PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

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yensoy
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby yensoy » 14 Jul 2018 21:53

Cain Marko wrote:Actually the Mig 29k cost was very low, if india wants to take advantage of Russian expertise and majboori, it needs to spend freely like the Chinese did in the 90s. Ownership of IP won't come cheap


And the best bang for the buck would be as the Chinese did, which is to hire all the top design engineers from Russia (who are willing to relocate), give them the autonomy and budget to work in conjunction with a locally grown pool of young & eager talent headed by a seasoned engineering manager to design the next gen fighter.

No need to buy the factory. No need to buy the plane and ToT. Just buy the people who know what to do.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Jul 2018 11:39

chola wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Actually the Mig 29k cost was very low, if india wants to take advantage of Russian expertise and majboori, it needs to spend freely like the Chinese did in the 90s. Ownership of IP won't come cheap


Cheap? Not particularly.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fighterplanes/texts/articles/MiG-29.html
First Deal: 12 MiG-29K and 4 MiG-29KUB contract signed in 20th January 2004 is worth Rs 3,405.61 crores as per CAG.[1][11] For an exchange rate of 45.43 at that time, the amount translates to $749.7 million.[10] Hence the average cost of a single MiG-29K is $46.9 million. The contracts for the jets also stipulate pilot training and aircraft maintenance, including the delivery of flight simulators and interactive ground and sea-based training systems. So the unit cost of the MiG-29K variant is still unknown.[2]

Second Deal: 29 MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB contract signed in March 2010 worth $1.5 billion.[2] So the average cost of the jet is $52 million. Another news release says the jets cost $1.2 billion. [3] That translates to an average cost of $42 million per plane. Most probably the deal also covers a whole host of other goodies, but the full details of the deal is still not yet available in the public domain. So the unit cost of the jet is still unknown. The Russian deal still not yet signed is said to be estimated at $1 billion for 24 jets.[9]


Buying MiG-29Ks off the shelf from a struggling MiG was at best penny-wise pound-foolish (if we consider $47-52M cheap — at same price for Super Hornet.) It was the best time to wrangle for IP, IMHO.


Hainji? Oz shornet cost with maintenance etc. Was around usd 6 billion in 2007 for 24 birds. I understand that they are aesa equipped and probably perform better but the cost difference is stark and not comparable at all. Usd 2.25 billion for 41 bird vs 6 billion for 24 shornet.

Getting the mig 29k was the most cost effective decision, and affordable. But you are right in that a chance at acquiring IP was probly lost but they'd have to buy more in that case. Probly should have combined the mrca with the naval purchase and a full 200 fulcrums should've been purchased with rights to local upgrade, mods and maintenance. The only other possibility was the Rafale in those days, and we all know how affordable French pastries are. A possibility that was seemingly considered but was for some reason left aside, was the procurement of naval version of the mki based on the su33. The footprint of the flanker with folded wing and nose is not that different, and possibly smaller than the mig. But there is a large capacity difference. Maintenance would've been easier too.

Yes, short term thinking has been the bane of Indian procurement. No real ip can be gained, there is loss of economies of scale, maintenance is a racket etc. Piecemeal acquisitions.... Real screw up.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 15 Jul 2018 14:51

$32M per 29K was an official figure put out at the time.Extras added to the overall cost.Look at the deal with Egypt in recent times for 29s and 35s.V.reasonable.$29M was a fig. given for dxtra RuAF 29s.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby kit » 15 Jul 2018 16:07

yensoy wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Actually the Mig 29k cost was very low, if india wants to take advantage of Russian expertise and majboori, it needs to spend freely like the Chinese did in the 90s. Ownership of IP won't come cheap


And the best bang for the buck would be as the Chinese did, which is to hire all the top design engineers from Russia (who are willing to relocate), give them the autonomy and budget to work in conjunction with a locally grown pool of young & eager talent headed by a seasoned engineering manager to design the next gen fighter.

No need to buy the factory. No need to buy the plane and ToT. Just buy the people who know what to do.


That's what everyone does .. and one of the reasons for the xeroxing abilities of China.. the copies and some key people

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 15 Jul 2018 18:40

flame bait deleted by admin

chola
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby chola » 16 Jul 2018 07:16

^^^ Filipov, stop acting so goddam gleeful about this. Even at 463 crores, the expenses spent on Tejas mostly go back into India’s MIC. What is spent on the SU-47 goes into Russia’s MIC.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 16 Jul 2018 08:26

oh he is having a field day.
He is now sitting in the Arjun and Tejas thread.

Bloody Hell !!

I remember when he used to scream from roof tops for us to sink as much money as possible in Tejas but not go for MMRCA.
Now his tone has changed.

Filipov remember, no matter what the outcome

We are not buying
-Mig-29
-Su30 MKI
-Su-34
-Su-35
-Su-57
MiG-1.44

we might go for

F-18
Gripen
Eurofighter
F-16
Rafael

so stop being so gleeful.
cause I heard the Indian Navy was looking to sell its Mig-29 to IAF and be done with the damned thing

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby habal » 16 Jul 2018 09:03

personal attack deleted

Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 16 Jul 2018 09:12

Knowing Philip for a long time I can say its "Highly Likely" he is an arms dealer/middle man/spare time forum writer/KGB spy/agent of influence/lobbyist/UFOlogist and more :lol:

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby jpremnath » 16 Jul 2018 11:37

It doesnt matter which one of the above he is...All that matters is his interest is not aligned with the interest of the country.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby rohan1424 » 16 Jul 2018 11:51

After the multiple accounts of getting cheated by russia , surprisingly there are people here rooting for russian products. Have they forgotten Vikramaditya , Mig-29,Su-30 mki (spares and availability) fiascoes ? We all know that our DPSUs are not up to the mark , but at least we can try to get them at a respectable level. GoI did the best thing by pulling out of Su-57 , otherwise it would have been another disaster for indian defense. There are many people in govt , IAF, HAL , media who want Tejas program to fail . But that is not going to happen.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 16 Jul 2018 14:42

^^oldies whats the point in making personal attacks. I may not agree to Philip but at least we can refrain from personal attacks.

Khalsa
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 16 Jul 2018 14:46

Fine, continue to enjoy your dual citizenship Filipov.
Continue to peddle your Russian wares....
just stop doing lungi dance when Tejas or Arjun is in trouble. I will consider that as a personal attack as well.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Kakarat » 16 Jul 2018 15:11

My dear fellow BRFites & Oldies this is the 'PAK-FA and FGFA Thread' and not some Bash Philip thread. Irrespective of what you throw at him he is going to ignore you and do the same thing what he does like always, so just ignore him and move on and don't wast your time.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby jpremnath » 16 Jul 2018 19:58

He does the same thing because most of the forum mods treat the said gentleman with kid gloves..probably under the impression any action might damage India Russia relationship. His presence in the LCA and Arjun thread is akin to a coffin salesman peddling his wares to family members outside an ICU.

Ok..thats it for me on this topic now...

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 16 Jul 2018 23:44

You think Philip is capable of affecting Indo-Russia geopolitics? Or Bharat-rakshak as a forum has the ability to affect Indo-Russia geopolitics?

Most moderators don't agree with Philip sir, but he is not breaking any forum-rules with his bias. Personally attacking him (or any body else) is against forum rules.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby nachiket » 19 Jul 2018 00:56

Philip, your posts running down indigenous programs in unrelated threads are nothing more than flame bait. And I will straightaway delete them as I come across them. You are trolling and continuing this behavior will attract official warnings.

Others, personal attacks on Philip or any other poster and calling them arms dealers or foreign agents etc. will immediately attract warnings and bans henceforth. I've edited the offending post this time.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby rajsunder » 28 Jul 2018 18:52

been seeing videos of PAKFA planning to stop assembly line production of PAKFA.


anyone with more information on this?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 28 Jul 2018 19:04

Crap , LRIP has started for Squadron Formation at Lipetsk Combat Training Center


Su-57 goes into the army , Air and space forces will begin to develop the newest fighter of the fifth generation in early 2019


https://iz.ru/767944/aleksei-ramm-aleksandr-kruglov/su-57-idet-v-armiiu

In early 2019, the Lipetsk 4th Combat Training Center (PSC) will receive two new production Su-57 aircraft. They will be tested by experienced test pilots, then commanders, pilots and technical personnel for winged vehicles will be trained in the center. Also, the "Aircraft Bible" will be created, which describes all the nuances of his work. According to military experts, the fact of the transfer of fighters to the air center of VKS indicates the imminent adoption of the first Russian fighter of the fifth generation for armament.


Onboard systems for a fighter of the sixth generation will be tested on the Su-57
As told Izvestia to the Defense Ministry, early next year, two serial Su-57 should be transferred to the 4th Center of Combat Training VKS.

Lipetsk Aviation Center is engaged in the development and implementation of new methods of combat use of aircraft systems. Here, the flying and engineering and technical personnel of combat units are retrained to pilot new types of aircraft. Earlier in the center, multifunctional fighters Su-30SM and Su-35S were ridden.

There is a two-stage system for adopting new aircraft in the air defense system. First serial copies are received by the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense (GLITS), which is located in the city of Akhtubinsk in the Astrakhan Region. This stage will be completed before the end of this year. After that, the Su-57 will be transferred to the Lipetsk Air Center.

Pilot instructors will first work at the pulp-and-paper plant with the Su-57. They will check the operation of the weapons system, radar stations, and conduct training launches of aviation weapons. Based on the results of the tests, they will have to formulate a combat training program, develop tactical techniques that will make the most effective use of flight characteristics, capabilities of airborne equipment and weapons of new aircraft. Only after that in Lipetsk will begin training pilots of the regimental regiments and squadrons.

In Akhtubinsk, testers will conduct research flights on critical regimes. That is, determine when the aircraft can fall into a tailspin, with what maximum speed and overload it can perform maneuvers safely for the pilot. In the course of these tests, once again check the strength of the Su-57 airframe designs.

Based on the results of the running of the Su-57, a flight operation manual (RLE) will be prepared. This set of reference materials and instructions is called the Aircraft Bible. The pilot should know this document almost by heart and strictly observe it. The manual, in particular, describes the scheme of the pilot's actions in the event of a particular incident or emergency situation. The leadership's knowledge has repeatedly saved pilots in critical situations.

Adoption of a new aircraft is a complex multi-stage process, which has a clear order and it must be observed, Izvestia was told by test pilot Hero of Russia Roman Taskaev.

"At first the planes pass the stage of preliminary tests," the expert said. - The developer is responsible for it. At this stage, the aircraft is run by civilian test pilots with the involvement of military aviation specialists. Then the machine is given a VCS.

In the 4th Combat Training Center, the Su-57's combat operation will actually begin, the former commander of the 4th Air Force and Air Defense Army, Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko told Izvestia.

- According to the recommendations of test pilots, minor corrections will be made to the instructions for piloting and combat use. The pilots will also inform their instructors about the design and operation of the aircraft itself. Usually at this stage, a serial production of new cars begins, - he explained.

According to the expert, the process of receiving the Su-57 in other parts of the VCS can take place in parallel. He is sure that only a few months will pass from admission to the pulp and paper plant before the delivery of the aircraft to the aviation units.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby rajsunder » 04 Aug 2018 19:49

good discussion by Rajya Sabha TV on the failure of FGFA Deal with russia.

Key Points:

TOT issue
Cost
Russians not sticking to the contract terms

Other:
Issues with AMCA


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby nvishal » 20 Aug 2018 17:27

India, Russia continue joint development of 5th generation fighter jet
India's continues to send RFI's to Russia regarding FGFA
"We continue to discuss with India joint development of a fifth generation fighter jet. The topic is not closed. It has been said that India is withdrawing from this project. No, they are not," he said in an interview with the Deistvuyushchiye Litsa (Political Actors) program on the Rossiya-1 television channel.

"I hope very much our talks will be ultimately crowned by the designing stage and we will develop our joint fifth generation aircraft," he added

tass.com/defense/1017788

From philips link
they (india) just ask a really large number of questions, to which, in our opinion, we give exhaustive answers


So the FGFA deal never actually happened in the first place. Media is asking whether india has withdrawn from the project. That question itself is not valid. Why to put money in "development" when ToT is not worth the value? Maybe considering off-the-shelf purchase

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Aug 2018 06:03

Expect pakfa MKI in due time...they are waiting for the new engine to come through. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rambla got a full upgrade at the same time. In the meanwhile, HAL will perhaps get the order for 40 more.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Vips » 21 Aug 2018 18:05

To keep the Russians happy India will order 36-40 (in fly away condition) of this 5th 4.5 generation aircraft.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Aug 2018 19:52

Well there was an initial Payment for pakfa fgfa

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby RKumar » 21 Aug 2018 20:43

Vips wrote:To keep the Russians happy India will order 36-40 (in fly away condition) of this 5th 4.5 generation aircraft.


How long do we have to pay blood money to keep other nation happy (Russian, USA, France, Germany, Israel, Italy ...)? This notion needs to go away ... at least from BRF

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 22 Aug 2018 00:32

RKumar wrote:
Vips wrote:To keep the Russians happy India will order 36-40 (in fly away condition) of this 5th 4.5 generation aircraft.


How long do we have to pay blood money to keep other nation happy (Russian, USA, France, Germany, Israel, Italy ...)? This notion needs to go away ... at least from BRF

Why? We are paying blood money to whomever we buy from. Why favour only the west?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Aug 2018 05:30

We are paying huge amounts for front-line fighters simply becos we haven't been able to do the biz.The LCA ( with much imported components) was meant to be a modest MIG-21( improved) replacement.Instead into a tiny airframe the attempt has been made to turn it into a mini M2K.And the pain of effort is showing.However we have to soldier on with the LCA to at least meet part of our requirements at home, so that more can be locally met in the future.The real gaping hole in desi tech are aero-engines.This lack of capability killed off the HF-24 and its
planned improved avatars.It is the key component of the AMCA and again two alternative engines must power ghe first protypes.

Come 2020 and once Chin stealth birds come a-calling, the FGFA requirement will increase in urgency.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 22 Aug 2018 07:31

When phillip says LCA comes with much imported components ... I am sure we can say FGFA will come with much imported components.
To be fair AMCA is the way forward

Lets Gripen our AMCA
build our frame, put Russian, Israeli , western components into it.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Aug 2018 10:06

Khalsa wrote:When phillip says LCA comes with much imported components ... I am sure we can say FGFA will come with much imported components.
To be fair AMCA is the way forward

Lets Gripen our AMCA
build our frame, put Russian, Israeli , western components into it.

Yes in fact AAMKA is so way, way forward that I don't think some of us will see it in this lifetime. In the meanwhile the adventurous Chinese continue to invest heavily into engines in their beg, borrow, steal fashion and are likely to start showing some threatening stealth design sooner or later. At that time India will be scampering either for jsfs with strings attached or pakfa with no support attached, take your pick.

For now though the airforce seems confident with the Rafale albeit I'm not sure it will help much with the likely scanty numbers thanks to the boondoggle created by the opposition.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby nvishal » 22 Aug 2018 11:15

Based on the RFIs from Indian side, the IA has said that FGFA does not meet the requirements of 5th gen.

There are other factors. The Indian side maybe using RFIs to fish for information that can assist the development of AMCA. The russian side may have realised this is giving vague answers in response to the RFI.

The Russian side may not be willing to give any credible access to the FGFA unless we invest in it.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Austin » 22 Aug 2018 13:17

Unless India decides to do away with Heavy Fighter like Flanker class say 20-25 years down the line and just have medium class fighter then it would be a different story , That is unlikely to happen as India grows in Economy and Strategic reach increases , if any thing esle IAF squadron number will only increase.

IAF inventory will have place for FGFA , AMCA and Light Fighter types and eventually they will replace the Flanker with FGFA just that there is no urgent need for it to do it today where replacing Light fighter is a priority and Medium fighter like 29 and M2K will be replaced by AMCA and Flanker will be by FGFA but they will be the last to go

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Aug 2018 13:58

I have been saying this for 20+ years on BRF.The acute need for an aero-engine organisation to design; drvelop and hand over for production aero-engines for all fixed and rotary wing aircraft.The HF-24, a brilliant design in its time was early retd. brcause of lack of an Indian engine.This shortsightedness and lack of accountability of those heading the GTRE has been reslonsible for our stunted growth in indigenous aircraft development.

Both the LCA and IJT programmes lost valuable time due to this factor- imported engines, US sanctions, etc.Even for marine engines we havd to tely on foreign OEMs, the UKR for Talwar FFGs, GE for others,etc. Had we joi ed ghd FGFA JV, we could've gained much from TOT for its new dngines, but in current circumstances , perhaps too high a cost to afford with other priorities for yhe IAF, namely large numbers to replace retiring MIGs.
However, the issue of such an aero-engine facility/ org. must be pursued as a top priority and reveive the reqd. funding.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Trikaal » 22 Aug 2018 15:39

^Russians will never share engine tech with us. Doesn't matter if you pay billions for FGFA or some Moontech Aircraft.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Aug 2018 19:10

From earlier reports, all technical matters had been resolved gor the JV after years of talks.The only sticking issue was the price of the JV and cosg of the India- specific prototypes which would differ from the std.SU-57.$4B invested right now into urgently reqd. more cost- effective smaller aircraft to replzce MIGs is z more pressing issue.Our 272 MKIs plus another 40 expected, with a large number planned for Super- Sukhoi std., should keep us happy for a little while longer until FGFAs are reqd.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Aug 2018 22:46

At the right time and place, everything is up for negotiation. We got the Su-30 as Boris Yeltsin desperately wanted to pay some workers in his constituency and needed some money, PVNR obliged. So, if we want the engine tech from Russia, what is India willing to offer or can offer that Russia needs?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Indranil » 23 Aug 2018 02:20

“All technical matters have been resolved”?!!!! The Indian side have not been shown many sides of the technology for which details were inquired.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Aug 2018 04:18

ShauryaT wrote:At the right time and place, everything is up for negotiation. We got the Su-30 as Boris Yeltsin desperately wanted to pay some workers in his constituency and needed some money, PVNR obliged. So, if we want the engine tech from Russia, what is India willing to offer or can offer that Russia needs?


FWIW, There was a report a few years ago, perhaps Austin had posted it, which suggested that the AL 31 tech, at least deeper levels of it, were available during mki contract negotiations in the late 90s when the big contract was signed but HAL was not interested.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 23 Aug 2018 14:29

Livefist reports Dmitri Shugaev, head of FSMTC, confirming India is temporarily pulling out of participation in the FGFA project, due to a financial constraint.

"The project could take on a different form of co-operation in the future - a JV or Technological cooperation instead of a Joint Project for a Joint Product"

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1032546297524506624

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Vips » 23 Aug 2018 17:39

With a new engine, Russia to re-pitch Su-57 stealth fighter project to India.

United Engine Corporation (UEC), Russias sole aero-engine manufacturer, has confirmed that the proposed "second stage" engine for the Su-57 stealth fighter jet will have a super-cruise feature which will form a part of the aircraft's stealth functionality. (So in other words it tried selling the bird with a lemon engine and only after India's refusal they are now offering it with a "new" engine capable of doing "super cruise")

Super-cruise is a key requirement for a stealth aircraft. Delay in its development is being cited as one of the main reasons for India reportedly halting its participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project with Russia, which involves developing a new aircraft based on the Su-57 development. The aircraft was previously called the PAK-FA.

"Super-cruise means an ability to cruise at supersonic speed without after-burners which translates into a lower heat signature besides enormous fuel savings," head of marketing of UEC, Anton Chechukov, told this correspondent.

The second stage engine, internally known as Izdelie-30, marked its first test flight in December 2017 on board a Su-57 fighter jet and further developments are going on, said Chechukov. He, however, refused to divulge any technical information or details of the development schedule, stating that the project was classified.

He added that the Izdelie-30 was the most advanced aircraft engine project ever to be conceived in Russia and would surpass its peers in performance.

Sources in United Aircraft Corporation, which is building the Su-57, and Rosoboronexport, the Russian arms export agency, separately told this correspondent that the stealth fighter programme had not been abandoned and that Russia will take it forward with New Delhi when the engine and other technologies sought by the country in the FGFA were ready for export.

The Su-57 features include six internal weapons hard-points to sharply reduce radar signature, top speed up to Mach 2, X-band Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar for situation awareness, L-band AESA radar for target identification, infra-red search and track (IRST) system to identify objects through their heat signature for targets beyond the radar's range.

Interesting - All the avionics being touted in the FGFA is present in today's frontline fighters, nothing earth shaking there.Key question still remains: How Stealthy really is this old wine in new bottle.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Postby Karan M » 23 Aug 2018 20:53

Vips,

"Interesting - All the avionics being touted in the FGFA is present in today's frontline fighters, nothing earth shaking there."

Not exactly. The Su-57 has cheek mounted X Band AESAs (other fighters don't but have gimballed AESAs which are better but with moving parts less reliable). The L-Band AESA if used for actual target identification (not merely IFF) can offer a useful addition to the X-Band AESA. It also (reportedly) has DIRCM and disposable, rapidly deployable active ECM canisters which are also a pretty de-novo capability.

"Key question still remains: How Stealthy really is this old wine in new bottle."

That unfortunately, remains a very valid question.


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