Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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tsarkar
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 05 Oct 2020 03:04

nachiket wrote:These upgrades in all likelihood refer to the HAL MC which will make it easy to integrate Indian weapons with the 29 fleet just like the MKI's right now.

There are NO HAL components in MiG-29 UPG program. It’s run by IAF 11 BRD at Nashik with zero involvement from HAL

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 05 Oct 2020 03:15

BTW the IAF Maintenance Command has significant abilities and infrastructure to assemble, maintain, overhaul and upgrade aircraft.

11 BRD Nashik manages the 100 odd IAF+IN MiG-29 fleet.

Chandigarh BRD manages the 200+ Mi-8/17 fleet.

Another is doing An-32 upgrade.

This includes assembly of CKD kits that is also what HAL does beyond the 140 Su-30MKI licensed to manufacture from raw material stage.

HAL too assembled 100 Su-30MKI fighters from CKD kits supplied from Russia. 40 ordered 2007 to replace MiG-23BN, 18 ordered 2007 to replace 18 Su-30K and 42 ordered 2012 with hardened airframe for BrahMos centerline carriage being delivered now.

Remains to be seen if the new 12 Su-30MKI are CKD kits or “built from raw materials stage”.

While some BR members get awestruck by HAL press releases, the IAF Maintenance Command also running the MiG-29, An-32, Mi-17 assembly and upgrade at its BRD & PC-7 assembly programs is an equally large establishment as HAL is.

So they do have a fair bit of understanding of aircraft programs and aren’t in awe of HAL like some BR members.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 05 Oct 2020 03:39

If that is the case, IAF should have trained private companies like TASL to do some if the work.

Would have reduced cost and build a alternative ecosystem.

Doesn't look like IAF I'd interested in doing it. Before someone mentions security, it is no different from managing assets like C17.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 05 Oct 2020 06:05

tsarkar wrote:There are two aspects to a fighter aircraft - the airframe (including engine) and the systems.

We did an expensive Sea Harrier upgrade with state of the art radar, datalink and BVR missiles but with ageing airframe and engines, the fighter went out of service. The RoI on the upgrade was barely realized.

We did another expensive MiG-27 upgrade with state of the art avionics but yet again with ageing airframe and engines, the fighter went out of service. The RoI on the upgrade was barely realized.

The Jaguar Darin 3 for oldest airframes is also under a cloud with re-engining not happening. What’s the point in equipping new avionics when the airframe and engines are dated? The last 37 Jaguars ordered 1999 delivered 2010 will have a very short service life unless Adour engines are made available for them in future.

Coming to the MiG-29, given the Vikramaditya experience, I seriously doubt whether the old airframes are as good as new. With reports of possible service with other countries, and lack of clear pedigree, it’s as dubious as it gets.

The question of ageing engines does not apply to the Mig-29UPG since all the aircraft received new RD-33 Series-3 engines which reportedly solve the one issue that the IAF had with the original engines - smokiness. Unlike the Jaguar, the Mig-29 has always had loads of reserve power available and a new higher thrust engine is not needed. Neither is the RD-33 infamous in IAF service for failures like the Mig-27's engine was.

The Navy's experience with airframe issues was due to the Russians failing to properly test and strengthen and ruggedize the basic Mig-29 airframe and components for the much highers stress of carrier landings. That problem does not exist for the IAF. They have been happily using the Mig-29 everywhere from Leh to Jamnagar with no significant issues for decades.

Secondly the MiG-29K/KUB/UPG Zhuk radar was developed on Indian money and is equivalent to Bars. Both Bars and Zhuk were good in 2001 but not in 2020.

The Rafale RBE-2AA, Tejas Mk1A Elta 2052, Mirage 2000 RDY-2, Tejas Mk1 Elta 2032 are superior radars than Bars and Zhuk. Before someone trumpets Bars range, they need to understand resolution and modes are much more important than raw range.

There are NO production ready AESA radars in Russia

The only benefit MiG-29UPG has is that it’s the only IAF fighter with internal EW suite and that has its own advantage in A2A against Pakistani F-16 with ALQ-211 v4 and v9 AIDEWS. The ALQ-211 also arms our B-777 VVIP jets.

But from an overall system integration perspective more Su-30MKI and MiG-29UPG will be inferior to Tejas Mk1A.


Do you have any comparative analysis of the Zhuk-ME vs the RDY2 (which is from the late 90's -early 2000's as well) or the Elta-2032? Otherwise this is just your opinion. About the Bars not being good enough, again, where are you getting that from? The Su-30's are due for a MLU anyway in which they will receive a new radar. And you completely failed to address my earlier comment that the 12 MKI's are only attrition replacements. Where does the question of radar being good enough or not arise when you are buying attrition replacements for an aircraft of which you operate over 250.

Anyway, I don't understand why this is supposed to be a Mig-29/MKI vs Tejas Mk1A scenario. There is already an order for 83 Mk1A's pending with the MoD that the IAF has asked for.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby asbchakri » 05 Oct 2020 08:58

I read here that HAL already started on LCH production in anticipation of the order confirmation (or am I mistaken). Why not do the same for the LCA (83) too.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Srutayus » 05 Oct 2020 09:47

I read here that HAL already started on LCH production in anticipation of the order confirmation (or am I mistaken). Why not do the same for the LCA (83) too.

Because there is no LCAMk1A yet. Hopefully the prototype flies and is certified in about 2 years or so. HAL needs to buckle up and make that happen. All our calculations cannot be based on this being a certainty, even more so because of past experience.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 05 Oct 2020 21:46

tsarkar wrote:
nachiket wrote:These upgrades in all likelihood refer to the HAL MC which will make it easy to integrate Indian weapons with the 29 fleet just like the MKI's right now.

There are NO HAL components in MiG-29 UPG program. It’s run by IAF 11 BRD at Nashik with zero involvement from HAL

I was talking about the new 21 order, the news article for which mentioned additional upgrades for the current (already upgraded) fleet as well, which could be the indigenous mission computer. The HAL made mission computer is already on the upgraded Mirage-2000I and the Jaguar DARIN-3. Makes sense for it to be added tot he 29 as well. Will enable easier integration of Astra and other Indian munitions if the IAF requires them.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 05 Oct 2020 22:54

nachiket wrote:
tsarkar wrote:There are NO HAL components in MiG-29 UPG program. It’s run by IAF 11 BRD at Nashik with zero involvement from HAL

I was talking about the new 21 order, the news article for which mentioned additional upgrades for the current (already upgraded) fleet as well, which could be the indigenous mission computer. The HAL made mission computer is already on the upgraded Mirage-2000I and the Jaguar DARIN-3. Makes sense for it to be added tot he 29 as well. Will enable easier integration of Astra and other Indian munitions if the IAF requires them.

No, it doesnt financially and technically.

India paid for MiG-29K/KUB development including mission computer for 45 aircraft. Thereafter the IAF further amortized the cost over an upgrade of 59 aircraft.

The mission computer is referenced here in Kapil Chandni's report from 2010 here.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... ?g2_page=2
The navigation suite includes a RLG INS with GPS and GLONASS updates, ILS, MLS and TACAN. Communications suite includes two V/UHF R/T sets, one H/F RT set and a datalink. The primary sensors are a Zhuk-ME pulsed Doppler radar that works in a-a, a-s, weather and terrain avoidance modes, a powerful OLS with a look down capability, the indigenous Tarang RWR and an Elta supplied ASPJ. The pilot has a Topsight HMS and target designation system. A quadruplex FBW system and autopilot allows carefree maneuvering with g’s, speed, AoA limited automatically. The airplane has an autopilot that is integrated with the mission computer and auto throttle system. The avionics are also NVG compatible.


Image
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... 1.JPG.html

You referred to Mirage 2000 and Jaguar using HAL mission computers. That makes sense because both aircraft were from the 80's, are 40 years old and required new mission computers. In case of the MiG-29K/KUB/UPG they have been recently built/upgraded in the last 10 years with a nearly brand new mission computer.

HAL doesnt have a ready MC for MiG-29. It will have to develop & build brand new or customize a MC from other programs.

1. When HAL or IAF go to MoD Integrated Finance Advisors for Acceptance of Necessity (AoN), who will approve additional spending when money has already been spent on developing MiG-29K/KUB/UPG Mission Computer and additional units available cheaper than a brand new development program?

2. What incremental technical benefits will the HAL MC offer over existing MiG-29K/KUB/UPG MC developed a few years ago? Not much.

The existing MiG-29K/KUB/UPG mission computers being open standards can easily integrate Astra or any indigenous weapons.

3. 45+59 MiG-29K/KUB/UPG use Russian MC and 21 will use HAL MC. This will impact ICY within the fleet. You would very well know the importance of ICY from Tejas story.

4. Development of new MC by HAL for 21 MiG-29K/KUB/UPG followed by rigorous testing will take time defeating the very purpose of quick induction of 21 aircraft

HAL MC on MiG-29 is fake wishes/aspirations/news of uninformed people on the internet or twitter who extrapolate news of Mirage 2000 and Jaguar upgrades not knowing the depth of the MiG-29K/KUB/UPG program.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby MeshaVishwas » 07 Oct 2020 21:38

Tan da dan:

Courtesy: https://twitter.com/kayjay34350/status/ ... 04608?s=20

Now that is how the (NG?)HAS for a Su-30 looks like :D

(Dont know why but I think we can fit 2 Tejas and a HMT Tractor in there :lol: )

Image

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2020 21:49

Waah, kya shot hai.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 07 Oct 2020 23:04

A clearer image of the full EW loadout - Sap-518 + SAP-14

Image

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby abhik » 08 Oct 2020 00:37

MeshaVishwas wrote:Tan da dan:

Courtesy: https://twitter.com/kayjay34350/status/ ... 04608?s=20

Now that is how the (NG?)HAS for a Su-30 looks like :D

(Dont know why but I think we can fit 2 Tejas and a HMT Tractor in there :lol: )

https://i.imgur.com/AzU99EI.jpg


Could be one of the older ones, I think MKI can just about squeeze in to some of the existing HAS like his one.

There are actually very few new HAS built going by Google sat images, Halwara for example (location of the photo) appears to have only 2 till date, no signs any more being built either.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby asbchakri » 10 Oct 2020 22:20

Srutayus wrote:
I read here that HAL already started on LCH production in anticipation of the order confirmation (or am I mistaken). Why not do the same for the LCA (83) too.

Because there is no LCAMk1A yet. Hopefully the prototype flies and is certified in about 2 years or so. HAL needs to buckle up and make that happen. All our calculations cannot be based on this being a certainty, even more so because of past experience.


I'm not talking about the MK1A, sorry my bad I thought you said Mk2, Actually I was talking about the 83 LCA which are in the final phase of placing the order. If they are ready for production, how come it takes another 2 years to be certified. Am i missing something here.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Oct 2020 05:06

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 23584?s=20 ---> The Su-30MKI will receive an update on electronics in the near future. In pic(from near to far) DRDO High band jammer pod, DRDO SIVA targeting pod MAWS integrated weapons pylon. All 3 of them are meant for the Su-30MKI.

Image

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Srutayus » 23 Oct 2020 08:55

sorry my bad I thought you said Mk2, Actually I was talking about the 83 LCA which are in the final phase of placing the order. If they are ready for production, how come it takes another 2 years to be certified. Am i missing something here.

Indeed the first prototype of the Mk1A is yet to fly, and certification will have to follow that eventually. Mk2 will be even later. It is hoped that the development and certification of the Mk1A will be relatively quick due to the airframe commonality with the Mk1. But with HAL’s track record some prayers need to be said as well. Which is also why the hyperventilating about the immediate ordering of the Mk1A is unnecessary. The government and IAF are really placing their trust in HAL with this imminent order, make no mistake.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JTull » 23 Oct 2020 16:46

Srutayus wrote:
sorry my bad I thought you said Mk2, Actually I was talking about the 83 LCA which are in the final phase of placing the order. If they are ready for production, how come it takes another 2 years to be certified. Am i missing something here.

Indeed the first prototype of the Mk1A is yet to fly, and certification will have to follow that eventually. Mk2 will be even later. It is hoped that the development and certification of the Mk1A will be relatively quick due to the airframe commonality with the Mk1. But with HAL’s track record some prayers need to be said as well. Which is also why the hyperventilating about the immediate ordering of the Mk1A is unnecessary. The government and IAF are really placing their trust in HAL with this imminent order, make no mistake.


There won't be a Mk1A prototype!

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Srutayus » 23 Oct 2020 20:18

There won't be a Mk1A prototype!

Call it what you want. The integration of the Mk1a configuration is planned to begin next year and certification will be 1-2 years after that.
Here is a recent month old article from Ananthakrishnan on this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/08/06/upgraded-tejas-jet-touted-as-real-desi-game-changer-to-fly-in-2022-23.amp.html

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Oct 2020 20:28

I believe one of the LSPs are being converted into a Mk1A test bed. Someone kindly confirm.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JTull » 23 Oct 2020 20:44

Rakesh wrote:I believe one of the LSPs are being converted into a Mk1A test bed. Someone kindly confirm.


I think different LSPs are being used to test different components such as AESA, SPJ, OBOGS etc. The cockpit changes may never be flight tested until the first production version.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 27 Oct 2020 18:10

Rakesh wrote:I believe one of the LSPs are being converted into a Mk1A test bed. Someone kindly confirm.


Indranil had mentioned the number. As I recall, it was LSP-8. Indranil could confirm it once again.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 27 Oct 2020 21:42

You are correct. That is the one.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby MeshaVishwas » 28 Oct 2020 00:41

Remembering the legend:
https://twitter.com/EmbassyofRussia/sta ... 83968?s=20
Also reminds me about the Su-30MKI article on FG and the prophetic timelines mentioned by IAPO chief in 2002

IAPO chairman Aleksei Fiodorov says the Su-30MKI's aerodynamics and Lyulka Saturn AL-31F turbofan engines will stay competitive without major upgrades for 10-12 years.

https://www.flightglobal.com/staying-po ... 87.article

Hope the Super Su materializes quickly.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 28 Oct 2020 01:09

tsarkar wrote:
nachiket wrote:These upgrades in all likelihood refer to the HAL MC which will make it easy to integrate Indian weapons with the 29 fleet just like the MKI's right now.

There are NO HAL components in MiG-29 UPG program. It’s run by IAF 11 BRD at Nashik with zero involvement from HAL


HAL license manufactures the RD33 for the MiG29 UPG and iirc some avionics and spares as well.

https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details ... y=&CKey=30

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 28 Oct 2020 21:24

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:There are NO HAL components in MiG-29 UPG program. It’s run by IAF 11 BRD at Nashik with zero involvement from HAL


HAL license manufactures the RD33 for the MiG29 UPG and iirc some avionics and spares as well.

https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details ... y=&CKey=30

You're right. The RD-33 engine and gearbox come via HAL. My mistake thinking only in terms of structural and avionics upgrades forgetting the engine.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2020 23:37

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/13222 ... 15905?s=20 ---> Taking notes. Do name another fighter aircraft which carries a 2.5 ton missile that flies at trisonic speeds across half-a-thousand kilometres.

Image

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Prithwiraj » 31 Oct 2020 22:12

Mig 31?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vivek K » 01 Nov 2020 00:43

Is the MKI trisonic.DDMitis.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby John » 01 Nov 2020 03:28

Vivek K wrote:Is the MKI trisonic.DDMitis.

That is referring to Brahmos' Mach 3 speed across 500 km.

trisonic speeds across half-a-thousand kilometres.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2020 03:50


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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Nov 2020 12:03

*Mein Gott! That is absolutely THE BEST.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 01 Nov 2020 13:37

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1322585391560499200?s=20 ---> Glam looks are a superpower

Never before seen side by side dual pylon on any IAF aircraft.

The Su-30MKI has four hard points on each wing including wingtips and now it’s 5

Image

There is a possibility of the dual pylons being there for OFAB-100-120

Multiple OFAB-100-120 has been carried but on single pylons
Image

The Sea Harrier had dual pylons for two Matra Magic 2, one Magic 2 + one Derby or one Magic 2 + Elta 8222 Jammer

The Sea Harrier combo will be reused for Tejas Mk1A

The Jaguar carries two bombs linearly and that is reused in Tejas Mk1 FOC

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 01 Nov 2020 14:14

Is that an IAF Su-30 though? Check the black strip besides the cockpit. Thats found on RMAF MKMs.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby andy B » 01 Nov 2020 14:18

Karan M wrote:Is that an IAF Su-30 though? Check the black strip besides the cockpit. Thats found on RMAF MKMs.


On top of that Karan it seems the radome is entirely white? And the paint around the cockpit is blacked out. IIRC IAF mkis only have the anti glare black paint front of the cockpit. I reckon this may be a RUAF sm bird.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 01 Nov 2020 14:43

Good catch. Yeah its likely a SM.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby andy B » 01 Nov 2020 15:03

Karan M wrote:Good catch. Yeah its likely a SM.


Sir ji could also be a RUaN bird as they were also sporting the white radomes?

Either way would be great addition for the IAF....4 rudrams on each of the inner four pylons with dual astras and a couple of r73/asraams om outer. Siva or equiv. targeting pod(s) under fuselage. Good hunting onlee.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2020 23:40

I don't believe it is a Rambha, just a Su-30 from some other country. I assume HVT Sir found it and tweeted it out.

Beautiful shot nevertheless.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 02 Nov 2020 14:40

My mistake, saw it on a mobile and failed to see the IAF mark under cockpit and on the tail.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 02 Nov 2020 23:38

That dual pylon seems very useful though. Especially since the SAP-518's occupy both wingtip pylons, reducing the number of AAM's carried. Also, if we somehow manage to plumb the inner wing HP's for carrying EFT's during the upgrade, the dual pylon will come in useful to ensure we still have enough pylons available for ordnance.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 03 Nov 2020 00:21

Vivek K wrote:Is the MKI trisonic.DDMitis.

DDM? The tweet is by Grp. Capt. HV Thakur. I assume you know who he is. And yes he was referring to the Brahmos.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vivek K » 03 Nov 2020 01:00

There is no intended disrespect to the distinguished gentleman in my comment. He remains one of my Heroes and there is no shame in tendering an apology to him if it was misunderstood.

He wrote this -
Do name another fighter aircraft which carries a 2.5 ton missile that flies at trisonic speeds across half-a-thousand kilometres.

There are two nouns in the text - fighter and missile. His use of pronouns can cause differing interpretations. Some will interpret it as talking about a trisonic aircraft and some will interpret it as talking about a trisonic missile.

Rakesh already cleared the matter and I took his explanation as clearing up my misunderstanding.


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