How many squadrons we need to replace till 2035? Already committed to about 20 squadrons of LCA variants, 2 to 4 of SU30MKI, 2 to 6 of Rafale.Srutayus wrote:https://www.myind.net/Home/viewArticle/ ... -air-force
Comparisons related to of a hypothetical choice between the FGFA and the F-35 by former IAF pilot, Vijainder K Thakur.
The IAF is currently neither well networked, nor is it equipped with stand-off weapons compatible with F-35 operations.
Networking IAF assets to an extent where they could fully leverage the F-35's ability to sniff out targets in highly contested airspace will take many years and very large infrastructure investments, something that India's economic prowess would not be able to support for many years.
The Su-57's inability to super cruise is likely to be addressed by 2025 when its stage 2 Product 30 engine, which is already under flight testing, becomes widely available. Even if a procurement / joint manufacture contract for the FGFA with Russia were to be signed today, it's unlikely that supplies of the aircraft would start before 2025. The criticism over the Su-57's inability to super cruise is dubious for other reasons too. The ability to super cruise enables a fighter to reach its target area faster and with greater reserve of fuel. Super cruise is a very useful concept for nations such as the US, with adversaries spread all over the world, and Russia, a country of phenomenal geographical extent with adversaries on all sides. For a country like India, which can base and operate its fighter from close proximity of adversary borders, supercruise is largely of academic interest.
The Su-57's radar cross section (rcs) value of 0.1-0.5m is significantly higher than the F-22 (0.0001) and the F-35 (0.0015). We have already discussed how the Su-57 compensates for its limited stealth with powerful EW capability and super maneuverability. Additionally, the Su-57 features a more powerful radar sensor suite. The aircraft has five radars: 3 X-band AESA, one in the nose and two on the sides, and 2 L-band in the leading edge root (LEX) extension of the wings.
L-Band radars are more effective against VLO targets, such as the F-22 and F-35, which are optimized only against X-Band frequencies, but their longer wavelengths reduce their resolution.
By fusing the sensor outputs of the 3 X-band AESA and the 2 L-band AESA radars with the output from its IRST (Infrared search and track), the Su-57 can track the F-22 and the F-35 at greater ranges than would be possible using just a single X-band AESA.
Transfer of Technology
Any comparison (performance or suitability) between the Su-57 and F-35 can be debated. What cannot be debated is that the F-35 will come with no ToT. Here, it will be pertinent to point out that the alleged high cost of the FGFA deal is attributable to ToT and the desire for equal partnership in local manufacture. Russian willingness to part with strategic technology for a price should be more important to India, than the perceived reasonableness or otherwise of the price.
The F-35 would also come with many strings attached, one of which (explicit or implicit) could well be to limit our defense collaboration with Russia. Whether that is good or bad for the country is for the reader to decide.
Conclusion
The Su-57 is a budget 5th generation fighter, the F-35, a weapon system for the rich. The IAF must decide whether it's a budget air force or a great economic power air force.
The IAF can be happy with the Su-57's superior ability to operate in contested airspace when compared to any fighter in the IAF's current or near future inventory. Alternatively, the IAF can rue the much higher RCS of the Su-57 when compared with the F-22 and F-35. What the IAF must remember, however, is that the PAF and PLAAF would be equipped with the F-20, not the F-22 or F-35. So what it really needs is an aircraft that could take on the F-20, something that the Su-57 would be able to do effectively.
Some clear inaccuracies apparent at a first pass - The F-35 has a very capable EW suite..one could argue that it is amongs the most capable in the US if not the West for a Multi-Role fighter aircraft is concerned. The purpose of the EW suite is to first and foremost provide self-protection (as most integrated EW suites are supposed to do) against surface and air launched threats but also to aid the aircraft's offensive operations either organically or in a net-centric manner. Here the EW suite's performance is amplified against seekers given that they will find it much more difficult to engage a LO aircraft the same way they do with a non VLO aircraft.Srutayus wrote:https://www.myind.net/Home/viewArticle/ ... -air-force
Comparisons related to a hypothetical choice between the FGFA and the F-35 by former IAF pilot, Vijainder K Thakur.
Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jets successfully tested in Syria
Military & Defense March 01, 17:38 UTC+3
Su-57 stealth fighter jet© Sergei Bobylev/TASS
MOSCOW, March 1. /TASS/. Two Sukhoi Su-57 stealth fighter jets have successfully completed a two-day program of tests in Syria, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu told reporters on Thursday.
"Indeed, they were there for a while. Two days. During that time, they completed a program of trials, including combat ones," Shoigu said. "I can say that the trials were success and the planes returned home a week ago."
"There were two planes escorted by flying laboratories and test beds monitoring the parameters of weapons work," the defense minister continued.
Commenting on the satellite images, uploaded on the Internet, allegedly featuring the Su-57 fighter jets, Shoigu said, "As for various satellite photos, I can state that now is not the year of 1995 and such planes are never located side by side."
"I am unaware where the released images were taken as the jets were kept in hangars throughout [the mission]," the minister said.
The Su-57 (PAK FA) performed its maiden flight in 2010. On December 5, it made the first flight with a new engine. Currently, the plane is equipped with the so-called stage-on engine 117C. The new engine has been given no name so far and is conventionally referred to as "stage-two engine."
It was reported in August 2017 that Russia’s the PAK FA fifth-generation fighter jet had received the serial index of Su-57. The experimental design work on the most advanced fighter jet should be completed in 2019 and its deliveries to the troops should begin at that time.
http://tass.com/defense/992335
Been trawling Russian BRF sites. The consensus there also points to Су-57 being found abhorrently expensive for IAF and the idea coming up of offering a "Silent Su-35" in place. The Russian believe that a modified Su-35 can be a better export contender to not only India but Arab markets.Viv S wrote:
Warfare
логотип The Diplomat The Diplomat , Japan
Многоцелевой сверхманевренный истребитель Су-35 во время демонстрационного полета на Международном авиационно-космическом салоне МАКС - 2013 в Жуковском
© RIA Novosti, Ramil Sitdikov | Go to the photobank
Can Russia create a version of the Su-35 fifth generation for India?
The insignificant Su-35 is what India needs to keep up with China and Pakistan.
02/24/2018 40 13070
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Abraham Ait
The future of the Indian program for the creation of a fifth-generation fighter (FGFA) based on the Russian Su-57 is in question today, and in these circumstances Moscow is negotiating with New Delhi to develop a fifth-generation version of the Su-35 for India. If this plan is implemented, the Indian Air Force will receive a fighter of winning superiority in the air of the fifth generation at a lower cost than the modification of the Su-57. India has an acute need for such a machine in the light of the fact that neighboring China is adopting a heavy fighter of the fifth generation J-20.
At the international exhibition of arms and military equipment in Abu Dhabi, the head of the Russian "Rostekh" Sergei Chemezov said: "We are holding talks and signed a protocol of intentions on the Su-35. Now we are developing ideas for this contract and are working on creating a production base for a fifth-generation aircraft. "
It is not yet clear what the volume of the possible Indian order will be, but this country can buy more than 100 cars if we take into account the volume of previous orders and the planned volume of orders for a fifth-generation FGFA fighter.
If the reports on the development of the fifth-generation platform based on the Su-35 are correct, the results can be very intriguing, and it is possible that Russia will create one of the most modern fighters in the world. The standard design of the Su-35 completely corresponds to the characteristics of a fifth generation fighter, except that it does not have the properties of low visibility. The variant Su-35 of the fifth generation, most likely, will be nothing more than a modification of this fighter of the "4 ++" generation, but with the characteristics of low visibility.
Context
Малозаметный многоцелевой истребитель Т-50 (Су-57)
The Su-57 will challenge the F-22 and F-35
AldriMer.no 12/18/2012
Su-35 vs F-16: who will win?
The National Interest 10/04/2017
War makes the Su-35 even more formidable
The National Interest 06/08/2017
New Russian engine "will kill" F-22
Sina.com 01/29/2018
This is not the first attempt to create such a modification. Since the United States does not want to export its fifth-generation F-22 Raptor for export, Boeing is carrying out a large-scale modification of the airframe of its F-15E strike fighter, trying to create the F-15SE model of the Silent Eagle. This is a variant of a fighter with a reduced frontal radar effective scattering surface and with a radio-absorbing coating. The F-15E does not have advanced on-board radio electronic equipment, modern missiles and the super maneuverability of the Su-35, and it can not be considered a fifth-generation airplane even with low-profile characteristics. However, the variant F-15E with the characteristics of invisibility will become a good substitute for the "Raptor" for the US allies, since it will be a machine with a low level of unmasking traits. Saudi Arabia, which currently has more than 150 F-15 and F-15E aircraft, is showing great interest in such a car. The proposed modifications of the Su-35 are likely to be largely similar to those implemented in the F-15E in order to create the F-15SE.
It remains to be seen whether Russia will want to export its Su-57. And as some potential buyers want to get a fighter of gaining superiority with unobtrusive characteristics, the modified version of the Su-35, created on the basis of the same concept as the F-15SE, may well be less expensive and very popular product. In 2017, the United Arab Emirates, in cooperation with Russia, began to develop a fifth-generation fighter, and also showed interest in purchasing Su-35 in large quantities. The unobtrusive version of this fighter, which meets the requirements for the fifth-generation platform, despite its weaker characteristics compared to the Su-57, can become an ideal vehicle for this Arab state, as well as for India.
By purchasing such airplanes, India will gain the most important advantages over such fighters of gaining superiority in the air as the upgraded Chinese J-11B and Su-30. As Pakistan creates its own light, low-profile fighter, New Delhi has an urgent need for stealth technology. The upgraded version of the Su-35 will cost much more than a standard fighter, and the requirements for its repair and maintenance will be much stricter and more burdensome. If the unobtrusive Su-35 is equipped with the latest Russian missiles, such as the K-77 (developed for the Su-57) or the R-37 interceptor missiles with a launch range of 400 kilometers, it will be truly deadly and effective with cost perspective an alternative to the FGFA fighter.
Japanese government was clear from the outset that their commitment to the ShinShin was always for that particular phase and that they would decide on whether to go ahead and pursue the F-3 only in the 2018-2020 timeframe after weighing things like cost, schedule, complexity with other investment priorities. There plan with the F-3 was for totally domestic product that included the engines. Needless to say, this would have taken a long time and would have been expensive (no doubt also, overall the best deal for their domestic capability and industry) but then the government has to weigh the positive economic impact to their industry of this move with the negative impact it would have caused elsewhere such as ship building, munitions, etc etc. They'll still end up building something locally to replace the F-2, it just own't be a completely Japanese product but likely some similar approach to the F-2.Khalsa wrote: Has F-35 production cancelled a domestic industrial product ?
Pakistan does not have the money and Russia is not in a position to offer anything free or even at "friendship prices". If China fiances it then they will suffer the blow back of free flow of US arms to Vietnam and even Indian arms on special terms to Vietnam.Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Added later: Of course one fallout of this deal falling through would be the Bakis being offered the Su-35/ Mig 35. I will actually believe the demise of the FGFA when I see some credible news (non Baki source corroborating) of the PAF being offered either of these aircraft.
Thanks for the informative post. Brar.brar_w wrote:Japanese government was clear from the outset that their commitment to the ShinShin was always for that particular phase and that they would decide on whether to go ahead and pursue the F-3 only in the 2018-2020 timeframe after weighing things like cost, schedule, complexity with other investment priorities. There plan with the F-3 was for totally domestic product that included the engines. Needless to say, this would have taken a long time and would have been expensive (no doubt also, overall the best deal for their domestic capability and industry) but then the government has to weigh the positive economic impact to their industry of this move with the negative impact it would have caused elsewhere such as ship building, munitions, etc etc. They'll still end up building something locally to replace the F-2, it just own't be a completely Japanese product but likely some similar approach to the F-2.Khalsa wrote: Has F-35 production cancelled a domestic industrial product ?
If there economy was booming, or their maritime threat not as severe as it is now (pace of chinese ship building) then things would have been different but in this case their decision is an economic one.
Can anyone confirm this?As the Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov recently noted, the flight tests of the Su-57 with the engine of the second stage will last about three years. December 5, 2017, the fighter made the first flight with a new engine, at the helm was the Hero of Russia, the chief-pilot of the company "Sukhoi" Sergei Bogdan, the flight lasted 17 minutes.
Russian power over us will continue as long as the percentage of arms we have does not fall to ~20% or less. Right now, it's about 70%Vips wrote:....
If Russia sells arms to Pakistan then it knows all future arms sells to India will be on the line.Question is will it be willing to loose its biggest market - India to sell a couple of squadrons to pakistan?
..
Yes it started test in December picture must be posted somewhere in this threadMukesh.Kumar wrote:Seems that PAKFA has a new engine running on the 10th prototype.
Russian sources from Jan'18Can anyone confirm this?As the Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov recently noted, the flight tests of the Su-57 with the engine of the second stage will last about three years. December 5, 2017, the fighter made the first flight with a new engine, at the helm was the Hero of Russia, the chief-pilot of the company "Sukhoi" Sergei Bogdan, the flight lasted 17 minutes.
As reported in the press release of United Engine-Building Corporation JSC , the final meeting of the State Commission for the turbojet engine AL-41F-1 concluded with the solemn presentation of the PJSC "UDK-UMPO" (part of the United Engine Corporation of Rostekh) to complete the state bench tests an experienced engine. The ceremony was held in the Moscow branch of the enterprise - the Experimental Design Bureau. A. Lyulka.
The engine AL-41F-1 in the territory of PJSC "UDK-UMPO", January 2018 (c) bmpd
Chairman of the State Commission Colonel VA. Bruskov handed over to the general designer-director of the OKB im. A. Lyulki E.Yu. Marchukov the document testifying to the end of the most important stage in the development of AL-41F-1.
Thus, 14-year experimental design work is completed. The AL-41F-1 performs the function of the first stage engine for the fifth-generation fighter Su-57 (PAK FA). The first test flight of PAK FA with AL-41F-1 took place on January 29, 2010.
The proposal for India and Russia to jointly develop an advanced fighter — the eponymous Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) — has been formally buried. Business Standard has learnt that National Security Advisor Ajit Doval conveyed the decision to a Russian ministerial delegation at a “Defence Acquisition Meeting” in end-February. Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, who attended the meeting, asked the Russians to proceed alone with developing their fifth-generation fighter. They said India might possibly join the project later, or buy the fully developed fighter outright, after it entered service with the Russian Air Force.
IAF chief clearly stated they are not looking at F-35 at all but Ajai Rants in twitter its unofficial and chides the chief.the FGFA’s burial sets the stage for the IAF to eventually acquire the F-35 Lightning II, which comes in air force as well as naval variants. Indian military aviation, once overwhelmingly dependent upon Russian fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, has steadily increased its purchases from America. On Tuesday, appearing before a US Senate panel for his confirmation hearings, Admiral Philip Davidson — nominated as the top US military commander in the Indo-Pacific, said the US should aspire to “break down” India’s historical dependence upon Russia.
Wish India gets that beautiful big white bird. Would be a great sight on a cold wintery landscape like Leh, particularly with that kind of new turbo-prop engine being tested out!Austin wrote:Appears that T-50-5 "055 Blue" Su-57 prototype has been carrying out aerial gun testing of its 30mm modernised variant of GSh-30-1 (9А1-4071К) by KBP. Images form 27.03.2018 at #Zhukovsky,
https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/sta ... 4252365824
Can you explain how is is not advanced in any of thesetsarkar wrote:Come on people
No practical advances in engine technology
No practical advances in Radar
No practical advances in EO
No practical advances in avionics
No practical advances in weaponry
All the above in conceptual, development or testing phase.
Why put money on PAK-FA?
Austin wrote:Can you explain how is is not advanced in any of these...
And as weapons goes, Karan had earlier commented that PAKFA is the only fifth generation fighter with WW2 bombstsarkar wrote:All the above in conceptual, development or [in the best case] testing phase
So why are the Russians making PGMs and spending money there? After all, WW2 dumb bombs are all that are required.Philip wrote:That's being biased by Karan in the extreme.WW2 "bombs" did rather well in Syria,far better than the much vaunted US and Western mizziles ,PGMs,etc.,etc.,including their latest missile attacks
And yet, we have precious little evidence of these - wreckage etc of missiles.where most were shot down by Sov. era SAMs!
The sad part is the back-to-the-future F-16s and F-18s have technology eg their AESA and EW suites which are likely better and more mature than anything on the PAK-FA test-bed. Let alone the weaponry and support equipment - sensors, pods etc which are clearly a generation ahead of whatever is on any Russian fighter. Just compare the latest versions of the Sniper with whats flying on the Su-27s.But then the full-court-press by the Yanquis in an attempt to armtwist us from buying Ru advanced weaponry in return for their back-to-the-future F-16s and F-18s is worthy of the Cyrus Broacha and Kunal treatment!
Chinmay wrote:The FGFA is dead
FWIW
The proposal for India and Russia to jointly develop an advanced fighter — the eponymous Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) — has been formally buried. Business Standard has learnt that National Security Advisor Ajit Doval conveyed the decision to a Russian ministerial delegation at a “Defence Acquisition Meeting” in end-February. Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, who attended the meeting, asked the Russians to proceed alone with developing their fifth-generation fighter. They said India might possibly join the project later, or buy the fully developed fighter outright, after it entered service with the Russian Air Force.
