Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

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Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 20 Jul 2014 17:13

Recently P. Soundara Rajan, Managing Director, Helicopter Complex, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited,
gave an interview to Force Magazine about helicopter production.

http://forceindia.net/FORCEINDIAOLDISSU ... view7.aspx
If you look at India today, the raw materials required for aerospace component manufacturing is just not available here. At the moment, the bulk of the raw materials either metallic or non metallic are imported from abroad. If you look at raw materials per se, 80 per cent of the Dhruv is imported, that is simply because the basic aircraft quality raw materials are not available here. The questions which then arise here are should these materials be sourced from India, moreover, when these materials are readily available abroad and the volumes do not justify setting up raw material manufacturing facilities in India.


The materials required for aerospace that are metallic

Titanium - ISRO produces titanium sponge

http://isrohq.vssc.gov.in/isr0dem0v5a/i ... ium-alloys

Aluminium and Aluminium Lithium alloys
http://www.almexusa.com/pdf/Almex%20Pre ... cle%29.pdf

Magnesium
http://www.hindustanmagnesium.com/solutions_aero.html

Non metallic

http://www.tamlindia.com/manufacturing.htm

Kevlar
http://www.hindoostantech.com/products/ ... anced.html
Kevlar is a type of aramid fiber.


Carbon Fiber
http://www.kemrock.com/carbon-fibre.php
http://www.hindoostantech.com/products/ ... brics.html


http://www.dhruvindustries.com/factory.htm

The imput materials used by Dhruv in its production processes are procured mainly from Toray and Honshu (Japan) and Hoechst (Germany). Toray industries has sanctioned India in the past, and these suppliers are unreliable.

http://www.forceindia.net/ComingofAgeJune2012.aspx

According to Forecast International, HAL is projected to become the third largest manufacturer of light military helicopters between 2011-2020, with Eurocopter being the largest and Agusta Westland, becoming the second largest.


The 3rd largest manufacturer of helicopters in the world isn't enough volume? HAL needs to be broken up into several companies specializing in different categories, and directed to produce 100% indigenous solutions. Bharat does produce all of the materials required, possibly not as cheaply as foreign sources, but preferable for being sanctions proof.A much stronger drive to source desi product from HAL is necessary. Anybody have any idea why HAL is so tardy?

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_28677 » 20 Jul 2014 20:00

^The question should goto Jaitley or Ministry of Defence. They are the decision makers in this aspect.

Whether HAL should make Raw-materials at home or import it cheaply from developed nations, is a decision taken by Babus(who love meddling into PSU affairs) and also Ministers(not even Graduates). PSU's in India are not allowed to make such crucial decisions(this is how India still works). HAL is not ISRO.

1. Actually this makes sense. Even profit making PSU's like ONGC are not free to make their own decisions on where to spend that profit. They need to ask Ministers/Babus where to spend it. Same rules apply to HAL.
Also, the CEO of HAL himself won't expose his neck by being over-ambitious because some CAG report tomorrow can send him to jail for any crazy "imaginary" loss.

2. Now imagine, if TATA suffered any loss will his CEO goto jail? No, he won't. At most, he will lose job, but won't face JAIL. But life of PSU managers is hell, any managerial mistake/loss they commit comes under IPC(Indian Penal Code). Now, will u work freely under a sword for ur nation?

Freedom from IPC(prosecution on loss occurring from financial/business decisions) is where Private players score over PSU's. PSU managers know everything, they are as smart as their private counterparts & far more experienced but grounded below sand due to Colonial laws.

Private Media often says - "There is no accountability in PSU management". Well, they are bluffing. There is too much accountability in PSUs! So much that it has killed all productivity which comes from freedom.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 21 Jul 2014 03:19

MahaKaal wrote:^The question should goto Jaitley or Ministry of Defence. They are the decision makers in this aspect.


The quote from the MD of HAL makes clear that HAL is the one refusing to indigenize and claiming there is no local source of supply for these materials. The reality is that all aerospace materials have a local supplier in Bharat. I listed all the materials, metallic and not metallic and linked to the actual supplier. HAL is the one responsible, not Jaitley or MoD.

MahaKaal wrote:Whether HAL should make Raw-materials at home or import it cheaply from developed nations, is a decision taken by Babus(who love meddling into PSU affairs) and also Ministers(not even Graduates). PSU's in India are not allowed to make such crucial decisions(this is how India still works). HAL is not ISRO.

Private Media often says - "There is no accountability in PSU management". Well, they are bluffing. There is too much accountability in PSUs! So much that it has killed all productivity which comes from freedom.


Neither Babu's nor Ministers are to blame. There is a clear Directive from the MoD and the local Babu to increase indigenous content of the product to 50%. HAL is defying written orders from the "evil Minister" and the "corrupt Babu".
HAL is refusing to be accountable for their failure. There is a huge failure of accountability in PSUs. The senior management of HAL should be fired. Competent management should be brought in who understand the concept of meeting targets and failure means job loss.

The CAG informed parliament in 2010

"As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50% (by 2008), 90% of the value of material used in each ALH is still imported from foreign suppliers," says the latest CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Thursday.

"Even though ALH has been in production for 10 years, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has not been able to identify alternative indigenous suppliers," said CAG, which conducted a "performance audit" on the ALH project being run by the defence PSU.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... eferral=PM

My very first post identified indigenous suppliers, that HAL could not find in 10 years. I did a Google Search. This should tell you everything you need to know about HAL. This failure of HAL has directly impacted the Dhruv. Toray industries sanctioned Bharat for 18 months. HAL"s failure led to delays and cost increases for every Indian taxpayer. We can't afford PSU bungling any more.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_28677 » 21 Jul 2014 18:12

Rien wrote: The quote from the MD of HAL makes clear that HAL is the one refusing to indigenize and claiming there is no local source of supply for these materials. The reality is that all aerospace materials have a local supplier in Bharat. I listed all the materials, metallic and not metallic and linked to the actual supplier. HAL is the one responsible, not Jaitley or MoD.


HAL is an component maker & assembler. It is not 'Material producer' like SAIL or TATA sponge. So, its wrong to blame HAL for lack of Material research within India. The blame directly goes to babus(Ministry) who know all this very well and they are happy with HAL importing raw material from outside. You are acting naive on purpose & ignoring facts, just to score your point.

Rien wrote: Neither Babu's nor Ministers are to blame. There is a clear Directive from the MoD and the local Babu to increase indigenous content of the product to 50%. HAL is defying written orders from the "evil Minister" and the "corrupt Babu".
HAL is refusing to be accountable for their failure. There is a huge failure of accountability in PSUs. The senior management of HAL should be fired. Competent management should be brought in who understand the concept of meeting targets and failure means job loss.

The CAG informed parliament in 2010
"As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50% (by 2008), 90% of the value of material used in each ALH is still imported from foreign suppliers," says the latest CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Thursday.
"Even though ALH has been in production for 10 years, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has not been able to identify alternative indigenous suppliers," said CAG, which conducted a "performance audit" on the ALH project being run by the defence PSU.


CAG is simply a reporting agency. They report what they see, that's all. They don't 'infer' anything. They are not expert on aerospace technology or domain decisions. Everyone in Ministry knew very well since beginning that HAL is importing Raw-Materials from foreign nations and they themselves approved the custom clearance(do you really think HAL smuggling this Raw-material into India without clearance from Babus and Babus+Minister didn't approve this? :rotfl: ) Babus are fully aware of it and they are happy to maintain their own Cash-flow in the import-deals, at the cost of not funding SAIL or local units to develop that material within India.

So, the blame goes to Babus & Ministers who know everything but act naive, as if they knew nothing since 10 years. All these article bashing HAL & DRDO are planted in media by ministers & babus themselves, to make public confused so noone see the real foxes. In India, babus have deep links inside Media. Check Sanjay Baru's interview with madhu trehan for some great examples. Ofcourse, the HAL/DRDO officials can't "speak" because there is mighty OSA to kill them. (There is no reason other than this - PSU work great in Russia but fails in India because of "Corruption" at ministry level. Make HAL free like ISRO and then see. Do u want to bet? They won't because it will kill their bribes. )

Rien wrote: My very first post identified indigenous suppliers, that HAL could not find in 10 years. I did a Google Search. This should tell you everything you need to know about HAL. This failure of HAL has directly impacted the Dhruv. Toray industries sanctioned Bharat for 18 months. HAL"s failure led to delays and cost increases for every Indian taxpayer. We can't afford PSU bungling any more.


Lets put TATA/Mahindra's units under Ministry of Defence and put Babus on their boards. All so-called productivity will goto gutter. TATA/Mahindra units won't be able to fund a simple 100 Crore project without approval of Babus(maai-baap). :roll:

Conclusion: Problem is not HAL. Problem is people who are sitting above them(babus, politicians).
Also, the HAL/DRDO guys don't plant stories inside media, they don't have such deep links. That's the reason their image is worst in India. Ever wonder why Babus in Defence ministry are never named in media for corruption? Becoz they are the ones who hold media guys by neck.
Same is true for Armed forces. Top IAF/IA guys won't dare speak up against their senior babus because one media story(with grace from a Babu) can kill their career.

Note: I have no animosity towards TATA or private players. But i don't need tobe anti-PSU in order to justify my love for private players. A wrong is wrong. It is wrong to blame PSU's for no fault of theirs, just to score a point for private players. We can be pro-PSU and pro-private at the same time, where is the harm?
PSU's are not bad, they have wonderfully served the purpose. Yes, they could have done 10 times better if their management had autonomy like Nuclear/Space boards. They should be under PMO, not ministries. Companies run good when they have CEO type "One-Man" leadership structure at top, with full 'planning+execution' powers in hands of company board itself. CEO(PM) only intervenes twice/thrice a year to check/approve new goals in 1 shot.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_20292 » 21 Jul 2014 23:13

IB4TL

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2014 00:06

MahaKaal, Stop trolling. Will get banned if you persist.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2014 00:09

Rien, The Titanium sponge from ISRO is it double or triple vaccum arc melted?

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 22 Jul 2014 04:46

ramana wrote:Rien, The Titanium sponge from ISRO is it double or triple vaccum arc melted?


I would say that's the wrong question. There are existing standards for Titanium alloy in aerospace applications.
Page 15 shows the level of impurities in titanium sponge produced are excellent. These are pretty good numbers.

http://www.publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs ... /5966/3094

Pay attention to the nitrogen figure, because that's what matters for aerospace. I can also offer empirical proof. ISRO is purchasing this sponge to make satellites and rockets. So it's good enough. Space alloys are of higher standard and have to meet > difficult conditions compared to standard aerospace alloys.

Even if the process used to be single vacuum arc melted, it's enough to meet specifications. I'm doubtful that triple vacuum arc melting technology is needed. The US produces titanium without using triple arc technology, why do you need some gold plated technology?

Bog standard electrolysis can produce higher purity titanium if needed. DRDO uses Combined Process Technology and is strictly superior to triple vacuum arc tech. You're talking about how to breed the fastest horse when Bharat is already driving an electric supercar.

Newer paper on current production process

http://drdo.res.in:8080/alpha/drdo/pub/ ... h.htm#Prod

Does Bharat use the most modern production process for Titanium? YES IT DOES! :D
It's combining two separate processes in one step, cutting costs.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 22 Jul 2014 13:20

ramana wrote:Rien, The Titanium sponge from ISRO is it double or triple vaccum arc melted?


http://www.academia.edu/5833872/Materia ... erspective


MIDHANI produces a number of specialty steels, stainless steels, maraging steels, titanium and its alloys and nickel, cobalt and iron based superalloys. Primary melting of ferrous alloys are carried out in Electric Arc Furnace or Air Induction Furnace or Vacuum Induction Refining Furnace or Vacuum Induction Melting Furnace depending upon the specification requirements. The secondary melting is carried out in either Vacuum Arc Remelting (VAR) or Electro Slag Remelting (ESR). However, titanium and its alloys are manufactured by compacting the sponge and alloy additions. The compacts are welded to give a single unit called electrodes, which are then remelted in Vacuum Arc Remelting Furnace. Higher purity titanium alloys are manufactured by repeated remelting in VAR. These are then known as double or triple melted grades. Nickel, cobalt and iron base superalloys are generally melted in Vacuum Induction Melting furnace using virgin raw materials and remelted either in Vacuum Arc Refining or Electro Slag Remelting Furnace


Indians 100% have the technology. And they use it to produce titanium alloys. The tech is there from A-Z.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby deejay » 22 Jul 2014 14:54

@Rien: This thread is interesting. I have a suggestion:

> The thread should also include material sourcing for the Naval Ship building and should not be restricted to Aerospace, because similar metal sourcing is required there.

But I will leave that to those who understand Metals better.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 22 Jul 2014 16:25

deejay wrote:@Rien: This thread is interesting. I have a suggestion:

> The thread should also include material sourcing for the Naval Ship building and should not be restricted to Aerospace, because similar metal sourcing is required there.

But I will leave that to those who understand Metals better.


You're right, there are many applications besides aerospace for materials. The big news recently is that an alternative to Russian AB Steel for navy ship building has been produced at SAIL.

Till now, India has been primarily using Russian-made AB Steel for naval shipbuilding. With India aiming to turn into a ‘Builders Navy’ from a ‘Buyers Navy’, the country can’t rely solely on imports to build ships, that too for something like steel which is required in bulk.

This quality of steel was first developed in ingot form at the Heavy Engineering Corporation in Ranchi as per specifications of the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory. At Durgapur, the steel was cast into plates. The aim had been to build steel that is of superior quality to what India has been importing.


http://durgapuradda.com/all-news/durgap ... gapur.html

The major application of titanium in the domain the navy would be for deep diving submersibles. The Russians have restarted their use of titanium for submarines

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20130305 ... rines.html

The Russian Navy will refit, modernize and recommission two Sierra class (Project 945) titanium-hull nuclear-powered attack submarines by 2017, the Zvezdochka shipyard said on Tuesday.

The Sierra class has a light and strong titanium pressure hull, enabling these boats to dive to depths of up to 550 meters (1800 feet) and enhancing their survivability, as well as having a low magnetic signature.


Bharat has huge reserves of titanium. This is an unique competitive advantage for the sequel to Arihant. A titanium sub can dive deeper and doesn't have a magnetic signature. This is stealth the likes of which even the most expensive US subs cannot match .

Aluminium is also interesting.

For example, during the past century since 1910 the maximum weight of vessels increased more than twice: from 46,000 t (‘Titanic’) to 109,000 (‘Golden Princess’). The weight factor is very important in shipbuilding, because finally it determines the vessel speed and the transported payload weight. And the faster the vessels and the more weight they carry, the faster the return of investments in construction and the more profits received by ship owners. This was what motivated the studying of aluminium and its capabilities. It is known that using the ‘light metal’ allows reducing the ship weight by over 50%.

http://www.aluminiumleader.com/en/around/transport/ship

Can someone post any links that confirm whether Bharat can produce all of the relevant useful alloys of Aluminium for this task? Also, would people who know a lot more about other metals post? I don't know the entire periodic table.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_28640 » 23 Jul 2014 13:42

And what do you do when HAL-NAL-CSIR itself has a Carbon Fiber Manufacturing plant under it..
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/i ... nt/616481/
Also please note that
He said Kemrock plans to supply 1,500 tonnes of carbon fibre to the strategic sectors over the next four years.


Smells rotten..

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 23 Jul 2014 16:24

GopiN wrote:And what do you do when HAL-NAL-CSIR itself has a Carbon Fiber Manufacturing plant under it..
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/i ... nt/616481/
Also please note that
He said Kemrock plans to supply 1,500 tonnes of carbon fibre to the strategic sectors over the next four years.


Smells rotten..


I know for a fact that HAL imports Carbon Fiber from Toray Industries in Japan. This is from HAL's website. You've just confirmed that carbon fiber is available in India. What the hell???? Why is HAL importing from Japan that has already sanctioned us multiple times in the past. We can't afford another delay or massive financial overruns like in the past. HAL needs to start sourcing this Kemrock carbon fiber instead of the Japanese stuff.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 23 Jul 2014 18:13

Marten wrote:"Sanctioned us in the past"? Sanctions continue - almost ALL entities from the DRDO fold and some from the DPSU fold that Japanese cos are prohibited to deal with!
(As in, they cannot sell them even consumer materials such as deskphones or monitors or projectors, or laptops! Ask Toshiba, for instance.)


Most BRF posters don't know that

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2010_12/Obama_India

After the removal of these organizations from the entity list, trade with them in sensitive technologies will continue to be subject to normal U.S. export licensing procedures. Furthermore, three Indian Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) entities remain on the list, and there has been no announcement about removing them. These include the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, one of India’s most important facilities for nuclear research and development. The DAE is primarily responsible for India’s nuclear energy industry and nuclear weapons arsenal.


Bharat is on many export control lists. This is explicitly contrary to what the US government, has stated.Most "dual use" items, including mundane items such as pens and screwdrivers are off limits. One of the reasons for this thread was to show that in fact there is *NO* need to import foreign sources of even the most high tech materials.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2014 19:19

Rien, The Kemrock and Toray fabric might have different specs and applications. Until we know more cant say for sure. HAL imports the fibre for LCA use. Where does the fabric get the resin coating? In Kemrock?

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2014 21:26

Rien wrote:
Marten wrote:"Sanctioned us in the past"? Sanctions continue - almost ALL entities from the DRDO fold and some from the DPSU fold that Japanese cos are prohibited to deal with!
(As in, they cannot sell them even consumer materials such as deskphones or monitors or projectors, or laptops! Ask Toshiba, for instance.)


Most BRF posters don't know that

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2010_12/Obama_India

After the removal of these organizations from the entity list, trade with them in sensitive technologies will continue to be subject to normal U.S. export licensing procedures. Furthermore, three Indian Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) entities remain on the list, and there has been no announcement about removing them. These include the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, one of India’s most important facilities for nuclear research and development. The DAE is primarily responsible for India’s nuclear energy industry and nuclear weapons arsenal.


Bharat is on many export control lists. This is explicitly contrary to what the US government, has stated.Most "dual use" items, including mundane items such as pens and screwdrivers are off limits. One of the reasons for this thread was to show that in fact there is *NO* need to import foreign sources of even the most high tech materials.


That article is from Dec, 2010 !!!!!!!

The rules have changed, Of course it does not mean that all the players play by the rules.

And, if people are not aware, India itself has become a major exporter of sensitive items:

Export Controls and India

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 24 Jul 2014 09:20

ramana wrote:Rien, The Kemrock and Toray fabric might have different specs and applications. Until we know more cant say for sure. HAL imports the fibre for LCA use. Where does the fabric get the resin coating? In Kemrock?


The fiber that Kemrock produces was used in the LCA prototypes. All of the current flying bunch. Kemrock does the resin infusion.

http://www.kemrock.com/engineering-fabrication.php

http://www.aame.in/2012/12/use-of-compo ... craft.html
Judged by their use of composites, India's indigenous programs - ADA's LCA Tejas & NAL's SARAS, shares the podium with the very best in the industry. 45% of the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas' body is made using composites, while the NAL would eventually be building 35% of the SARS' body with these. In India, CSIR 8 has had a traditional upper hand in this domain. A myriad of laboratories it oversees have been working on polymers, in general, & composite solids, in particular, for a significant time, with a large number of patented technology & materials in its portfolio. Recent work include efforts to blend in metal with composite3 to produce materials known as Fibre Metal Laminates [FML], possessing better properties. Not surprisingly, CSIR-run NAL's Advanced Composites Division is one of the best in the country. The institute has working relationships with companies like General Electric [G.E], Israel Aircraft Industries [I.A.I], Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz, amongst many others for work in the area of composites. A simple, yet fair indicator of NAL's prowess in composites can be judged from the fact that this CSIR lab was the lead organisation in the CFC wing team to design, develop, fabricate & test the composite wing of the LCA-Tejas, despite the aircraft being a DRDO project. Technology for making the Carbon fibre polymer matrix composites has, subsequently, been transferred to the Gujarat-based Kemrock Industries & Exports Limited [KIEL], for mass production to meet the needs of Indian programmes, and export the surplus. As part of the technology denial regime, sale of carbon fibre technology to India was/is an "international crime". So India developed means to make its own.


It's also good enough for Israel.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/i ... a/319126/2

It is also not permissible to import Toray Fiber under any circumstances. Toray banned exports of carbon fiber to Hal for over a year!

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/xLWuB ... o-HAL.html

It is the GoI policy, laid down the from the NDA government, and also policy under this Government, to achieve 50% indigenization. HAL must provide a written response outlining these reasons. HAL claims there is no Indian carbon fiber period!

If it's good enough for Israel and good enough to build Tejas prototypes, it's more than good enough for HAL. HAL's claim has been disproved. Your claim is not relevant to anything. It's a tangent, claiming quality isn't good enough, without defining why. What magic fiber does Toray industries make? Also, a helicopter is low level aerospace application. Jets have much tougher constraints. Helicopters fly slow, they have low material constraints.

KemRock Manufacturing Process

http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/kemrock.pdf

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 24 Jul 2014 12:52

NRao wrote:That article is from Dec, 2010 !!!!!!!

The rules have changed, Of course it does not mean that all the players play by the rules.

And, if people are not aware, India itself has become a major exporter of sensitive items:

Export Controls and India


I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with anything? The issue at hand here is Sanctions against Bharat. Your example of India's export regulations is a complete non sequitur. And, what rules have changed? DAE is still sanctioned. Even the most basic of items is controlled and requires a waiver from an US exporter. No one would dare take a chance of jail time or heavy fines.

The EAR has classified countries into groups (A, B, D and E) for licence exception purposes. Group A includes countries that are members of the multilateral export control regimes. Group B countries are those that can be generally termed as “friendly” to the U.S. and to whom the exports are less restricted. Group D includes “countries of concern” and Group E includes “terrorist supporting” countries. Thus a country can figure in A and B (for example, Japan and Poland) or B and D (for example, India and Pakistan) or in A and D (for example, Russia and Ukraine). Since India figures both in B and D, it can be upgraded only by moving it into Group A. This can happen only if India becomes a multilateral export control regime member. This can only happen if the regimes alter their membership criteria in India's favour (perhaps with U.S. help, as assured in the joint statement) and India takes measures to harmonise its export control system with the multilateral regimes. Given that this is unlikely to happen in the short term, the possibility of realignment is also likely to be distant.


http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/p ... prd=fline&

Cryogenic sanctions that the US has maintained today, tomorrow and forever!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bharath-g ... 01852.html

The reality is that Bharat has been sanctioned very heavily in the past, is under sanctions today, and will be sanctioned again tomorrow. It's long past time for a mitigation strategy. The strategy starts by cutting out any Western suppliers of aerospace materials. If the Tejas and the Dhruv hadn't relied on foreign carbon fiber exports by Toray Industries, then both programs would have finished 2 years earlier!

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_28677 » 24 Jul 2014 17:45

NRao wrote:
Bharat is on many export control lists. This is explicitly contrary to what the US government, has stated.Most "dual use" items, including mundane items such as pens and screwdrivers are off limits.

That article is from Dec, 2010 !!!!!!!
The rules have changed, Of course it does not mean that all the players play by the rules.


This is an agreement, SDRE Indians have to "sign" before becoming a distributor/reseller/retailer of any DELL products in India:
http://partnerdirect.dell.com/sites/cha ... .aspx?c=IN

On that page, Press control+F and type "BARC". Or, read paragraph numbered "20". If you as a DELL product vendor, sold anything to BARC, IGCAR, Indian Rare-Earths Limited, then you are legally bound to be prosecuted even in India. The wonderful thing is, our slave-minded Babus still bow to such companies. Lenovo alone is enough to serve Indian needs, Dell can be banned. Instead, we invite Rafale to setup branches in India, instead of funding long-term, Semi-Fabs research on big scale like China is doing. Oh well, after funding French company's factory in India, where will be money left for anything else?

One question for FDI in Defence supporters - China has 4 times more money than India. Europe/American companies won't say "No" if China opened up FDI in Defence sector.
Then why China is not doing it, despite having money?
Why Russia didn't rely on German or French suppliers(which were good alternative to USA)?

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_28640 » 24 Jul 2014 18:33

Rien wrote:If it's good enough for Israel and good enough to build Tejas prototypes, it's more than good enough for HAL. HAL's claim has been disproved. Your claim is not relevant to anything. It's a tangent, claiming quality isn't good enough, without defining why. What magic fiber does Toray industries make? Also, a helicopter is low level aerospace application. Jets have much tougher constraints. Helicopters fly slow, they have low material constraints.

As far as carbon-fiber is concerned the grades o not matter much.
http://calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/gra ... bon-fiber/
There is a lot of marketing techno-babble out there with all the different companies getting on the carbon bandwagon. The idea is to try and convince the general public that they are using something special by using technical terms that have little pertinent meaning. The real differences are fairly simple.
Almost all carbon fiber is made from a common industrial fiber called polyacrylanitrile fiber, also known as PAN. Most PAN fiber is used to make acrylic fiber. It is also used to make carbon fiber with a pyrolizing process, which means it is heated to ultra high temperatures to remove all elements except the carbon. Most carbon fiber is sold at this point and it has a tensile modulus of 33 million pounds per square inch (MSI). (Tensile modulus is a measurement of stiffness.) This 33 MSI fiber, if seen up close, looks like a a redwood tree trunk, with deep fissured bark. If processed further, the “bark” is stripped off, leaving a smoother round fiber that is smaller in diameter. More of these fibers can be packed into a smaller space, making it have a higher stiffness per cross sectional area. 42 MSI fiber is the result and it is informally known as Intermediate Modulus fiber or IM fiber. The benefit is that you can use less material to get the same stiffness and therefore a lighter structure.
Further processing can yield even higher stiffness fibers by making the fibers smaller and a little denser. These are fairly expensive, brittle and used sparingly. They are known as High Modulus fiber and are in the range of 55 MSI and higher. Many companies refer to 33 and 42 MSI fiber as “High Modulus” because they can’t get sued for false advertising by using this informal term. To understand the real grade of carbon fiber one needs to know the modulus of the fiber.
Fibers are bundled in various sizes designated in thousands (K) of fibers. 1K, 3K, 6K, 12K, 24K, 50K and others are common bundle sizes. These fibers are woven into fabric with various weave patterns. 3K fabric is most common. The various types of fiber will have the same “K” designation to indicate the number of fibers in the bundle. These numbers describe the size of the bundle used and have little to do with the quality of the fiber itself.
Carbon fiber is often sold pre-impregnated with epoxy and therefore is called “pre-preg”. Fabric can be pre-pregged but most pre-preg is unidirectional, meaning it has been spread out onto backing paper. It can be spread out in various thicknesses which is indicated with a GSM number which is simply Grams per Square Meter. This is very similar to how fiberglass is described using ounces, as in 12 oz. cloth, which weighs 12 oz. per square yard. Two layers of 6 oz. cloth are equal to one layer of 12 oz. cloth. The same is true for the various weights of carbon pre-preg. Again, these numbers do not have anything to do with the grade of fiber being used.
Of course there is more detail to describing carbon fiber, but the above describes the most important aspects.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby NRao » 24 Jul 2014 19:39

MahaKaal wrote:This is an agreement, SDRE Indians have to "sign" before becoming a distributor/reseller/retailer of any DELL products in India:
http://partnerdirect.dell.com/sites/cha ... .aspx?c=IN

On that page, Press control+F and type "BARC". Or, read paragraph numbered "20". If you as a DELL product vendor, sold anything to BARC, IGCAR, Indian Rare-Earths Limited, then you are legally bound to be prosecuted even in India. The wonderful thing is, our slave-minded Babus still bow to such companies. Lenovo alone is enough to serve Indian needs, Dell can be banned. Instead, we invite Rafale to setup branches in India, instead of funding long-term, Semi-Fabs research on big scale like China is doing. Oh well, after funding French company's factory in India, where will be money left for anything else?

One question for FDI in Defence supporters - China has 4 times more money than India. Europe/American companies won't say "No" if China opened up FDI in Defence sector.
Then why China is not doing it, despite having money?
Why Russia didn't rely on German or French suppliers(which were good alternative to USA)?


Aware of all that. To continue with that game, #20 also has an "out":

Channel Partner also agrees that the products are not to be sold
to the following entities within
India who are under the restricted list without relevant US license
-


This is nothing new, has been happening since decades.

On the flip side Indian scientists (from BARC, etc) have visited Israel when India had no diplomatic relations with that nation. Guess which country such scientists used to get to Israel.

When things have to happen, they happen and no one gets into any kind of trouble. On the flip side one can follow every rule there is and still get into trouble. I tend to file such things under "Karma" - convenient.

I have not followed this topic for some time now, but keep hearing - on the ground - that India is not restricted, BUT, that there are - on both sides - sufficient "babus" that are reluctant to move. To a scientist the reason for this does not matter - s/he just wants the product to continue their work. But, at a political level the issues have been resolved - it has taken a dive in the past few months due to the diplomatic incident in the US. But let us see what happens after Modi's visit in Sept.

Of course, vendors have their own games.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Karan M » 24 Jul 2014 22:50

http://agmetalminer.com/2014/07/22/the- ... re-earths/
The Real Reason Behind India’s Titanium Push? Rare Earths

by Sohrab Darabshaw on July 22, 2014

Indian Rare Earths Limited operates under India’s Department of Atomic Energy. When complete, the new $82 million titanium plant joint venture with India’s NALCO (National Aluminum Company) will make 100,000 tons (1 lakh ton) of titanium slag in the eastern state of Odisha. Some of it will also be used to make pig-iron. A feasibility study and technology selection on the project will soon be carried out.

Incidentally, the MoU for formation of the joint-venture was signed between the two state-owned entities about three years ago but was revalidated last week. No explanation was forthcoming for the delay.

IREL has four plants that extract rare earths from India’s coast line. One of them called OSCOM currently produces 2,20,000 ton (2.20 lakh) Ilmenite per annum, most of which is exported to other countries.

India is part of the handful of nations around the world that makes titanium sponge. In April last year, as reported by MetalMiner, India had taken another step in the production of titanium sponge when the well-known public sector steel producer, the Steel Authority of India Limited (SAIL), signed an agreement with the Kerala State Industrial Development Corp (KSIDC) and Kerala Minerals and Metals Ltd (KMML) to jointly set up an approximate $458 million plant to produce titanium sponge and metals.

For many years, ISRO was dependent on other nations for its titanium sponge needs, but it will be able to source titanium sponge from this new plant, one of the few in the world being put up by KMML. India will be the seventh country in the world to have the technology to make titanium sponge.

According to this report in Forbes, the breakthrough was a result of pooling of resources among state-run organizations and companies. The technology was developed by Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, a laboratory under India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation, or DRDO.

India has vast reserves of Titanium ore because of its vast coast line, and India has been trying to be self-sufficient in this crucial material.

World production of the ore is about 150,000-200,000 tons, and China dominates the production and use of titanium. Nine out of 18 companies making titanium sponge are Chinese. The KMML plant will help India get parity in strategic affairs.


Like Ilmenite, there are other heavy minerals found on the beach sand in the Indian States of Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh and Orissa such as zircon, rutile, garnet and sillimanite. India has 360 million tons of Ilmenite reserves, or 18 percent of global deposits. Outside of the state-owned producers, there are some private players, too, involved in the extraction of these strategically important minerals.

The author, Sohrab Darabshaw, contributes an Indian perspective on industrial metals markets to MetalMiner.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 25 Jul 2014 08:05

NRao wrote:Aware of all that. To continue with that game, #20 also has an "out":


Prove it. Where is the out? I'd like to see it. I've read the document. I know for a fact that the rule is "Know your customer". Dell will never cooperate with any Indian firm, or even allow themselves to be put in a *potentially* compromising situation. The answer is to assemble your own components from SE Asia or Lenovo.

NRao wrote:I have not followed this topic for some time now, but keep hearing - on the ground - that India is not restricted, BUT, that there are - on both sides - sufficient "babus" that are reluctant to move. To a scientist the reason for this does not matter - s/he just wants the product to continue their work. But, at a political level the issues have been resolved - it has taken a dive in the past few months due to the diplomatic incident in the US. But let us see what happens after Modi's visit in Sept.

Of course, vendors have their own games.


You've just admitted to your ignorance. You've heard it multiple times on this thread from different posters that Sanctions are ON. They have never stopped and will never stop. This is reality.The only question is not some philosophical debate about whether sanctions exist. But instead, how do we deal with them? This thread is the beginning of the answer. Stop importing from companies that sanctioned Bharat in the past. That means Toray Industries and Dell. Also all US and Japanese origin companies must be blacklisted in India. Exceptions must be on a case by case basis.

Switch to Desi sources. And a repeat of the sorry LCA/Dhruv saga can never happen again.
Last edited by Rien on 25 Jul 2014 10:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby NRao » 25 Jul 2014 08:21

Prove it. Where is the out? I'd like to see it.


Right there is that very doc that person posted!!!

What is so difficult?

If you are looking for examples go find them.

You've heard it multiple times on this thread from different posters that Sanctions are ON. They have never stopped and will never stop. This is reality.


The example I gave of Indian scientists visiting Israel is one that *I know*. With all due respects to all those who post otherwise.

And, that is not the only example.



There are rules and there are rules.

Ignorant are those that read rules and never either dig into them nor get involved in any way.

But, if you think I am ignorant, so be it. NP.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby NRao » 25 Jul 2014 08:27

Switch to Desi sources


++1.

Always said, Indians run Google, now a Indian Google should run India.

I agree, I just do not see why India should be so reliant on foreigners. But, that is the way it is. For the past 15 years on BR too.



May be this is more for the FDI thread, but, I really see India not being able to keep up. Assuming India wants the latest and greatest, the gap is growing too fast for India to keep up. IMHO.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 25 Jul 2014 10:39

NRao wrote:May be this is more for the FDI thread, but, I really see India not being able to keep up. Assuming India wants the latest and greatest, the gap is growing too fast for India to keep up. IMHO.


Actually the opposite. Bharat has closed the gap on Titanium sponge, magnesium, carbon fiber and all other aerospace materials. Complete independence from Western sources is a reality today, if we levy an import tax.

From page 8

Titanium bearing ilmenite deposits are estimated at around 375 – 400 Mt i.e. 21% of global deposits approx.
Installed capacity only 1% approx. of the total world’s capacity
Demand of around 150,000 t/yr of Titanium dioxide – Imports about 70% of it


http://www.iim-delhi.com/upload_events/ ... a_SAIL.pdf

GoI needs to start levying a punitive tax on imports of Titanium from sanction prone nations. We now have a domestic source. I also thought I should mention that there is research on a more efficient method of producing titanium via molten salts.

Video of Cambridge FFC process
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97dfa1GoF7w
Indian equivalent
http://eprints.nmlindia.org/2508/1/121.pdf

ISRO, Madhani and even SAIL have done a great job on Titanium. There is no excuse for imports. The demand for 150 000 t/year of Titanium should be met by desi sources only. All metallic alloys have a standard defined for them. So we can be 100% certain that the Indian alloys are equal with the best in the world. In fact, because Bharat is using more modern processes it's actually superior to the grades available in the US. Bharat has a huge competitive advantage over Western nations in regards to mineral resources of all kinds.

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Aerospace materials - Aluminium!

Postby Rien » 25 Jul 2014 11:01

Along with KaranM's happy post on the level of titanium production, here is a report on Bharat's Aluminium production.

India with its abundant supply of quality bauxite and low cost labour has established itself as a low cost producer of primary aluminium. Global primary aluminium production in 2012 was 45.2 million tonnes, with China accounting for an astounding 19.8 million tonnes or 44%. However, in India, the production of primary aluminium has stagnated around the 1.6 to 1.7 million tonne mark for the last three years. The three primary aluminium producers, viz. Hindalco, Vedanta and Nalco have expansion plans as well as greenfield projects that should take the production to 2.5 to 3.0 million tonnes in the foreseeable future.


We have handled various special aerospace grade raw materials such as Aluminium alloys (2014, 24345,7075, 7175, AU2G, HE15, HF15, B51SWP), <snip>The form of the raw materials being in Rods, Bars, Flats, Tubular sections, Castings, Forgings.

Our esteemed clients include Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) & Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO). We are interested in Indigenisation & Import Substitution programmes, Defence off-sets, Long-Term tie-ups, entering into MOU & Joint Venture programs.

http://blog.alcircle.com/2013/09/03/the ... ef-review/



http://toolingworld.com/raghav-aerospac ... -limited-0

From raw ore to processed final alloy form, Bharat has it all. The Aluminium story is very good :D.

Hindalco-Almex is Boeing certified. The state-of–the-art facility is designed to manufacture aluminum
billet for aerospace, defense, and other specialized applications.


http://www.almexusa.com/pdf/Almex%20Pre ... cle%29.pdf

Steel was already know to be a very good story. So three metals down so far

1.Steel
2.Aluminium
3.Titanium

Well, the Aluminium may be good enough for a small two bit operation like Boeing, but is HAL going to use Indian aluminium?
Last edited by Rien on 25 Jul 2014 11:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_26622 » 25 Jul 2014 11:10

Is their a metal to end

- Corruption (aka wifey needs Prada+Europe vacation)
- Stupidity
- Plain old lazy to even google for desi alternatives?

Pardon my sarcasm but this is kind of stuff should result in folks been fired (literally using bullets is okay too)

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 25 Jul 2014 11:38

Copper
Hindalco is a leading copper manufacturer in India. The company has an integrated facility at Dahej in Gujarat, which holds the unique distinction of being the largest copper smelter at a single location in the world.

Hindalco produces copper cathodes and continuous cast copper rods. The copper cathodes are available under the brand names - Birla Copper and Birla Copper II. Birla Copper cathodes with 99.99 per cent copper purity level


http://adityabirla.com/Businesses/Profile/birla-copper

Copper industry in general
India has become a net exporter of copper after being a net importer during the last decade, even as the country is not a major producer of copper ore, but produces the refined forms of copper. About a decade ago, the Indian copper industry consisted of a single state-owned company and now the copper industry in India takes up about 3% of the global market for copper.

http://www.researchandmarkets.com/repor ... r_industry

Indian industry has become a good supplier of metals on a worldwide scale. Metals have defined standards of purity and even alloys have well known names and specified impurities. So it's no surprise that Bharat has equalled the world standards and most basic materials are present here.

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Nickel

Postby Rien » 25 Jul 2014 11:48

Bad news. Nickel is entirely imported and there are no domestic sources. But the good news is there are many nickel producers. The only important issue is to blacklist any Western/Western aligned nations. So that means Philippines, Canada, and Australia are out. Even if something important must be imported because there is no domestic producer, it doesn't mean you can't source a reliable supplier. Cuba, Russia and South Africa are all in this category. None of these nations will sanction Bharat for any future nuclear tests.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2646 ... y-country/

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby KrishnaK » 26 Jul 2014 02:02

MahaKaal wrote:One question for FDI in Defence supporters - China has 4 times more money than India. Europe/American companies won't say "No" if China opened up FDI in Defence sector.
Wrong, there's a ban on sale of weapons systems to China, let alone developing weapons systems there. The chinese would love to get their hands on western weapons systems.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby KrishnaK » 26 Jul 2014 02:06

Rien wrote: Also all US and Japanese origin companies must be blacklisted in India. Exceptions must be on a case by case basis.
You do understand how stupid that statement is right ? What happens if the US blacklists TCS and Infosys ?

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 26 Jul 2014 19:26

KrishnaK wrote:
Rien wrote: Also all US and Japanese origin companies must be blacklisted in India. Exceptions must be on a case by case basis.
You do understand how stupid that statement is right ? What happens if the US blacklists TCS and Infosys ?


You can't bid on most US government contracts or be a supplier in defense products. This is par for the course in the majority of nations. The US will not import titanium or carbon fiber for aerospace products. All nations follow these kinds of policies. Free trade is not an ideal followed in any country.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/ ... ia-527136/

Ohio has already blacklisted all Indian outsourcing companies in 2010, not merely TCS and Infosys. This is already war, and Bharat didn't fire the first shot.The only way through is to blacklist US firms until the US government sees sanity. That is obviously something only our grand kids will see, and no concern for us.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby NRao » 26 Jul 2014 21:43

Rien wrote:You can't bid on most US government contracts or be a supplier in defense products. This is par for the course in the majority of nations. The US will not import titanium or carbon fiber for aerospace products. All nations follow these kinds of policies. Free trade is not an ideal followed in any country.


*Not* true.

There are plenty of Indian companies that "supply" to the US DefDept (and actually a lot in the ME). As long as such entities are "cleared" it is fine.

Also, as recently as Jan, 2014: Exclusive: U.S. waived laws to keep F-35 on track with China-made parts

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/ ... ia-527136/

Ohio has already blacklisted all Indian outsourcing companies in 2010, not merely TCS and Infosys. This is already war, and Bharat didn't fire the first shot.The only way through is to blacklist US firms until the US government sees sanity. That is obviously something only our grand kids will see, and no concern for us.


This is nothing to do with "war" - it is plain old "Public Policy":

Ohio's policy has been-and must continue to be that - public funds should not be spent on services provided offshore


Such public policies are updated as situations change. As an example most states (is not all) did not hire foreigners - since the 1970s. When "offshore" become a reality they added that to the old policies.

I have not kept up with it, but TSC still can bid, as long as they bring local resources to the project (it could be Indians who are reloacted to the US).

Many commercial companies have such restrictions too (banks involving sensitive data). But, Wipro, etc are not excluded from such projects.


There are rules and then there are exceptions to the rules too.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby NRao » 26 Jul 2014 21:47

Did not someone (Shiv?) mention that there were Chinese running around HAL(?) installing and running the CNC machines?

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby member_26622 » 27 Jul 2014 01:43

Chinese? May be they are Taiwanese or South Korean?

Long time back I made the mistake of assuming a north-east Indian was Korean. Still feel bad about the assumed generalization.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 27 Jul 2014 10:54

NRao wrote:*Not* true.

There are plenty of Indian companies that "supply" to the US DefDept (and actually a lot in the ME). As long as such entities are "cleared" it is fine.

Also, as recently as Jan, 2014: Exclusive: U.S. waived laws to keep F-35 on track with China-made parts


http://americanmanufacturing.org/files/ ... 10v2_0.pdf
For more than 70 years, the United States has had domestic sourcing or “Buy America” laws on the books
to ensure that American-made goods and materials have preference over imported products with respect
to government procurement and infrastructure projects. Including domestic sourcing requirements in
job creating legislation would be the most effective way to ensure taxpayer dollars are used to create and
maintain jobs and manufacturing capacity to the maximum extent possible, thereby vastly improving the
stimulative effect of government spending. Under current law, domestic sourcing requirements apply to
general government procurement, materials for highway and transit infrastructure investments, projects
funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (the Recovery Act), and elsewhere.

“Buy America” is a proven job creation tool that is broadly supported by Congress, the American people, and hundreds of local governments throughout the United States. Domestic sourcing laws comply with our
international trade obligations and are utilized by numerous foreign governments. For all of these reasons,
“Buy America” provisions should continue to be utilized in infrastructure and other spending bills so that
our manufacturing base can thrive and so that more Americans can earn a paycheck and contribute to the
overall welfare of the nation


NRao this gets tedious. You shoot from the hip without making a cursory fact check. Google is my friend, it can be yours as well. Also, if you read the article you linked

Without the waivers, both companies could have faced sanctions for violating federal law and the F-35 program could have faced further delays.

"It was a pretty big deal and an unusual situation because there's a prohibition on doing defense work in China, even if it's inadvertent," said Frank Kenlon, who recently retired as a senior Pentagon procurement official and now teaches at American University. "I'd never seen this happen before."

The Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, is examining three such cases involving the F-35, the U.S. military's next generation fighter, the documents show.


Your link just proved I was right. It's against Federal law. Read the article, not just the headline.

NRao wrote:This is nothing to do with "war" - it is plain old "Public Policy":


War is war, even if it you call it public policy or collateral damage.

http://jordantimes.com/indias-trade-min ... tectionism

India has made clear it would prefer to see bilateral disputes reviewed under the auspices of the WTO, the global trade rules body, which is adjudicating on more than a dozen cases between the two countries.


That's all the way up to a nuclear exchange.

NRao wrote:I have not kept up with it, but TSC still can bid, as long as they bring local resources to the project (it could be Indians who are reloacted to the US).

Many commercial companies have such restrictions too (banks involving sensitive data). But, Wipro, etc are not excluded from such projects.


There are rules and then there are exceptions to the rules too.



Produce one exception made for an Indian company. You showed me a Chinese company. I'm asking for an exemption for any Indian company.

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 27 Jul 2014 11:10

nik wrote:Chinese? May be they are Taiwanese or South Korean?

Long time back I made the mistake of assuming a north-east Indian was Korean. Still feel bad about the assumed generalization.


http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/1 ... eaxis.html

Foreign companies in China and Taiwan have caught up with U.S. technical capabilities, rendering stringent U.S. export controls moot.
:rotfl:

Good job by HAL beating those export controls. How's that feel America?

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Re: Aerospace materials for Dhruv, Rudra, Tejas and MCA

Postby Rien » 27 Jul 2014 14:01

A little bit of research I did for this thread on a tangential issue. It turns out Bharat has an incredibly well thought out import substitution policy. This means sanctions won't bite next time.

http://www.nextbigwhat.com/us-objects-t ... india-297/

India’s plan of making it mandatory for government agencies to source electronics from Indian manufacturers, according to a new report

This would essentially mean that foreign electronics manufacturers will be shut out from large government projects. For instance, telecom equipment makers Huawei, ZTE and others will not be able to participate in the multi-billion dollar national optical fiber network (NOFN) project. For the Rs 21,000 crore telecommunications project India has made 100 % domestic sourcing mandatory. The list of approved Indian vendors include Himachal Futuristic Communications, ITI, Tejas Networks, C-DoT, VMC Systems, Prithvi Infosystems, Sai Systems, United Telecoms and SM Creative.


GoI plans to boost local telecoms manufacturing

The emphasis on developing a robust local telecom manufacturing ecosystem is also aimed at reining in "huge forex outflows and GDP losses" triggered by India's huge import dependence.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 156224.cms

Semiconductor Fabs

India's demand for electronics products is forecast to rise nearly 10 times during this decade to reach $400 billion by 2020, causing policy makers to worry that electronics imports, with no major local manufacturing, could exceed those of oil.

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/others/news/ind ... rat-483854

In combination with the use of local materials as spelt out in this thread, it's possible to eliminate the damage from the next round of US sanctions. I still think a policy of sourcing from countries hostile to the US such as Iran, Venezuela, Cuba etc would be beneficial for vital commodities that are not produced internally. Nickel is one such commodity. This would remove the leverage the US has to punish Bharat.

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US sanctions enforced against Bharat

Postby Rien » 27 Jul 2014 14:41

http://learnexportcompliance.bluekeyblo ... ies/india/

There's already 3 violations since Obama's new "Bharat friendly" policy. And it's no surprise when you consider how easy it is to fall afoul of US regulations

http://www.insidecounsel.com/2013/07/05 ... port-rules

If you are a U.S.-based company that is either a vendor of technology or simply a user of technology, there are several ways that you can violate U.S. export laws and breach your software licenses, without ever leaving the U.S. or directly shipping any technology outside the U.S. borders.


Defense contractor arraigned on charges she exported military blueprints to india without a license - 2013

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nj/Press/fi ... lease.html

The U.S. unit of British aerospace and defense manufacturer Meggitt Plc has agreed to pay up to $25 million to resolve hundreds of possible export control violations <snip>.

It said the settlement was part of a consent agreement. The State Department said it conducted a compliance review after Meggitt disclosed multiple potential violations of U.S. export control laws through shipments to India,<snip>.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013 ... -agreement

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/ ... tSheet.pdf

It's not possible to have trade relations with the US when even a desktop PC falls under export regulations. US rules exceed the limits of reasonable. No wonder the US-India trade is so lopsided in Bharat's favour. Even if you wanted to, how could you even dare to import any US maal?


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