Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 15 Apr 2019 05:56

The Meteor is in theory an improvement over the AMRAAM-D which was the previous (some would argue still is) state of the art, but despite the hype it isn't easy for it or any missile to chase down and eliminate a fast receding target with a good probability of success. And neither of those missiles are available for the Russian platforms anyway, and the Russian vaporware about long range missiles in development is of little practical use to us, so this is probably moot anyway till the Astra v2 hopefully with SFDR is available. That would be a fantastic addition, but is still some way off, and long distance kills against a receding target are still going to be challenging even with such a missile available.

Probably better jamming is within reach for the short term at least.

Probably the biggest favour can be done to the IAF is not in the areas of technology but in unshackling them from restrictive ROE and similar hassles that disadvantage us when dealing with an irrational and suicidal foe.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2019 07:21

fanne wrote:I agree, and perhaps mine is badly worded sentence. But what if it could have achieved the following - somehow prevented f-16 from getting a clean and continuous lock on itself (Rafael with spectra canperhaps, sukhois with some super duper ecm - maybe from the su35 program or wherever). After being fired upon and taking evasive action, acquired lock on pad f16 and shot a meteor like missile, you may have multiple f-16s down. Or perhaps like Kargil paf would have just sucked it up.
We need the sukhois at this level. It needs some very quick upgradation. Maybe just the aa missile for now

Fanne, you are completely mistaken.

There is no integral ECM package with 360 degrees coverage on most air to air fighters today.

They are all front and aft sectors, ignoring flanks and above and directly below the aircraft. For those situations, you have chaff to break seeker lock. Same issue for Rafale as well.

If fighters attack you from a height differential, or even from the flanks or even from directly below, there is no special ECM that can fix this.

Reason being fighters have to prioritize power coverage, antenna disbursed, thermal management. You cant have multiple antenna doing so today on a volume limited fighter without tradeoffs. Just look at what happened to IAFs ask for 360 degree radar on FGFA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Apr 2019 09:28

Upgrades in development/progress for Su30 fleet:
Digital RWR
SPJ pods
SD radios plus datalink
IRST (program recently sanctioned, so quote some time away)

Munitions in development/being integrated
SAAW
Garuda/Garuthma glide bombs (30/100km range)
NGARM
Spice 2000
Brahmos
Air Launched Article
Nirbhay
Astra Mk1 (if series production is started)
ASRAAM

Proposed
Israeli items like I Derby ER

Items likely awaiting clearance for integration
New cockpit display architecture developed at ADE
New mission computers
DC MAWS

Big ticket items for which we have to look abroad
New radars/radar upgrades
New engines

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2019 10:17

we should mass produce the astra mk1 as the seeker and eccm can be kept on improving and this production will establish the capacity and permit retirement of older lots of AAM.

there is no guarantee on how quickly astra mk2 will be done - has not even started yet and could easily take 5-7 years even if all goes well unlike astra1 which required the whole airframe to be changed. we are entering more new ground with mk2.

sitting on our hands will only permit more import-sifarish lobby to import from micas, r77-xx etc. this is money better spent on the comparable astra mk1.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 22 Apr 2019 10:17

^^^
We are also developing our own IRST for MKI correct?

I hope we use uttam for MKI also, I'm betting the Russian are going to fall behind us in electronics in the near future.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Apr 2019 10:54

Singha agree completely. Each and every word.

Abhik, good point, I had forgotten. Not sure though project has been started at DRDO yet.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Apr 2019 12:37

Singha wrote:we should mass produce the astra mk1 as the seeker and eccm can be kept on improving and this production will establish the capacity and permit retirement of older lots of AAM.

there is no guarantee on how quickly astra mk2 will be done - has not even started yet and could easily take 5-7 years even if all goes well unlike astra1 which required the whole airframe to be changed. we are entering more new ground with mk2.

Work on MK2 is already underway. The dual pulse motor is already realised, we were told in AI2019.

Note that while MK1 has max range at altitude of 100km, MK2 will be have max range of 110km. But due to its dual pulse motor its endgame kinematics will be superior, which will significantly larger NEZ compared to MK1.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Apr 2019 22:50

Karan M wrote:Upgrades in development/progress for Su30 fleet:
Digital RWR
SPJ pods
SD radios plus datalink
IRST (program recently sanctioned, so quote some time away)

Munitions in development/being integrated
SAAW
Garuda/Garuthma glide bombs (30/100km range)
NGARM
Spice 2000
Brahmos
Air Launched Article
Nirbhay
Astra Mk1 (if series production is started)
ASRAAM

Proposed
Israeli items like I Derby ER

Items likely awaiting clearance for integration
New cockpit display architecture developed at ADE
New mission computers
DC MAWS

Big ticket items for which we have to look abroad
New radars/radar upgrades
New engines

Will they be able to integrate derby I on bars radar?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Apr 2019 23:40

Karan, the SD radio plus DL, any details available ? BW etc, will this be the IAF standard ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2019 00:19

Cain, as things have cooled down.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-438514/

According to the marketing manager of Rafael’s air superiority systems division..

He said that while the earlier version of the I-Derby is already carried by the Indian air force's LCA and Sukhoi Su-30, an effort is being made to allow the integration of the I-Derby ER on these aircraft.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2019 00:22

Rahul M wrote:Karan, the SD radio plus DL, any details available ? BW etc, will this be the IAF standard ?

We have chosen BNET AIRBORNE as our initial SDR. 400 odd units to be split between air and ground.
http://www.rafael.co.il/5635-1096-en/Marketing.aspx

ODL will sit on top of this..and is yet to be developed, pilot project underway. Another victim of UPA.

3000 units to follow either BNET or another.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 24 Apr 2019 00:23

Rahul M wrote:Karan, the SD radio plus DL, any details available ? BW etc, will this be the IAF standard ?

Next round SDR "will be fully desi".

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2019 01:06

The HAL project I presume. Any idea of its progress?

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 24 Apr 2019 01:40

here is EOI for proposed IRST http://makeinindiadefence.gov.in/projec ... ctlist/2/1
Approximately will take 4+ years.
At the moment the EOI's are being evaluated from the last update on the site.

Interesting that there are plans for ASPJ, mostly for the Su?
Also feasibility studies wrt OBOGS for the Su30.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2019 07:47

Both IRST and ASPJ are being sourced locally.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02 ... 30mki.html

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Apr 2019 10:46

Cain Marko wrote:Will they be able to integrate derby I on bars radar?

The Russians gave us Bars source code in the late 90's/early 00's. This was before capitalism corrupted them. So Derby or Astra or ASRAAM or Meteor or SFDR can be easily integrated. While Derby has been integrated on Su-30, it hasnt been ordered in quantity for either Tejas or Su-30.

Indian Air Force has already ordered 200 BrahMos missiles for the last 40 orders placed in 2012. BrahMos A requires only carriage and drop trials as rest of missile features - propulsion, control & targeting have been exhaustively tested over multiple firings.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2019 11:40

We received integration data for the Bars for sure.
Weapons orders between India and Israel are heavily blacked out, wont be surprised if we do have some Derbys beyond those in SpyDer.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2019 11:59

the FDL for IAF fighters similar to link16 was first mooted around 2000. 18 years later, after 2 UPA regimes shrank these proposals to nothing, we are finally gaining some steam at end of a NDA govt.

unless we get NDA for another 20 years back to back, we can kiss our P3 chances goodbye right now.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 25 Apr 2019 08:24

Didn't we use Elta 8222 pod for EW on MKI ?

Any idea how does our ASJP compares Self-Protection, Active Phased Array Jammer Pod ELL-8222SB http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/9/43029.pdf ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Apr 2019 08:49

We have moved to SAP518.

It's very heavy which is a problem for heavily loaded strike missions (as versus light A2A,loadouts) so we are developing our own AESA units.

SAP518 has been inducted for Russian AF Su30 SMs and RMAF Su30 MKMs.
http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... ience.html
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02 ... 30mki.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2019 20:25

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2019 20:29

Apart from the SAP518s, the Su-30 seems to be carrying AAMs under the wing and fuselage.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2019 21:58

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... -dna-45897

The National Interest
February 28, 2019

How Russia Wants to Transform Its Deadly Su-30 (Thanks to Some Su-35 'DNA')

The Su-30 could benefit from many of the systems that manufacturer Sukhoi developed for the newer Su-35.
by David Axe Follow @daxe on Twitter L

The Russian military wants to improve the Su-30 fighter to the Su-30SM standard in the hope of selling upgrades to India.

The Su-30 could benefit from many of the systems that manufacturer Sukhoi developed for the newer Su-35.

"After completing the work on the Su-30SM upgrade, changing the layout of the onboard radio-electronic equipment to make the Su-35 and the Su-30SM more standardized and thus cut the cost price and standardizing the airborne weapon systems, this may breathe a new life into the plane," Russian deputy prime minister Yuri Borisov told reporters on Feb. 26, 2019, according to state media.

The Su-30, a derivative of the 1970s-vintage Su-27, first flew in 1989. Where the Su-27 is a single-seat air-superiority fighter, the two-seat Su-30 is a multi-role fighter that can carry air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry. The Su-30 is distinctive for its forward-mounted canard winglets.

The Su-35 is a single-seat Su-27 variant that first flew in 2008. Russia, China and Indonesia are acquiring the Su-35.

Sukhoi has built more than 600 Su-30s. They're in service in Russia and around the world. India possesses one of the largest Su-30 fleets. "Considering that there are about 200 [Su-30s] in India, an opportunity will probably open for modernizing this fleet to prolong its service life," Borisov explained.

The Indian air force is spending billions of dollars to modernize and expand its fighter fleet.

In 2018 the Indian air force operated 244 1960s-vintage MiG-21s and 84 MiG-27s that are only slightly younger. The old fighters fly alongside 130 European-designed Jaguars, 57 French Mirage 2000s, 66 Russian MiG-29s and 198 Su-30s and a handful of India's own indigenous Tejas fighters.

New Delhi also is buying 36 French Rafales to add to what American plane-maker Lockheed Martin has described as "the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem."

New Delhi has a short-term requirement for 115 new fighters. Candidate types include a new version of the F-16 that Lockheed calls the "F-21" plus Boeing's F/A-18E/F, the Rafale, the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E and the Russian MiG-35 and Su-35. Indian companies would assemble the new jets on license.

A brief but violent air war over disputed Kashmir in February 2019 could compel India to double down on its modernization efforts. On Feb. 26, Indian planes crossed the line of control at India's border with Pakistan and bombed what New Dehli described as a terrorist training camp near Balakot.

Indian media reported that as many as a dozen Mirage 2000s took part in the mission alongside one of India's EMB-145 airborne early-warning aircraft, an Il-78 aerial tanker and at least one Israeli-made Heron drone.

On Feb. 27, 2019, Pakistani F-16s crossed the line of control to attack Indian forces, New Delhi claimed.

Indian MiG-21s intercepted the F-16s and shot down one of them, killing its pilot, according to the Indian government. Islamabad claimed its forces shot down two MiG-21s, but New Delhi copped to losing just one jet. Imagery of the Pakistani F-16's wreckage has played across Indian media, perhaps complicating Lockheed's efforts to sell India the F-21.

Russia's own defense spending is declining amid a wider economic slump. Sukhoi and other companies should look to foreign markets to make up for slipping domestic spending, Borisov said. "It is necessary to move towards diversification and towards gaining foothold on the civil market."

As part of the Su-30SM upgrade, older fighters would get the same AL-41F-1S thrust-vectoring engines that propel the Su-35 as well as the type’s more-powerful radar. “The upgrade will boost the fighter’s combat capabilities: it will increase the range of detecting and identifying air targets and furnish the plane with new precision weapons to hit air, ground and sea targets at a range of several hundred kilometers,” Russian state media reported.

State media claimed the modernized Su-30SM would conduct flight trials before the end of 2019. India could select a new fighter around the same time. If it picks the Su-35 and also opts to modernize its Su-30s, a pair of similar Sukhois could become New Delhi's most important warplanes.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Apr 2019 06:44

Karan M wrote:

Mki escorting Netra? Interesting picture in so many ways. Good stuff!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Apr 2019 11:12

I think it's the Embraer biz jets part of the IAFs comms flight.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 May 2019 15:45

Vishnu Som reporting that IAF is interested in IDerby for the MKI..

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgun ... ome-livetv

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 May 2019 15:53

Derby ER..the poor mans Meteor !!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2019 16:08

^^And PAF gets AMRAAM D and then...

Meanwhile, Astra tied up beside cowshed, barking away to get masters attention.

titash · Post by **titash** » 28 May 2019 20:16

why not just put a big-ass booster on the Astra/R-77? Make it a longer ranged 2-stage weapon. Its not like the Su-30 lacks load carrying ability. These would be fired off at extreme range before the WVR merge.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 May 2019 20:31

Karan M wrote:^^And PAF gets AMRAAM D and then...

then we get Meteor !! what else and the game continues

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2019 21:14

No Meteor on Su-30.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 May 2019 21:17

i meant meteor in the inventory..not on SU 30

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 May 2019 21:18

imagine su 30 being escorted by rafale or vice versa?? !!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2019 22:39

With 270 Su30s in inventory, we have to fix that first and foremost and ensure they remain at cutting edge as versus always buying some new fighter, in 20, 30 units. IMHO, only Parrikar sir understood this basic truth and focused on the Su30 fleet first. This Derby ER purchase, sorry to say is a band aid. We need to do more with the upgrade.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2019 04:01

Karan M wrote:With 270 Su30s in inventory, we have to fix that first and foremost and ensure they remain at cutting edge as versus always buying some new fighter, in 20, 30 units. IMHO, only Parrikar sir understood this basic truth and focused on the Su30 fleet first. This Derby ER purchase, sorry to say is a band aid. We need to do more with the upgrade.

It wont happen.
astra and follow on.
some arms peddler is pushing via Som ras

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 May 2019 13:15

Karan M wrote:With 270 Su30s in inventory, we have to fix that first and foremost and ensure they remain at cutting edge as versus always buying some new fighter, in 20, 30 units. IMHO, only Parrikar sir understood this basic truth and focused on the Su30 fleet first. This Derby ER purchase, sorry to say is a band aid. We need to do more with the upgrade.

Past Indian defense procurement strategy has tended to be reactionary in nature.

F-104 -> MiG-21
F-16 -> MiG-23, Mirage-2000, MiG-29
T-80 -> T-90S

Etc

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2019 15:06

True.

Also, the fact no Su-30 upgrade has been mentioned till now (though I'd have loved for it to) indicates IAF is happy with its current radar, overall performance and what's on the roadmap (DARE Jammer, Dhruti DR118, MAWS). Looks like they are happy with adding more "teeth" - Derby ER, Brahmos, Spice 2000 and the new SDRs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2019 21:43

KaranM, Add IGB 500 kg.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 30 May 2019 04:01

Karan M wrote:With 270 Su30s in inventory, we have to fix that first and foremost and ensure they remain at cutting edge as versus always buying some new fighter, in 20, 30 units. IMHO, only Parrikar sir understood this basic truth and focused on the Su30 fleet first. This Derby ER purchase, sorry to say is a band aid. We need to do more with the upgrade.

As per r he plan, our aircraft manufacturing plants of HAL are expected to work on SU 30 upgrade once the manufacturing of SU30 is completed.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 30 May 2019 16:25

I think the plan is to have a deep overhaul and not an upgrade once mfg is completed.
But hey.... a good time to boost up and perhaps upgrade