Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Vipul » 09 Jan 2015 20:03

IAF gets first overhauled Su-30 MKI.

In first overhauled Su-30 MKI (SB 027) aircraft reached the Indian Air Force (IAF) on Friday. Su-30MKI is currently the backbone of fighter fleet with IAF, has long needed an overhaul.

In an official press release issued here, HAL said: "After the overhaul, the Su-30MKI aircraft (SB 027) is ready for IAF's use. The serviceability levels of Su-30 MKI fleet will enhance greatly resulting in strengthening of air defence capabilities."

The twin-seater, long range, multi-role, air superiority aircraft are being overhauled at HAL's Nashik facility. More than 10,000 lines of unique part numbers, amounting to nearly 75,000 quantities are processed, reconditioned, repaired, overhauled and assembled back on the aircraft during overhauls.

"After successful testing of various systems on ground and in air, as per stipulated flight profiles, the aircraft is certified to fly. At present, the TTL (Total Technical Life) of the aircraft is 6000hrs/25 years," the press note said.

HAL Chairman R K Tyagi said that the Su-30 overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is one of its kind in the world and has great export prospect as nearly 10 countries have Su-30 fleets.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 09 Jan 2015 20:35

Cosmo_R wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Could someone please clarify what happened to first lot of 50 Su-30K/MK which we imported from Russia? Were they upgraded and absorbed back or exchanged with Russia for new Su-30MKI? THANKS.


IIRC, the first 18 SU-30 MK1 (not MKI) were taken back by Sukhoi and sold to Belarus (?). The rest should be in current service. The MK1s were offloads from Indonesia who could not pay for them.


the rest are indeed in current service as the last sukhoi accident was from the first lot of 50 .

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Nikhil T » 10 Jan 2015 16:32

Click for picture here

Latest confirmation of number of HAL manufactured Su-30MKIs. 150th bird handed over Jan 8th, 2014.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby fanne » 10 Jan 2015 16:55

Nikhil, misleading. All it is saying is that 150th su30mki was overhauled. Some may have been overhaul twice ( though unlikely or very few of them). Su 30 maki number stands around 200 or so I hope.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby sankum » 10 Jan 2015 18:58

Only first 18nos were of Su 30 K/MK standard which were replaced by new build aircraft and rest 32nos were of Su 30mki standard tough of different incremental standard which were later upgraded to final configuration.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 10 Jan 2015 19:11

fanne wrote:Nikhil, misleading. All it is saying is that 150th su30mki was overhauled. Some may have been overhaul twice ( though unlikely or very few of them). Su 30 maki number stands around 200 or so I hope.


nope. 150th su-30 mki manufactured AND 1st ROH MKI, sb-027. both handed over.
sb-027 - http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 11 Jan 2015 22:45

PSK have again come up with a farticle saying mkis don't have low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability!!!
This is what Vayu-sena site have to say in contrary

"Ground surveillance modes include mapping (with Doppler beam sharpening), search & track of moving targets, synthetic aperture radar and terrain avoidance. To penetrate enemy defenses, the aircraft can fly at low altitudes using the terrain following and obstacle avoidance feature. It enables the pilot to independently find his position without help from external sources (satellite navigation, etc.); detect ground targets and their AD systems; choose the best approach route to a target with continuous updates fed to the aircraft navigation systems; and provide onboard systems and armament with targeting data.

According to Sukhoi EDB the Su-30MKI is capable of performing all tactical tasks of the Su-24 Fencer deep interdiction tactical bomber and the Su-27 Flanker A/B/C air superiority fighter while having around twice the combat range and atleast 2.5 times the combat effectiveness."

Source http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html#8

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jan 2015 00:13

Karan M wrote:
fanne wrote:Nikhil, misleading. All it is saying is that 150th su30mki was overhauled. Some may have been overhaul twice ( though unlikely or very few of them). Su 30 maki number stands around 200 or so I hope.


nope. 150th su-30 mki manufactured AND 1st ROH MKI, sb-027. both handed over.
sb-027 - http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html


Karan - it can't be 150th Su-30 MKI manufactured by HAL if the numbers in CAG Report are anything to go by.

Check this:

- HAL was to deliver 112 a/c from contract of 140 a/c by 2013 (this should be March 2013).
- But it had delivered on 81 a/c in this period.
- Production schedule as per the same contract for 2013-14 and 2014-15 was 16 and 12 a/c, respectively.

In addition, HAL is to manufacture 36 more a/c from 2nd (2007) and 3rd (2012) contracts with delivery slated between 2015-18 time frame @12 a/c per annum.

So, had the HAL met it's agreed upon timeline for first contract, it would have delivered 140 a/c by March 2015. How come with a delayed manufacturing schedule which led to short-fall in production of 31 a/c as of March 2013, it managed to deliver 150th HAL manufactured a/c in January 2015? :P :P :P

The are two explanations is this:

(a) HAL has in the past increased the work-share of OEM to tide over delay in production. Of the 81 a/c delivered by March 2013, 20 (amounting to 25% of 81) were those where OEM work share was jacked up substantially to make them practically imports.

I would not be surprised if the same thing has been done here. But even then, production of 69 a/c between 2013 and 2015 even with HAL and OEM working in parallel is not possible.

(b) HAL is passing off imported a/c (with some tinkering by HAL) as HAL manufactured!!!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Sanjay » 12 Jan 2015 01:09

Or it is a CKD aircraft

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Jan 2015 07:33

rohitvats wrote: - Production schedule as per the same contract for 2013-14 and 2014-15 was 16 and 12 a/c, respectively.


If I remember correctly, they delivered 15 aircraft in 12-13 and the numbers were supposed to be ramped up significantly. The latter contract Mkis were supposed to be built from SKD kits to speed up the delivery.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby sivab » 12 Jan 2015 08:31

rohitvats wrote:
Karan - it can't be 150th Su-30 MKI manufactured by HAL if the numbers in CAG Report are anything to go by.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j52Wddzsu44/VLDCSbfEeEI/AAAAAAAAFe4/PA0gR_WHZPU/s1600/AA%2BParrikar%2BSu-30MKI%2BSB027%2Boverhauled.jpg
Last edited by rohitvats on 12 Jan 2015 09:06, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Large inline image removed. Link created

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jan 2015 09:04

sivab wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Karan - it can't be 150th Su-30 MKI manufactured by HAL if the numbers in CAG Report are anything to go by.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j52Wddzsu44/VLDCSbfEeEI/AAAAAAAAFe4/PA0gR_WHZPU/s1600/AA%2BParrikar%2BSu-30MKI%2BSB027%2Boverhauled.jpg


What exactly are you trying to convey by pasting that picture?

You do realize that it was exactly this picture which triggered the discussion? And the post I made above has a detailed explanation of my assertion with information sourced from CAG Report. If you've information to contrary which can prove that HAL did indeed manufacture 150 Su-30 MKI, please post it here for everyone's consumption. And I'll delete my post.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jan 2015 09:08

Thakur_B wrote:
rohitvats wrote: - Production schedule as per the same contract for 2013-14 and 2014-15 was 16 and 12 a/c, respectively.


If I remember correctly, they delivered 15 aircraft in 12-13 and the numbers were supposed to be ramped up significantly. The latter contract Mkis were supposed to be built from SKD kits to speed up the delivery.


HAL delivered 10 a/c in 2012-13 period as against planned number of 16 a/c. The 112 number which were to be delivered as of 2013 and 140 by 2015 is for a revised and compressed timeline.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby sivab » 12 Jan 2015 10:08

rohitvats wrote:If you've information to contrary which can prove that HAL did indeed manufacture 150 Su-30 MKI, please post it here for everyone's consumption.


http://aviationspaceindia.com/content/i ... naugurated

June 7, 2014

Presently HAL is manufacturing the aircraft from raw material phase and till date has produced 150 aircraft.


http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 498_1.html

June 8, 2014

Presently. HAL is manufacturing the aircraft from the raw material phase and till date has produced 150 aircraft.


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ge-402028/

4 Aug 2014

An estimated 200 Su-30MKIs are already in squadron service, with HAL having handed over more than 150 aircraft from the licensed production of 222.


https://books.google.com/books?id=X29UB ... 50&f=false

Indian Defence Review Jul-Sep 2014 (Vol 29.3)
By Lt Gen JS Bajwa, Maj Gen Mrinal Suman, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, Air Marshal Dhiraj Kukreja, Lt Gen Gautam Banerjee, Claude Arpi, Maj Gen Sheru Thapliyal

To date, HAL has delivered 150 machines to IAF of which during 2013, HAL supplied 15.


http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 612456.ece

10th January 2015

The Defence Minister handed over acceptance certificates of the first overhauled Su-30 MkI, SB 027 and the 150th Su-30 MkI (SB 190, manufactured by HAL) to the Chief of Air Staff, a statement from HAL said.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 12 Jan 2015 10:24

now the argument will be, HAL passed on CKD units as it's own production. let's see how it plays.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jan 2015 10:38

sivab wrote:<SNIP>


Since, you've obviously did not get the question, let me reiterate the same to you again - There is a production short-fall at HAL as far as Su-30MKI is concerned and basis the number in CAG Report, there is NO WAY HAL can deliver '150th HAL manufactured' A/C in January 2015. Unless, it passes off direct/to almost direct import as 'HAL Manufactured'.

And here is the definition of Phase 1, Phase 1+, Phase II, Phase III and Phase IV Su-30 MKI in Indian service:

(a) Phase 1 -- Phase-I Flight Testing Phase (FTS) envisaged delivery after system checks, Ground and Flight Tests and final finishing (Fully Imported)

(b) Phase 1+ --- Aircraft ground tested, flight tested and painted in Russia before delivery to HAL

(c) Phase 2 -- Final assembly of major assemblies and equipping of aircraft plus above phase activities (Final assembly of major assemblies by HAL)

(d) Phase 3 -- Raw material participation to commence from this phase. All components and assemblies to be manufactured in the division except the fuselage, which was to be imported, plus above phase activities

(e) Phase 4 --Manufacture of air-frame from raw materials plus above activities

And the production schedule for all Phases under first contract with HAL for 140 a/c is given below for your reference:

Year-- Scheduled--Delivered
(2004-05)---2---------2
(2005-06)---6---------3
(2006-07)--13---------8
(2007-08)--13--------14
(2008-09)--15--------12
(2009-10)--15--------10
(2010-11)--16--------11
(2011-12)--16--------11
(2012-13)--16--------10
Total---112--------81

(2013-14)--16-------- 15 (as per news you've linked above)
(2014-15)--12-------- 15 (Data not available but assuming it is 15 a/c)
Total---140-------121

Future production from 2nd and 3rd contract:
2015-16 (12)
2016-17 (12)
2017-18 12
Total (36)

Grand Total to be manufactured by HAL by 2017-18: 176

So, looking at above numbers which have been sourced from CAG Report, can you please use common sense and tell me how did HAL deliver 'HAL Manufactured 150th Su-30MKI' to IAF as of January 2015?

How did it manage to produce 31 (shortfall till 2013) + 28 (for '14 & '15) = 59 aircraft in less than a period of 2-years?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jan 2015 10:55

Shaun wrote:now the argument will be, HAL passed on CKD units as it's own production. let's see how it plays.


That is the only way it could have happened. And not for the first time.

Of the 81 delivered till 2013, 20 were for all practical purpose imported a/c. Here is the break-down:

(1) 13 a/c - Aircraft fully assembled in Russia and only flight test conducted at HAL
(2) 07 a/c - Manufacture of wings, empennage, air intake and coupling of fuselages, wings was in Russia and aircraft were supplied by it in coupled condition along with parts required in final assembly with looms, panels and relay boxes.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Viv S » 12 Jan 2015 13:11

rohitvats wrote:(a) Phase 1 -- Phase-I Flight Testing Phase (FTS) envisaged delivery after system checks, Ground and Flight Tests and final finishing (Fully Imported)

(b) Phase 1+ --- Aircraft ground tested, flight tested and painted in Russia before delivery to HAL

What's the difference between the two?

Grand Total to be manufactured by HAL by 2017-18: 176


??

121 + 36 = 157.

I believe they'll continue production at 15 per year with the last one delivered in 2019 (barring additional orders).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Yogi_G » 12 Jan 2015 13:50

Noted in TOI today about the rafale deal and that the stated serviceability of MKI is 50-55%.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Kailash » 12 Jan 2015 14:09

With the mmrca struglling to stay afloat, and conflict of priorities and timelines around the FGFA, isnt it prudent to accelerate any reverse engineering efforts of the MKIs?

I remember reading chaiwala accounts (2-3 years back) of efforts to RE of individual parts to reduce dependence on Russian spares. I hope we can handle entire production and numbers of MKI even if the Russians start to slow us down. With unresolved issues over FGFA, will be a ripe opportunity to arm twist - not to forget that the MMRCA was designed to executed with an intent to reduce dependency on Russian maal.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2015 14:16

rohit, it might well be a CKD aircraft noted as "HAL manufactured".

they didn't call out the "import from russia, assemble in india" additional airframes separately.

even so, the 59 aircraft shortfall seems hard to meet.

do the CAG numbers above include the russian CKD ones (apart from phase1-phase 4, 140 airframes?) we have 270 on order, out of which, 140 are "HAL" with the last phase 4 HAL made, 50 initially delivered from russia, so 80 airframes are "new" ex-import.

wonder whether the IAF had deliveries accelerated to meet declining sq numbers?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby JTull » 12 Jan 2015 15:08

Looks like HAL has already achieved it's stated goal of becoming a lead integrator (assembler?) rather than be a manufacturer. No wonder they've so much trouble in setting up new assembly lines for LCA (because they always get ready made rigs from overseas) or coming up with a workable IJT or other trainers.

This seems to be our biggest challenge with 'Make in India' going forward. After 5 decades of cloning imports, China seems to have achieved high rate domestic assembly lines. India, in the meantime, can only achieve high rate screw-driver technology. It looks like Modi's campaign is going to be an utter failure with these guys.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 12 Jan 2015 16:41

experts

TERRAIN FOLLOWING OR TERRAIN AVOIDANCE mode in MKIs ???

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby SanjayC » 12 Jan 2015 23:17

India May Buy Su-30 if Rafale Deal Falls Through: Defense Ministry Source
http://sputniknews.com/military/2015011 ... 04417.html

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Avarachan » 13 Jan 2015 00:48

Karan M wrote:rohit, it might well be a CKD aircraft noted as "HAL manufactured".

they didn't call out the "import from russia, assemble in india" additional airframes separately.

even so, the 59 aircraft shortfall seems hard to meet.

do the CAG numbers above include the russian CKD ones (apart from phase1-phase 4, 140 airframes?) we have 270 on order, out of which, 140 are "HAL" with the last phase 4 HAL made, 50 initially delivered from russia, so 80 airframes are "new" ex-import.

wonder whether the IAF had deliveries accelerated to meet declining sq numbers?


One possibility is that some of the "MKI's" ordered weren't actually MKI's. :)

I imagine that all of the adversarial governments already know what's probably happening. However, because the Indian government hasn't made an official announcement, it's probably wise for us not to continue this line of inquiry.

Before people start bashing HAL, they should make sure they're basing their comments on the realities involved. And I believe the realities have not yet been disclosed to the public.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 13 Jan 2015 01:05

food to think of as always Avarachan saar

So, were they irbis equipped or not?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Avarachan » 13 Jan 2015 02:33

No. However, I imagine that they can carry extra-special payloads.

All will be revealed in the fullness of time. :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby fanne » 13 Jan 2015 03:09

There was news of 40 special su30mki for strategic command, the news did not get repeated.
But then we would have photographs of it. In the world of mobile phones with camera and kind of secrets we keep this is not impossible.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 13 Jan 2015 04:42

rohitvats wrote:
sivab wrote:<SNIP>


Since, you've obviously did not get the question, let me reiterate the same to you again - There is a production short-fall at HAL as far as Su-30MKI is concerned and basis the number in CAG Report, there is NO WAY HAL can deliver '150th HAL manufactured' A/C in January 2015. Unless, it passes off direct/to almost direct import as 'HAL Manufactured'.

And here is the definition of Phase 1, Phase 1+, Phase II, Phase III and Phase IV Su-30 MKI in Indian service:

(a) Phase 1 -- Phase-I Flight Testing Phase (FTS) envisaged delivery after system checks, Ground and Flight Tests and final finishing (Fully Imported)

(b) Phase 1+ --- Aircraft ground tested, flight tested and painted in Russia before delivery to HAL

(c) Phase 2 -- Final assembly of major assemblies and equipping of aircraft plus above phase activities (Final assembly of major assemblies by HAL)

(d) Phase 3 -- Raw material participation to commence from this phase. All components and assemblies to be manufactured in the division except the fuselage, which was to be imported, plus above phase activities

(e) Phase 4 --Manufacture of air-frame from raw materials plus above activities

And the production schedule for all Phases under first contract with HAL for 140 a/c is given below for your reference:

Year-- Scheduled--Delivered
(2004-05)---2---------2
(2005-06)---6---------3
(2006-07)--13---------8
(2007-08)--13--------14
(2008-09)--15--------12
(2009-10)--15--------10
(2010-11)--16--------11
(2011-12)--16--------11
(2012-13)--16--------10
Total---112--------81

(2013-14)--16-------- 15 (as per news you've linked above)
(2014-15)--12-------- 15 (Data not available but assuming it is 15 a/c)
Total---140-------121

Future production from 2nd and 3rd contract:
2015-16 (12)
2016-17 (12)
2017-18 12
Total (36)

Grand Total to be manufactured by HAL by 2017-18: 176

So, looking at above numbers which have been sourced from CAG Report, can you please use common sense and tell me how did HAL deliver 'HAL Manufactured 150th Su-30MKI' to IAF as of January 2015?

How did it manage to produce 31 (shortfall till 2013) + 28 (for '14 & '15) = 59 aircraft in less than a period of 2-years?


There were 4 major contact signings:
  1. 40+10 -> deal in 1996 included were 18 Su-30MK later replaced by MKI; +10 were diverted from Indonasian cancelled order
  2. 140 -> HAL license manufacture deal in 2000 (broken into four phases, with each phase including more indigenous manufactured content)
  3. 40 -> additional order sometime around 2007; wasn't clear if where these were to manufactured and assembled (HAL or Irkut), but from your calculation these were likely manufactured at Irkut and assembled at HAL from SDKs; HAL may have few manufactured parts involved as well
  4. 42 -> last order in 2012 bringing total ordered to 272 (+2 for two lost in accidents at that time); it wasn't clear how the production activities were allocated between Irkut and HAL but assuming these will be mostly manufactured at HAL

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jan 2015 08:45

srai wrote:<SNIP>
There were 4 major contact signings:
  1. 40+10 -> deal in 1996 included were 18 Su-30MK later replaced by MKI; +10 were diverted from Indonasian cancelled order
  2. 140 -> HAL license manufacture deal in 2000 (broken into four phases, with each phase including more indigenous manufactured content)
  3. 40 -> additional order sometime around 2007; wasn't clear if where these were to manufactured and assembled (HAL or Irkut), but from your calculation these were likely manufactured at Irkut and assembled at HAL from SDKs; HAL may have few manufactured parts involved as well
    36 arircraft in this contract were under Phase 1 and Phase 1+ (Direct and almost direct imports). And only 4 were under Phase 2.
  4. 42 -> last order in 2012 bringing total ordered to 272 (+2 for two lost in accidents at that time); it wasn't clear how the production activities were allocated between Irkut and HAL but assuming these will be mostly manufactured at HAL
Phase 1: 10, Phase 2: 04, Phase 3: 04 and Phase 4: 24.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby alexis » 13 Jan 2015 17:47

rohit, what is the source for the phase-wise number of aircraft as outlined by you above for the last 2 lots?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jan 2015 21:11

alexis wrote:rohit, what is the source for the phase-wise number of aircraft as outlined by you above for the last 2 lots?


CAG Report which was linked couple of pages back.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 14 Jan 2015 09:35

CHAPTER IX: DEFENCE PUBLIC SECTOR UNDERTAKINGS - 9.1 Licence production of Su-30 MKI aircraft

Table -62

Phase-I
Flight Testing Phase (FTS) envisaged delivery after system checks, Ground and Flight Tests and final finishing (Fully Imported).

Phase-I+ (from notes 225)
Aircraft ground tested, flight tested and painted in Russia before delivery to HAL.

Phase-II
Final assembly of major assemblies and equipping of aircraft plus above phase activities (Final assembly of major assemblies by HAL)

Phase-III
Raw material participation to commence from this phase. All components and assemblies to be manufactured in the division except the fuselage, which was to be imported, plus above phase activities (Only fuselage was to be imported and rest all manufactured by HAL).

Phase-IV
Manufacture of airframe from raw materials plus above activities (Fully indigenised)


rohitvats wrote:
srai wrote:<SNIP>
There were 4 major contact signings:
  1. 40+10 -> deal in 1996 included were 18 Su-30MK later replaced by MKI; +10 were diverted from Indonasian cancelled order
  2. 140 -> HAL license manufacture deal in 2000 (broken into four phases, with each phase including more indigenous manufactured content)
  3. 40 -> additional order sometime around 2007; wasn't clear if where these were to manufactured and assembled (HAL or Irkut), but from your calculation these were likely manufactured at Irkut and assembled at HAL from SDKs; HAL may have few manufactured parts involved as well
    36 arircraft in this contract were under Phase 1 and Phase 1+ (Direct and almost direct imports). And only 4 were under Phase 2.
  4. 42 -> last order in 2012 bringing total ordered to 272 (+2 for two lost in accidents at that time); it wasn't clear how the production activities were allocated between Irkut and HAL but assuming these will be mostly manufactured at HAL
Phase 1: 10, Phase 2: 04, Phase 3: 04 and Phase 4: 24.


What's not broken down in the audit is the detailed status of the 2nd and 3rd contract for 40 and 42 respectively. Table-63 only seems to show break down of 1st contract for 140 units. We can assume 2nd contract for 40 aircrafts in 2007 has been fulfilled as per given timelines (2008-09 to 2011-12) since these were more or less "fully" imported. It would seem phase I of the 3rd contract has begun as well (2012-13 to 2016-17).
...
9.1.2.5 Contracts for aircraft

While execution of the main contract entered (December 2000) into by HAL with MoD was under way, two more contracts were concluded with it by MoD - one in March 2007 and the other in December 2012 as detailed in Table-64 below:
...
While the 140 aircraft were to be supplied in four phases as detailed in para 9.1.2.3, additional 40 and 42 aircraft were to be supplied in three phases (phase I (16 aircraft), phase 1+ (20 aircraft) and phase II (4 aircraft)) and four phases (phase I (10 aircraft), phase II (4 aircraft), phase III (4 aircraft) and phase IV (24 aircraft)) respectively.
...
Last edited by srai on 14 Jan 2015 11:15, edited 1 time in total.

rohitvats
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 14 Jan 2015 10:24

srai wrote:<SNIP>What's not broken down in the audit is the detailed status of the 2nd and 3rd contract for 40 and 42 respectively. Table-63 only seems to show break down of 1st contract for 140 units. We can assume 2nd contract for 40 aircrafts in 2007 has been fulfilled as per given timelines (2008-09 to 2011-12) since these were more or less "fully" imported. It would seem phase I of the 3rd contract has begun as well (2012-13 to 2016-17).<SNIP>


For IAF to have close to ~200, 54 a/c from Phase I (16), Phase I+ (20), Phase II (4) from 2nd contract and Phase I (10) and Phase II (4) from 3rd contract will have to be in place by now.

My guess is that HAL is passing off Phase II a/c under third contract as 'HAL manufactured'. Because technically, they do the final tinkering (final assembly) on the a/c before handing it over to IAF.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 14 Jan 2015 11:22

^^^

Regarding 81 actual (61 + 13 + 7), the report says this:
...
9.1.4.1 Progress in delivery (ferry out)231* of aircraft

The status of supply of aircraft against the compressed delivery schedule is furnished in Table-72:
...

-----------------------------------------------
Footnote 231* Final acceptance of the aircraft by the Contractee’s Inspector after issue of Signaling Out Certificate
...


So maybe few airframes that were assembled but had not undergone final acceptance were excluded from Table-72.
Last edited by srai on 14 Jan 2015 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

rohitvats
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rohitvats » 14 Jan 2015 11:25

srai wrote:^^^

Regarding 81 actual (61 + 13 + 7), the report says this:
...
9.1.4.1 Progress in delivery (ferry out)231 of aircraft

The status of supply of aircraft against the compressed delivery schedule is furnished in Table-72:
...

-----------------------------------------------
231 Final acceptance of the aircraft by the Contractee’s Inspector after issue of Signaling Out Certificate
...


So maybe few airframes that were assembled but had not undergone final acceptance were excluded from Table-72.


Well, for final acceptance to happen, the air-frame has to be there! If only 81 were manufactured till March 2013, then if acceptance<delivery, Su-30MKI supplied by HAL to IAF would be less than 81.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 14 Jan 2015 11:36

rohitvats wrote:...

My guess is that HAL is passing off Phase II a/c under third contract as 'HAL manufactured'. Because technically, they do the final tinkering (final assembly) on the a/c before handing it over to IAF.


Yep. 'HAL manufactured' probably is being used pretty loosely. They may even be passing off Phase I (and I+) as part of its quota delivery since they do "some" final checks before handover to the IAF.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 14 Jan 2015 11:37

From contract/HAL perspective, all those 140 are HAL manufactured (see the delivery notices f.e.), they just publicize the Phase 4 ones specifically as "built from raw materials in India" etc.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2015 11:36

HAL hands-over the first overhauled Su-30 MKI
Defence Minister Lauds the Unique Feat

The Defence Minister Mr. Manohar Parrikar handing over acceptance certificates of the first overhauled Su-30 MkI, SB 027 to the Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, Chief of the Air Staff at a function in Nashik on January 9, 2015. HAL Chairman, Dr. R.K. Tyagi, (second from right), Mr. K.K. Pant (right), Joint Secretary (Aero), Mr. S. Subrahmayan (second from left), Managing Director of MiG Complex (HAL) are also seen.

The first overhauled Su-30 MkI, SB 027.

January 09, 2015: HAL handed the first overhauled Su-30 MKI (SB 027) aircraft to the India Air Force through the Defence Minister, Mr. Manohar Parrikar at a ceremony held at HAL Nashik today. Su-30MKI is currently the backbone of fighter fleet with IAF. Speaking on the occasion, the Defence Minister lauded the efforts made by HAL in absorbing technology and described the Nashik employees as “excellent and motivated workforce”. He said India would continue to need fighter planes such as Su-30s due to not so friendly neighbourhood. He urged the employees to keep-up the good work towards increasing the production capacity. “We are one family and let us work together”, he said.

The Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, Chief of the Air Staff said the Indian Air Force would continue to depend on HAL heavily in future too. “We both are inter-dependent”, he added.

Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL said the second aircraft is ready for delivery. “HAL will also act as a single window OEM for supporting Su-30MKI fleet. We are confident of improving the serviceability and ramp up capacity”, he added. He pointed out that five participating divisions (Nasik, Koraput, Lucknow, Korwa, and Hyderabad) of MiG and Accessories complexes of HAL are involved in the mega program.

The Su-30 overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is only of its kind in the world and has export prospect since nearly 10 countries have Su-30 fleet.

The Defence Minister handed over acceptance certificates of the first overhauled Su-30 MkI, SB 027 and 150th Su-30 MkI (SB 190, manufactured by HAL) to the CAS.

Mr. S. Subrahmayan, Managing Director of MiG Complex welcomed the gathering. Mr. K.K. Pant, Joint Secretary (Aero), Mr. Harishchandra Chavan, (M.P.), Hemant Godse (M.P.), Mr. Anil Kadam (MLA, Niphad) and large number of HAL employees were present the occasion.

Ten new shops and existing facilities like pipeline overhaul, plating/process and shops of Aircraft Manufacturing Divisions are extensively used during the overhaul (ROH). Tentative Repair Technical Documents (RTD) were received from Russia. During the overhaul process, the technologies have been finalised with the help of Russian and HAL experts. There are 2478 number of tasks/technology process to execute the complete overhaul of aircraft. Online system for tracking/monitoring of parts are also established.

After overhaul (ROH), the first Su-30MKI aircraft - SB 027 is ready for the service of the nation and as a result of the establishment of ROH facilities, the serviceability levels of Su-30 MKI fleet will enhance greatly resulting in strengthening of the Indian Air Defence capabilities.

The twin-seater, long range, multi-role, air superiority Su-30 MKI aircraft are being overhauled at HAL Nashik for the first time in the world on completion of the specified TBO (Time between Overhaul) life, given to it after manufacturing. During overhaul, an aircraft undergoes stripping to skeleton level, checking and reconditioning of each and every repairable component, incorporating more than 600 modifications, replacing the non-repairable defective/life expired components and finally rebuilding it to original configuration of latest standard of Su 30 MKI aircraft. During overhaul more than 10000 lines of unique part numbers, amounting to nearly 75000 quantities are processed, reconditioned, repaired, overhauled and assembled back on the aircraft. After successful testing of various systems on ground and in air, as per stipulated flight profiles, the aircraft is certified to fly for next assigned TBO life. At present, the TTL (Total Technical Life) of the aircraft is 6000hrs/25 years.

Overhauling process starts when aircraft along with document is received in ARS (Aircraft Receiving Section), incoming test are performed and de-painting of total structure is done. During aircraft dismantling, major components such as engines, wings, control surfaces are dismantled first and detail dismantling to remove various aggregates/pipelines, flight control rods /bell cranks, fabricated and standard parts etc. are carried out thereafter. The parts dismantled and pre-surveyed are sent to the concerned overhaul shops for further operations/processes.

Aggregates of various systems such as Mechanical system, Landing Gear system, Aircraft Armament system, Aeronautical Equipment system, Electrical systems, Avionics systems are overhauled to give it new TBO life. Broadly, the procedure involved are dismantling, fault finding, part reconditioning/replacement, assembly and testing. Seven hundred and forty such variety of aggregates are involved from all overhauling shops of Nasik and sister Divisions.

HAL teams from project planning, technologists, shop floor personnel, production engineering, quality, maintenance personnel, etc. exhibited high level of professionalism to establish Su-30ROH facilities, technology proving, mastering and freezing of technology, concurrently. Specialists from Russia supported and contributed in the process.


http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=54 ... -Su-30-MKI

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 16 Jan 2015 12:03

^^^

Good details!

Case is being made for more Su-30MKI orders. When you think about how much time it took to build the Su-30MKI infrastructure, absorb ToT and increase fleet availability, it makes a whole lot of sense to get more to leverage existing setup instead of spending billions on another new "filler" type in Rafales. It would be better to spend savings from $20-$30 billion on LCA Mk.1/2, FGFA, AMCA and UCAV.


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