Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50846
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 03 Oct 2018 19:55

The point is Su-30MKIs assembled by HAL have fuel leaks and the designer ROE has said its due to unplanned loads which cuase the fittings to get lose.
Solution is to torque the fittings higher or add a seal to prevent the leaks.

Why are we discussing uncles and grandmas' planes here?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17867
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 03 Oct 2018 21:11

ramana wrote:Are the fuel lines metallic or plastic hoses?
If the lines are metallic then it could be due to insufficient torque on the fuel hose fittings.
The vibration etc. could loosen the fittings and cause leakages.

One option is to use metallic copper conical seals in the fittings.
The copper seal gets deformed and acts like putty in the fittings and retains the torque.

If Indranil recalls one of the SP 5(?) from the small line had fuel leaks and could not be accepted till all leaks were fixed.


These critical fittings are usually were locked. Fuel lines are usually metallic and the newer ones are also flexible, also, most have a rubberized (?) type of fire inhibiting coating on them. I regret that I cannot recall the material now.

Fuel lines are always checked for leakage after fitment and most routine pre flight and post flight inspections will show evidence of a leak, in case of any fitment problems.

If any new type of seals etc are to be used, they first have to be tested and approved and often the manufacturer is involved in this process. It is a very long and tedious process.

prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 940
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby prasannasimha » 04 Oct 2018 00:00

People here are mistaking the SR71's fuel leaks with other planes. That was by design as the plane expanded so much due to heating that it locked the leaking joints. Typically it had to be refueled immediately on launch. The leak was actually minimal. The plane actually expanded by several inches on heating to at high Mach numbers. These problems are in no way related to those problems we are discussing here

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50846
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 04 Oct 2018 00:13

The fittings have a prescribed torque value developed from mfg recommendation and assembly testing.
Its possible the torque wrenches are out of calibration happens often.
Often the joints relax for various reasons.

And good idea to go back and check.

Environment loads could be higher - flying and tropical
So quite a few factors are there.

Bottom-line IAF is saying the fuel lines leak and HAL as the assembler needs to figure out a fix.
Wring hands and saying consulted the designer ROE wont be sufficient.
At a minimum contact a REC or NIIT /IIT and get a project going.

Mihir
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 864
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 21:26

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Mihir » 04 Oct 2018 18:58

Karan M wrote:JayS, you'll find this interesting.
https://cag.gov.in/sites/default/files/ ... pter_9.pdf


Thanks for that link, Karan. I summarised some of its points in this twitter thread.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50846
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 04 Oct 2018 19:18

Mihir that was a very good twitter thread on the SU-30 and HAL.

Also did you note original capacity for SU-30MKI was 8/year and then augmented to 12/year.

I think there is a cognitive dissonance in the Indian defence community.
The standard for aircraft is 8/year and if IAF screams they import the additional aircraft.
However in case of Tejas can't import.
Hence the second line and now calls for third line.

One possibility for IAF seeking imports is to hedge against HAL lack of meeting production targets for whatever reasons.

Also see the constant delay of constructions of facilities eg. TIG welding shop, machine shop and consequent cost escalation for the facility and HAL which has to import the parts. The welding shop is good example.

Mihir
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 864
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 21:26

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Mihir » 04 Oct 2018 23:22

Thanks Ramana. Good point about the boost in capacity!

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1364
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vips » 26 Oct 2018 18:37

First indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI handed over to IAF.

Marking a red-letter day for the 11 Base Repair Depot (BRD), Ojhar, the first indigenously overhauled Sukhoi Su-30MKI supersonic aircraft was handed over to the Operational Squadron of the Indian Air Force here on Friday.

Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Maintenance Command, formally handed over the gleaming overhauled Su-30MKI fighter aircraft to Air Marshal H.S. Arora, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, South Western Air Command at an impressive ceremony here.

The aircraft first took-off post-overhaul on April 24 and since then, it has been undergoing test flights (for six months!! :shock: ) before it was finally handed over to be inducted for operational tasks in a flying squadron.

"During the overhaul, the aircraft was stripped completely and rebuilt from scratch, replacing certain worn out parts/components. It has now become almost like a brand-new aircraft with its life-span doubled," a senior official said.

Established in April 1974, the 11 BRD, Ojhar, is the only fighter aircraft repair depot of the IAF and undertakes repairs, renovations and overhaul of frontline fighters like the MIG-29 and now the Su-30MKI.

The 11 BRD progressively built and improved upon the technical expertise and infrastructure over the years and by 1983, it had overhauled 100 Su-7 aircraft.

From 1983, it undertook the overhaul of 28 MIG-21 aircraft and later set up a facility in 1986 to overhaul MIG-23s of which 248 were overhauled till May 2015.

In 1996, the overhaul facility for MIG-29s was set up and presently the upgradation of these aircraft, besides repairs and overhaul of the Su-30MKI has also been taken up at the 11BRD.

Air Commmodore S.V. Borade, Officer Commanding, Air Force Station Ojhar, said that with this overhaul capability, the 11BRD has exhibited what the unit is capable of and is ever ready to tackle new challenges.

Besides 11BRD, HAL also overhauls and maintains the Su-30MKI, said an official.

The twin-finned, twin-jet multi-role Su-30MKI is capable of attaining speeds of Mach 2 (double the speed of sound or 2,120 kmph) at high altitudes and can carry guns, missiles, bombs, rockets and other weaponry.

The aircraft, developed by Russia, is now built at HAL under licence for the IAF since the past nearly two decades.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6185
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 26 Oct 2018 22:29

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1055781084024225793 ----> Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command handed over the indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, AOC-in-C, South Western Air Command at Air Force Station, Ojhar today.

Image

Image

Image

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1584
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Oct 2018 22:54

ramana wrote:The standard for aircraft is 8/year
I've wondered for long why sir

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4007
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 27 Oct 2018 03:30

So Su-30MKIs can be overhauled at both HAL Nasik and 11 BRD Ojhar? I guess they've had to take up this overhaul work as a result of HAL not being able to overhaul the required numbers fast enough?

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1364
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vips » 27 Oct 2018 03:56

Per news report post 2020, 30 MKI's will be overhauled every year. 20 at HAL and 10 at BRD.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50846
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 27 Oct 2018 04:41

Kartik wrote:So Su-30MKIs can be overhauled at both HAL Nasik and 11 BRD Ojhar? I guess they've had to take up this overhaul work as a result of HAL not being able to overhaul the required numbers fast enough?


All millitaries look for flexibility. So having 2 overhaul facilities is good.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22297
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Oct 2018 08:06

Yes it’s a positive thing BRD is already involved with mig-29upg upgrade and now with mki overhaul done it would speed up the over haul process , likely this may be a precauser to BRD getting involved with SuperMKI program to speed things up , HAL has been slow with overall MKI program

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22297
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 20 Dec 2018 17:57

Video Russian and Indian pilots prepare for playing out dogfights on @IAF_MCC's Su-30MKI aircraft and for other missions within the #Aviaindra2018 flight exercises

https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/1 ... 3559685120

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22297
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 23 Dec 2018 11:10

Via Air International Nov 2018 issue

Image
Image
Image
Image

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17867
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 23 Dec 2018 21:22

ramana wrote:The fittings have a prescribed torque value developed from mfg recommendation and assembly testing.
Its possible the torque wrenches are out of calibration happens often.
Often the joints relax for various reasons.

And good idea to go back and check.

Environment loads could be higher - flying and tropical
So quite a few factors are there.

Bottom-line IAF is saying the fuel lines leak and HAL as the assembler needs to figure out a fix.
Wring hands and saying consulted the designer ROE wont be sufficient.
At a minimum contact a REC or NIIT /IIT and get a project going.


Sorry, I seemed to have missed this post.

torque wrenches are critical items and are calibrated regularly and tested often for serviceability. It is not easy to find a torque wrench out of calibration in today's maintenance units.

That said, after torquing, there is invariably a wirelocking that is done to ensure that the set torque holds and no untoward movement of the locked nut takes place due to vibrations or temperature cycling.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17867
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 23 Dec 2018 21:35

Austin wrote:Yes it’s a positive thing BRD is already involved with mig-29upg upgrade and now with mki overhaul done it would speed up the over haul process , likely this may be a precauser to BRD getting involved with SuperMKI program to speed things up , HAL has been slow with overall MKI program


It is the inefficient logistics chain, that more often than not, which actually screws up the production timelines. There are many long lead time parts from the fatherland that just do not materialize in time. Supply chain dynamics simply cannot be predicted with any amount of certainty in the vast majority of these cases

This is a perennial problem both at the BRDs as well as HALs.

Often times, they will wait for an inbound aircraft coming for OH to cannibalize the part(s), obtain inspection and quality clearances, concession sign offs by designated authorities before the part can actually be used on the aircraft awaiting that/those parts.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2777
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby fanne » 24 Dec 2018 04:57

With focus and leadership we have solved similar problem with Mig 29k, why not su30mki.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19679
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 24 Dec 2018 08:49

It's why we read about logistic centres being set up locally for all 3 services by the OEMand desi partners for speedy delivery of spares, support,etc. reqd.
Dassault plans the same with its offsets.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6185
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 29 Dec 2018 06:01


Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2195
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 30 Dec 2018 00:35

One thing I have noticed with MKIs is their build quality!! It seems to have improved significantly... smooth surfaces.., reduced patchwork’s... earlier birds seem to have so many patworks of materials... any thoughts on this... maybe my eyes... maybe the photography... but I feel build quality is awesome now.

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 392
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Haridas » 30 Dec 2018 23:28

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1055781084024225793 ----> Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command handed over the indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, AOC-in-C, South Western Air Command at Air Force Station, Ojhar today.

Image

The ossified colonial treadtion of IAF continues, picture has no place for SNCO, JCO who did most of the work. I can only laugh at shaikh chillis :rotfl:

titash
BRFite
Posts: 321
Joined: 26 Aug 2011 18:44

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby titash » 31 Dec 2018 01:40

Haridas wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1055781084024225793 ----> Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command handed over the indigenously overhauled Su-30MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, AOC-in-C, South Western Air Command at Air Force Station, Ojhar today.

Image

The ossified colonial treadtion of IAF continues, picture has no place for SNCO, JCO who did most of the work. I can only laugh at shaikh chillis :rotfl:


Sirjee - that is a bit unfair and naive to say the least.

How many iPhones did the average abdul software engineer get to showcase on stage? If I recall correctly, Steve Jobs & Tim Cook do all the launching.

Likewise, all the photos for Indo-Russian agreements showcase politicos who can't speak Russian and English (or Hindi) respectively. The unnamed bureaucrats are nowhere in the spotlight.

It is the rule of the world - capitalist or communist.

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 392
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Haridas » 31 Dec 2018 10:39

^^^ Its not about others, its about us Bharatiyas and what we stand for.

Btw as against the negative role models you mention, there are many positive also to choose from, including many USAF pics.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6185
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 01 Jan 2019 05:06

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9047261185 ---> Indian Air Force Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" air superiority fighter aircrafts perform an aerial refuelling.

Image

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22297
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 02 Jan 2019 22:01

Indian Government Justifies Higher Cost of Locally-Developed Su-30s

Subhash Bhamre, India's Minister of State for Defence, said on Wednesday that the foremost reason for the higher cost is that the specifications of the Russian SU-30 and indigenously manufactured SU-30MKI are not the same; hence, a one to one comparison of cost may not be appropriate.

"Additional modifications are incorporated in the indigenous Su-30MKI to enhance the operational capability and to suit Indian Air Force (IAF) requirements. Owing to the low volume of production of the Indian SU-30 MKI as compared to the —Russian SU-30, economies of scale come into play," Minister Subhash Bhamre argued while replying to a query raised by a fellow parliamentarian.

Bhamre added that being a Transfer of Technology (ToT) programme, the total cost also involves payment of license fee to the Russian side.

HAL imports raw materials and proprietary components from Russian firms and assembles them at its production facility in Nasik. HAL is presently assembling the last 23 Su-30MKI on order from the Ministry of Defence.

"Import of raw materials and proprietary components from Russia involves dependency on Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) for the offered kit costs, which are not proportionate with the kit contents," Bhamre added.

The Indian defence ministry has also argued that indigenous manufacturing will create advanced skill sets in the country, a step towards self-reliance.

"Indigenous manufacturing will result in a lower life cycle cost and reduced dependency on OEM on repair and maintenance and faster turn-around time and quick support to IAF bases," Minister Bhamre further added.

Last year, HAL had offered to produce 40 additional Su-30MKI for the IAF at much a much lower court, but India turned down the offer.

"Since the facilities are indigenously established, future production supplies are likely to be cheaper if a new order for bulk production is placed on HAL," Bhamre concluded.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50846
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 02 Jan 2019 22:36

The minister does not differentiate between cost and price.
Cost is what the producer accumulates for the kit.
Price is what he sells for.
And also these two statments are contradictory

Last year, HAL had offered to produce 40 additional Su-30MKI for the IAF at much a much lower court, but India turned down the offer.

"Since the facilities are indigenously established, future production supplies are likely to be cheaper if a new order for bulk production is placed on HAL," Bhamre concluded.


Obviously he is unaware of the HAL offer being rejected when he makes his statement.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6185
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 00:45

Ramana-ji, I think they are building the case for 40 more Rambhas. That second statement alludes to that or perhaps I am just reading too much into it. I hope they order two more Rambha squadrons.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50846
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2019 02:37

What was the HAL price for the new 40 Su-30MKIs?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22297
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2019 11:33

ramana wrote:What was the HAL price for the new 40 Su-30MKIs?


Ramana , HAL offered IAF 40 new MKI keeping cost constant or frozen cost as they say which is $61-62 USD Million per aircraft which is the price they are selling the IAF since early 2010.

So 40 MKI give and take will cost $2.5 Billion USD

Considering neither the IAF or HAL transacts in USD and recent agreement between India and Russia to transact all future defence deal in Rupee-Ruble onlee , You will have to convert $2.5 Billion USD into Rupee.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9918
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2019 14:12

I think while MKI's are great they have high operational costs and we need to build new Hangers for such large birds, they bring a lot of capability but at a cost.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6185
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2019 04:42

IAF fighter jets to get superior shelters to protect them from Chinese bombs
https://theprint.in/security/iaf-fighte ... bs/173905/

The Modi government has allocated Rs 5,500 crore to build the Next Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelters (NGHAS) on India’s northern borders.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6185
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2019 23:57

https://twitter.com/IndiaDefNetwork/sta ... 6351074304 ---> Given the fact that the exercise took place in Nellis AFB in Nevada and that base consists of US Air Warfare Center, 53d Test and Evaluation Group, 926th Wing and also a test and training range which are all said to operate the F-22 it's quite likely the picture is authentic.

The above tweet in response to below....

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1082497485484912642 ---> Su-30MKI with F-22 (when? Real photo?).Su-30MKI with Rafale. Su-30MKI with Typhoon. Su-30MKI with F/A-18. Besides it has flown with F-15 and F-16s too!

Image

Image

Image

Image


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: adityadange, K_Rohit, Kritavarman, PratikDas, SriniY and 77 guests