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PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JohnTitor » 22 May 2017 22:14

^^ No qualms there then. As far as i'm concerned all jobs need to be treated with respect. India needs to come of age and have dignity of labour. From the cleaner all the way to the CEO.

Perhaps GoI should focus on getting those who do the assembling into academic courses. It doesn't have to be a 3year course as such. Even a 3-6 month course on material science, aerodynamics or whatever pertains to their field will help. As part of it, they should be asked to do research while working and submit it within 6-12months.. its a win-win situation for everyone. The research will help with innovation, the employees learn and the country gains.

The key still remains the education system. If instead of focusing on mugging up chapters of sentences, students actually learnt the fundamentals, it would be so much better. They should be taught to think independently, understand what they are learning and not simply learn the questions and the answer to them.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 23 May 2017 11:13

The IN has had the best results becos of the Naval design bureau that designs all their warships. They are in control,not the DRDO,ADA.HAL,CVRDE,whoever. Thus they save time .It is when the weapon system,sensor that needs to come from abroad is where they run into difficulties.Babudom ensures that the usual time needed to cobweb the deal is enforced. DRDO cock-up on the B-8,supposed JV but actually entirely Israeli,where this one missile is allegedly being fudged as if it is two diff. types! But even here,there have been allegations that the IN has changed the components/systems,etc., after construction has begun. In a long gestation period like those for warships,newer more capable and perhaps smaller,lighter,systems start appearing with enhanced capabilities..If you look at our Talwars,etc., BMos has replaced Klub/Uran. In a few years time BMos-M/L will start replacing the earlier variants on later warships.

The IA has with Arjun kept raising the bar for dozens of improvements which after implementation has increased the weight so much that the IAnow says it is much too heavy to induct! :rotfl: We are in "Sgt.Bilko" land it sometimes seems!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 24 May 2017 00:32

Cross-posting:

Kartik wrote:Export version of Z-19 conducts maiden flight

Image

Looks weird..the Dauphin heritage is obvious, but the large fenestron tail makes it look very ungainly.


It is nothing more than a Dauphin variant built in China. Wiki says AS365 "production patent" was bought in October of 1980 and since then the PRC had modified the base French design, Z-9, into a dozen different versions.

Z-19E is the just the latest of many.

Anything to learn here? This is what a properly negotiated ToT should look like, right? You buy the patent. Its yours.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 24 May 2017 00:43

Why can't we negotiate the same kind of patent buys?

Being able to buy one design and homebuild many, many versions from it is going to create many, many times more jobs than a single run screwdrivergiri like the MKI. Or the FGFA unless we negotiate smarter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Z-9
Z-9
Chinese license produce of the French AS.365N1.
Z-9A
Chinese kit-built version of the AS.365N2.
Z-9A-100
Prototypes for domestic market versions with WZ8A engines. First flight 16 January 1992, approved 30 December 1992.
Z-9B
Initial version based on Z-9A-100. Multi-role.
Z-9C
Chinese license produce of the Eurocopter AS.565 Panther given to the PLA Naval Air Force.
Z-9EC
ASW variant produced for the Pakistan Naval Air Arm. Configured with pulse-compression radar, low frequency dipping sonar, radar warning receiver and doppler navigation system, it is also armed with torpedoes for use aboard Pakistan Navy's F-22P Zulfiquar class frigates.[6]
Z-9W (WZ-9)
Armed version with optional pylon-mounted armament and gyro stabilized, roof-mounted optical sight. Export designation Z-9G, roof-mounted sight optional. First flown in 1987, with the first weapons tests in 1989.[7]
Z-9WA
A newer night-capable version has been built with nose-mounted FLIR. July 2011, Xinhua News Agency released a photo of Z-9WA firing ADK10 air-to-ground missile.[8] Incorporates a domestic Chinese helmet mounted sight that is compatible with anti-tank missiles such as HJ-8/9/10, as well as light anti-ship missiles such as C-701/703 and TL-1/10 when they are used as air-to-surface missiles, air-to-air missiles such as TY-90 and other MANPAD missiles for self-defense.[9]
H410A
Version with 635 kW WZ8C turbo-shaft engines. First flight September 2001, CAAC certification 10 July 2002. One is currently being fitted with a new Mast-Mounted Sighting (MMS) system.
H425
Newest VIP version of the H410A.
H450
Projected development.
WZ-19
Stealthy attack helicopter development with tandem seats. The WZ-19 shares the same power plant as the WZ-9WA.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 24 May 2017 03:00

^^^ Nice cross post Chola.
Yep much much to learn for us all.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby shiv » 24 May 2017 07:45

Khalsa wrote:^^^ Nice cross post Chola.
Yep much much to learn for us all.

Yes i have learned something. I have learned that when you buy a patent for a helicopter you get patent for body, rotor blades, gearbox, engine, avionics and all systems and they are all yours even if different companies made them for the European OEM

I think if we involve Indians like PC Sorcar in the negotiation we could do that. Especially when we want it done fast

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 24 May 2017 12:16

shiv wrote:
Khalsa wrote:^^^ Nice cross post Chola.
Yep much much to learn for us all.

Yes i have learned something. I have learned that when you buy a patent for a helicopter you get patent for body, rotor blades, gearbox, engine, avionics and all systems and they are all yours even if different companies made them for the European OEM



Yes, they own the license to the Dauphin which is why the chinis are able create variants of the thing ad infinitum. If not then what is the alternate explanation of their ability to take this design, do with it as they see fit and export it, all the while retaining French and EU cooperation for other projects like C919?

One production patent to bind them all.

I think if we involve Indians like PC Sorcar in the negotiation we could do that. Especially when we want it done fast



PC Sorcar comes from the same corrupt and self-defeatist system. So the magician would have cowarded before the gora he is parlaying with and accepted a single run screwdrivergiri that would provide jobs only for the duration of the contract. TOT, my arse, that's nothing but subcontracting to a single order.

I suggest Indra Nooyi. A woman. Tamil. Clawed her way to top of the American corporate landscape. Faced and stared down any multitude of gora powersuits on her way up. She won't act like a cowering sahib.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Gaur » 19 Jul 2017 17:31

India, Russia contract soon on 5th generation fighter aircraft
http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/india-russia-contract-soon-on-5th-generation-fighter-aircraft-eds-updating-with-more-quotes-117071900831_1.html

India and Russia will soon sign a contract for jointly developing the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft, a top Russian official has said.

Sergei Chemezov, the CEO of Rostec State Corporation, said that all decisions over the multi-billion dollar project to jointly develop the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) will be finalised in the "nearest future".

India and Russia inked an inter-governmental pact for the FGFA project in 2007.

"As for the 5th generation (fighter aircraft) - the work is underway. Stage one is over. Now we are discussing the second stage. And I think that in the nearest future, all decisions will be made and the contract documents will be signed," Chemezov told reporters on the sidelines of Russia's premier air show MAKS 2017 here.

"But the work is going, it is very complicated, so it is not going fast," said the head of Rostec, Russia's umbrella organisation of 700 hi-tech civilian and military firms.

He stressed that Russia was the only country for India that without any restrictions transfers all technologies.

Chemezov's remarks came more than two months after government sources in New Delhi had said that almost all the ground work had been completed to finalise the deal for the design of the FGFA jet as well as some other critical issues.

"The contract for the detailed design would be signed soon and that will be a major milestone. It should be signed in the second half of the year," a top official involved in the negotiations with Russia on the project had said.

The official had said that both the countries are co- developers and India will have equal rights over the technology.

In February last year, India and Russia had revived talks on the project after a clearance from then defence minister Manohar Parrikar.

Since then, a lot of issues related to work share, Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) and technology transfer among others have been sorted out between the two sides, along with the monetary commitments.

In December 2010, India agreed to pay USD 295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter, which is called in India as the 'Perspective Multi-role Fighter' (PMF).

However, negotiations faced various hurdles in the subsequent years.

Chemezov also talked about Russia's own fifth generation fighter jet programme PAK FA.

"Today one of Rostec's key project milestones is the development of the second stage engine for PAK FA. New construction solutions have been used in the development process, which are unparalleled in Russian engine building," he said.

Talking about other projects of Indo-Russia cooperation, Chemezov said apart from the Ka-226, the two sides have an enterprise that has been working for a long time producing cruise missiles Brahmos.

"They are already completely localised today. Already completely produced in India. This is one of the first projects that we implemented in India. As well as, T 90, Su- 30MKI. That is a fairly large number of projects - some have already been implemented, some are being implemented," he added.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 20 Jul 2017 01:36

^^^^ se top roosian offisial from ze mother rossiya
I drink more invisible Vodka to celebrate the victory to reach this milestone.

SALUT !!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 20 Jul 2017 11:33

Still some way to go,but in the light of the PRC aggro in the mountains,def. deals pending will surely be speeded up.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JayS » 20 Jul 2017 18:14

When was this FGFA/PAKFA saga started exactly..??

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ShauryaT » 20 Jul 2017 18:37

There is no saga for the Russian ware is not ready yet. I think many are getting suckered into words like "equal" partnership etc. This is a Russian product that India will buy with an ability to customize heavily not available from any other nation. It is not to be looked upon as a replacement for our own indigenous efforts. It is when we conflate the two that gives rise to heart burns.

In this instance IAF is probably doing it right. The only issue that we can possibly do but even that is a far reach is to pay enough monies to the Russians not to let the craft or its key technologies reach Chinese hands.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 21 Jul 2017 04:23

JayS wrote:When was this FGFA/PAKFA saga started exactly..??

When my grandfather was being conceived

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 21 Jul 2017 11:26

Pretty "eng" grandpa what?! :rotfl:

The PAK-FA fighter was conceived over a decade ago,but around 7-8 years ago,The Sukhoi programme was preferred to MIG's I.42 whatever,the rival stealth design.We were offered a partnership in the programme.We could not join in in the early days becos of a sheer lack of design resources.I remember 4 -5 years ago,after the IJT crash ,that the IJT team was also being tasked with the FGFA programme! Simply ludicrous. The RU min. of the day also said in an interview that we had to quickly make up our minds at aspects of the design we wanted to do as work was proceeding fast (Putin speed).It was not an issue of moolah for the same.We simply "couldn't do the biz",esp. since the LCA project was also languishing.So what took place was that the first prototypes were entirely designed/developed for the RUAF's needs.By now we had woken up and just like the Arjun,wanted "X" number of changes after seeing the bird in the flesh.In fact we even wanted a two-seat version to boot for the IAF.When told how long that would take to develop and the extra costs involved,it appears to have been thankfully shot down.

After the usual half-decade of discussions,confabulations,etc.,etc.,all technical issues have been sorted out-so say official reports,costs too,the first prototypes for our pilots to get their hands on the bird I think is one of the last remaining issues.Final numbers vary with each report. Though the IN has now shelved the 3rd large carrier for the "next 15 yrs",it would do well to request a briefing on the naval version being planned which will appear only in the next decade,so that it could at least factor in the dimensions for the design when it eventually starts,so that its options increase.

What the Russians are planning and hopefully we follow too,is to use some elements of the FGFA in their Flanker upgrades/SU-35.The proposed upgrade of between 220-240 MKIs to Super-Sukhoi std. with BMos,etc.,should incorporate some of these elements,including any desi tech/systems developed for the LCA/AMCA.These upgrades are an excellent opportunity for us to close the gap,evaluate the performance, and increase the desi content of our FGFAs when they arrive and are built in India. Leveraging whatever tech is used on the FGFA/MKI upgrades,it should help us to develop a stealth LCA (some reports hinted at),which could arrive /replace the MK-2.It would then make developing the AMCA much easier.

Meanwhile,some new news from Ru about an SE stealth bird.

Russia’s MiG Company mulls single and twin-engine options for 5th generation warplane
Military & Defense July 18, 17:38 UTC+3
Russia currently has only one fifth-generation plane - the PAK FA

ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 18. /TASS/. Russia’s MiG Aircraft Corporation is considering the options of a fifth-generation warplane with a single engine or twin motors, MiG CEO Ilya Tarasenko said at the MAKS-2017 international airshow on Tuesday.
"We are considering both options," he said in response to the relevant question.
READ ALSO
Russia’s advanced MiG-35 fighter jet to go into serial production in 2019
Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin earlier said that MiG would develop its own fifth-generation warplane.
Russia currently has only one fifth-generation plane - the PAK FA (Perspective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) developed by the Sukhoi design bureau. The PAK FA took to the skies for the first time in 2010 and is expected to start arriving for the Russian Aerospace Force in the imminent future.
Meanwhile, MiG has said it considers developing a lighter fifth-generation fighter jet that could be based on the MiG-35 fighter.
READ ALSO
Russia may start exporting advanced MiG-35 fighter jet in couple of years
Russian aircraft designer to produce two newest PAK FA fighter jets
http://tass.com/defense/956798

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby JayS » 21 Jul 2017 12:46

I should have been more specific. Kindly let me know in what year India started taking serious interest in PAKFA to make our own version FGFA from it. I have not been following this too much.

Let me also state my reason behind the question. I am thinking how many years it takes to buy a 5th Gen aircraft for India in real life. And how does that compare with how much time India might take to make one from scratch i.e. for AMCA, once we start funding it seriously that is.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby srai » 21 Jul 2017 13:54

^^^
30-years would be typical for new generation level fighter. 15-years to design and develop culminating in first flight. Another 15-years for flight testing to FOC.

So far India has spent around seven years (or less) in design work and other technologies. If next round of funding is given now, ADA is saying they can achieve first flight in seven years or so (~2025). Then another 15-years for flight testing. So that's around 22-years (~2040) for FOC. IOC could happen with 10-years of flight testing, or by 17-years (~2035).

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 21 Jul 2017 14:51

Philip wrote:
The PAK-FA fighter was conceived over a decade ago,but around 7-8 years ago,The Sukhoi programme was preferred to MIG's I.42 whatever,the rival stealth design.



Sukhoi was selected over MiG to develop the 5th generation fighter in April of 2002. Not 7-8 years ago, but 15 years ago. The subsequent work led to the design maturation and first flight of the prototype. In fact, it was 7.5 years ago that the first T-50 prototype took to the air.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 22 Jul 2017 12:53

Image

Hello from MiG

that landing gear look Navalised to you ?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby abhik » 22 Jul 2017 13:21

^^^
Because it was photoshopped from a naval fighter?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 22 Jul 2017 13:49

Looks like creative imagination and PS stuff from fanbois

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 22 Jul 2017 13:57

Pics of PAK-FA from MAKS 2017

Image
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Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 22 Jul 2017 14:07

Solo Display by T-50 at MAKS


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Lisa » 22 Jul 2017 22:08

^ Is it me or is there no smoke?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2017 01:52

^^^if you are referring to the exhaust from the engines, please look closely at the 3rd and 9th pictures from top.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Jul 2017 02:29

Uhh what's the big deal with smoke wrt pakfa..... To be expected in certain regimes, even F-22 does.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 23 Jul 2017 05:31

During an air show or at times when you are using rapid throttle adjustments you will see slight smoke even with modern smokeless engines. What you do not want is to look like this -

Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby sarang » 23 Jul 2017 12:40

brar_w wrote:Image


Is this chinese Jackass-33

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Lisa » 24 Jul 2017 00:05

Rakesh wrote:^^^if you are referring to the exhaust from the engines, please look closely at the 3rd and 9th pictures from top.


I was quite lucky last week, saw the Raptor flying. Even it smokes but altogether IMHO, the PAK-FA smokes, a lot less than a Mig 29 for example. See this video from last week at 3:16. Its not the only time you see as much smoke as 3rd and 9th picture, IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcCinGD3E0E

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby brar_w » 24 Jul 2017 00:34

Lisa wrote:
Rakesh wrote:^^^if you are referring to the exhaust from the engines, please look closely at the 3rd and 9th pictures from top.


I was quite lucky last week, saw the Raptor flying. Even it smokes but altogether IMHO, the PAK-FA smokes, a lot less than a Mig 29 for example. See this video from last week at 3:16. Its not the only time you see as much smoke as 3rd and 9th picture, IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcCinGD3E0E



As I said in my earlier post, at airshows you are making rapid and fine adjustments to the throttle and the higher and higher you go on military power most engines including the most advanced ones will generate a little bit of smoke at that very limit. The reason you see it more during dynamic maneuvers is because the pilot is either exiting or entering another set of maneuvers and short of lighting burners is playing around with high MIL settings to be at a desired speed. This is different from older engines where they basically smoked at most thrust settings.

BTW that video is from 2010.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Lisa » 24 Jul 2017 13:33


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 25 Jul 2017 12:40

Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Jul 2017 18:02

^ wow. Thanks for the eye candy Austin. That bird is a stunner.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 26 Jul 2017 01:34

Sexy

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby nash » 26 Jul 2017 12:00

https://sputniknews.com/military/201707 ... ew-engine/

IMO we should go for around 36 PAK-FA till FGFA comes, if at all it come. We may go for the package deal of 36 PAK-FA with the Super 30 Upgrade in PAK-FA configuration(Radar and other avionics) and ask the OEMs to manufacture component under Make in India for Su-30, Pak-Fa and even upcoming FGFA.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 26 Jul 2017 19:03

It looks like the Lamborghini of the air! An absolutely stunner of a design which should be put up in a museum of modern art what?!

Given thew urgency of the situ,picking up 2 sqds. of std. RuAF FGFAs with some desi input,would be v.wise until our tweaked version is pefected and another 120+ built at home. The Su-30MKI upgrade to SS std. could as suggested in the above post ,could share similar components built here,so that the local supply chain is well established before built-in-India birds start arriving.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 26 Jul 2017 20:30

One noob question (please pardon if it has been addressed before)

Are the canards/LERX on the PAK-FA not obstructing the clean air flow to the engine inlets ? Or is that just an optical illusion ?

The canards on the Typhoon and Rafale both seem well clear of the engine inlets at all angles

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Kashi » 27 Jul 2017 07:55

Are we still talking of $100 million fly away cost and probably double that with all the bells and whistles?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby viveks » 27 Jul 2017 09:35

wonderful photography.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby SaiK » 31 Jul 2017 08:08

Indo-Russian Gen-5 fighter gets green light; $6 bn negotiated for joint R&D
Experts find 'no conflict with indigenous AMCA fighter'; prototypes will fly in India in 3 years

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 429_1.html

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 31 Jul 2017 08:15

Shukla ji reporting latest final on fgfa

Standard learns that an Experts Group, headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, has submitted a report on July 7, finding that the FGFA project would be beneficial to India.
How many geniuses in MOD it takes to replace a light bulb?

Reliable sources tell Business Standard that India and Russia have negotiated a draft R&D Contract, which commits both sides to spending $6.1 billion on the project –$3.05 billion each.[/quote]Not sure if his sources have been reliable in past

At least six PAK-FA prototypes are already participating in flight-testing and flying displays, such as at the recent Paris Air Show. The draft R&D Contract commits Sukhoi to build the eighth, ninth and tenth prototypes for flight-testing in HAL, by Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots.


That means that, if the R&D Contract is signed this year, IAF pilots could be testing FGFA prototypes in Indian skies by 2020.

till then, do indians get tickets to the MAKS shows??

Russian designers have claimed that the PAK-FA’s new engine would be ready to fly by December.
Which year?? this next or next decade??

Because there are no dates mentioned in it, so it is as good as Sir Jadeja's triple century, ok slightly better
Last edited by ArjunPandit on 31 Jul 2017 23:41, edited 1 time in total.


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