Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Jul 2018 16:41

It could also be that we are now installing fully built up Al-31FP engines in India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2018 10:00

We are just assuming its an engine failure and that too both , Could well be some internal explosion or electric failure or bird hit that was the primary cause ...possibilities are infinite need to wait for DFDR to come up with truth.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jul 2018 21:38

with range of 300 km would be a great AAM for MKI upgrade program

Russia completing R-37M air-to-air missile trials

R-37M tactical and technical characteristics are not disclosed. Only the basic parameters are known. The design is a normal aerodynamic scheme with a low-aspect wing. The range exceeds 300 km. The weight is over 500 kg, the high-explosive fragmentation payload weighs 60 kg. The missile is equipped with non-contact active radar and standby contact fuzes.

R-37M can destroy air targets on head-on course. After receiving coordinates the inertial system aims the missile at the target and thus it is invisible for radars at the midcourse flight. Active homing warhead activates closer to the target. The adversary can detect its emission but the pilot has only fractions of a second to escape the hit. The missile develops a speed of Mach 6 at the final stage of the flight.

R-37M homing warhead has an advanced high-tech control. It is equipped with a new miniature digital processor with a big memory and increased speed. The warhead is resistant to electronic warfare. Maneuvering will not help the aircraft either as the missile will catch the target even if it maneuvers with an 8g overload.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jul 2018 00:37

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 3439038464 ---> India specific upgrades for the Super 30, the upgraded Su-30MKI are still being negotiated. An itemized costing will NOT be provided once the deal is concluded.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jul 2018 00:51

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 3439038464 ---> India specific upgrades for the Super 30, the upgraded Su-30MKI are still being negotiated. An itemized costing will NOT be provided once the deal is concluded.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jul 2018 09:40

X-31 launched against a ship target by Su-34 in an exercise

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 27 Jul 2018 10:35

Purposely not posting in the Accidents thread.

Are the findings out for the cause of the recent Su 30 crash ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jul 2018 11:06

https://twitter.com/vayusena
More
#nerdfacts Hours flown by IAF MiG-21 Bisons in 2004-2008 : 38,000 hours

#Nerdfacts approx hours flown by IAF Sukhoi-30s between 2004 and 2008 = 20,000. Attrition - Nil

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jul 2018 11:07

Manish_P wrote:Purposely not posting in the Accidents thread.

Are the findings out for the cause of the recent Su 30 crash ?

Hearing that there may have been some engine related issues.

Open forum precludes more details

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 27 Jul 2018 11:12

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/vayusena
More
#nerdfacts Hours flown by IAF MiG-21 Bisons in 2004-2008 : 38,000 hours

#Nerdfacts approx hours flown by IAF Sukhoi-30s between 2004 and 2008 = 20,000. Attrition - Nil

Nerd Fact:

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Jul 2018 11:29

While Highlighting failure rate we should also highlight how higher usage trains both pilots and aircraft for war time , otherwise failures will be discovered in war time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2018 05:40

chetak wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Purposely not posting in the Accidents thread.

Are the findings out for the cause of the recent Su 30 crash ?
Hearing that there may have been some engine related issues.

Open forum precludes more details

The Court of Inquiry will take time to complete. Till then, it is a guessing game.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Jul 2018 14:16

Noted. We wait. No guessing games required.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jul 2018 11:19

MKI @ AI

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jul 2018 11:20

What kind of powers those yellow generator supply to MKI and what is the purpose of it ?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Jul 2018 12:08

Austin wrote:What kind of powers those yellow generator supply to MKI and what is the purpose of it ?

It's a ground power unit, to supply electrical power to the aircraft for ground testing and pre-start testing. Supplies both AC and DC electric power, usually 115V ac and 24V DC, with a high amperage current.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jul 2018 12:30

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017 ... 6e49bd9ab4

Air start unit: The so-called "start cart" is a wheeled airport utility that can be carted over to an aircraft. It provides high pressure air to the engine to start it. This helps save the battery from wear due to repeated use. Start carts are at every major airport.

http://www.avish-aviation.com/aboutus.html

The company after providing GPU, Air Starts and Load Banks to the civil aircraft operators, and is presently concentrating on the requirement of the Military Aviation GSE. Almost 300 Ground Power Units in four variants are operational with the IAF, IN and Army Aviation Core. These GPUs are built with a number of new concepts to make them Customer Friendly. These units are built on special Electric Vehicle for ease of deployment. The basic power generated is 50/60 Hz to make it fit for alternate commercial application. Dead 400Hz is generated by a special Static Frequency Converter (SFC) mounted inside the GPU itself. Almost 150 SFCs are operational all over the country both in sub zero Ladakh and hottest Rajasthan. 28Volts DC Power is available up to 1600 Amps on these GPUs.

NEW PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT

A number of new projects are also on the anvil like AN-32 starting aggregate and a universal GPU that should be able to start and service full variety of aircraft held by the IAF. This GPU shall be built with "Hangar Operation" capability to provide fully regulated AC/DC power inside the hangar by connecting to 415V 3 Phase 50 Hz non regulated commercial power, to avoid noise and exhaust pollution inside the hangar. The firm is also in the process of designing the most advance Air Cycle based aircraft ground cooling unit for the MMRCA.

why design something for an aircraft which is not finalised?

http://www.avish-aviation.com/trolley-m ... -Unit.html

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 31 Jul 2018 13:32

^^^^ because regardless of the final design and outcome of MMRCA, the only design points of relevance to the Ground Power Unit would be voltages, currents, connectors and conductor lengths; and even if MMRCA were scrapped chances are that the GPUs designed for the MMRCA would still be usable (with some small modifications) for existing aircraft.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 31 Jul 2018 14:47

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Austin wrote:What kind of powers those yellow generator supply to MKI and what is the purpose of it ?
It's a ground power unit, to supply electrical power to the aircraft for ground testing and pre-start testing. Supplies both AC and DC electric power, usually 115V ac and 24V DC, with a high amperage current.

If I am not mistaken, it looks like a HAL lucknow made GPU.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 31 Jul 2018 15:05

yensoy wrote:^^^^ because regardless of the final design and outcome of MMRCA, the only design points of relevance to the Ground Power Unit would be voltages, currents, connectors and conductor lengths; and even if MMRCA were scrapped chances are that the GPUs designed for the MMRCA would still be usable (with some small modifications) for existing aircraft.

No need to modify anything at all. GPUs are standard units with standard connectors that are able to supply both western and russian aircraft. Starter motors mounted on aircraft engines/ aircraft mounted APUs have standardized input supply so as to use facilities in a variety of airports in countries the world over.

An aircraft with a unique requirement for ground power is a dead duck as its mobility is restricted or it has to carry its own power sources along with it, with attendant increase in weight and thus a lifelong increase in fuel burn and operating expenses.

There are purely DC versions, purely AC versions and the mixed AC/DC versions of the GPU depending on the need, use and location. Generally, its mostly the soviet bloc aircraft that use 115V, 3 phase, 400Hz supplies.

Some GPUs even have 110V/60Hz and/or 220V/50Hz domestic supply for use with some power tools, soldering iron, test equipment like oscilloscopes etc.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Aug 2018 00:19

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 3697478656 ---> Indian Air Force Su-30MKI launching a Kh-29L Laser Homing Missile. Kh-29L features a semi-active laser guidance and has an operational range of 10 kms featuring a HE-armor piercing warhead.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Aug 2018 00:53

Kh-29L is bigger than a Maverick with 320Kg warhead as opposed to 125 lb shaped charge warhead for the former.

Despite its HE Armor piercing warhead name its in effect a powered laser guided penetration bomb.

very good weapon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-29

chola · Post by **chola** » 02 Aug 2018 08:12

It is not only us with rooskie gear. Malaysia finds out about Russian reliability too.

The Malaysian SU-30 was marginally better than the MiG-29 which is a perfect 0 out of 10.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/ ... s-can-fly/

Only four out of RMAF's 28 Russian fighter jets can fly
Tuesday, 31 Jul 2018

8:56 PM MYT

KUALA LUMPUR: Only four out of the 28 Russian fighters jets owned by the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) are able to take to the skies, says Mohamad Sabu.

The Defence Minister said that the RMAF had 18 Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30MKM and ten MiG-29 jetfighters.

"Only four of the Sukhois are able to fly well," he said, adding that the remaining 14 are under repair.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Aug 2018 08:56

chola wrote:
The Defence Minister said that the RMAF had 18 Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30MKM and ten MiG-29 jetfighters. "Only four of the Sukhois are able to fly well," he said, adding that the remaining 14 are under repair.

As I keep remarking, the Russians have profitably achieved global disarmament.

There was a time three & half decades ago when Soviets would fly supplies from Tashkent to Chandigarh overflying Pakistani & Chinese airspace. What a change in circumstances!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Aug 2018 09:10

chola wrote:It is not only us with rooskie gear. Malaysia finds out about Russian reliability too.

The Malaysian SU-30 was marginally better than the MiG-29 which is a perfect 0 out of 10.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/ ... s-can-fly/
Only four out of RMAF's 28 Russian fighter jets can fly
Tuesday, 31 Jul 2018

8:56 PM MYT

KUALA LUMPUR: Only four out of the 28 Russian fighters jets owned by the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) are able to take to the skies, says Mohamad Sabu.

The Defence Minister said that the RMAF had 18 Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30MKM and ten MiG-29 jetfighters.

"Only four of the Sukhois are able to fly well," he said, adding that the remaining 14 are under repair.

Sure you didnt quote the part which says

In his reply during the motion of thanks on the royal address in Parliament Tuesday (July 31), Mohamed Sabu said the RMAF was unable to properly maintain the fighter jets' airworthiness.

He said the Defence Ministry had terminated the contractor engaged by the former administration and was looking at replacing them with local contractors.

They can have all the 14 flying or just 1 as long as they can maintain and pay for it , Uptimes are function of how much you want to pay for maintenance to maintain a certain percentage of fighter air worthiness.

Didnt we singed a special deal for French Rafale where we are paying through our nose just to maintain 75 % uptimes of the fighter .....pay the Ruskies the same money and you can get similar uptime.

rohan1424 · Post by **rohan1424** » 02 Aug 2018 09:31

It is not only us with rooskie gear. Malaysia finds out about Russian reliability too.

The Malaysian SU-30 was marginally better than the MiG-29 which is a perfect 0 out of 10.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/ ... s-can-fly/
Only four out of RMAF's 28 Russian fighter jets can fly
Tuesday, 31 Jul 2018

8:56 PM MYT

KUALA LUMPUR: Only four out of the 28 Russian fighters jets owned by the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) are able to take to the skies, says Mohamad Sabu.

The Defence Minister said that the RMAF had 18 Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30MKM and ten MiG-29 jetfighters.

"Only four of the Sukhois are able to fly well," he said, adding that the remaining 14 are under repair.

I wonder what will be Phillip's reaction to the above news.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 02 Aug 2018 11:14

Austin wrote: They can have all the 14 flying or just 1 as long as they can maintain and pay for it , Uptimes are function of how much you want to pay for maintenance to maintain a certain percentage of fighter air worthiness.

Didnt we singed a special deal for French Rafale where we are paying through our nose just to maintain 75 % uptimes of the fighter .....pay the Ruskies the same money and you can get similar uptime.

Austin ji,

By that corollary, they are also a function of the cost of maintenance and if the maintenance cost is too high vis a vis the cost of capital acquisition, for what is a relatively new aircraft, then it's the manufacturer and designer's fault, not the operators.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Aug 2018 13:24

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Austin wrote: They can have all the 14 flying or just 1 as long as they can maintain and pay for it , Uptimes are function of how much you want to pay for maintenance to maintain a certain percentage of fighter air worthiness.

Didnt we singed a special deal for French Rafale where we are paying through our nose just to maintain 75 % uptimes of the fighter .....pay the Ruskies the same money and you can get similar uptime.
Austin ji,

By that corollary, they are also a function of the cost of maintenance and if the maintenance cost is too high vis a vis the cost of capital acquisition, for what is a relatively new aircraft, then it's the manufacturer and designer's fault, not the operators.

Balasaar, where is the evidence to show that Russki gear is more expensive to maintain than western gear. Iirc roosI parts are cheaper, although probably with lower lifespans. Russian gear doesn't require the high tech facilities and a hangars to maintain performance either.

Point is how much does india or any country spend on western hardware vs russian hardware? Is there any data and apples to apples comparison?

As a rudimentary analysis how much would it cost india to buy, operate, upgrade and maintain a 60% availability of 250mki vs say 250 rafales or even mirages?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 02 Aug 2018 14:15

Markoji,

Firstly no Saar for me please!! Much too young for that, at least in my heart.

Secondly, I did not mention Russian in my post. It was a statement in general and not about any particular production philosophy.

Also I doubt any country will release the details of fleet wise maintenance costs since that information would indicate the state of the force's readiness and preparation and would be vital intelligence for the opponents. While an apple to apple comparison may not be possible, we can still do an empirical analysis.

Coming to your point on Russi maal being cheaper and having lower life span, it means that the bird is going to stay on the ground more frequently than a western origin one. The absolute amount of time may be the same for both the birds, but the frequency of this happening means that you have to ensure you have a larger inventory, which has its own attendant costs, along with more manpower and it's associated costs.
So in the long term the Russi maal may be just as costly as the western one or may be just marginally cheaper at best.

chola · Post by **chola** » 02 Aug 2018 14:57

This might give you an idea of the Malaysian perception of the difference between Russian and Western.

https://defence-blog.com/aviation/malay ... s.html/amp

Against the backdrop of problems with Russian fighters the RMAF is now seeking to expand its F-18 squadron by acquiring some second-hand F-18C/Ds.

Similar problems are constantly experienced by other operators of Russian combat aircraft.

In 2017, India has reported that it faced roadblocks to carrying out timely repair, overhaul and maintenance orders for the Su-30MKI fleet due to the poor supply of required spare parts.

According to the FlightGlobal, Algeria was even forced to return 12 MiG-29SMT fighters to Russia, after refusing to accept the aircraft amid allegations of poor manufacturing quality.

Repairs for Russkie gear is more frequent, spares are less available and after sales support more lacking. And all that on top of planes with lesser build quality and attention to detail to begin with.

That is the difference in a nutshell.

Malaysia (and Indonesia) diversified to Russian aircraft after 911 and the perception that the West was increasingly anti-muzzie. It is a traditional western AC user. This is not a nation that is too cheap to support its planes.

Expanding its old F-18 fleet with second-hand Hornets is indicative that Malaysia finds maintaining its Russian gear more problematic and more expensive.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Aug 2018 18:51

chola wrote:This might give you an idea of the Malaysian perception of the difference between Russian and Western.

https://defence-blog.com/aviation/malay ... s.html/amp
Against the backdrop of problems with Russian fighters the RMAF is now seeking to expand its F-18 squadron by acquiring some second-hand F-18C/Ds.

Similar problems are constantly experienced by other operators of Russian combat aircraft.

In 2017, India has reported that it faced roadblocks to carrying out timely repair, overhaul and maintenance orders for the Su-30MKI fleet due to the poor supply of required spare parts.

According to the FlightGlobal, Algeria was even forced to return 12 MiG-29SMT fighters to Russia, after refusing to accept the aircraft amid allegations of poor manufacturing quality.
Repairs for Russkie gear is more frequent, spares are less available and after sales support more lacking. And all that on top of planes with lesser build quality and attention to detail to begin with.

That is the difference in a nutshell.

Malaysia (and Indonesia) diversified to Russian aircraft after 911 and the perception that the West was increasingly anti-muzzie. It is a traditional western AC user. This is not a nation that is too cheap to support its planes.

Expanding its old F-18 fleet with second-hand Hornets is indicative that Malaysia finds maintaining its Russian gear more problematic and more expensive.

They have been planning to replace their Mig-29 with some western fighter for a decade now but they continue using the 29

All they do is operate 8 F-18 and Su/29 and chances are they will continue using it.

We have the same story with MKI before Parrikar came into the picture MKI availability was 55 % once money poured in and spares were procured and lead time was reduced the availability went up to 68 %

Check the statement from German Airforce Chief on Typhoon availability

Germany's air force is in dire straits and ... "The Luftwaffe is at a low point," Lieutenant General Ingo Gerhartz, who ... 39 of 128 Eurofighter jets were available for training and combat use last

That makes less than 30 % of Typhoon operational in German airforce beats even IAF MKI operational status during the worst days but that is not because Typhoon is a bad aircraft but they dont have enough funds to maintain

Pay through your nose with shit load of money like we do for French and American Aircraft with PBL types and get a fleet of not more than 2 squadron of aircraft or transport aircraft with high uptimes.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Aug 2018 18:52

Su-30 MKI Down Under ( Check the Video in the twitter )

https://twitter.com/Aus_AirForce/status ... 3515620353

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Aug 2018 19:36

Indian Air Force
‏
Verified account

@IAF_MCC https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1025015574919696385

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Aug 2018 06:59

Austin,

Please cleanup your post. No need for crass language. Can use a different word to convey same meaning.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Aug 2018 08:45

Bala Vignesh wrote:Markoji,

Firstly no Saar for me please!! Much too young for that, at least in my heart.

Secondly, I did not mention Russian in my post. It was a statement in general and not about any particular production philosophy.

Also I doubt any country will release the details of fleet wise maintenance costs since that information would indicate the state of the force's readiness and preparation and would be vital intelligence for the opponents. While an apple to apple comparison may not be possible, we can still do an empirical analysis.

Coming to your point on Russi maal being cheaper and having lower life span, it means that the bird is going to stay on the ground more frequently than a western origin one. The absolute amount of time may be the same for both the birds, but the frequency of this happening means that you have to ensure you have a larger inventory, which has its own attendant costs, along with more manpower and it's associated costs.
So in the long term the Russi maal may be just as costly as the western one or may be just marginally cheaper at best.

Balaji,

I see your point but I think Austin also raises s very important issue. Is India signing the same kinds of PBL agreements for Russian great as it does for Western maal. Also, are the differences in maintenance schedules large enough to make up for the rather large differences in procurement, weapons and upgrade costs?

From what I can gather based on the actions of the GOI so far is that Western equipment seems so inordinately expensive that it can never be afforded in the numbers that the forces desire, be it the m2k or the Rafale.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2018 12:47

Video: Exercise Pitch Black 2018: Indian Sukhoi Fighters Over Australia

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2018 16:21

IndianAirForce #Su30 MKI pictured on the flight line at RAAF Base Darwin, #Australia, today, during Exercise #PitchBlack2018.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2018 16:22

#PitchBlack2018 : During the Flying Integration Training, IAF contingent interacted with the Crew of French Air Force.
This International exercise contributes towards operational training of our crew & reinforces military cooperation with the participating friendly Nations.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2018 16:24

Indian Air Force
‏
Verified account

@IAF_MCC
Following Following @IAF_MCC
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#PictureOfTheDay : Main Phase of Ex. commenced on 06 Aug 18. This phase comprises of Large Force Engagement (LFE) missions.

The Team of engineers & maintenance crew are working Day & Night, ensuring flying machines are serviceable & mission capable at all times.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Aug 2018 22:31

Interesting detail about the IAF Su-30 deployment down under..

“During the flight from India to Australia and back, Su-30 MKI will carry out air to air refueling with IL-78 tankers,” the Indian MoD stated. “After completion of the exercise, on its return leg from Darwin to Subang, Su-30 MKI will be refueled in air for the first time by RAAF KC-30A.” The twin-seater, twin-engine Su-30MKI, developed by Russian aircraft maker Sukhoi and license-built in India, constitutes the backbone of the IAF’s fighter force.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/07/indias- ... -exercise/