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Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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srai
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 26 Oct 2017 05:51

ramana wrote:
srai wrote:Su-30MKI w/ SPICE 2000
Image



SPICE 2000 is a 2000 lb or 907 kg bomb.

Which one is this?
Does IAF have 2000 lb bombs in inventory?

...


Rafael: Spice 1000/2000 Brochure
Kit Concept

Spice-2000 consists of an add-on kit for warheads such as the MK-84, BLU-109, APW and RAP-2000.

Spice-1000 consists of an add-on kit for warheads such as the MK-83, BLU-110, I-1000 and RAP-1000. The weapon has unique deployable wings that substantially increase its range and facilitate the integration to light fighter aircraft.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Oct 2017 22:35

A Deshmukh wrote:
http://www.india.com/news/india/iaf-plans-to-upgrade-su-30mki-fighters-with-advanced-radar-missiles-2558945/
second to last para.
IAF has already ordered 42 more Su-30MKIs increasing the number of fighter from 272 to 314.


Aah , yes thanks.

ramana wrote:CM,
the 42 on top of 272 which makes it 314.


Thanks Ramanaji. I think however that the order hasn't actually been placed yet. There would have been plenty of media coverage. Viv (see below) is on the spot here I believe.

Viv S wrote:I believe the journo has confused it with the last order placed by the IAF that took the total to 272 - two new squadrons plus 2 attrition replacements.

A new Su-30 order will likely consist of 40+3 units.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Oct 2017 22:38

Aditya G wrote:Additional Su-30s is the right thing to do as bureaucratic inefficiencies at MoD prevent speedy induction of other platforms.

I would like to see the Su-30 production setup to convert to FGFA so that there is one line of fighters from russian ecosystem ongoing.

Produce Rafale on another line and Tejas on the third one.

Combined these could easily add 24 (8x3) fighters every year.


I'm not so sure about fgfa although it's quite likely. However we may see a direct purchase of some pakfa instead of additional su30 mkis until HAL gears up for the fgfa or pakfa mki

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Oct 2017 12:29

@ INDRA 2017 Indian and Russian Pilots learning from each other

Image
Image
Image
Image

https://twitter.com/hashtag/INDRA2017?src=hash

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Oct 2017 12:31

Video: Russian & Indian Pilots Flying the Russian Flanker

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/923167381697978371

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Oct 2017 14:05

Russia offers defence technology to India without any strings attached

Russia's technology transfers to India in the defence sector have been without any strings attached and there is scope for further deepening the military ties.

Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force Air Marshal S B Deo today said."When it comes to technology transfer, Russia really offers everything they have from the heart without any strings attached," Deo said at an event to celebrate 70 years of diplomatic ties between India and Russia.

Noting that there was scope for expansion of India's defence ties with Russia, Air Marshal Deo also said the relationship should be developed focusing more on commercial aspects.

"The time has come for the relationship to be more on a commercial basis. It can be a win-win situation for both Russia and India," he said.


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 29 Oct 2017 14:23

India Russian pilots flying Flanker at INDRA 17



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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srin » 29 Oct 2017 17:26

^^^ what are they flying ? Is it the Su-27 or the Su-35 ? I don't see canards, so it can't be Su-30SM

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 30 Oct 2017 15:07

srin wrote:^^^ what are they flying ? Is it the Su-27 or the Su-35 ? I don't see canards, so it can't be Su-30SM


Su-30K

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby SaiK » 31 Oct 2017 07:29

https://youtu.be/hcP-6lHn3fQ

Sukhoi Su-30SM (MKI based)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Nov 2017 20:54

Different display by Su-35 at Dubai Air Show


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 13 Nov 2017 02:05

Austin wrote:Russia offers defence technology to India without any strings attached

Russia's technology transfers to India in the defence sector have been without any strings attached and there is scope for further deepening the military ties.

Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force Air Marshal S B Deo today said."When it comes to technology transfer, Russia really offers everything they have from the heart without any strings attached," Deo said at an event to celebrate 70 years of diplomatic ties between India and Russia.

Noting that there was scope for expansion of India's defence ties with Russia, Air Marshal Deo also said the relationship should be developed focusing more on commercial aspects.

"The time has come for the relationship to be more on a commercial basis. It can be a win-win situation for both Russia and India," he said.




What does last line mean?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 13 Nov 2017 07:27

Austin wrote:Different display by Su-35 at Dubai Air Show


Un frickin believable.

Of course - the plane is flying "clean" and obviously has a T/W ratio of >1 in this demo. No plane can float on its musharraf otherwise.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2017 10:20

ramana wrote:



What does last line mean?


Joint Production Development & Exports --- > commercial nature

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2017 10:21

More pictures of India Russia Crew flying the Su-30 at Indra

Russian-Indian crews climbed sky for the first time in the history of Russian aerospace industry

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2946014.html

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 13 Nov 2017 10:28

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:Different display by Su-35 at Dubai Air Show


Un frickin believable.

Of course - the plane is flying "clean" and obviously has a T/W ratio of >1 in this demo. No plane can float on its musharraf otherwise.


Shiv ji, in WVR scenario, wouldn't the plane fly relatively clean? After using up most of its missiles if not all.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2017 10:59

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:Different display by Su-35 at Dubai Air Show


Un frickin believable.

Of course - the plane is flying "clean" and obviously has a T/W ratio of >1 in this demo. No plane can float on its musharraf otherwise.


In was a 1993 iirc paris airshow that a fully loaded flanker demonstrated full aerobatics when people were complaining of such aerobatic was only possible with clean design , That flanker was on the cover page of Vayu Magazine.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2017 15:43

Russian Knights Perform Aerobatics with Sukhoi Su-30SM Fighters at Dubai Airshow , This is the same aircraft as Su-30MKI


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Nov 2017 15:45

[quote="Austin"]Russian Knights Perform Aerobatics with Sukhoi Su-30SM Fighters at Dubai Airshow , This is the same aircraft as Su-30MKI

Except For some Israeli electronics we have put in there along with Sextant LCD's.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 13 Nov 2017 18:51

Karthik S wrote:
Shiv ji, in WVR scenario, wouldn't the plane fly relatively clean? After using up most of its missiles if not all.

No I don't mean it that way. The ballet was incomparably beautiful - not be spoiled by underwing/underbelly stores. In a combat situation with 1/2 fuel and fewer stores it would still perform well but some of those manoeuvres were not meant for combat - they were meant for show. That is what I mean. A plane hovering at near vertical nose up attitude in one place without moving for 8-10 seconds is dramatic but not necessarily a great combat tactic.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 13 Nov 2017 22:58

So what is stopping IAF from ordering more Su-30s to make up the 42 squadron requirement?
Plane is proven , already in IAF service and HAL and supply chain is already past the learning curve.

What is HAL rate of production of Su-30MKIs?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Katare » 13 Nov 2017 23:11

Too expensive to operate and unsolved reliability problems
JMHO

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2017 23:51

ramana wrote:So what is stopping IAF from ordering more Su-30s to make up the 42 squadron requirement?
Plane is proven , already in IAF service and HAL and supply chain is already past the learning curve.

What is HAL rate of production of Su-30MKIs?


For the same reason why you wont order any single type , it would be top heavy or top light , MKI would perhaps be the largest heavy aircraft type in IAF history in such numbers perhaps second only to Mig-21 in terms of squadron service.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya G » 14 Nov 2017 00:29

Austin wrote:
ramana wrote:So what is stopping IAF from ordering more Su-30s to make up the 42 squadron requirement?
Plane is proven , already in IAF service and HAL and supply chain is already past the learning curve.

What is HAL rate of production of Su-30MKIs?


For the same reason why you wont order any single type , it would be top heavy or top light , MKI would perhaps be the largest heavy aircraft type in IAF history in such numbers perhaps second only to Mig-21 in terms of squadron service.


I dont see why above is a problem. In our procurement "system", it is much easier to order more of an existing type rather than a new aircraft. The way i see it the choice is b/w 42 Su-30MKIs or 3 number plated squadrons.

@8/year this new order can keep HAL works buzzing for another 5 years.

Su-30MKI is an investment that has borne fruit, pragmatism demands that we acquire more.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2017 00:31

I think IAF is the only force that has luxury of multiple types of aircraft. anywhere else they have standard set of aircraft to reduce the logistics trail and many other issues.

Katare, Why not work on reducing the issues?

Is the issue is how to get to 42 squadrons quickly and affordably or is the later not germane to IAF?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2017 00:55

ramana wrote:So what is stopping IAF from ordering more Su-30s to make up the 42 squadron requirement?
Plane is proven , already in IAF service and HAL and supply chain is already past the learning curve.

What is HAL rate of production of Su-30MKIs?


12/yr.

IAF should not have any objection to adding 3-5 mpre Sq of Su-30. In fact 3sq equipped with Brahmos kept at A&N under the IAF-IN joint command, could keep a large portion of Indian Ocean and entire SE Asian region sanitized. That should relieve pressure off IN as well until we properly equipp our Navy.

With HAL investing some 3000Cr in Spares depot a d many deals signed with Russians on MRO side, we should be in much better shape now. And we can always push for more indigenization in spares. Volumes would entice SMEs into supply chain. If GOI wants to, MRO should not be an issue. Aim for 75-80% availability.

About Operational cost, the overhead should be compensated for by elimination of need to establish bases and logistics for a new type of fighter. Plus Su30 are cheaper to acquire. We are relatively in better shape as far as strategic independence for modification and maintainance of the fleet is concerned as compared to any other available option, due to our involvement in developing MKI version and the extensive level of localization of manufacturing. Any new fighter will take decades to reach that level.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2017 01:27

Can you put this in the rebuttal article?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 14 Nov 2017 04:33

Just a quick note mentioned elsewhere, Koraput has delivered the 50th engine made with 100% local raw materials .Over 350 engines have been delivered by it.This is a huge achievement manufacturing these large TVC engines ,now totally Desi,hugely increasing the local content of the MKI which was earlier reported as being 70% when MP was DM.

Other analysts have also advocated buying more MKIs available at a price of just $70M when compared with other firang fighters.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby fanne » 14 Nov 2017 05:39

The solution for IAF pain is in sight, but to get more Rafale, IAF will neither buy more SU30MKI or LCA. Plan A (there is no plan B), don't buy anything, let the number fall and force the govt to buy more Rafale. Rafale na hua, chand ka tukda ho gaya.
The three reasons for not buying more SU30MKI are
1. IAF will be top heavy, no AF is - Academic argument with no merit. There is no completion where someone is measuring the bottom or top heaviness of an AF
2.More Capex, double engine, more fuel more pilot. Agreed, but beats being less in number and thus losing war and territory. Having a AF is costly. Besides, GOI pays for it, not IAF. Also the CAPEX is marginal, it does not effect any capital acquisition of IAF. Pilot shortage can be solved, actually IAF is already doing it, let the WSO be a non-pilot.
3.Aviability - Invest in spares, more on the line of Mirage 2000 maintenance (Mirage 2000 was 2/3 in number of Mig 29, but its maintenance budget was 3 times of Mig 29, no wonder it had availability of over 90% compared to 60% of Mig 29)

I would say increase the number of SU30MKI holding to 400 planes (20 sq). That solves many of IAF problem. Also with increased number, negotiate a better deal with Russia where more of our/3rd party stuff is allowed, local spares are allowed without voiding the warranty etc. etc.). With 400 MKI both China and TSP will think twice.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2017 05:56

How about hiring more women pilots to take care of shortage?

I would also start a jet engine replacement program for those planes.

JayS or maitya,
What are replacement specs for the SU-30?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 14 Nov 2017 07:54

I have always wondered about the top heavy part of the IAF. When you have to operate over Tibet and you need the range and payload to operate over it. Then you will need a long-legged work horse that has the ability to carry the pay lode needed to hit the enemy hard. in that respect the SU 30 is the ideal jet. No so called medium fighter can do the job.

I mean we have had cases where the chand ka tukda had to land in Corsica after having taken off from main land France for the Libyan campaign. While carrying EFT and miniscule payloads.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2017 09:08

ramana wrote:How about hiring more women pilots to take care of shortage?

I would also start a jet engine replacement program for those planes.

JayS or maitya,
What are replacement specs for the SU-30?


I don't think we are short on Men available for piloting jets.. :D
If the plan is to buy more Su-30, GOI can always proportionally hike the sanctioned pilot strength.

replacement specs..?

I would say, go with Al41F or whichever engine FGFA will have (if we are planning to buy it). Su-30 is the backbone of our AF. We should go with a low risk path for upgrades. I do not think bringing in American engine is a good idea (unless we are getting F119 perhaps :wink: ). Too much work. Too much diversification. Too much dependance. Stick to organic growth path. Its much easier to ask for localization of MFG from Russians for Al41.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby deejay » 14 Nov 2017 09:26

ramana wrote:I think IAF is the only force that has luxury of multiple types of aircraft. anywhere else they have standard set of aircraft to reduce the logistics trail and many other issues.

Katare, Why not work on reducing the issues?

Is the issue is how to get to 42 squadrons quickly and affordably or is the later not germane to IAF?


Which comparable Air Force?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 14 Nov 2017 09:44

Aditya G wrote:
Austin wrote:
For the same reason why you wont order any single type , it would be top heavy or top light , MKI would perhaps be the largest heavy aircraft type in IAF history in such numbers perhaps second only to Mig-21 in terms of squadron service.


I dont see why above is a problem. In our procurement "system", it is much easier to order more of an existing type rather than a new aircraft.

Think lifetime operating costs.

For example the Su-30 guzzles more fuel than any other fighter simply because of size and weight.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 14 Nov 2017 09:47

deejay wrote:
ramana wrote:I think IAF is the only force that has luxury of multiple types of aircraft. anywhere else they have standard set of aircraft to reduce the logistics trail and many other issues.

Katare, Why not work on reducing the issues?

Is the issue is how to get to 42 squadrons quickly and affordably or is the later not germane to IAF?


Which comparable Air Force?

True that. I think this "too many types" is an overused bogey and a weak one at that. Huge air forces that operate over large areas can and do maintain a multiplicity of types. Only small air arms of small nations try to narrow down. I can expand on this if anyone wants - but it will be a repeat of what I said several months ago.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Nov 2017 09:48

ramana wrote:So what is stopping IAF from ordering more Su-30s to make up the 42 squadron requirement?
Plane is proven , already in IAF service and HAL and supply chain is already past the learning curve.

What is HAL rate of production of Su-30MKIs?


I have a slightly different take on this.... Nothing is stopping the IAF, in fact they very well know that both the mki and the LCA are the default acquisitions, quite unavoidable, especially the latter. BUT since the GOI his dangling fancy fighters before it's eyes, why not try to get something a wee juicier?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 14 Nov 2017 09:53

I'd rather go for additional Rafales than MKIs. With 270 MKIs, we have more air superiority 4th Gen fighters than even the US that has about 200 odd F-15s. We need fighters with true A2G capability such as the F-15E. IIRC during the MRCA saga, read somewhere that A2G was top priority rather than an air superiority fighter than can also do A2G.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Nov 2017 09:56

I thought mki is multirole and brfites often Tom Tom it's virtues over the su34, which is more ground attack oriented.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Nihat » 14 Nov 2017 11:30

Could someone explain to me exactly why a top-heavy air force is a bad thing, especially for India. We have the need to conduct strikes deep into the Western frontier on the one side and a vast and mountainous terrain to defend on the eastern front. Additionally, the need to defend IOR and A&N, which are witnessing increasing incursions by the Chinese and ever increasing economic interests and threats near the Horn of Africa.

I always assumed that the idea of the IAF was to create a structured force with Su-30 as the mainstay and LCA as the 'point defence' aircraft. Whatever happened to that idea.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 14 Nov 2017 11:35

Cost. No major air force can afford to be top-heavy. You can compare the number of F-16s and F-15s in the USAF as well.


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