Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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ramana
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

The point is Su-30MKIs assembled by HAL have fuel leaks and the designer ROE has said its due to unplanned loads which cuase the fittings to get lose.
Solution is to torque the fittings higher or add a seal to prevent the leaks.

Why are we discussing uncles and grandmas' planes here?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Are the fuel lines metallic or plastic hoses?
If the lines are metallic then it could be due to insufficient torque on the fuel hose fittings.
The vibration etc. could loosen the fittings and cause leakages.

One option is to use metallic copper conical seals in the fittings.
The copper seal gets deformed and acts like putty in the fittings and retains the torque.

If Indranil recalls one of the SP 5(?) from the small line had fuel leaks and could not be accepted till all leaks were fixed.
These critical fittings are usually were locked. Fuel lines are usually metallic and the newer ones are also flexible, also, most have a rubberized (?) type of fire inhibiting coating on them. I regret that I cannot recall the material now.

Fuel lines are always checked for leakage after fitment and most routine pre flight and post flight inspections will show evidence of a leak, in case of any fitment problems.

If any new type of seals etc are to be used, they first have to be tested and approved and often the manufacturer is involved in this process. It is a very long and tedious process.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by prasannasimha »

People here are mistaking the SR71's fuel leaks with other planes. That was by design as the plane expanded so much due to heating that it locked the leaking joints. Typically it had to be refueled immediately on launch. The leak was actually minimal. The plane actually expanded by several inches on heating to at high Mach numbers. These problems are in no way related to those problems we are discussing here
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

The fittings have a prescribed torque value developed from mfg recommendation and assembly testing.
Its possible the torque wrenches are out of calibration happens often.
Often the joints relax for various reasons.

And good idea to go back and check.

Environment loads could be higher - flying and tropical
So quite a few factors are there.

Bottom-line IAF is saying the fuel lines leak and HAL as the assembler needs to figure out a fix.
Wring hands and saying consulted the designer ROE wont be sufficient.
At a minimum contact a REC or NIIT /IIT and get a project going.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Mihir »

Karan M wrote:JayS, you'll find this interesting.
https://cag.gov.in/sites/default/files/ ... pter_9.pdf
Thanks for that link, Karan. I summarised some of its points in this twitter thread.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

Mihir that was a very good twitter thread on the SU-30 and HAL.

Also did you note original capacity for SU-30MKI was 8/year and then augmented to 12/year.

I think there is a cognitive dissonance in the Indian defence community.
The standard for aircraft is 8/year and if IAF screams they import the additional aircraft.
However in case of Tejas can't import.
Hence the second line and now calls for third line.

One possibility for IAF seeking imports is to hedge against HAL lack of meeting production targets for whatever reasons.

Also see the constant delay of constructions of facilities eg. TIG welding shop, machine shop and consequent cost escalation for the facility and HAL which has to import the parts. The welding shop is good example.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Mihir »

Thanks Ramana. Good point about the boost in capacity!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Vips »

First indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI handed over to IAF.

Marking a red-letter day for the 11 Base Repair Depot (BRD), Ojhar, the first indigenously overhauled Sukhoi Su-30MKI supersonic aircraft was handed over to the Operational Squadron of the Indian Air Force here on Friday.

Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Maintenance Command, formally handed over the gleaming overhauled Su-30MKI fighter aircraft to Air Marshal H.S. Arora, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, South Western Air Command at an impressive ceremony here.

The aircraft first took-off post-overhaul on April 24 and since then, it has been undergoing test flights (for six months!! :shock: ) before it was finally handed over to be inducted for operational tasks in a flying squadron.

"During the overhaul, the aircraft was stripped completely and rebuilt from scratch, replacing certain worn out parts/components. It has now become almost like a brand-new aircraft with its life-span doubled," a senior official said.

Established in April 1974, the 11 BRD, Ojhar, is the only fighter aircraft repair depot of the IAF and undertakes repairs, renovations and overhaul of frontline fighters like the MIG-29 and now the Su-30MKI.

The 11 BRD progressively built and improved upon the technical expertise and infrastructure over the years and by 1983, it had overhauled 100 Su-7 aircraft.

From 1983, it undertook the overhaul of 28 MIG-21 aircraft and later set up a facility in 1986 to overhaul MIG-23s of which 248 were overhauled till May 2015.

In 1996, the overhaul facility for MIG-29s was set up and presently the upgradation of these aircraft, besides repairs and overhaul of the Su-30MKI has also been taken up at the 11BRD.

Air Commmodore S.V. Borade, Officer Commanding, Air Force Station Ojhar, said that with this overhaul capability, the 11BRD has exhibited what the unit is capable of and is ever ready to tackle new challenges.

Besides 11BRD, HAL also overhauls and maintains the Su-30MKI, said an official.

The twin-finned, twin-jet multi-role Su-30MKI is capable of attaining speeds of Mach 2 (double the speed of sound or 2,120 kmph) at high altitudes and can carry guns, missiles, bombs, rockets and other weaponry.

The aircraft, developed by Russia, is now built at HAL under licence for the IAF since the past nearly two decades.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1055781084024225793 ----> Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command handed over the indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, AOC-in-C, South Western Air Command at Air Force Station, Ojhar today.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ArjunPandit »

ramana wrote: The standard for aircraft is 8/year
I've wondered for long why sir
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Kartik »

So Su-30MKIs can be overhauled at both HAL Nasik and 11 BRD Ojhar? I guess they've had to take up this overhaul work as a result of HAL not being able to overhaul the required numbers fast enough?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Vips »

Per news report post 2020, 30 MKI's will be overhauled every year. 20 at HAL and 10 at BRD.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

Kartik wrote:So Su-30MKIs can be overhauled at both HAL Nasik and 11 BRD Ojhar? I guess they've had to take up this overhaul work as a result of HAL not being able to overhaul the required numbers fast enough?
All millitaries look for flexibility. So having 2 overhaul facilities is good.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Yes it’s a positive thing BRD is already involved with mig-29upg upgrade and now with mki overhaul done it would speed up the over haul process , likely this may be a precauser to BRD getting involved with SuperMKI program to speed things up , HAL has been slow with overall MKI program
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Video Russian and Indian pilots prepare for playing out dogfights on @IAF_MCC's Su-30MKI aircraft and for other missions within the #Aviaindra2018 flight exercises

https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/1 ... 3559685120
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Via Air International Nov 2018 issue

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:The fittings have a prescribed torque value developed from mfg recommendation and assembly testing.
Its possible the torque wrenches are out of calibration happens often.
Often the joints relax for various reasons.

And good idea to go back and check.

Environment loads could be higher - flying and tropical
So quite a few factors are there.

Bottom-line IAF is saying the fuel lines leak and HAL as the assembler needs to figure out a fix.
Wring hands and saying consulted the designer ROE wont be sufficient.
At a minimum contact a REC or NIIT /IIT and get a project going.
Sorry, I seemed to have missed this post.

torque wrenches are critical items and are calibrated regularly and tested often for serviceability. It is not easy to find a torque wrench out of calibration in today's maintenance units.

That said, after torquing, there is invariably a wirelocking that is done to ensure that the set torque holds and no untoward movement of the locked nut takes place due to vibrations or temperature cycling.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:Yes it’s a positive thing BRD is already involved with mig-29upg upgrade and now with mki overhaul done it would speed up the over haul process , likely this may be a precauser to BRD getting involved with SuperMKI program to speed things up , HAL has been slow with overall MKI program
It is the inefficient logistics chain, that more often than not, which actually screws up the production timelines. There are many long lead time parts from the fatherland that just do not materialize in time. Supply chain dynamics simply cannot be predicted with any amount of certainty in the vast majority of these cases

This is a perennial problem both at the BRDs as well as HALs.

Often times, they will wait for an inbound aircraft coming for OH to cannibalize the part(s), obtain inspection and quality clearances, concession sign offs by designated authorities before the part can actually be used on the aircraft awaiting that/those parts.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by fanne »

With focus and leadership we have solved similar problem with Mig 29k, why not su30mki.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Philip »

It's why we read about logistic centres being set up locally for all 3 services by the OEMand desi partners for speedy delivery of spares, support,etc. reqd.
Dassault plans the same with its offsets.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Shrinivasan »

One thing I have noticed with MKIs is their build quality!! It seems to have improved significantly... smooth surfaces.., reduced patchwork’s... earlier birds seem to have so many patworks of materials... any thoughts on this... maybe my eyes... maybe the photography... but I feel build quality is awesome now.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1055781084024225793 ----> Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command handed over the indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, AOC-in-C, South Western Air Command at Air Force Station, Ojhar today.

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The ossified colonial treadtion of IAF continues, picture has no place for SNCO, JCO who did most of the work. I can only laugh at shaikh chillis :rotfl:
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by titash »

Haridas wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1055781084024225793 ----> Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command handed over the indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, AOC-in-C, South Western Air Command at Air Force Station, Ojhar today.

Image
The ossified colonial treadtion of IAF continues, picture has no place for SNCO, JCO who did most of the work. I can only laugh at shaikh chillis :rotfl:
Sirjee - that is a bit unfair and naive to say the least.

How many iPhones did the average abdul software engineer get to showcase on stage? If I recall correctly, Steve Jobs & Tim Cook do all the launching.

Likewise, all the photos for Indo-Russian agreements showcase politicos who can't speak Russian and English (or Hindi) respectively. The unnamed bureaucrats are nowhere in the spotlight.

It is the rule of the world - capitalist or communist.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Haridas »

^^^ Its not about others, its about us Bharatiyas and what we stand for.

Btw as against the negative role models you mention, there are many positive also to choose from, including many USAF pics.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9047261185 ---> Indian Air Force Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" air superiority fighter aircrafts perform an aerial refuelling.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Indian Government Justifies Higher Cost of Locally-Developed Su-30s
Subhash Bhamre, India's Minister of State for Defence, said on Wednesday that the foremost reason for the higher cost is that the specifications of the Russian SU-30 and indigenously manufactured SU-30MKI are not the same; hence, a one to one comparison of cost may not be appropriate.

"Additional modifications are incorporated in the indigenous Su-30MKI to enhance the operational capability and to suit Indian Air Force (IAF) requirements. Owing to the low volume of production of the Indian SU-30 MKI as compared to the —Russian SU-30, economies of scale come into play," Minister Subhash Bhamre argued while replying to a query raised by a fellow parliamentarian.

Bhamre added that being a Transfer of Technology (ToT) programme, the total cost also involves payment of license fee to the Russian side.

HAL imports raw materials and proprietary components from Russian firms and assembles them at its production facility in Nasik. HAL is presently assembling the last 23 Su-30MKI on order from the Ministry of Defence.

"Import of raw materials and proprietary components from Russia involves dependency on Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) for the offered kit costs, which are not proportionate with the kit contents," Bhamre added.

The Indian defence ministry has also argued that indigenous manufacturing will create advanced skill sets in the country, a step towards self-reliance.

"Indigenous manufacturing will result in a lower life cycle cost and reduced dependency on OEM on repair and maintenance and faster turn-around time and quick support to IAF bases," Minister Bhamre further added.

Last year, HAL had offered to produce 40 additional Su-30MKI for the IAF at much a much lower court, but India turned down the offer.

"Since the facilities are indigenously established, future production supplies are likely to be cheaper if a new order for bulk production is placed on HAL," Bhamre concluded.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

The minister does not differentiate between cost and price.
Cost is what the producer accumulates for the kit.
Price is what he sells for.
And also these two statments are contradictory
Last year, HAL had offered to produce 40 additional Su-30MKI for the IAF at much a much lower court, but India turned down the offer.

"Since the facilities are indigenously established, future production supplies are likely to be cheaper if a new order for bulk production is placed on HAL," Bhamre concluded.
Obviously he is unaware of the HAL offer being rejected when he makes his statement.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Ramana-ji, I think they are building the case for 40 more Rambhas. That second statement alludes to that or perhaps I am just reading too much into it. I hope they order two more Rambha squadrons.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

What was the HAL price for the new 40 Su-30MKIs?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

ramana wrote:What was the HAL price for the new 40 Su-30MKIs?
Ramana , HAL offered IAF 40 new MKI keeping cost constant or frozen cost as they say which is $61-62 USD Million per aircraft which is the price they are selling the IAF since early 2010.

So 40 MKI give and take will cost $2.5 Billion USD

Considering neither the IAF or HAL transacts in USD and recent agreement between India and Russia to transact all future defence deal in Rupee-Ruble onlee , You will have to convert $2.5 Billion USD into Rupee.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Aditya_V »

I think while MKI's are great they have high operational costs and we need to build new Hangers for such large birds, they bring a lot of capability but at a cost.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

IAF fighter jets to get superior shelters to protect them from Chinese bombs
https://theprint.in/security/iaf-fighte ... bs/173905/
The Modi government has allocated Rs 5,500 crore to build the Next Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelters (NGHAS) on India’s northern borders.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IndiaDefNetwork/sta ... 6351074304 ---> Given the fact that the exercise took place in Nellis AFB in Nevada and that base consists of US Air Warfare Center, 53d Test and Evaluation Group, 926th Wing and also a test and training range which are all said to operate the F-22 it's quite likely the picture is authentic.

The above tweet in response to below....

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1082497485484912642 ---> Su-30MKI with F-22 (when? Real photo?).Su-30MKI with Rafale. Su-30MKI with Typhoon. Su-30MKI with F/A-18. Besides it has flown with F-15 and F-16s too!

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

Rakesh your prayers for 40 more SU30 MKI could be answered.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... o-hal.html
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh your prayers for 40 more SU30 MKI could be answered.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... o-hal.html
YES!!!!

Beautiful!!!!! Thank you Ramana-ji for the good news. Reading through the article now. I have some comments and questions.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Amidst Spat, Elevated Chance Of IAF Su-30 Order To HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... o-hal.html
On the one hand, it would slow the depletion in the Indian Air Force’s fighter squadron strength — a chief worry for the IAF leadership.
In terms of numbers, 40 more Su-30MKIs are not going to change much. But numbers alone do not tell the whole story.

Think how much more capable 40 Su-30MKIs will add to the IAF's firepower versus a pair of MiG-21 Bison squadrons or the last two MiG-27UPG squadrons.
More visibly, though, it would alleviate the bruising political storm that has raged for months now with HAL, which license builds the Su-30 in western India, being held up by aggressive opposition parties as a company neglected and driven into the ground by the government in power. HAL will build and deliver the last of its ordered Su-30s this year. An order for 40 more jets would therefore keep a fully functioning production line buzzing for at least three more years.
A lifeline for HAL, even though HAL-built Rambhas cost more than Russian-built ones. Will also blunt (but not stop) the Congress Party's false narrative that the NDA Govt is taking away jobs from the youth of Karnataka and giving to Ambani and Adani! :roll:
To be sure, the Indian Air Force isn’t against the idea of 40 more Su-30 MKIs, which would take its fleet strength of the type to 312 aircraft. However, a section within the IAF has strongly held that the service needs to get larger numbers of lighter fighters that have less demands on serviceability and availability. This also ties in with the fact that the existing Su-30s are soon to be up for an extensive upgrade cycle that will make them more capable aircraft. Yet another section believes that the need of the hour is to double down and order at least an equal number of Rafale jets, instead of Su-30s, since they’re less demanding on maintenance and pilot resources.
And while I do not disagree with that argument, no new fighter is coming till post 2019 elections if not much later. Once the CAG report comes out and if the NDA Govt wins again in 2019, then I can see a glimmer of hope for a follow on order of the Rafale. And fighter retirements will occur regardless of elections. The IAF needs fighters now and the line needs to continue churning out fighters.

The below is a contradiction. Someone in the know, please advise. That does not make sense.
In a related development, with the Su-30 MKI production run in its final leg, HAL and its partners have only just mastered all phases of license production of the AL-31FP engine in Koraput, Odisha, including ‘Phase V’ which involves building brand new engines from raw materials, and not simply assembling them from parts. HAL has also additionally mastered the capital overhaul of AL-31FP engines and its aggregates locally, all of it still monitored though by a guarantee team from Russia.
Versus....
A senior HAL source said, “The licensed production of the Russian AL-31FP turbofan engines powering Su-30MKI multirole fighters at HAL’s engine division in Koraput is being successfully implemented in accordance with the contracts concluded earlier by Rosoboronexport. It’s a successful example of Make in India. AL-31FP engines are being manufactured and assembled from the kits delivered by the Ufa-based UEC-UMPO (producer of AL-31FP, part of UEC) production company.”
So is HAL building brand new engines from raw materials or is HAL building brand new engines from kits? Which is it?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Khalsa »

It's kits I am sure of that, else Kaveri would be here soon
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Rakesh wrote:The below is a contradiction. Someone in the know, please advise. That does not make sense.
In a related development, with the Su-30 MKI production run in its final leg, HAL and its partners have only just mastered all phases of license production of the AL-31FP engine in Koraput, Odisha, including ‘Phase V’ which involves building brand new engines from raw materials, and not simply assembling them from parts. HAL has also additionally mastered the capital overhaul of AL-31FP engines and its aggregates locally, all of it still monitored though by a guarantee team from Russia.
Versus....
A senior HAL source said, “The licensed production of the Russian AL-31FP turbofan engines powering Su-30MKI multirole fighters at HAL’s engine division in Koraput is being successfully implemented in accordance with the contracts concluded earlier by Rosoboronexport. It’s a successful example of Make in India. AL-31FP engines are being manufactured and assembled from the kits delivered by the Ufa-based UEC-UMPO (producer of AL-31FP, part of UEC) production company.”
So is HAL building brand new engines from raw materials or is HAL building brand new engines from kits? Which is it?
It’s locally sourced raw materials but the process , manufacturing machines etc are strictly applicable to Al-31FP engine plus the IPs are owned by Russians, much like Shakti engine even though it’s made here a good part of up is owned by Snecma or even the Jag engine from RR we make it here.

TOT and local manufacture is to make easily availability of spares overhaul and over time reduce cost of ownership for IAF and for industrials benefits, it is not to use those even if it’s possible on other programs like the process to make and machines to make RR Saturn Snecma or DRDO engine are not the same and likely won’t work if they try to cross pollinate it.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Philip »

In the overall context on increasing numbers and sqd. strength, additional MKIs are very welcome, esp. because indigenisation from raw material has - if the report about the engine is true, mastered even that aspect from desi raw m.

Using the same formula, for the lighter bird, a few more sqds. of MIG-29/35s were we're also doing the upgrades ourselves , even making the new engines here,for 1/4 the cost of upgrading an M2K, and should be seriously considered.The bird is being sold to Egypt from between just $30 to $40M for 29/35s.The cheapest and most cost effective option ( hopefully on costs) barring the LCA. 60 aircraft will cost around $2B only and along with the extra MKIs will add 100 frontline aircraft.With the entire Jag fleet being also upgraded, these decisions if taken could meet the interim fleet strengthening for at least 3 years.
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