PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

[Manish_P]

Cross posted from Tejas thread:

For all the momeen concerned on the timelines:

https://twitter.com/UAC_Russia_eng/stat ... 87680?s=20

So definitely very good. Order more and get them faster.

^ With which engine?

[Aditya_V]

Back-and-forth on twitter between retired IAF pilots. I believe he is referring to Sqn Ldr Baldev Singh (retd). Posting the tweets in chronological order

Just one small question, is this Ret Air force pilot Vijender Thakur the same pilot Raghu Nambiar refers to as a Mig 25 pilot who flew a Mig 25 low and slow to get a high resolution picture of Batalik sector which made the Mantho Dhalo Air Raid possible?

[Rakesh]

No.

[Manish_Sharma]

Cross posted from Tejas thread:

^ With which engine?

Project 30 is still being developed so it must be 117S

[Cain Marko]

^ With which engine?

Project 30 is still being developed so it must be 117S

Probably. But even with the 117s, it is an absolute beast wrt TWR and achieves a climb rate of > 350m/s. Insane. I wonder what the climb rate will be with the izd30...

[naird]

Back-and-forth on twitter between retired IAF pilots. I believe he is referring to Sqn Ldr Baldev Singh (retd). Posting the tweets in chronological order

Just one small question, is this Ret Air force pilot Vijender Thakur the same pilot Raghu Nambiar refers to as a Mig 25 pilot who flew a Mig 25 low and slow to get a high resolution picture of Batalik sector which made the Mantho Dhalo Air Raid possible?

No thats Wg Cdr PK Thakur.

[gpurewal]

Just one small question, is this Ret Air force pilot Vijender Thakur the same pilot Raghu Nambiar refers to as a Mig 25 pilot who flew a Mig 25 low and slow to get a high resolution picture of Batalik sector which made the Mantho Dhalo Air Raid possible?

No thats Wg Cdr PK Thakur.

I think you mean PJ Thakur. When I searched for Wg Cdr PK Thakur, results regarding a retired IAF lady pilot came up. Could you PM me some information regarding the events for Batalik sector? I'm interested in that but, searching for that event only brings up a single sentence regarding Wg Cdr PJ Thakur being mentioned in dispatches.

[Cain Marko]

Production Unit #1 Looks nice

[Manish_Sharma]

TWITTER
Aviator Anil Chopra@Chopsyturvy

Su-57 applied for a patent in China and accidentally exposed the core parameters, which is 100 times worse than the J-20!

https://t.co/sjnI0CygF1

___________________
https://daydaynews.cc/en/military/amp/7 ... ssion=true


Su-57 applied for a patent in China and accidentally exposed the core parameters, which is 100 times worse than the J-20!

2020-08-20 19:08:06

Public documents show that Russian military industry applied for the Su-57 invention patent at the Chinese Intellectual Property Office on November 9, 2012. This patent includes th

Among the five generations of aircraft exposed around the world, the Su-57 has always been considered by the outside world to have no excellent invisibility at all, and it is even called the "Su-27 that beats the flat." This view obviously has serious prejudice. Since the Su-57 can be recognized as a fifth-generation machine by Russia, it has naturally achieved a breakthrough in stealth performance. Recently, a patent document applied by Aeroflot Group Joint Holdings Co., Ltd. to the China Intellectual Property Office was published online, accidentally exposing the radar reflection area of ​​the Su-57, thus solving the biggest mystery.

Public documents show that Russian military industry applied for the Su-57 invention patent at the Chinese Intellectual Property Office on November 9, 2012. This patent includes the fuselage of the Su-57 fighter jet, The main components such as the main wing, vertical tail, fully-moving horizontal tail, cockpit and engine air intake prove that the aircraft has fully considered the stealth requirements in the design of various details, and it is completely a qualified fifth-generation aircraft. Patent documents show that the radar reflection area (RCS value) of the Su-57 is approximately between 1 square meter and 0.1 square meter.

The international standard for stealth fighters is that the RCS value is less than 1 square meter, so it can be proved that the Su-57 is a fifth-generation fighter. However, the stealth level of the fifth-generation aircraft is also divided into grades. The stealth level of the Su-57 is obviously the worst among the four fifth-generation aircraft, and its forward radar reflection area is even at the same level as the J-10C. Domestic aviation experts have said that the radar reflection area of ​​the F-20 and F-22 is at the level of 0.01-0.001 square meters, while the F-35 radar reflection area is at the level of 0.1-0.01 square meters, the difference is 10 times. The data disclosed by the Su-57 this time proves that its stealth performance may be even worse than the F-35, and the gap with the J-20 is 100 times. The role of stealth performance in air combat is quite limited.

A Japanese magazine once used the APG-77 active phased array radar detection range equipped with F-22 as the standard and listed the discovery range of the world's top fighters. A fighter with a radar reflection area of ​​0.001 square meters has a detection distance of about 40 kilometers, while a target detection distance of 0.5 square meters is 185 kilometers, and 1 square meter is 241 kilometers. The radar reflection area of ​​the Su-57 square meter is 0.1-1 square meters, which means that it will be spotted by non-stealth fighters equipped with active phased array radar 200 kilometers away. This distance has exceeded the range of mainstream air-to-air missiles. very obvious. Some analysts believe that although the Su-57 has a built-in bomb bay, the logo of a stealth fighter, it has not used a dragon neck lens since its debut, which proves from another side that the aircraft is not a stealth fighter in the complete sense.

The stealth performance of Su-57 is obviously more than 100 times worse than that of J-20, so why apply for a patent in China? It is necessary to know that Cheng Fei's development of the J-20 naturally looks down on the Su-57's "advanced stealth technology", and Shen Fei's development of the FC-31 "Falcon Eagle" also proved that he will no longer imitate the Su-57. In fact, the Su-57, as the highest player in the Russian aviation industry, is a routine operation to apply for patents in many countries. It is to avoid other countries from using its unique invisible design. This is a relatively advanced act of intellectual property protection and worthy of China. Aviation company learning.

Since modern fighter jets are developed by the state at a cost, Chinese aviation companies often do not care much about protecting intellectual property rights. The J-20 is a fifth-generation aircraft completely independently developed by China. It is also the only fifth-generation aircraft in the world that uses canard wings + side strip wings + full-moving vertical tail. It won the National Patent Office Design Gold Award 6 years after its debut, proving the time to apply for a patent. It's also late.

Su-57's application for international patents in China means that no company can produce models and toys casually, let alone develop fighter jets similar to Su-57. Since Shen Fei’s future development direction is to develop a real stealth fighter (the fourth generation of the sea), the design concept of the Su-57 cannot be seen at all, so Russian aviation companies can rest assured. It is foreseeable that the final effect of this invention patent is to prevent the proliferation of Su-57 toys, which is really embarrassing.

[LakshmanPST]

^^^
OT... According to the article, the RCS of J20 is same as that of F22... Is it written by a Chinese guy...???

[Thakur_B]

^^ What an utter crap article.

[hnair]

The Chinese call luneberg lens as dragon-neck lens? Their dragon needs to get checked for goiter

[kit]

I think this is true reg Su57 " Patent documents show that the radar reflection area (RCS value) of the Su-57 is approximately between 1 square meter and 0.1 square meter." 0.5 had been quoted before in some articles. Well the IAF was not impressed anyway. For comparison a clean Rafale has an RCS of 0.5 and a full ext load F35 has an RCS of 0.3

https://aviatia.net/dassault-rafale-vs- ... htning-ii/

[Cain Marko]

The pakfa has better lo shaping than all 4 gen birds and the bigass j20 with it's canards. Esp. head on.. Sure it has worse rcs. Whatever.

[Manish_P]

Apologies if posted earlier

Approach sounds like TIE fighters from Star Wars..



And in focus

[Cain Marko]

^That damn whistling sound - scary as hell. Check it out @ :22 and 1:44
https://youtu.be/4Way5bhbpLU

We need to put similar sound whistles on some of our jets next to the border - regular brown shalwars in TSP.

[Aditya_V]

^That damn whistling sound - scary as hell. Check it out @ :22 and 1:44
https://youtu.be/4Way5bhbpLU

We need to put similar sound whistles on some of our jets next to the border - regular brown shalwars in TSP.

Modernized Ju-87 Stuka sound effect

[brar_w]

I think this is true reg Su57 " Patent documents show that the radar reflection area (RCS value) of the Su-57 is approximately between 1 square meter and 0.1 square meter." 0.5 had been quoted before in some articles. Well the IAF was not impressed anyway. For comparison a clean Rafale has an RCS of 0.5 and a full ext load F35 has an RCS of 0.3

https://aviatia.net/dassault-rafale-vs- ... htning-ii/

There is no reason to publish accurate or detailed RCS figures in the patent document. Likewise, whatever numbers were included can't be reliably used to gauge that impact either. Same applies for any similar data around the J-20 if it exists. The F-35 Rafale comparison link can likewise be ignored/discarded. Modern VLO has pivoted to a less lopsided ratio between shaping and materials compared to the first and second gen VLO designs (where shaping was a lot more dominant).Newer surface applications like Fiber-Mat are lighter, are structural and cover a significant portion of the relevant EM spectrum compared to applied coatings which were the main source of surface RCS enhancements with previous gen aircraft (even F-22A). Aviation Week covered this back in 2017 IIRC and pointed to Lockheed's CNT based materials (used on the F-35) being able to go down to 0.1 MHz. As such, unless additional details are revealed, and prior assumptions/models updated, there is not much folks can analyze using open source data.