Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 02 Apr 2016 12:38

Actually the indigenisation of Su-30MKI is 90% but due to unknown reasons 90% components may be imported and anybody who questions this fact is anti National Spy. Similar, is the situation in Brahmos. Hail DPSU fake indigenisation after 20 years of both the JVs.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 12:56

The above rhetorical posts reduces the quality of debate on the forum ..

The highest reported indigenization for the Su-30 MKI aircraft, has been 73% and the AL-31 FP is 87.7%, with raw material by contract coming from Russia. India can only make the spares completely locally.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 636_1.html

Through years of building the Su-30MKI, HAL Nashik has gradually mastered the expertise that makes it one of the world's most feared fighters. Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India.

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.


Note the transparency in data as versus "DPSU fake indigenization". The indigenization by value of the Su-30 MKI is above 51%. Of indigenization by parts is 73%. Difference driven by raw material dependency and specific high value items. Indigenization of engine is 53% by cost and 88% by parts count. Again, raw materials and specific items from Russia.

The above numbers are important because engine apart, much of the airframe and other alloys can be sourced locally for a local spares run improving long term serviceability.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2016 13:10

100 % TOT is not possible for any program as financially it won't be viable to do so for any country except for the host country where economics of scale of manuf justifies the finance , the second is IP related issues , third would be its jst cheaper to import build the inventory and warehouse then make it here.

HAL has been building Jags for close to 35 years and as karan or not sure who it was posted data which says we make 70% of it indiginously , I doubt even Tejas would end up being 100 % indigenous made here.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2016 13:12

Gyan wrote:Actually the indigenisation of Su-30MKI is 90% but due to unknown reasons 90% components may be imported and anybody who questions this fact is anti National Spy. Similar, is the situation in Brahmos. Hail DPSU fake indigenisation after 20 years of both the JVs.


Singha had quoted indigenous % from MOD for many program in some post , may he can repost it

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 02 Apr 2016 14:02

Product A costs 100. DPSU buys from abroad and sells to Army for 200. Voila! Indigenisation of 50% achieved without even painting Made in India on it.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Apr 2016 14:19

Karan M wrote:

The above numbers are important because engine apart, much of the airframe and other alloys can be sourced locally for a local spares run improving long term serviceability.



Not only that, but its also proof us against denial regimes when the chips are down and we need it most. I think we should start a program to look at critical components in all weapon systems, those we have idengised lets standardize across systems as much as possible and build strong supply chains (like we have started in this case) and and build inventory, and those we can't (like the engine in this case) we should buy big inventories and stockpile.

A big and complex and expensive program of course but crucial in my view.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 14:20

Re: DPSU import this etc
Which is again irrelevant rhetoric, since the above data for Su-30 clearly shows significant percentage of items being made locally.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 14:22

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:

The above numbers are important because engine apart, much of the airframe and other alloys can be sourced locally for a local spares run improving long term serviceability.



Not only that but proof us against denial regimes when the chips are down and we need it most. I think we should start a program to look art critical components in all weapon systems, standardize and idegenize those we can and build inventory, and those we can't (like the engine in this case) we should buy big inventories and stockpile.

A big and complex and expensive program of course but crucial in my view.


You are absolutely right and this is where MOD should have made HAL sit down with NAL, SAIL, Midhani, CSIR, DRDO, Pvt firms etc. HAL won't do it on its own since it will cost a lot, and HALs mandate from MOD under UPA was to save money and return it as farcical dividends to MOD and then back to MOF.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 14:24

Austin wrote:100 % TOT is not possible for any program as financially it won't be viable to do so for any country except for the host country where economics of scale of manuf justifies the finance , the second is IP related issues , third would be its jst cheaper to import build the inventory and warehouse then make it here.

HAL has been building Jags for close to 35 years and as karan or not sure who it was posted data which says we make 70% of it indiginously , I doubt even Tejas would end up being 100 % indigenous made here.


That's fundamentally the issue. Thousands of Flankers made and Russia can afford to amortize locally. Or be like PRC and ignore economics. India is in neither camp.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Apr 2016 14:30

We have achieved a lot of capability in weapon system design and some in components also. Every component (that is widely available off the shelf) cannot and should not be indeginsed. Key determinants of what should be indegenised should be economics and denial prospects when the chips are down.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2016 15:02

IMO there is no such thing as 100% indigenous unless someone is lying. What we need to aim for is near 100% immunity from sanctions.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 02 Apr 2016 15:24

shiv wrote:IMO there is no such thing as 100% indigenous unless someone is lying. What we need to aim for is near 100% immunity from sanctions.


You are 100% right but the "commercial reality" that everything cannot be indigenised should not be used as a "pretext" for importing practically everything. Take example of TATRA trucks, how much time did it take Pvt sector to fill the shoes of TATRA while the only thing BMEL was doing for 30 years was importing and selling at super inflated prices on single vendor basis. Similarly Dhanush? What commercial issues prevented indigenisation for 20 years?

This is not only an issue of bribes, but there is Geopolitical strategy to prevent new military industrial complex from rising.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2016 15:54

Dhanush and Type 209 HDW submarine for which we had lic to build both in India fell due to Corruption/Bribery issue and raising it was like a hot potato congress did not want to handle.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2016 16:08

I don;t think there has been any "push" for indigenization except when the chips are not only down but shattered into tiny pieces and all pieces can't be found. That is how we have Air Force base repair depots scrambling to fill in gaps that OEMs/PSUs leave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKM56xkLl8g

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 02 Apr 2016 22:29

I think, the first step is not to fake the percentage of indigenisation. Why call LRSAM, Brahmos indigenous product, say it with pride (for import pimps) that we are importing it for XYZ reasons. Then people like me can ask why import ten times more costly product compared to indigenous Akash or Prahaar.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 23:35

Where is the evidence that ANY percentage of indigenization has been faked. The evidence is entirely opposite.

Even BEML admitted its percentage of indigenization for the TATRA trucks and hence the entire deal was redone.

And India has much to be proud of for Brahmos. There is a lot of Indian contribution in the missile system. To just push your point using rhetoric you are running down Indian contribution. That sir, is not done.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Apr 2016 23:39

Gyan,

may I suggest sambhavi mahamudra or some other form of meditation/yoga ?
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 03 Apr 2016 00:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 23:41


srai
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 03 Apr 2016 04:36

^^^

These companies have orders till 2026 plus ongoing support beyond that. More orders likely extending the production run even further.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Singha » 03 Apr 2016 05:26

All our su30 need maws and those huge wingtip jammers like the ruaf ones carry. Our ngarm should be carried fleetwide

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2016 07:00

If you visit the "Out of India" thread you can see evidence of human movement from India to Russia. To that extent both Moskva and Brahmaputra are Indian Indigenous. But that apart Brahmos was never claimed to be or meant to be totally Indian in the way Rahul Gandhi is totally Indian. It is collaboration and the burning of midnight oil (or embool oil) by both sides.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby deejay » 03 Apr 2016 08:40

shiv wrote:If you visit the "Out of India" thread you can see evidence of human movement from India to Russia. To that extent both Moskva and Brahmaputra are Indian Indigenous. But that apart Brahmos was never claimed to be or meant to be totally Indian in the way Rahul Gandhi is totally Indian. It is collaboration and the burning of midnight oil (or embool oil) by both sides.


Doc Sa'ab on a roll. Summer break from surgery doctor sa'ab? :D ...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2016 09:18

deejay wrote:Doc Sa'ab on a roll. Summer break from surgery doctor sa'ab? :D ...

I know I mustn't do this - but I will. I wish I had done orthopaedic surgery so I could have been on a roll and be doing joint surgery. Joints and rolling and you could have asked me "What have you been smoking doc?"

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby jamwal » 03 Apr 2016 09:37

Gyan, can you please take your whines, rhetoric and ignorant rants to someother place like Reddit where they will be appreciated and you respected ?

Every single post of yours is a waste of time and bandwidth. Please stop posting till you are past teenage years.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 03 Apr 2016 11:24

jamwal wrote:Gyan, can you please take your whines, rhetoric and ignorant rants to someother place like Reddit where they will be appreciated and you respected ?

Every single post of yours is a waste of time and bandwidth. Please stop posting till you are past teenage years.


Thanks for an extremely informative post full of facts and data.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 03 Apr 2016 11:42

The calculation of indigenisation is based on Sale price less imported components, which means even Gross Profit, insurance, transportation, packing, assembling, testing etc is taken into indigenisation %. Now what was that CAG report that said 90%+ of components in ALH are imported including seats? Let's all get together and abuse CAG and call them teenagers including for their revelations of telecom spectrum scams. Frankly, along with our Mountain Corps we should set up Rapid spare parts import Regiment, RSIR, because that would be our main concern in next Border skirmish.

My last post on the issue. Everbody is entitled to believe what they want to. I believe that Brahmos and LRSAM are out right super costly imports with pretense of JV to sell such large orders to public, everybody else is free to disagree.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby tsarkar » 03 Apr 2016 11:46

While these two reports seem contradictory,

JTull wrote:
Vipul wrote:The Russian United Engine-building Corporation (UEC) is considering an Indian application for the delivery of more than 100 additional AL-31FP engines for its Su-30MKI fighters ... At present UEC is fulfilling Rosoboronexport's optional contract for the delivery of 920 AL-31FP engines to India over 10 years, which was signed in 2012.

Karan M wrote:
"More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India. Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India. Further indigenisation is blocked since

Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

Here is the re-conciliation

While there has been ToT and R&D where there have been gaps in ToT, the process is slow.

A poorly drafted contract that limits indigenization to 49%, seller (ROE) perfidy, need to set up a supplier base, train employees, recruit new employees have all slowed down the process.

So while HAL has indigenized as Karan posted, the production rates have been low & slow.

Unfortunately, AL-31FP is a customized version of the standard Al-31F and is high maintenance with faster than usual wear. The A-100 TV nozzles have even lower TBO.

To bridge the gap, IAF has to import.

Here are the proper facts - http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2014/12/ha ... ngine.html
Speaking to OneIndia, Rajaram Mohanty, Officiating General Manager (Sukhoi Engine Divison), said that a total of 23 engines have been made from the raw material phase now.

The first engine from the raw material phase was rolled out during 2011-12.


Where the partial honesty comes is in the following quote

“The division has so far manufactured close to 280 engines (AL-31FP) for the Sukhois"

Final Assembly from kits is NOT manufacture.

Nor are assembling 40 2007 orders + 18 2007 replacement orders + 42 2012 orders manufacturing.

Journalist Bill Sweetman, one of the few people with integrity in the industry has written an insightful piece on final assembly in the Airbus Tianjin plant in China that just assembles parts manufactured elsewhere. How final assembly is used to create a false impression of manufacturing. Someone with access to AW&ST can post the link.

And where the selective bias comes in on this forum is when indigenization supporters selectively ignore on the low rate of manufacture jeopardizing operations while indigenization bashers selectively ignore the time & effort required to indigenize or how our bureaucrats poorly negotiate contracts.

We need to have a balanced view.

Lastly, its heartening that on the Rafale, we're negotiating on the right terms (radar codes ToT) and prices, having learnt from our past mistakes.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby KBDagha » 05 Apr 2016 10:38

#HAL produced 12 Su-30 MKIs from raw material phase during FY 2015-16. Courtsey: AKM

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby maitya » 05 Apr 2016 12:02

On this topic of "indigenous" manufacturing of AL-31FP by HAL, here are my views (very old, from circa 2013 and 2014) ...
maitya wrote:View - I
<snip>
We do NOT build anything like AL-31FP indigenously - we got tricked into it by the Ruskies, believing we would though!! And these claims are nothing but face-saving gestures that one does when the realization dawns that he's been tricked into paying-up for something which he is not going to get anytime soon.

<snip>

So we do NOT build any major component of Al-32FP i.e. we do NOT build/manufacture the HPT Disks or Blades, LPR Disks or Blades, HPC Disk/Blades (not sure if they use blisks), Compressor Stators, IGV, Combustor or even the shafts. So what's left to manufacture - ah, the casings maybe (helps also put the "made in ..." sticker).

<snip>

Yes we do manufacture AL-31FP - we do import the HPT and LPT disks and blades and weld them together (or rivet them together) to form the HPT and LPT stages, import the compressor blisks all full stage and then affix/screw them to the shaft (which incidentally are also imported) and yes the combustor comes one full piece.
The casing is manufactured in-house after our Russian friends whispered the exact composition of the alloy in our years and how to manufacture it and then gave the required castings, molds and furnaces etc.

Between discerning and interested folks can compare (wrt my poser to Philip-ji) this with what we do wrt Adour from not-so-all-weather-friend ... good place to start is here - Techfocus - 2011
<snip>


maitya wrote:View - II
<snip>
<snip>
And since you continue to bring in Kaveri program to berate every indigenous technological programs, pls try and answer the following specific questions (I'm afraid it will a tad technical) - and no 100000 word random-googling based verbal calisthenics pls, specific answer to specific questions: :((


Since we have been license manufacturing AL-31Fs for more than a decade now,
1) What aspect of 3rd Gen SCB technology has Russia handed over to us i.e. are we able manufacture the SC Turbine blades and if yes, have the casting furnace/machines handed over to us by Russia?

2) Too sophisticated for the SDREs, is it? How about, telling us design and manufacturing aspect of multi-path inter-blade cooling air flow ducting (vis-a-vis Turbine Blade casting process)?

3) What aspect of compressor blade design and manufacturing technology have we got from Russia - i.e. blisk manufacturing knowhow so that some of the AL-31F compressor blisks can be manufactured in India?

4) Again if it's too sophisticated for the SDREs, how about letting us know the multi-circular-compressor blade designing (on Titanium would do, we would figure out other casted alloy types on our own) and, more importantly, the CFD code (and empirical values) of such blade geometry on, say, a 5 stage HPC.

5) What empirical data has Russia supplied to us (in form of AL-31F "knowhow" transfer) that would help us build a CFD model of supersonic flow between compressor stages - so that we can tinker with the compressor blade camber and arrive at a India-specific Flat-Rating concept?

6) Heck, did they give all the all performance parameters wrt to Thrust Rating/Throttle response/Fuel-feed-lag etc etc so that we can develop our own India specific FADEC for it?

7) I read from one of your/Austin's posts (I'm sure you must have read it as well) about Russian claim of >2K Kelvin TeT materials for the FGFA engine - good for them!! But since according to you Russians being so large hearted etc, how difficult will it be for them transfer the TBCs of say 1.8-1.9K Kelvin (temp differential of about 300-350deg would do, we being SDREs) grade - or atleast the material manufacturing and, more importantly, the application-process to SC Turbine blades.
etc etc.


Once you've answered these (pls note this is just a representative sample, I could have, and would ask more - but need free-time for that), we should be able to join you on your daily wailings about our piss-poor military turbofan development experience and how Super-duper Russians have tried to help us (but we still failed etc).
<snip>


So what exactly has changed in these couple of years, that is now making us think that we have mitigated the blackmailing threat by Ruski engine houses wrt AL-31FP availability (thus Su-30MKI availability) etc.

Quoting % indigenous-manufacturability wrt engine-value (or wrt engine-parts-count) is as dubious as it gets - specific aspects of engine-core component manufacturing is what really counts.
(e.g. end-to-end manufacturing and testing of HPT blades from Ni-superalloy ingots (which can be imported, as nobody will share the exact metallurgical composition and heat-treatment process etc).

And an old desi poet once said - "Ekla chalo re ..."

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 05 Apr 2016 22:34

The Su-30 data is fairly straightforward.
ReGyans post one cant tar and feather HAL based on data from the ALH. That was again CAG beancounting at its worst.

ALH is not Su-30. Mirage 2000 overhaul is not Su-30 and so forth. Each program is different.

India imports kits of two types - CKD/SKD and also the kits from which we manufacture the aircraft. The latter were what the HAL folks clearly allude to when they speak of indigenization by parts count, value (this is called raw material stage.

Sukhoi will just say India has the assembly rights for 920 AL-31FP, and will support India with it.

Some of those kits will be SKD, others CKD (believe it or not assembly of engine components is a non trivial task) and then finally raw materials from the third type of kit are manufactured, engineered into full blown engines with some parts also as part of the kit which are not available as TOT or even processing.

So Final Assembly from kits (depending on type) can definitely be manufacture. OTOH, final assembly can be merely assembly if the kits were CKD/SKD.

Just depends on type of kit and degree of HALs involvement. As I recall Phases 3 and Phase 4 corresponded more to the raw material stage.

Sukhois are in Phases, to speed up induction.

And the 40 extra Su-30s purchased were also CKD types with minimal components sourced from India (Dynamatic, HAL etc).
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 05 Apr 2016 22:36

Out of 140 aircraft, 60 were in Phase 4. Please read the whole document to get an idea of Russian intransigence viz TOT
http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default/fil ... pter_9.pdf

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 11:44

maitya wrote:Quoting % indigenous-manufacturability wrt engine-value (or wrt engine-parts-count) is as dubious as it gets - specific aspects of engine-core component manufacturing is what really counts.
(e.g. end-to-end manufacturing and testing of HPT blades from Ni-superalloy ingots (which can be imported, as nobody will share the exact metallurgical composition and heat-treatment process etc).

And an old desi poet once said - "Ekla chalo re ..."


Even if they make those HPT and NI superalloys here that would be only wrt specific program be it MKI or Rafale or what ever ( The TOT for MMRCA was less liberal then those of MKI program , the former concentrated more on offsets ) in exact composition the OEM specifies and the machine and tools they provide under OEM supervision and QC program.

You cant use those technology into other programs like Kaveri , they would be protected by IP's or the specific composition that works for Al-31F wont just work for Kaveri program.

The whole idea of TOT was always to indigenous and up keep the type in service , it was never to get technology from here and let us use it there.

The best way to Do it is Do you yourself learn from ones mistake and do it , thats how others learnt and that is how we would learn to , there is no shortcut there for sure at best a helping hand.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 06 Apr 2016 15:35

Even the components manufactured in India are from Russian sub-components or castings, forging which means we understand next to nothing about the technology involved. Russian Raw Material is a vague term which can encompass anything from whole lower fuselage or the alloy from which components are cast.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Singha » 06 Apr 2016 15:59

I learnt today aluminium alloy used on wing bottom is diff from wing top

Wing bends up in flight. Bottom sheets have stretching stress. Top sheets have compressive stress.

Per a material SC display in a museum

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby SaiK » 06 Apr 2016 22:53

should be directly related to drag. no? less drag, less stress/logically thinking

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Indranil » 06 Apr 2016 22:57

It is not related to drag, but lift.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby SaiK » 07 Apr 2016 02:40

makes sense.. also there should be induced drag from the lift. perhaps during positive AoA up to stall angle. but lift should induce the stress much more than the drags unless the flaps/slats induces them.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2016 09:21

Rare Sight but Sukhois are flying over Mumbai today not sure why must be some exercise ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Manish_P » 07 Apr 2016 11:40

Any idea where in Mumbai sir ?

I had seen a couple of MiG 29s dance in the skies over my area in the 90s.. had terrified the grandmas and housewives in my locality :)

Austin
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2016 12:25

Manish_P wrote:Any idea where in Mumbai sir ?

I had seen a couple of MiG 29s dance in the skies over my area in the 90s.. had terrified the grandmas and housewives in my locality :)


Between Jogeshwari and Parle , probably taking off from Santacruz Airport , some year back it used to be many Mig-21 and some Mig-29 over Mumbai , I believe its a yearly exercise


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