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Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Zynda
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Zynda » 04 Oct 2017 23:01

What about structural considerations of engine components running on full burner? Are the components rated to work at those extreme conditions longer than the fuel lasts?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -specs.htm

The above link says that normal fuel carriage in Su-30MKI is around 5300Kg. So that gives around 5300/400 = 13.25 minutes of flight time on full burner.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 05 Oct 2017 08:18

You also need to factor in parameters like TO weight, external load out, airfield altitude, air temperature & density at flying altitude

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Oct 2017 09:58

The only aircraft I know that can do a sustained supersonic dash at full AB high speed is Mig-31 that does greater than Mach 2+ and has a combat radius of 700 km at high supersonic speed and can last for 30-40 mins max it uses special high density fuel

Most aircraft wont last 10 mins plus if they go full after burner

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Indranil » 05 Oct 2017 10:06

Concorde, SR-71

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Oct 2017 12:02

Indranil wrote:Concorde, SR-71


Yes but they are not combat fighters may be I should have been specific

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Oct 2017 12:04

ACM on MKI upgrade program to Force Mag

What is the update on upgrade programme of the Su-30 MKI? Please tell us about the upgrade kits for these?


The contours of the comprehensive upgrade of the Su-30 MKI aircraft are being finalised. The upgrade will comprise of better radar, new avionics, EW system, and new weapons to address obsolescence.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2017 12:55

Zynda wrote:What about structural considerations of engine components running on full burner? Are the components rated to work at those extreme conditions longer than the fuel lasts?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -specs.htm

The above link says that normal fuel carriage in Su-30MKI is around 5300Kg. So that gives around 5300/400 = 13.25 minutes of flight time on full burner.


Only the nozzle is affected by AB operation really. Nozzle is lowest life component, typically 500hrs or so life. The AB operation is really restricted by fuel capacity. If an aircraft can carry enough fuel I don't think structural life would be a bottleneck. It could be dealt with somehow, using cooling for example. Its a matter of specifying the problem in different way. Currently anyway aircrafts cant sustain AB operation by more than a few minutes, then why try to overdesign nozzle for high life..? Its rather easy to replace it as well.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya G » 05 Oct 2017 22:09

"after"burner

Zynda wrote:What about structural considerations of engine components running on full burner? Are the components rated to work at those extreme conditions longer than the fuel lasts?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -specs.htm

The above link says that normal fuel carriage in Su-30MKI is around 5300Kg. So that gives around 5300/400 = 13.25 minutes of flight time on full burner.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Oct 2017 09:10

Austin wrote:ACM on MKI upgrade program to Force Mag

What is the update on upgrade programme of the Su-30 MKI? Please tell us about the upgrade kits for these?


The contours of the comprehensive upgrade of the Su-30 MKI aircraft are being finalised. The upgrade will comprise of better radar, new avionics, EW system, and new weapons to address obsolescence.

I'm assuming the engines will be upgraded with article 30 once it is availabLe for fgfa?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 06 Oct 2017 09:26

Indranil wrote:Concorde, SR-71


supercruise or afterburner??

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby neerajb » 06 Oct 2017 10:00

As pointed out by JayS, afterburner does not put that much stress on engine as the core combustion does on combustor, diffuser/turbine nozzle/stator and turbines. Temperatures in both core and AB are high but pressure is relatively lower in AB and all fuel added goes towards increasing the exit velocity of gas ( and temperature). Following pic shows the temp/pressure profile of Kaveri.

Image

Moreover tail pipe has an inner liner with holes and bleed air from compressor flows between outer casing and inner liner and diffuses inside the tail pipe through the holes for cooling ( even though it itself is quite hot). It acts as a thermal barrier between hot gas and liner. IMO nozzle is cooled likewise. In short, the only major limiting factor is how much fuel the aircraft carries.

@Indranil

Concode only used ab from beginning of take off roll till noise abatement point and then put them back again to punch through the Sonic barrier. It didn't use them in sustained manner. Few 10s of minute each flight. If you are interested, Captain Joe on YouTube has uploaded a series of 3 videos on Concorde. Quite interesting!!!
Last edited by neerajb on 06 Oct 2017 10:56, edited 2 times in total.

Austin
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 06 Oct 2017 10:23

Cain Marko wrote:
Austin wrote:ACM on MKI upgrade program to Force Mag

I'm assuming the engines will be upgraded with article 30 once it is availabLe for fgfa?


The only underpowered engine for fighter aircraft that iaf is keen to change are the Jags. The MLU upgrade for 2K 29 and likely mki won't see an engine change

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chetak » 06 Oct 2017 10:47

per wiki

Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of a supersonic aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently, which typically precludes the use of highly inefficient afterburners (reheat). Many well known supersonic military aircraft are not capable of supercruise as they are only able to maintain supersonic flight in short bursts (typically with afterburners) while they cruise at subsonic speeds. Aircraft such as the SR-71 Blackbird are designed to cruise at supersonic speed with afterburners enabled.

One of the most prominent and well-known examples of this type of aircraft was Concorde. Due to its long service in commercial airlines, Concorde has the record for the most time spent in supercruise; it has spent more time in supercruise than all other aircraft combined..............

The Pratt & Whitney J58 engine used in the Lockheed A-12 and SR-71 Blackbird was designed for sustained operation at supersonic speeds using an afterburner. SR-71 missions were flown, with in-flight refuelling, at different combinations of speed and altitude. Maximum range cruise, with afterburner settings in the lower portion of the range, was flown about 98% of the time.


Aircraft with supercruise ability[edit]
In service:

Dassault Rafale
Eurofighter Typhoon
Gripen NG[23][24]
F-22 Raptor
Su-35[25]


Formerly in service:

English Electric Lightning[26]
SR -71 Blackbird
A-12


Prototype/experimental only:

Su-57
YF-12
BAC TSR-2
General Dynamics F-16XL
Northrop YF-23
Lockheed YF-22
North American XB-70 Valkyrie


Civilian:

Concorde[27]
Tu-144

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Suresh S » 08 Oct 2017 20:41

Questions to professors here. I thought I heard the air chief Dhanoa say at his interview 36 more Su-30 are going to come from 2019 onwards. Listen to him after 33 minutes.

https://youtu.be/7FGkxgMKl5k

We have been discussing the 36 Rafales forever and a equally important piece of info does not even get a single post.What gives?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby abhik » 08 Oct 2017 20:48

^^^
I think he was referring to the fighters that are to be delivered by 2019 under the existing contract, not new orders.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 08 Oct 2017 20:58

I don't think we'll go for new MKI orders, most probably will go with additional Rafale.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2017 09:00

Suresh S wrote:Questions to professors here. I thought I heard the air chief Dhanoa say at his interview 36 more Su-30 are going to come from 2019 onwards. Listen to him after 33 minutes.

https://youtu.be/7FGkxgMKl5k

We have been discussing the 36 Rafales forever and a equally important piece of info does not even get a single post.What gives?

Good catch. As kiliyar as kiristal

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 09 Oct 2017 10:15

thevishnusomA great look at the cockpit of an Indian Air Force Su-30, courtesy Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman. Air Force Base Tezpur. #indianairforce #military #aviation #sukhoi #cockpit #fighters

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaAwqXUBCMv/

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 09 Oct 2017 20:19

Gurus, sudden query, why does MKI's engines while on afterburner produce blue flame instead of usual yellow flames as seen on other jet engines.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 09 Oct 2017 20:32

Suresh S wrote:Questions to professors here. I thought I heard the air chief Dhanoa say at his interview 36 more Su-30 are going to come from 2019 onwards. Listen to him after 33 minutes.

https://youtu.be/7FGkxgMKl5k

We have been discussing the 36 Rafales forever and a equally important piece of info does not even get a single post.What gives?


Its not clear if he meant by additional 36 Su-30 over and above currently ordered 272 or he is referring to the remaining aircrafts out of 272 which are yet to be inducted. I think its the later. Only thing is I thought there were less than 36 Su remaining. I read 248 number of already induced Su-30 somewhere. But I still think he didn't mean by any new order. Hope the IAF will order additional Su-30 at least to make up for the losses over the years before HAL line goes cold.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2017 20:37

Karthik S wrote:Gurus, sudden query, why does MKI's engines while on afterburner produce blue flame instead of usual yellow flames as seen on other jet engines.

Colour of flame is completeness of combustion. Blue is great.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 09 Oct 2017 20:45

shiv wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Gurus, sudden query, why does MKI's engines while on afterburner produce blue flame instead of usual yellow flames as seen on other jet engines.

Colour of flame is completeness of combustion. Blue is great.


Thanks saw that difference, and also that blue flame is usually hotter than yellow flame. But thought there could be more reasons.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 09 Oct 2017 21:26

Su-30MKI w/ SPICE 2000
Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2017 22:58

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote:Colour of flame is completeness of combustion. Blue is great.


Thanks saw that difference, and also that blue flame is usually hotter than yellow flame. But thought there could be more reasons.

I have wondered about that. I think the Russians got it just right. But I suspect the F-22 (or 35??) has a blue flame too. Not sure

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Indranil » 09 Oct 2017 23:01

neerajb wrote:@Indranil

Concode only used ab from beginning of take off roll till noise abatement point and then put them back again to punch through the Sonic barrier. It didn't use them in sustained manner. Few 10s of minute each flight. If you are interested, Captain Joe on YouTube has uploaded a series of 3 videos on Concorde. Quite interesting!!!

You are right. I stand corrected.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby andy B » 09 Oct 2017 23:09

srai wrote:Su-30MKI w/ SPICE 2000
Image

Srai saar tum jiyo hazaro saal and please do keep finding and posting these gems!

Channeling GD.....roger that command ...cleared hot...this is spectre lead....laser on....pickle hammer!!!

Perfect kapiton for the above....its hammer time!

Awesome to see the good ol Rambha keeping her claws sharp as ever :twisted:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 24 Oct 2017 23:51

Russia to Upgrade India's Frontline Fighter Jet Su-30MKI Into Super Sukhoi
https://sputniknews.com/military/201710 ... i-upgrade/

IAF to Equip Su-30MKI With Advanced Radar, Missiles
http://www.india.com/news/india/iaf-pla ... s-2558945/

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 24 Oct 2017 23:53

YES!!!!!!! :twisted:

HAL To Invest Up to US$615 Million For Indian Sukhoi Spares
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21044#.We-DWtIzXmQ

India’s state-owned aircraft manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will be investing up to Rs 4,000 crore (US$615m) initially to set up components store for maintaining the air force's Sukhoi fleet.

“Availability of Sukhoi fighter aircraft is more important. The existing system is that the customer (IAF in this case) places an order on HAL which we either buy or manufacture and then supply it. It is not an efficient way of doing things. Now, if we can order in bulk and store it, we get a bulk discount too. We are looking at an initial investment of Rs 2,000 crore to Rs 4,000 crore as an initial investment depending on what one stocks,” T. Suvarna Raju, chairman and managing director, HAL told reporters on the sidelines of an event to mark the 70th anniversary of establishment of diplomatic relations between India and Russia, The Asian Age reports Monday.

A long-term agreement with Russia for the supply of spare parts and the rendering of technical assistance for five years for India's Sukhoi Su-30MKI aircraft was signed on March 17. The agreement will enable HAL to procure required spares directly from the original equipment manufacturers authorized by Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation. HAL has been manufacturing Su-30MKI under license from Russia since 2004. HAL is also responsible for after-sales support, snag disposition, on-site repair and rectification, aircraft modification, and upgrade and obsolescence management of the Indian Su-30MKI fleet.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Oct 2017 03:12

From the above quotes it seems we have ordered 42 more Su-30s

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ManuJ » 25 Oct 2017 03:17

Aditya_V wrote:From the above quotes it seems we have ordered 42 more Su-30s

There's no ambiguity in the news report:
IAF has already ordered 42 more Su-30MKIs increasing the number of fighter from 272 to 314.

Aditya_V
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Oct 2017 03:18

Suresh S wrote:Questions to professors here. I thought I heard the air chief Dhanoa say at his interview 36 more Su-30 are going to come from 2019 onwards. Listen to him after 33 minutes.

https://youtu.be/7FGkxgMKl5k

We have been discussing the 36 Rafales forever and a equally important piece of info does not even get a single post.What gives?

Unfortunately it also has Air chief talking of numbers going up.only when SE fighters under strategic partnership come in

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Oct 2017 07:04

ManuJ wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:From the above quotes it seems we have ordered 42 more Su-30s

There's no ambiguity in the news report:
IAF has already ordered 42 more Su-30MKIs increasing the number of fighter from 272 to 314.

What quote saars? My eyes didn't see anything in that article to suggest additional 40 nos although there were reports a couple of years ago that this was a done deal. Great news if true.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 25 Oct 2017 11:34

CM,
the 42 on top of 272 which makes it 314.

A Deshmukh
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby A Deshmukh » 25 Oct 2017 12:16

http://www.india.com/news/india/iaf-plans-to-upgrade-su-30mki-fighters-with-advanced-radar-missiles-2558945/
second to last para.
IAF has already ordered 42 more Su-30MKIs increasing the number of fighter from 272 to 314.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya G » 25 Oct 2017 12:55

Additional Su-30s is the right thing to do as bureaucratic inefficiencies at MoD prevent speedy induction of other platforms.

I would like to see the Su-30 production setup to convert to FGFA so that there is one line of fighters from russian ecosystem ongoing.

Produce Rafale on another line and Tejas on the third one.

Combined these could easily add 24 (8x3) fighters every year.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Singha » 25 Oct 2017 13:55

the shape of the spice2000 indicates a bunker busting role - long and slim with a very hard alloy case probably

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2017 19:16

Another 40+ MKIs and 200+ brought up to SS std.will be a huge capability.The LR AAMs,new engines and large AESA radar able to deal with any PLAAF SU-35s .Ar $6 B for all 200-300+ upgrades,works out to $20-25M a bird v.reasonable for such deep upgrades when compared with M2K upgrades at double the price.Are these extra MKIs coming by 2020 though?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Viv S » 25 Oct 2017 19:45

Aditya_V wrote:From the above quotes it seems we have ordered 42 more Su-30s

I believe the journo has confused it with the last order placed by the IAF that took the total to 272 - two new squadrons plus 2 attrition replacements.

A new Su-30 order will likely consist of 40+3 units.

Philip
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2017 19:52

I'getting confused anout the xtra 40+.Earlier thought that it was the last batch of the 272 as we have reportedly 230 or so MKIs right now.But MP's MKI options and statements about the extra 40+ from time to time is confusing.Some analysts also recommending up to 80 more to counter China add to the confusion.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 25 Oct 2017 21:29

srai wrote:Su-30MKI w/ SPICE 2000
Image



SPICE 2000 is a 2000 lb or 907 kg bomb.

Which one is this?
Does IAF have 2000 lb bombs in inventory?

DRDO was working on such a weapon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice_(bomb)


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