Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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manjgu
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by manjgu »

Phillip... contrary to what i have read/heard ..TVC is of little use in air combat.. with a plane in combat configuration many of the stunts attributed to TVC cant be done. but i am really no expert on this matter !
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Karan M »

TVC combined with HMCS makes the Su-30 very dangerous in WVR. It can be used till high subsonic too. I wont be surprised if IAF has used its ability to effect rapid changes in direction, in missile evasion tactics as well.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

manjgu wrote:Phillip... contrary to what i have read/heard ..TVC is of little use in air combat.. with a plane in combat configuration many of the stunts attributed to TVC cant be done. but i am really no expert on this matter !

Those stunts are for air combat not just air shows.

They show the tremendous agility for a heavy aircraft and give an idea of energy.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Aditya_V »

Karan M wrote:TVC combined with HMCS makes the Su-30 very dangerous in WVR. It can be used till high subsonic too. I wont be surprised if IAF has used its ability to effect rapid changes in direction, in missile evasion tactics as well.
That s how a Su 30MKi dodged 5 Amraams on 27 Feb 19?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by manjgu »

Aditya_V wrote:
Karan M wrote:TVC combined with HMCS makes the Su-30 very dangerous in WVR. It can be used till high subsonic too. I wont be surprised if IAF has used its ability to effect rapid changes in direction, in missile evasion tactics as well.
That s how a Su 30MKi dodged 5 Amraams on 27 Feb 19?
:mrgreen:
manjgu
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by manjgu »

ramana wrote:
manjgu wrote:Phillip... contrary to what i have read/heard ..TVC is of little use in air combat.. with a plane in combat configuration many of the stunts attributed to TVC cant be done. but i am really no expert on this matter !

Those stunts are for air combat not just air shows.

They show the tremendous agility for a heavy aircraft and give an idea of energy.

i think they help improve pilot skills/ confidence in his machine. surely it gives an idea of energy. the question is how useful is it in actual combat? with all missiles, pods , bombs, drop tanks hanging below !
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by gpurewal »

manjgu wrote:
ramana wrote:

Those stunts are for air combat not just air shows.

They show the tremendous agility for a heavy aircraft and give an idea of energy.

i think they help improve pilot skills/ confidence in his machine. surely it gives an idea of energy. the question is how useful is it in actual combat? with all missiles, pods , bombs, drop tanks hanging below !
Just think about the turning radius. With TVC the turning radius is smaller, hence the pilot is able to put themselves into a more advantageous position in a dogfight. If a dogfight does occur, the pilot will most likely jettison the drop tanks at least, for more manoeuvrability, and depending on the type of ordinance , they might be dropped as well (I believe they will jettison a air launched Brahmos if they had to, in order to save the jet $$ vs $$$$), so just the necessary AAMs are loaded.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ragupta »

Super Sukhoi upgrade by just use of lighter component with power efficient components can distribute power efficiently to keep it relevant with the same engine for entire life of current generation Sukhoi.

Part of the fleet must be upgraded with higher power engines AL-41 for heavier load like 36 to 72 numbers.

After the upgrade start thinking of making HCA with 150KN class engines.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

manjgu wrote:Phillip... contrary to what i have read/heard ..TVC is of little use in air combat.. with a plane in combat configuration many of the stunts attributed to TVC cant be done. but i am really no expert on this matter !
IAF Gp Capt Anurag Sharma says ...

Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview
How you rate the Su-30 in the following categories?

“A. Instantaneous turn– at high speeds, a shade slow, but once you get her to 650-709 Kmph- as goos as any. With thrust vectoring- unparalleled!

B. Sustained turn– depends upon the load and altitude. At medium altitudes with AA loads only very good and matches any other 4/5 gen fighter ac.

C. High alpha- Exceptional! Requires skill but once you know what to do- she’s a beauty!
Is TVC useful in air combat? If so, how should it be used?
“Most people think that it’s not! My suspicion is that’s because it requires skill to put it to good use. Once two beasts of this kind engage in combat, it goes down to the wire and in the low speed regime the TVC allows you just the edge you’ve been looking for. Just 300m is enough to get to the right angle and Boom!”
How much post-stall manoeuvring can the average squadron pilot do? Is this a rare skill?
“Independent manoeuvres – they do it from day one (it’s that easy!). Relative manoeuvring in relation to an adversary in the sky requires extensive training and skill development! The manoeuvres can be counter productive in not done correctly.”

What is the hardest manoeuvre to pull off in a Su-30?
“A downward combat manoeuvre with TVC at low levels against a manoeuvring target.”
How good is the helmet mounted sight – is it used much in air-to-air training?
“Very good! It allows off bore targeting and that coupled with TVC gives a good angular advantage to the Su-30 in combat!”
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by manjgu »

thnx..would it be correct to assume then that TVC is useful in a WVR fight?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by brar_w »

For the Super Sukhoi upgrades, are their any desired timelines that have been officially released or proposed by senior IAF officials? When do they plan on getting started (or at least when will it be optimal) and when will the entire fleet cycle through?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by chetak »

manjgu wrote:thnx..would it be correct to assume then that TVC is useful in a WVR fight?
the opposition gets used to it very quickly, even if they have come up against the TVC just once and walked away to tell the tale.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

manjgu wrote:thnx..would it be correct to assume then that TVC is useful in a WVR fight?
Beyond combat, there are other benefits. You might want to read a TVN study done for Eurofighter.

Eurojet pushes thrust-vectoring technology for Typhoon
...

Having demonstrated the mechanics of the concept in extensive benchtests, the engine consortium is trying to secure funds to fly its thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) on a flight demonstrator. This, it believes, would provide data to back up its claims that TVN could reduce fuel burn on a typical Typhoon mission by up to 5%, as well as increase available thrust in supercruise by up to 7% and take-off thrust by 2%.

...
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

manjgu wrote:...

the question is how useful is it in actual combat? with all missiles, pods , bombs, drop tanks hanging below !
If you are configured for ground strike mission, you don’t want to be doing air-to-air combat until unless you jettison your non-A2A load. In full A2G load out, you are equivalent to a bomb truck limited to 4.5G and high subsonic regimes.

That’s why you have A2A escorts optimized for air combat. If they fail to keep the adversary at bay, then A2G loaded aircrafts need to bug out (abandon mission, possibly eject stores and make their escape).
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cain Marko »

manjgu wrote:thnx..would it be correct to assume then that TVC is useful in a WVR fight?
Not just WVR. BVR too - iirc there was some comment by an MKI driver in one of the dact exercises. Perhaps Karan can confirm, my memory is not the best. In any case, I believe the TSPAF found out after Balakot with 6 Amraams going waste.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Aditya_V »

Cain Marko wrote:
manjgu wrote:thnx..would it be correct to assume then that TVC is useful in a WVR fight?
Not just WVR. BVR too - iirc there was some comment by an MKI driver in one of the dact exercises. Perhaps Karan can confirm, my memory is not the best. In any case, I believe the TSPAF found out after Balakot with 6 Amraams going waste.
6th wasted Amraam was fired at Sqn Ldr Vyas retreating Mig 21 Bison which had 1 minute head start with Afterburners, so the Missile could never catch up. 5 were fired at Avenger -1
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ArjunPandit »

Aditya_V wrote: 6th wasted Amraam was fired at Sqn Ldr Vyas retreating Mig 21 Bison which had 1 minute head start with Afterburners, so the Missile could never catch up. 5 were fired at Avenger -1
Great job in bringing down the operational pk by IAF
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 93728?s=20 ---> IAF has Inducted 268 Su-30MKI aircraft out of 272 order. 9 lost in crashes, current fleet at 259. Indian Air Force will order 12 Su-30MKI more now. 04 pending from previous order.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by D.Mahesh »

IAF's experience with TVC is >> & prob'ly greater than that of all other AFs combined. 100x150x15 flying hours with at least 10% of that in TVC. With so much in the logbook, IAF is not going to talk about it. It's one thing for Massa & AlLies blanket the skies of some poor sod's land with overwhelming air supremacy and let loose mijjles. Another thing entirely for a poor nation, poorly trained AF using v.v.v.expensive Massa supplied toys for going against arguably the best DACT guys in the business today.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 96070?s=20 ---> HAL CMD: We have proposed an Indigenous Upgrade Program for the Su-30MKI aircraft to the Indian Air Force and has been pursuing with Air HQ for go ahead for the project. -via @ReviewVayu

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

^^^
Missing are
  • MAWS
  • SPJ
V_Raman
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by V_Raman »

what is the proposed radar? russian or indian or something else?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by sajaym »

From the above citation, are we to understand that the drogue caused a sudden change in the wake airflow which overwhelmed the FBW and caused it to go haywire?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Aditya_V »

sajaym wrote:From the above citation, are we to understand that the drogue caused a sudden change in the wake airflow which overwhelmed the FBW and caused it to go haywire?
I think the retractable refuelling probe in the aircraft collapsed and was poking out horizontally, thus leading to a fuel situation and affecting FBW.

One of the Rafale team designers mentioned why they went for a non retractable refuelling probe since it avoids a lot of issues due to moving parts.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Karan M »

sajaym wrote:From the above citation, are we to understand that the drogue caused a sudden change in the wake airflow which overwhelmed the FBW and caused it to go haywire?
Not likely. The drogue likely clipped one of the sensors, like the AoA ones and caused the FBW to go out of kilter.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cain Marko »

srai wrote:^^^
Missing are
  • MAWS
  • SPJ
Wouldn't the EW suite cover that?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

^^^
EW suite only shows [digital] RWR set in that diagram.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ashishvikas »

HAL completes Sukhoi order, last two jets to roll out soon

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

ashishvikas wrote:HAL completes Sukhoi order, last two jets to roll out soon

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
12 more attrition replacements on the cards, but can be done with smaller line spread over a few years

As Su-30MKI production winds down, LCA/MWF transition will occur.


Interesting bits in the article
...

While the Sukhoi assembly line would largely wind down, the Aircraft Overhaul Division at Nasik would continue the repair and overhaul of the MiG series and the Su-30s. Over the years, HAL has developed over 2000 Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSME) vendor base for the Sukhoi project.

HAL is now in the process of ramping its capacity to overhaul the SU-30MKIs from 15 aircraft per year to 25.

Major upgrade programme

A major upgrade programme for the entire fleet is under negotiation with Russia to give the aircraft better radar, avionics and weapons among others. Initially, it was envisaged that all upgrades would be incorporated per aircraft at one go but given the cost and time that it would take to cover the entire fleet, the IAF has decided to go for capability upgrades in phases. “Some of the most pressing upgrades would be taken up in the first phase,” the defence official said and some of the modifications being pursued locally are already under way.

...
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by nachiket »

srai wrote:^^^
Missing are
  • MAWS
  • SPJ
SPJ will have to be podded. Perhaps a larger version of DARE's jamming pod which we saw a while ago to replace the SAP-518's.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 23650?s=20 ---> Additional 12 Su-30MKI order: "Russians have quoted a very high (price) and negotiations are under way," says a defence official.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Nambitiger1/status/ ... 75745?s=20 ---> The Su-30 nose wheel looks bigger than the LCA main wheel!

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by LakshmanPST »

ashishvikas wrote:HAL completes Sukhoi order, last two jets to roll out soon

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
Can we expect the 13th Su30 squadron to be raised soon...???
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by JayS »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Nambitiger1/status/ ... 75745?s=20 ---> The Su-30 nose wheel looks bigger than the LCA main wheel!
The difference in sizes of the Aircrafts aside, the Russian Landing Gears have always been on the heavier side compared to the Western counterparts for example.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 74116?s=20 ---> Neat shots of the RLSU for the Su-30MKI at the HAL stand.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 79937?s=20 ---> Superb pics of the massive RLSU on the Su-30. Before the radar wars begin, a quick note, range depends on mode and target RCS. Wouldn't worry about it given what it's capable of, public sanitised pics apart. AESA poster behind is also an indication of how things may shape up.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ArjunPandit »

on a lighter note is the placard from FSU? looks like it has been taken out from a museum or has spent long time
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

srai
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by srai »

DD take note
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