Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

[Karan M]

Agree with some of the posters on time for India to invest heavily into the super-MKI MLU:

• Sensors -> AESA (L-band and X-band), IRST, HMS
• ECCM -> "SPECTRA"-type of integrated electronic warfare suite (long-range detection, identification and accurate localisation of RF/IR/Laser threats and their countermeasures, such as decoys and jamming)
• New Cockpit -> better data fusion
• Weapons -> new Long-ranged AAMs and AGMs/PGMs (multi-strike single pass)
• RCS/Signature reduction and airframe improvements -> engine blade masking, RAM coating, more composites
• Life-cycle management improvements -> localization of more parts and Performance Based Logistics (PBL)

Anything else?

Weapons. The existing ones need to be upgraded. Hopefully the Astra will be ordered in bulk by IAF in Mk1 itself to replace the RVV-AE as versus waiting for unobtainium.

[member_28397]

Agree with some of the posters on time for India to invest heavily into the super-MKI MLU:

• Sensors -> AESA (L-band and X-band), IRST, HMS
• ECCM -> "SPECTRA"-type of integrated electronic warfare suite (long-range detection, identification and accurate localisation of RF/IR/Laser threats and their countermeasures, such as decoys and jamming)
• New Cockpit -> better data fusion
• Weapons -> new Long-ranged AAMs and AGMs/PGMs (multi-strike single pass)
• RCS/Signature reduction and airframe improvements -> engine blade masking, RAM coating, more composites
• Life-cycle management improvements -> localization of more parts and Performance Based Logistics (PBL)

Anything else?

Engines --- russian next generation engine

[Y. Kanan]

One question keeps nagging me: how will SU-30MKI production be affected by the pending Rafale deal? After spending at least $300 million for each Rafale, will there be anything left for further modernization and expansion of our SU-30 force?

[Austin]

Night Picture of Rear Cockpit of Su-30

[Kartik]

The Russians seem fairly confident that the IAF will sign the deal for an additional 40 Su-30MKI fighters this year to be assembled by HAL.

Russia plans 4 Sukhoi sales in 2016

..

Russia may deliver Su-35S (NATO reporting name: Flanker-E+) fighters to China in late 2016, he said.

"Deliveries of Su-35S to China are likely to begin in late 2016 - early 2017. Su-35S is a sophisticated aircraft," he said adding, that export modification of the fighter will be supplied.

"Chinese adjustments were jointly designed, something was done by us and something by China. Adjustments were introduced to aircraft displays, in particular," the source said.

It was reported in November 2015 that Moscow and Beijing had agreed on supplies of 24 fighters, as well as ground equipment and spare engines. The deal was valued at not less than $2 billion. China has become the first international buyer of Russian Su-35S which are currently supplied to the Russian Air Force.

India may buy in Russia additional 40 Su-30MKI (NATO reporting name: Flanker-H) multipurpose fighter sets for local assembly, the source said.

"Indian Air Force faces a number of problems. The purchase of French Rafale fighters is in doubt and no serial production has been launched for Indian aircraft designs," he pointed out.

"The equipment of the national Air Force with new combat aircraft is vital, and the purchase of another 40 Su-30MKI fighter sets for local assembly will help India," the source said.

If agreement is reached the additional Su-30MKI sets delivery terms will be agreed in an appendix to the main contract.

India has ordered 272 Russian Su-30MKI fighters in total. The first contract for the purchase of 230 aircraft in Russia and their licensed production in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited Corporation (HAL) was signed in the middle of the '90s. In December 2012, HAL signed another contract worth USD1,66 billion for additional 42 locally assembled Su-30MKI.

India assembles the fighters according to the license obtained by HAL. Since 2007, Russia has delivered 50 aircraft in flyaway condition. Then India has assembled 134 licensed fighters. The national Air Force plans to deploy 14 Su-30MKI squadrons by 2018. Therefore, at least 272 fighters should be delivered by this time.
..

[Philip]

As the cost implications weighs heavier in the minds of the GOI decision-makers,and the 4 service centres begin to deliver,MKI numbers could even touch 350.That would mean effectively half of the IAF's combat strength would be Flanker derivatives. Armed with newer AAMs and BMos /other new ASMs,what the IAF then needs are enough numbers of light/med aircraft to keep sqd. numbers happy.LCAs and Gripens would be the best bet if the Rafale deal is scuttled due to cost.FGFAs also required to counter the Chinese stealth aircraft post 2020.

[member_29350]

Short of an emergency mode production drive of LCA, I don't see any alternatives to the SU MKI. Simply put, they meet our needs now,cost effective and immediately deployable without a training window for the ground support staff

[JTull]

Re-engine'ing of Jaguars is imperative now.

[Yagnasri]

Re-engine'ing of Jaguars is imperative now.

What is the programme for upgrading MKIs. There is no news on that. If we are ordering new ones, we need to have them with the required upgrades like more powerful engine etc.

[andy B]

Night Picture of Rear Cockpit

Austin any idea what Su30 that cockpit is from.....to me that looks like the Russian SM as those mfds look distinctively russian and it also looks like it has the single panel hud?

[Austin]

Night Picture of Rear Cockpit

Austin any idea what Su30 that cockpit is from.....to me that looks like the Russian SM as those mfds look distinctively russian and it also looks like it has the single panel hud?

Yes you guessed it right those are Russian Su-30SM rear view cockpit , Althought the arragement remains the same for MKI/MKM cockpit

[Philip]

I think matters will move faster on MKI upgrades once the first weapons tests of BMos air-launched takes place. The upgrades of all SU-30s in service require the structural modifications reqd. for BMos,plus whatever other reqs for advanced AAMs and other AS munitions.

[member_20453]

Re-engine'ing of Jaguars is imperative now.

Should be done asap indeed, can someone reach out to S.Jha to check on the status of this? With Israeli AESA, new engine the Jag will be an entirely different animal. Also this puppy deploys weapons like the CBU-105 SFW i.e cans of cluster ***k the Jag is also a great candidate for the Spice Rack.

[member_29350]

I think matters will move faster on MKI upgrades once the first weapons tests of BMos air-launched takes place. The upgrades of all SU-30s in service require the structural modifications reqd. for BMos,plus whatever other reqs for advanced AAMs and other AS munitions.

Why would we want structural modifications for all MKIs? 3-4/squadron should be enough? Given a random sortie,we'd not need it for all of them,right?

[member_28880]

Expert/pundit intervention required?

Do we have KAB-1500 in the inventory for our MKIs ?
I know IAF operates KAB-500, there are many references including videos, but what abt KAB-1500. They r the big boys, can provide the MKIs more punch for a SEAD role.

[Austin]

Probably the IAF does use KAB-1500 besides other KAB series , The KAB-1500L was used recently in Syria

Video of KAB-1500 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O8LCVSr7og

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... rikes.html

[srai]

Expert/pundit intervention required?

Do we have KAB-1500 in the inventory for our MKIs ?
I know IAF operates KAB-500, there are many references including videos, but what abt KAB-1500. They r the big boys, can provide the MKIs more punch for a SEAD role.

You don't need that big a bomb for SEAD role. What you need is long-range standoff weapons with bomblets to sanitize large area, which is how typical modern SAM systems deploy (i.e. radar, launchers, command vehicles and other support vehicles are spread over few kilometers). Most of these new generation stand-off weapons, like JSOW, are in the 450-500kg (1000lb) class or weight less in case of ARM.

Typically, large bombs (1500kg warhead) are used for deep bunker-busting roles. Everything else, the shift has been towards smaller warheads but with better precision.

The IAF has standardized on 1000lb GP and 450kg HSLD bombs, which are typically used for destroying single targets. All LGB kits used currently are for these class (1000lb/450kg/500kg). They even have PB-500 bomb (450kg) kit for bunker-busting. Smaller bombs, like 100kg and 250kg HSLD/FAB, are used in multiples as an area weapon. These are what you expect to see normally at airshows and exercises.

So to answer your question, it is unlikely the IAF operates KAB-1500 series, but if it did then the quantities held are really small. I don't recall ever seeing any photos/videos of KAB-1500 with the IAF. We have seen plenty of KAB-500s in use and display though.

[Gyan]

I suspect that orders for Additional Su-30MKI are stuck as Russia is playing hardball on price, technology transfer for spare parts manufacture etc. We must remember that Putin played hardball on T-90 price & ToT and got away with it. I think that same is happening on all Russian deals that are now stuck like Su-30MKI, PAKFA, MRTA etc. The problem might be that current PM/RM are difficult to influence.

[Philip]

MP's recent statement about getting the best price for India (Rafale deal) and keeping his cards close to his chest,indicate that he has a Plan B in place even if the IAF hasn't! The amt. of money earmarked for the Raffy is a fixed one,open knowledge,and either the French back down on the price or it will be used for acquiring other aircraft,the additional remarks abut a second fighter to be built in India apart from the LCA. Once the first successful BMos air launch takes place,will the wheels move faster reg. the planned/reported upgrades of all MKIs and any additional numbers.

[rgosain]

MP's recent statement about getting the best price for India (Rafale deal) and keeping his cards close to his chest,indicate that he has a Plan B in place even if the IAF hasn't! The amt. of money earmarked for the Raffy is a fixed one,open knowledge,and either the French back down on the price or it will be used for acquiring other aircraft,the additional remarks abut a second fighter to be built in India apart from the LCA. Once the first successful BMos air launch takes place,will the wheels move faster reg. the planned/reported upgrades of all MKIs and any additional numbers.

Phil, one of the upgrade options that has never been discussed as an alternative to the Rafale purchases is acquiring the navalised version of the Mig29 fulcrum that the IN has just taken delivery of and are very satisfied. Although optimised for naval use it should provide an ideal addition to the iaf's current mig-29 fleet and provides further diversification and upgrade paths since most of the supply chain, powerplant and future avionics can be sourced locally. Countries like Vietnam who are looking to upgrade their fulcrums can even be partners. It also offers a lifelinne to Mapo-Mig for future combat aircraft

[Karan M]

X Posted from the Indian Military Aviation thread.

India likely to acquire 164 Litening 5 targetting pods and an unspecified number of Spice 250 standoff glide bombs to equip the Su-30 MKI fleet from Israel:

Rafael anticipates Litening, Spice deal with India

per Parrikar even this is stuck in pricing

Instead of Agnis, DRDO really really needs to fix this issue on priority basis. the lack of bulk availability of PGMs is a huge issue

[ramana]

srai, There is a Russian 500kg one also being made by OFB.
tsarkar had posted a link to it.

The KAB-1500 is also SEAD and it kills the aircraft in the hanger.

[Philip]

RG,have said it before,many a time.The 29Kand upgraded 29s should be tried out against the upgraded M-2K.The 29Ks were obtained for approx just $30M per plane and upgraded of all 60+ 29UGs for less than %1B,compared with $2.5B for just 40 M2Ks. MIG-29 engines are also being manufactured in India.As a cost-effective method of increasing numbers,it is the best option since LCA MK-1A production has yet to take off,even at the rate of 4-8/yr.The first LCA sqd was supposed to have been commissioned at Sulur 3-4 years ago! There are reports that several countries are looking at 29s and 35s to augment their forces.Egypt being one country. Russia is also building more 29Ks for their own carrier/s. Somehow the IAF is hell-bent upon acquiring the most expensive Western fighters.Even at a lower % of availability,one would be able to get 4-5 29s for the price of just one Rafale and at least 2 MKIs.With the 4 service centres for MKIs being set up in an Ru-Indo JV,the issue of availability should be a thing of the past when they are operational.

[srai]

^^^

The whole MRCA saga could have been avoided with gradual buy of existing types back in 2000. Instead of going for license production w/ ToT etc (which was always going to be complicated and costly), 2 or 3 squadrons each of Mirage-2000 and MiG-29s could have been bought off-the-shelf with subsequent expansion of existing support infrastructure. One of the priorities should have been on fleet rationalization above else given that larger quantities offer better value for money in the long run when factoring LCC, training, and weapons. It would have been better to have had 6 squadrons of MiG-29 and 6 squadrons of Mirage-2000 than 6 squadron of new-never-coming super expensive medium fighter--adding to logistics complexity. How much more capability does the Rafale provide over upgraded Mirage-2000 & MiG-29 to justify its enormous acquisition costs?

[NRao]

The whole MRCA saga could have been avoided with gradual buy of existing types back in 2000.

That should have solved the problem the IAF faced. It would not have solved the anticipated evolution of the MIC. The TOT component was meant for the MIC.

I think the idea was great. Execution was horrendous. Par for India.

[srai]

^^^

India already has/had various levels of ToT meant for supporting its fleet of Mirage-2000 and MiG-29s. This could have been gradually increased too.

The sad truth regarding ToT is that it is not as great as the hype sounds. Almost all of the ToT is meant for supporting that platform within India. ToT, by the context and restrictions, is not meant for using that on other platforms.

[NRao]

^^^

India already has/had various levels of ToT meant for supporting its fleet of Mirage-2000 and MiG-29s. This could have been gradually increased too.

That is news to me (that there was ToT for M2K and -29 AND that it could have helped advance a fledgling Indian MIC), but it really did not matter THEN.

The idea of a "ToT' was (as was discussed on BR too in those heady days) was to be able to have access to leading edge techs that could be absorbed within the Indian MIC (that really did not exist THEN). (Which also makes me feel that anything to do with the -29/M2K did not provide much breathing room.)

The sad truth regarding ToT is that it is not as great as the hype sounds. Almost all of the ToT is meant for supporting that platform within India. ToT, by the context and restrictions, is not meant for using that on other platforms.

The "sad truth" is based on hind sight. Rewind and the picture is very different. IMHO, IF Indians had written the legalese right, then these problems would not have cropped up. Of course the counter argument is that IF Indians had said that they have the right to use the ToT anywhere India pleases, then what are the chances that the ToT would be even shared.

But that expectation was there and if one re-visits BR threads one should be able to find proud posts on India manufacturing SCBs, etc - the expectation was that such techs could be used elsewhere.

[Viv S]

The 29Ks were obtained for approx just $30M per plane

Explicitly false

MIG-29 engines are also being manufactured in India.

Also false.

As a cost-effective method of increasing numbers,it is the best option since LCA MK-1A production has yet to take off,even at the rate of 4-8/yr.

The normal reaction to which, would be to invest in expanding the Tejas' production, not to facilitate Russian exports by cutting into the Tejas' domestic market.

[srai]

^^^

That's where "No Plan B" has come to bite one's behind. Logical backup plan would have been to acquire first-hand/second-hand MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 even if in limited quantities where available. But that should have occurred some 10-years ago triggered by slow pace of MRCA acquisition. 15-years later it is not an option anymore.

The focus now, as you have stated, should be on indigenous LCA (and its future variants) along with Su-30MKI that are being produced in India. Upgrade these platform with the best money can build and buy (locally as much as possibly that is).

[Cain Marko]

It is still a viable option...the LCA is not going to be built in numbers any time soon..it will take time to ramp up production to offset dwindling numbers. Additional M2ks, fulcrums would come in rather quickly if directly purchased from OEM (in case of mig). But I think this is where the extra order of 40 MKIs will do the trick.

[srai]

^^^

You're forgetting the sloth that Indian Bureaucracy is in decision making Add at least 5-years minimum for approvals. Those planes won't arrive before 8 years.

LCA and MKI are the viable options going forward since both are in production. Approvals for desi products are a whole lot quicker ... only the armed forces need to place adequate orders and design/production agencies need to hold their end of the bargain.

[Austin]

Malaysian Su-30MKM demonstrating Thrust Vectoring at Recent Singapore AirShow

http://bcove.me/4yc0bexq

[shiv]

Malaysian Su-30MKM demonstrating Thrust Vectoring at Recent Singapore AirShow

http://bcove.me/4yc0bexq

VERY nice!

[srai]

IMO, four more Su-30MKI specialized squadrons should be ordered as a follow up.

• 2 squadrons (40 units) -> specialized EW/SEAD roles (similar to F-18G)
• 2 squadrons (40 units) -> specialized long-range ground-attack/nuclear delivery for SFC (similar to French AF Mirage-2000N)

Both of the above roles require big birds and Su-30MKI would fit the bill nicely. With the addition of specialized EW platforms, the survivability of IAF's other assets would increase exponentially when facing advanced air defenses.

[srai]

Malaysian Su-30MKM demonstrating Thrust Vectoring at Recent Singapore AirShow

http://bcove.me/4yc0bexq

VERY nice!

Good air display! Worth watching. In comparison, IMO the IAF aerobatics displays of MKI are a bit of a letdown.

This should be shown to the DD editors and cameramen on how to video air displays

[shiv]

Good air display! Worth watching. In comparison, IMO the IAF aerobatics displays of MKI are a bit of a letdown.

This should be shown to the DD editors and cameramen on how to video air displays

Not really. I would not be that unkind to the IAF when everyone else takes time out to sing the praises of their own and look down on others - including that Malaysian display, why must only Indians do others' work? The Malaysian display was done at a much higher altitude that allows for a much greater altitude loss during the display and allows more carefree manoeuvring - so the post stall aerobatics in the Malaysian display are spectacular but watch how much height he gains before doing it and how much he loses in recovery. And the display was over the sea - that is sea level compared to the IAF's requirement of doing it over Bangalore usually. I think we have forgotten Iron Fist 2013 where the camerawork was much better and the display done at the IAF's characteristically low altitude.

Su-30 from Iron Fist 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q35d2jtPP6Q

[Sid]

^^agree. IAFs Su 30 show during Iron Fist was much much better.

Only thing lacking was video coverage. DD suck.

[Austin]

Russia offers maintenance, after-sales support for defence

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/russ ... 30079.html

By Snehesh Alex Philip

Quepem (Goa), Mar 29 (PTI) Amid concern in the defence establishment over poor serviceability of the countrys mainline fighter aircraft Su30 MKI, Russia today said it has offered India comprehensive maintenance and after-sales support for equipment sold by it, including aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.

This, Russia said can "completely" solve the problem plaguing some of the products.

"Maintenance of equipment which has been delivered from Russia is a very sensitive and important issue," Vladimir Drozhzhovi, Head of Federal Services for Military Technical Cooperation of Russias Rostec State Corporation, said here at the Defexpo.

He said Russia has made a lot of proposals concerning long term contracts not only for delivery of spare parts, tools and accessories but also comprehensive maintenance and after sales services of the delivered equipment.

"Proposals are for Su30, MiG 29, and also Vikramaditya aircraft carrier. And I am pretty sure that signing of such type of long term contract for maintenance and after sales services can completely solve the problem," he said.

Currently, serviceability rate of multi-role fighter aircraft Sukhoi is just about under 60 per cent.

This means that out of a total 100 aircraft, only about 60 are available for fighting.

This is mainly because the rest of the aircraft are down with servicing issue.

India plans to raise the serviceability to about 70 per cent by the year end.

In December last year, the Comptroller and Auditor General of India had also slammed the low serviceability of the aircraft.

Indian Air Force operates more than 200 Su-30MKI jets that were made in India under licensed production with the assistance of Irkut Corporation, a unit of United Aircraft Corporation).

The total orders stand at 272 planes, and an additional delivery of 40 Su-30MKI knockdown kits is being considered India accounts for over 30 per cent of Russias overall arms exports.

Each year, Moscow supplies New Delhi with various types of armaments worth about $4 billion.

Approximately $20 billion worth of contracts have been signed and are being implemented.

Since 1960, India has procured over USD 40 billion worth of Russian armaments and military hardware, according to Russias Rosoboronexport. PTI SAP SMN SK SMN

[Vipul]

Russian company eyes additional engine sales to India.

The Russian United Engine-building Corporation (UEC) is considering an Indian application for the delivery of more than 100 additional AL-31FP engines for its Su-30MKI fighters, a representative of the company said at India's Defexpo 2016 exhibition, held in Goa from 28 to31 March.

"Late last year Rosoboronexport [Russia's defence export agency] received from the Indian Air Force a tender application for over 100 AL-31FP engines to be delivered in 2017-21. It is being considered in order to assess the load on our enterprises and determine the delivery schedule," the source said.

At present UEC is fulfilling Rosoboronexport's optional contract for the delivery of 920 AL-31FP engines to India over 10 years, which was signed in 2012.

[JTull]

Russian company eyes additional engine sales to India.

The Russian United Engine-building Corporation (UEC) is considering an Indian application for the delivery of more than 100 additional AL-31FP engines for its Su-30MKI fighters, a representative of the company said at India's Defexpo 2016 exhibition, held in Goa from 28 to31 March.

"Late last year Rosoboronexport [Russia's defence export agency] received from the Indian Air Force a tender application for over 100 AL-31FP engines to be delivered in 2017-21. It is being considered in order to assess the load on our enterprises and determine the delivery schedule," the source said.

At present UEC is fulfilling Rosoboronexport's optional contract for the delivery of 920 AL-31FP engines to India over 10 years, which was signed in 2012.

Anyone still wanna talk about 100% ToT for HAL? Even manufacturing ToT?