Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Thakur_B
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 16 Sep 2020 07:50

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1305743980018180096?s=20 ---> Garuthmaa guided glide bomb with 100 km range has been successfully integrated with IAF's Su-30MKIs, thus enhancing the jet's SOW (Stand-Off Weapon) capabilities significantly. New jam proof SDRs (BNET-AR) for secure communications and data linking have also been integrated onboard Su-30MKIs.

Will the ODL implementation be through these SDRs? Seems unlikely.
Last edited by Rakesh on 16 Sep 2020 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please do not repost the pictures in your reply. Thank You.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 16 Sep 2020 16:41

Yes it will be. That was the plan anyhow. A pilot project is underway.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 17 Sep 2020 07:00

Ok, thanks. Will this be compatible with IN link2?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Sumeet » 17 Sep 2020 09:08

So in the news its mentioned they are getting HMD ? I thought those were anyways integrated in MKI. Any one knows which HMD are those -- Elbit Systems Targo 2 ?

Hope these BNET+ SDR from Astra-Rafael system also enable better integration with Phalcon AWACS. On that note they should also go ahead and add SatCom to MKI (for example: https://www.iai.co.il/p/elk-1882-nc2 ELK-1882 NC2 Global Internetwork Communication Grid)

@karan what is the timeline for ODL project ? It has been in talks since 2009 when IAI/Elta bagged the project and now we are in 2020 still no results. I wonder what is going on. What is the cause of delay -- babus, MoF, MoD, IAF, PSUs or all of them ?

https://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_sp ... tract.html

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 17 Sep 2020 22:14

Sumeet wrote:So in the news its mentioned they are getting HMD ? I thought those were anyways integrated in MKI. Any one knows which HMD are those -- Elbit Systems Targo 2 ?

MKI has the old Sura-K HMS which it came with. This is a basic system useful for off-boresight shots using the R-73 and little else. It has been long superseded by more modern HMDS systems like the DASH (used on the Tejas and M2k), Thales TopOwl/TopSight (used on our Mig-29s - IN and IAF Upgrade) and the JHMCS (used by the pakis on their F-16's). These systems show a lot more information to the pilot than the old Russian systems. The MKI is overdue for an upgrade (for a lot of things). Sura-K is also used on the Bisons but they are on their way out and don't need new ones.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 21 Sep 2020 15:46

Twitter link

Gorgeous shot!

Image

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Sep 2020 16:40

Unusual payload, just bombs and no AAM- even the Mig 29 landing at Leh was without armament. this looks like a Bombing run on the Test range. Wonder if IAF is husbanding AAM life for when things get hot with either the Pakis or the Chinis.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby rkhanna » 21 Sep 2020 20:16

Aditya_V wrote:Unusual payload, just bombs and no AAM- even the Mig 29 landing at Leh was without armament. this looks like a Bombing run on the Test range. Wonder if IAF is husbanding AAM life for when things get hot with either the Pakis or the Chinis.


Could be part of a more complex mix of AC trying out different tactics ?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby rpartha » 22 Sep 2020 00:33

Where is this taken? So beautiful...

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 22 Sep 2020 00:44

Looks like Jodhpur, Rajasthan. But I could be wrong. Happy to be corrected.

I believe No 31 Lions Squadron is based there. They operate the Rambha.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby V_Raman » 22 Sep 2020 00:46

photoshopped background i think - looks like baahubali palace :D

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 22 Sep 2020 01:18

V_Raman wrote:photoshopped background i think - looks like baahubali palace :D


Rakesh wrote:Looks like Jodhpur, Rajasthan. But I could be wrong. Happy to be corrected.

I believe No 31 Lions Squadron is based there. They operate the Rambha.



Yes. That's Jodhpur's Umaid Bhavan Palace in the background. Not photoshopped. That palace is a hotel now. You can actually live there if you wish.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Anshuman.Kumar » 22 Sep 2020 01:19

What is the status of The deal to procure 12 MKIs and 21 Mig29.
Two visits of Moscow done by RNS

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 22 Sep 2020 01:21

Aditya_V wrote:Unusual payload, just bombs and no AAM- even the Mig 29 landing at Leh was without armament. this looks like a Bombing run on the Test range. Wonder if IAF is husbanding AAM life for when things get hot with either the Pakis or the Chinis.

Aircraft from Jodhpur are unlikely to be involved in operational flying in Ladakh. Also, we don't know when this pic was taken. Might be from back during Gagan Shakti or some other firepower demo or just a training sortie.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 22 Sep 2020 01:44

Anshuman.Kumar wrote:What is the status of The deal to procure 12 MKIs and 21 Mig29.
Two visits of Moscow done by RNS

Deal signed and done. They will arrive in a few years.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 22 Sep 2020 01:56

Rakesh wrote:
Anshuman.Kumar wrote:What is the status of The deal to procure 12 MKIs and 21 Mig29.
Two visits of Moscow done by RNS

Deal signed and done. They will arrive in a few years.

I must have missed that. I thought only DAC clearance was obtained. Any link saar for contract signing?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 22 Sep 2020 02:24

Aiyoo Saar, I mistakenly assumed the DAC clearance meant it got approved. I did not realize that the contract has not been signed :oops:

So contract has still not been signed, as per this article from Aug 27, 2020.

Russia to sign Su-30, MiG-29 Jets Contracts with India by Year End
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27717 ... 2kL33lKg2w

Let me go do my penance.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 22 Sep 2020 02:33

"Contract by year end" is standard babuspeak response. Even the LCH and Tejas Mk1A are in "Contract by year-end" state. Doesn't mean there will be an actual contract by year end. In December they will change it to end of fiscal year, then Q1 of next and so on. Whenever it happens, I hope we see the Mk1A and LCH contracts first.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Sep 2020 02:43

MoD is probably talking about end of fiscal and not calendar year. So contract by March 2021?

Unless an aircraft maker has an assembly line open like the Rafale, F-18, and F-35, it will take a minimum of 12 weeks to get parts and supplies ordered and delivered to begin production.

It’s not too late to cancel the contract and order an additional 60 more Tejas.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Sep 2020 04:04

nachiket wrote:"Contract by year end" is standard babuspeak response. Even the LCH and Tejas Mk1A are in "Contract by year-end" state. Doesn't mean there will be an actual contract by year end. In December they will change it to end of fiscal year, then Q1 of next and so on. Whenever it happens, I hope we see the Mk1A and LCH contracts first.

WTH takes so long. And this during wartime.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 22 Sep 2020 15:27

Mort Walker wrote:MoD is probably talking about end of fiscal and not calendar year. So contract by March 2021?

Unless an aircraft maker has an assembly line open like the Rafale, F-18, and F-35, it will take a minimum of 12 weeks to get parts and supplies ordered and delivered to begin production.

It’s not too late to cancel the contract and order an additional 60 more Tejas.


And when will HAL deliver those 60? They're still at 8 a/c per year with a new line for the trainers to start rolling out a/c from end 2021. The IAF as it is has enough risk to it's induction schedules with HAL, they will simply not be foolish enough to expect HAL to ramp up to 24-30 Tejas fighters per year any time soon.

Su-30MKIs will be delivered by HAL Nasik from the existing line that was delivering ~13 a/c per year, with some parts being supplied by Russia. The MiG-29UPGs are mostly built up, so refurbishing and delivering them will take a fraction of the time it'll take to build and deliver new jets.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby dinesh_kimar » 22 Sep 2020 19:52

I have recently read that these Mig 29 planes are "sparingly used". Apparently, they were bought by Algeria a few years back, then rejected and returned to the Russians due to structural damage in the air frames. The Russians then made a deal to replace these Planes with Sukhoi 30 aircraft and took back the aircraft.

If this is the case, I think we are better off buying 12+ 21 MKI.

Hell, just make a deal for 270 more MKI, to replace old Mig 21 and Mig 27 squadrons?

We can push up localisation to 75-80%, and better / cheaper than Mig 29 with Russian upgrade kits.

I believe from reading BRF that Su-30MKI is more capable and versatile than Mig 29.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Sep 2020 20:46

Investment into HAL must be made for the greater good. Buying structurally deficient Russian junk does no one any good.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby LakshmanPST » 23 Sep 2020 08:04

dinesh_kimar wrote:I have recently read that these Mig 29 planes are "sparingly used". Apparently, they were bought by Algeria a few years back, then rejected and returned to the Russians due to structural damage in the air frames. The Russians then made a deal to replace these Planes with Sukhoi 30 aircraft and took back the aircraft.

If this is the case, I think we are better off buying 12+ 21 MKI.

Hell, just make a deal for 270 more MKI, to replace old Mig 21 and Mig 27 squadrons?

We can push up localisation to 75-80%, and better / cheaper than Mig 29 with Russian upgrade kits.

I believe from reading BRF that Su-30MKI is more capable and versatile than Mig 29.


AFAIK, these 21 MIG29s are moth-balled, unused & partially finished airframes... Not the jets delivered to and taken back from Algeria...
These airframes will be finished and upgraded before delivery to IAF...

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 23 Sep 2020 11:55

dinesh_kimar wrote:I have recently read that these Mig 29 planes are "sparingly used". Apparently, they were bought by Algeria a few years back, then rejected and returned to the Russians due to structural damage in the air frames. The Russians then made a deal to replace these Planes with Sukhoi 30 aircraft and took back the aircraft.

If this is the case, I think we are better off buying 12+ 21 MKI.

Hell, just make a deal for 270 more MKI, to replace old Mig 21 and Mig 27 squadrons?

We can push up localisation to 75-80%, and better / cheaper than Mig 29 with Russian upgrade kits.

I believe from reading BRF that Su-30MKI is more capable and versatile than Mig 29.


Incorrect. There was no "structural damage". The Algerians were miffed that many parts on the supposedly new build MiG-29SMTs were actually built in the early 1990s and re-used on them. Back in the 1990s, prior to the Soviet collapse, MiG-29 production was in full swing.

So they demanded that the Russians take those MiG-29SMTs back and the Russians did so. Those SMTs will truly have a lot of life left in them and as such, will be in pretty good condition. Their vintage is newer than the IAF MiG-29s that were upgraded to the UPG standard.

We have more than adequate numbers of MKIs. Adding 21 MiG-29UPGs makes sense given the delivery timeframe, cost and the fact that the UPG is considered pretty darn good in the IAF. We should see them serving on for another 15 years easily.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Sep 2020 11:59

LakshmanPST wrote:
dinesh_kimar wrote:I have recently read that these Mig 29 planes are "sparingly used". Apparently, they were bought by Algeria a few years back, then rejected and returned to the Russians due to structural damage in the air frames. The Russians then made a deal to replace these Planes with Sukhoi 30 aircraft and took back the aircraft.

If this is the case, I think we are better off buying 12+ 21 MKI.

Hell, just make a deal for 270 more MKI, to replace old Mig 21 and Mig 27 squadrons?

We can push up localisation to 75-80%, and better / cheaper than Mig 29 with Russian upgrade kits.

I believe from reading BRF that Su-30MKI is more capable and versatile than Mig 29.


AFAIK, these 21 MIG29s are moth-balled, unused & partially finished airframes... Not the jets delivered to and taken back from Algeria...
These airframes will be finished and upgraded before delivery to IAF...



I think, the IAF/MOD have also done thier part of telling half truths here, otherwise these jets would have been caught in the Single Vendor MRCA circus, this is what happenned when the IAF and Govt of day thought they could build 126 M-2000-5, when the BIF Eco system struck back with Tehelka which started the whole MMRCA circus.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 23 Sep 2020 12:04

LakshmanPST wrote:
AFAIK, these 21 MIG29s are moth-balled, unused & partially finished airframes... Not the jets delivered to and taken back from Algeria...
These airframes will be finished and upgraded before delivery to IAF...


It is still unclear whether these are the former Algerian SMTs that were returned to Russia or partially built Soviet era MiG-29s. AFM reported it as being the former.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Sep 2020 07:52

Kartik wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
AFAIK, these 21 MIG29s are moth-balled, unused & partially finished airframes... Not the jets delivered to and taken back from Algeria...
These airframes will be finished and upgraded before delivery to IAF...


It is still unclear whether these are the former Algerian SMTs that were returned to Russia or partially built Soviet era MiG-29s. AFM reported it as being the former.

Algerian smts were inducted by the vvs iirc

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 24 Sep 2020 17:16

Cain Marko wrote:
Kartik wrote:
It is still unclear whether these are the former Algerian SMTs that were returned to Russia or partially built Soviet era MiG-29s. AFM reported it as being the former.

Algerian smts were inducted by the vvs iirc


Yes they were. But it remained the only VVS unit flying SMTs AFAIK. There is a clear preference in the VVS for Su-27 variants over MiG-29 variants.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 02 Oct 2020 02:01

TSarkar or Abhibhushan saar,

In 1996 timeframe one of the arguments for acquiring the SU30 MKI was for deep strike in Xinkiang. Anyone recall that?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 02 Oct 2020 21:41

ramana wrote:TSarkar or Abhibhushan saar,
In 1996 timeframe one of the arguments for acquiring the SU30 MKI was for deep strike in Xinkiang. Anyone recall that?

Yes indeed. We funded the Su-30MKI development from Su-27PU specifically with that intent.

But having said that, its 2000's technology and the order for 12 Su-30 + 21 MiG-29 is dated technology and wont be delivered in time for a conflict with China. I would have preferred converting HAL Nashik into a LCA line with additional 32 Mk1 orders. It would have been delivered the same time as the 12+21 orders.

The LCA is apt for operations from Leh & Thoise. Operations from forward bases with quick operation/reaction is the basic philosophy why light fighters are built and operated.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 02 Oct 2020 23:11

tsarkar wrote:But having said that, its 2000's technology and the order for 12 Su-30 + 21 MiG-29 is dated technology and wont be delivered in time for a conflict with China. I would have preferred converting HAL Nashik into a LCA line with additional 32 Mk1 orders. It would have been delivered the same time as the 12+21 orders.

The 12 MKI order is for attrition replacements for the squadrons which lost aircraft in crashes. Once the line is closed we won't be able to get any more. Why keep existing squadrons understrength when we are already dealing with an aircraft shortage?

As for the Mig-29 being dated tech, the UPG in service has a decent radar, plus a desi DRFM jammer mounted internally, new cockpit avionics, new Thales HMS, new engines. Considering the last order for Astra included 48 for the Navy Mig-29's I am assuming integrating the Astra with the IAF Mig-29's should not be an issue (they share radars after the upgrade). So why exactly is this dated compared to any other aircraft in IAF service except the Rafale?

As for Tejas, let the MoD give the order for the 83 Mk1A first which seems to be still sitting on some desk somewhere (waiting on some forms to be filed in triplicate perhaps) while HAL waits for it patiently.

Again, all 3 of these "orders" (MKI, 29 and Tejas) are not actually "orders" but DAC approvals. Nothing has been signed yet.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby fanne » 04 Oct 2020 07:39

21 Mig 29 orders (reading from twitter of retd. air marshals, OSINT etc) has the following
1. 21 Mig 29 will have AESA radar of russian origin (most likely Zhuk-A/AM - https://idrw.org/iaf-asks-for-aesa-rada ... om-russia/).
2.All Mig 29s in IAF and IN (approx. 120 in number + new 21) will have Indian Mission computer (MC). This helps in integrating Indian AAM (like Astra), along with Russian and other country sourced weapon. I believe that may be one of the stuff that Shri RS would have bargained hard on his many trips to Russia. (Point to note, upgraded M2ki also have Indian MC)
3.There is still talk of better engines for all these fighters. Our license agreement will perhaps be upgraded to produce these better engines.

Future potential upgrades (i.e. kite flying...but if these planes have life left why not)
1. With Indian MC, perhaps we can go for in-house avionics upgrade. I hope that LCA-MK2 avionics will be on the lines of Rafale - Data fusion from varied sensors - Radar, Optical (FLIR), RWR; decision making using either AI or even non-AI, only relevant and useful information presented directly on HUD, integrate the data with other systems -AWACS, ground based systems, other planes etc. Now copy paste this avionics suite to Mig29upg next upgrade. Since it is in house, should be less costly and with the kind of TWR that Mig 29 has, and with latest avionics, it will be very lethal.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby brar_w » 04 Oct 2020 20:10

fanne wrote:1. 21 Mig 29 will have AESA radar of russian origin (most likely Zhuk-A/AM - https://idrw.org/iaf-asks-for-aesa-rada ... om-russia/).


This is interesting because as far as I can tell an AESA has not been made operational on the MiG-29 (or Su-27 family) yet. Here's hoping that the IAF has some control over development, testing and how and when additional modes are developed and added given that there does not appear to be any other customer (yet) for this radar. With AESAs, component obsolescence and additional modes become very easy to address but somehow has to to fund and then manage the program to ensure that as more reliable and higher performance components come in, they are brought into the program while additional capability is unlocked via hardware and software upgrades. With the RuAF lukewarm on the MiG-29 family in general, perhaps it is an opportunity for the IAF/MOD to seek program ownership.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 04 Oct 2020 21:20

The magnificent Umaid Bhavan Palace in the background.I visited it 30 yrs. ago with my then heartthrob,when an old retainer/relative of the royal family was in charge of PR,took us around.I think her name was Bhaiji,whatever.She had great stories of how it was built in the midst of a famine.Criticised for doing so at such a time,the maharajah actually wanted large employment for his people during the famine.Henry Lanchester I think was the famous architect,most splendid art deco palace in the world.The original furniture was en route by sea to India,the ship was sunk in the Meditt.,so alternative furniture was supplied.It has its own theatre with screens for the ladies to watch from a gallery. My crowning moment of the visit,a beautiful marble statue of Queen Victoria strategically placed upon a heap of debris in a corner of the garden! Staying at Umaid Bhavan Palace with its basement swimming pool,etc.is an unforgettable experience.Along with the Mehrangarh Fort,the palace is an unmissable place to visit in Jodhpur. There is another more friendly palace hotel to stay in,Ajit Bhavan Palace,the home of one of the Rathore royals.The favourite haunt of Kushwant Singh.Lovely quaint cottages on different themes set out in the large gardens.Dining in the courtyard during winter,charcoal sigris warming one's body outside,amber liquid warming one's insides,the Bhopas playing their traditional songs of the glory of their ancient land,and the tables covered with colourful local fabric,lit from below like stained glass ,groaning with food,unforgettable!The airport then was full of MIG-23/27s,now home to the Flankers.

Tx.Kartik for that great pic,brought back memories!

Reg.the extra MIG-29s ,these are not ex-Algerian,but brand new birds,mothballed. AM Masand,on an official visit to Ru when he was in service,saw around 100+ 29s all new,mothballed.He said we could've acquired them ( offered to us) for a song.A SE version of the Flanker,a Sukhoi LCA,was also offered for the princely sum of $5 M a pop! Since our desi LCA was in the works,we didn't examine the offer further,a great pity,as commonality with the larger MKIs would've made this bird a very cheap and cost-effective bird to operate.Extra MIG-29s,would the new engines have TVC like those on the 35,MKIs? At just $40 M a pop,these birds will be very cost-effective fighters ,prices in the LCA range too.I wonder how the 29Ks are faring in Ladakh. The SS upgrades is something that must be sealed asap.Having at least 50% of the MKI fleet able to carry BMos ,Astra,and new LR Ru AAMs,will be a huge force multiplier for the IAF,achieved at reasonable upgrade cost.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby fanne » 04 Oct 2020 23:07

brar_w wrote:
This is interesting because as far as I can tell an AESA has not been made operational on the MiG-29 (or Su-27 family) yet. ....


I would see this as a Russian offer to entice us for a larger version of this on SU30MKI. And since these are new Mig29, I can see them in service for next 30 years =2050 (of course depending on various factors). You will need AESA, I believe they may come with one to begin with.

Mig29 has always been an excellent plane (raw aerodynamics, WVR etc.). It lacked in 3 spheres -1)range 2)Avionics and 3)Extension of avionics, BVR (mostly owing to R-77 lack of performance).
Through vanilla UPG we have taken care of 1 and 2 (and somewhat 3). With the current upgrade and Indian MC, number 3 is now behind us (it will have Indian ASTRA 1,2; SFDR) and perhaps any new russian missile (R-77-1?). If we port LCAMK2- avionics when ready (with assumption that data fusion, decision making, display, EW will be Rafale like) to it, this will be a very very formidable bird. Since we have to develop the LCAMK2 avionics (or AMCA), there is no additional cost except for hardware (if that).

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby V_Raman » 04 Oct 2020 23:26

Will all this news - we might go for a hybrid mig 35 :twisted:

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 04 Oct 2020 23:53

brar_w wrote:
fanne wrote:1. 21 Mig 29 will have AESA radar of russian origin (most likely Zhuk-A/AM - https://idrw.org/iaf-asks-for-aesa-rada ... om-russia/).


This is interesting because as far as I can tell an AESA has not been made operational on the MiG-29 (or Su-27 family) yet. Here's hoping that the IAF has some control over development, testing and how and when additional modes are developed and added given that there does not appear to be any other customer (yet) for this radar.

IDRW is getting that from Sameer Joshi's twitter account who is ex-IAF. But I believe even his comment was speculation. There is no official source for this and to be honest it sounds highly unlikely because of the reason you have given - there simply is no operational AESA on the Mig-29 yet while the Zhuk-ME has been available for a while and is tested and well known by both the IAF and IN.

The speculation about AESA started when there was mention of unspecified "upgrades" to the Mig-29 fleet along with the extra 21 order. These upgrades in all likelihood refer to the HAL MC which will make it easy to integrate Indian weapons with the 29 fleet just like the MKI's right now.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 05 Oct 2020 02:33

Sameer is usually not given to speculation. He stated IAF has asked for it, but also noted that whether the Russians have anything capable or mature enough is a different matter altogether. They most certainly do have a relatively well tested AESA flying on the Su-57 but don't want to hand it out as its tied to the aircraft's USP plus they have to regain the Irbis-E development costs.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 05 Oct 2020 02:57

nachiket wrote:As for the Mig-29 being dated tech, the UPG in service has a decent radar, plus a desi DRFM jammer mounted internally, new cockpit avionics, new Thales HMS, new engines. Considering the last order for Astra included 48 for the Navy Mig-29's I am assuming integrating the Astra with the IAF Mig-29's should not be an issue (they share radars after the upgrade). So why exactly is this dated compared to any other aircraft in IAF service except the Rafale?


There are two aspects to a fighter aircraft - the airframe (including engine) and the systems.

We did an expensive Sea Harrier upgrade with state of the art radar, datalink and BVR missiles but with ageing airframe and engines, the fighter went out of service. The RoI on the upgrade was barely realized.

We did another expensive MiG-27 upgrade with state of the art avionics but yet again with ageing airframe and engines, the fighter went out of service. The RoI on the upgrade was barely realized.

The Jaguar Darin 3 for oldest airframes is also under a cloud with re-engining not happening. What’s the point in equipping new avionics when the airframe and engines are dated? The last 37 Jaguars ordered 1999 delivered 2010 will have a very short service life unless Adour engines are made available for them in future.

Coming to the MiG-29, given the Vikramaditya experience, I seriously doubt whether the old airframes are as good as new. With reports of possible service with other countries, and lack of clear pedigree, it’s as dubious as it gets.

Secondly the MiG-29K/KUB/UPG Zhuk radar was developed on Indian money and is equivalent to Bars. Both Bars and Zhuk were good in 2001 but not in 2020.

The Rafale RBE-2AA, Tejas Mk1A Elta 2052, Mirage 2000 RDY-2, Tejas Mk1 Elta 2032 are superior radars than Bars and Zhuk. Before someone trumpets Bars range, they need to understand resolution and modes are much more important than raw range.

There are NO production ready AESA radars in Russia

The only benefit MiG-29UPG has is that it’s the only IAF fighter with internal EW suite and that has its own advantage in A2A against Pakistani F-16 with ALQ-211 v4 and v9 AIDEWS. The ALQ-211 also arms our B-777 VVIP jets.

But from an overall system integration perspective more Su-30MKI and MiG-29UPG will be inferior to Tejas Mk1A.

This is (more) hafta to Russia and Rozgaar Yojana to HAL Nashik to keep them occupied until 2024 elections and possibly IAF 11 BRD also at Nashik to keep them occupied with MiG-29UPG work. I doubt the Russians can/will install the Italian + Indian EW suites on the aircraft. That work has to happen in India at IAF 11 BRD.

Hence my aversion to any imports other than Rafale. Maybe another 36.

If not, then convert the Su-30MKI line at Nashik to Tejas Mk1A with additional orders

The dated technology MiG-29UPG & Su-30MKI will take the same time as new technology Tejas Mk1A
Last edited by tsarkar on 05 Oct 2020 03:20, edited 1 time in total.


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