBA or PhD and intellectually masturbate in AC offices to earn their living - getting hands dirty is frowned upon. Do middle class parents get their daughters married to tradesmen? No. Will they stay in same housing colony as an engineer or scientist? No.

Infact there is a word in Indian Industry called "menial labour" that doesn't exist anywhere. Labour is classified as skilled or unskilled but never "menial" anywhere.

Many IN sailor tradesmen post retirement pick up lucrative jobs in Abu Dhabi shipyard that came up much later than MDL or GRSE but is overtaking them in business. Elta picks up ex-IAF airmen for its global maintenance base. They're better paid than what officers or scientists earn. These are people who have the best idea of ergonomics, user experience, ease of maintenance. Are they consulted during design? No.

If someone welds nuclear submarines or does the electrical fitting for Swordfish radar, he is still considered menial. Whereas, in South Korea or Germany, he is an equal to scientist or engineer. In India, he is held in contempt as equivalent to household electrician.

We've a shortage of scientists and engineers and even more crippling shortage of tradesmen, with the bare few who prefer working in ME, ASEAN, etc.

If the chap fitting/welding LCA is culturally the most menial person in the organization, imagine his motivation and output.

I know a welder who worked in Type 209/1500 submarines at MDL. P V Narasimha Rao lacked money to continue building those submarines and imported Type 877 EKM from Russia. The guy was idle, so joined a Kuwait Oil Company welding undersea pipelines. Needless to say, he earns better than me, but I have no inferiority complex because he's getting his skill's worth.
Last edited by tsarkar on 22 May 2017 15:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 22 May 2017 15:21

srai wrote:^^^
Time and again we keep seeing the same issue--lack of funding for basic science & research and proper infrastructure investment along with grooming talent and retaining them.


Srai, issue is not funding but clear funding. Let me explain with an example -

Suppose a team is set up to build INS Vikrant or Tejas. Their first mandate or first phase is to design. Once they design, they send their result to ministry/service who do their validation and then send to DAC/CCS for their approval. Thereafter, CCS approves next phase which would be FSED.

In the interim period when all the high and mighty decide, and like the infinite number of Hindu gods, there are infinite number of decision makers gods in India, the team sits idle. They cannot concurrently move to next phase while decision is being made.

Then a ship's hull is built. Once the hull is built, it again goes for approval for fitting out radars and missiles. Now, radar and missiles were known during design itself, but high & mighty decision makers waited for hull to get completed before radars and missiles are ordered. While the missiles and radars are approved by infinite decision makers/DCS/CCS , the team sits idle.

If every phase of INS Vikrant or Tejas requires CCS approval, delays are bound to happen. One day Sonia G decides it election year and money is better spent on Right to Food scheme. M K Anthony cuts off INS Vikrant funding. And shamelessly also decides to launch the unfinished hull for electoral publicity in his home state.

What the US does better is auto-approval - if the Phase 1 results are met, then the program automatically moves to Phase 2 without going all the way to CCS. The approval for hull & missiles is given simultaneously, because for standard ships like Arleigh Burke or Project 15A/B, you know the hull build will be successful, because 3 Delhi and 3 Kolkata ships are sailing well. There have been close to 100 Brahmos launches, so you can order it in advance.

This kind of confused funding actually results in spending more and needless delays. Delay by missile maker BrahMos Corp & VLS maker L&T due to late order results in delay in the ship and empty hull floating in the water. Those traveling by Eastern Freeway in Mumbai can glimpse through the trees the idle hulls floating in the yard.

The recent LR-SAM deal with Israel posted by Arun is a classic example of this. If Project 15B and Project 17A (11 Ships) are designed around LRSAM, then have a single order instead of piecemeal.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 22 May 2017 15:36

and now you will Phillip on unsanctioned leave for 2 months.
Nowhere to be seen till the Indian Frog again gets used to the increase in temperature of the water.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JohnTitor » 22 May 2017 16:18

shiv wrote:This is the exact nonsense that Indians keep spouting. Some crazy vicarious pride for being appointed chowkidar of existing dukaan

You have edumacated Indians given high positions in companies where the innovation was done by someone else including a company that makes aerated water to sell to Indians - but Indians think that this is great innovation. It is not. It is no better than screwdrivergiri. If we must employ Indians in India rather than hanker for America as millions have done we must give Indians jobs - and those jobs will be screwdrivergiri jobs. Not brainwave innovation that it is claimed will come to non-screwdriver types "if only we did not do screwdrivergiri."

Absolutely. I agree with you entirely.

[OT but relevant to this particular point]
Innovation is the key to material progress. Without innovation, you will end up either buying off the shelf solutions or "screwdrivergiri" as you call it.

Problem though, I feel, is deeper than that. It is the educational system and the rot that has built into it. With reservations abound, these people (both students and teachers alike) feel entitled and there is no need to compete (at least at a level you would expect). Reservation is fine as long as it is based on your income, not who you worship. In order for innovation to really take off in India, the educational system needs to be reformed and young minds need to be taught to explore, question and think on their own. Indian schools just churn out students who are spoonfed the questions and answers.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby A Deshmukh » 22 May 2017 18:31

JohnTitor wrote:Problem though, I feel, is deeper than that. It is the educational system and the rot that has built into it. With reservations abound, these people (both students and teachers alike) feel entitled and there is no need to compete (at least at a level you would expect). Reservation is fine as long as it is based on your income, not who you worship. In order for innovation to really take off in India, the educational system needs to be reformed and young minds need to be taught to explore, question and think on their own. Indian schools just churn out students who are spoonfed the questions and answers.

[sarc on]as long we have someone else or something else to blame for, we dont need to change ourselves. :roll:
particularly when that something else is so big and we have no chance of changing that thing.[/sarc off]

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 18:34

In India, hands on mechanics are familiar with engineered devices but have no knowledge of science behind engineering design. No self respecting Indian parent wants his son to be a mechanic. The boy must study engineering and math books and know the theory. The mechanic does it for a living and does jugaad with low tech tools, hand measurements and unsuitable material doing things that make the engineering student mock and laugh. But the only thing that engg student will do with his hands is mix his rice and sambaar till graduation and then he will be in America, claiming superiority.

It is the engineer who works and helps the jugaad mechanic who can lead to innovation, not Mr Sambarmix. It is screwdrivergiri that is the first step towards reverse engineering, which in turn is the first step towards innovation. The cockiness and contempt shown on BRF towards screwdrivergiri used to make me think that real innovation will come from sambarmixing. But no.Nothing of the sort has happened in 40 years. The little Indian engg originality has only come from jugaad Huffy, Tuffy, INSAS and 3 leg cheetah.Not from Pepsi and Googal leadership.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JohnTitor » 22 May 2017 19:24

I find that difficult to agree with because if "screwdrivergiri" leads to innovation and helps reverse engineering, why are we so behind defence tech? Meanwhile china has reverse engineered everything from phones to fighter jets - Not that they are some sort of role model, but surely knowing how it works is just as important as getting your hands dirty, wouldn't you agree?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 20:14

The only defence innovation we have comes from the screwdriver people and from the Navy who have invested and embedded engineers. That aside I know of no benefit that has accrued from our brightest and best who now lead bigbig companies. Not a single chip, rocket motor, IC engine, seeker or gun design has come to us from our brightest and best who are long on advice and mockery, and who claim to understand the reasons for Indian limitations but cannot explain how the hell they have the credentials to give lectures to anyone. HuffyTuffy is Indian. Nukefizzle is Indian.Inadequate thrust rocket of ISRO -Indian, Lamecheetah- Indian. All made by people who are primarily screwdivergiri experts whose work every one of us criticize - starting from asking "Something should have been done in April 17.What happened. No news. Need to take a leaf out of Lockheed Martins work ethic. We know dont we? We are so clever.

But wtf have "we" done. Zilch. I have a distant relative whose original work occupies about 0.5 micron space in a computer chip. A Pentium I. I still have the T shirt he gave me.Lasted longer than Pentium I. Maybe Agnis use PI? Ah whattay contribution..

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Prasad » 22 May 2017 20:30

Peanuts for monkeys shiv saar. If you don't put in the required donkeys work, you won't get a microchip or a stm or a rocket motor or a high temperature ceramic. All these are what make your planes and submarines and warships and tanks. You can screwdriver all you want but you wont build the next better thing. For that you need to throw money at research and accept that maybe 1 in 1000 throws will hit the stumps. If you have no stomach for that you will always be behind. Evolution, innovation difference only. No point throwing muck at all those ceos.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 20:58

Prasad wrote:Peanuts for monkeys shiv saar. If you don't put in the required donkeys work, you won't get a microchip or a stm or a rocket motor or a high temperature ceramic. All these are what make your planes and submarines and warships and tanks. You can screwdriver all you want but you wont build the next better thing. For that you need to throw money at research and accept that maybe 1 in 1000 throws will hit the stumps. If you have no stomach for that you will always be behind. Evolution, innovation difference only. No point throwing muck at all those ceos.

I have heard this for too long. Right here on BRF

People were saying "pay them more"

In actual fact the girls who worked on Agni and the boys and girls working on HTT 40 and work overtime are being paid a pittance and are working for the love of it - not for the money. On the other hand all the bright guys who went abroad and figured that good work only comes transactionally with good money because "Americuh throws daalerrrs to solve prraablems" - have themselves not managed to have a stamp on any thing - not a single internationally known torch, lock, briefcase, tyre, lipstick, candy or pen has an Indian stamp on it let alone, phone. tablet, missile, seeker, sensor or aircraft. So who are these people coming up with these bright ideas? Once a guy has good money - he thinks money is what causes success. Not if you look at the LCA guys, the missile guys or even the young HTT 40 people. All those represent innovation on low budgets by people whose primary function was screwdrivergiri.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 22 May 2017 21:14

JohnTitor wrote:I find that difficult to agree with because if "screwdrivergiri" leads to innovation and helps reverse engineering, why are we so behind defence tech? Meanwhile china has reverse engineered everything from phones to fighter jets - Not that they are some sort of role model, but surely knowing how it works is just as important as getting your hands dirty, wouldn't you agree?


Shiv-ji makes this huge self-righteous show of "speaking" for the screwdrivering everyman.

It is nothing but a strawman. Not one of us showed any disdain for those working with their hands. In fact, those of us who live and compete in the outside world invariably have a better appreciation of those who work on the manual rungs of society. Part of it is we've simply live in far more egalitarian societies than Bharat and secondly we are forced to compete against firangs who have no respect for our traditional castes and classes that demand special privileges.

What we despise is the stupidity and corruption of those at the top who makes deals for screwdrivergiri instead of full technology transfers that can give us an Embraer or a Hyundai.

I never believed the chinis were able to simply "copy" their copies. You cannot put a flanker on a giant office HP copier and have many spit out the other end. You need an entire industrial eco-system.

How they got to the point they are at now is by negotiation and leverage for true TOT and the machine tools to make them. The Flanker is a case in point. They are able to build as variants as they want and STILL receive Russian engines for their two stealth programs. This is the same kind of common sense negotiating and leveraging that CEOs do to build and maintain the positions of their companies.

Put a NRI at the top of HAL. We did with Subramanian at the top of our economy. And Rajan at the RBI. Bring in someone from outside the culture of corruption and resignation to poor performance.

Innovation comes after you get the process down right. For all of Shiv's disdain for the NRIs, we can get the process down right. We do not get to those CEO positions by f-ing things up.
Last edited by chola on 22 May 2017 21:23, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 21:15

There was a news item recently that stated that China was concentrating on research to make ball bearings for ball point pens. Duh. I thought. China has been doing screwdrivergiri for ballpoint pens for decades now but had to import every single ball. Now after having given their people jobs and incomes doing screwdrivergiri - they have decided to screw the ball bearing manufacturers by innovating and trying to get the little ball right. So the idea that screwdrivergiri can never lead to the need to innovate or spending on innovation needs to be looked at in the context of the advantages of screwdrivergiri in keeping a young population bulge employed rather than exporting them to an unwilling declining America or less rich middle east or making them refugees like shitistan

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 21:20

chola wrote:
Innovation comes after you get the process down right. For all of Shiv's disdain for the NRIs, we can get the process down right. We do not get to those CEO positions by f-ing things up.

Stop being paranoid. I'm saying it like it is. I was also an NRI and a huge portion of my family and friends circle still reside in the land where some people get extremely upset if they hear criticism. Need to swallow hard facts.

And it amuses me to see you include yourself by saying "We" did not get those CEO positions by f--ing things up. Who said you great CEOs f--ed things up? You great CEOs have produced nothing that the world remembers and zlich for India- No need to get upset at facts.

Since you are back - I am out of this discussion

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby tushar_m » 22 May 2017 21:35

Lot of Hit Job Articles in media about FGFA means that the deal is about to be signed.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JohnTitor » 22 May 2017 21:59

I'm not of the belief that shiv is anti-NRI or such. I do see his point in that being at the top doesn't necessarily help with innovation. It is true, but equally true is that there are hardly any innovative indian companies out there - defence or otherwise. Where is the indian BMW, the indian apple, microsoft or twitter. Innovation needs people with practical experience but it also needs a system that finances them and a govt that backs that up with orders to make such innovation based companies financially viable.

shiv wrote:There was a news item recently that stated that China was concentrating on research to make ball bearings for ball point pens. Duh. I thought. China has been doing screwdrivergiri for ballpoint pens for decades now but had to import every single ball. Now after having given their people jobs and incomes doing screwdrivergiri - they have decided to screw the ball bearing manufacturers by innovating and trying to get the little ball right. So the idea that screwdrivergiri can never lead to the need to innovate or spending on innovation needs to be looked at in the context of the advantages of screwdrivergiri in keeping a young population bulge employed rather than exporting them to an unwilling declining America or less rich middle east or making them refugees like shitistan

Doesn't your own post suggest that no amount of "screwdrivergiri" will lead to innovation? You yourself say that china that did "screwdrivergiri" is now churning out research on balls for ballpoint pens. If "screwdrivergiri" was so great then why bother with the research? (btw.. i know that there is a lot of tech in that simple ball in the ballpoint pens).

"screwdrivergiri" works only when there is a parallel system that can understand the fundamentals of what these people are "screwdrivergiri"-ing and learn from it and make improvements. If all you are doing is assembling ikea furniture there is no way you can learn to make that furniture yourself! You need someone who understands the physics/chemistry/nuclear engineering etc to know why each bolt is where, why that particular material is used, when it fails why it fails etc etc

The problem with the indian defense establishment (not pvt players) is that there is no need to innovate, they can just buy boxes of stuff, assemble them and their jobs are safe. PSU workers have jobs for life. There is no incentive to innovate, no ecosystem to do it in and no political will to push for it.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 22:07

JohnTitor wrote:
"screwdrivergiri" works only when there is a parallel system that can understand the fundamentals of what these people are "screwdrivergiri"-ing and learn from it and make improvements. If all you are doing is assembling ikea furniture there is no way you can learn to make that furniture yourself! You need someone who understands the physics/chemistry/nuclear engineering etc to know why each bolt is where, why that particular material is used, when it fails why it fails etc etc

No my post says that screwdrivergiri should not be looked at with disdain. It creates jobs and gives hands on experience. And the only innovation in India by Indians, limited and crude as it may be, has come from the screwdrivergiri people right here in India and not from the hajjar Indian advisers, wise men, mockers and knicker-knotted people who crinkle their noses at screwdrivergiri but have not shown any ability to produce anything I can recall either in India or abroad, for India or for the country of their choice.

We need screwdrivergiri and we need it badly to employ tens of millions of people and I believe that will lead to more innovation than the tons of advice thrown out about how screwdrivergiri and innovation have no link. All the evidence so far says that the people who started with screwdrivergiri went on to innovate.

We will not have innovation without the skill base built up by screwdriver giri, Scredrivergiri and innovation are inextricably interlinked.


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