Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 18 May 2018 09:04

Chinmay wrote:
Ramana sir, I am aware that the testing and integration of non-OEM equipment will be prolonged. However, we do have experience integrating non-Russian equipment on Russian aircraft, especially with the Su-30. My query is that if the Russian radar is not up to the mark, then would it be worthwhile to integrate a superior non-Russian radar, instead of waiting for the Russians to improve their kit?[/quote]

Russian radar is not up to the mark !! in what sense ??? to quote " N011M is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays."

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 May 2018 14:53

Cain Marko wrote:What guarantee do we have that the EL 2052 is up to the mark compared to say, the NO 36? How many fighters are equipped with it worldwide?

It has won two pretty stringent Indian competitions - the Jaguar DARIN3 and Tejas Mk1A. The Tejas Mk1A AESA RFP was sent to ROE who didn't put NO36 in the competition. Even the IAF team for PAKFA/FGFA was denied access.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 18 May 2018 16:24

There was no completion for Darin III and lca for 2052. No one was willing to offer us aesa. We shopped and shopped, mother Russia did not have, us wont let the Israelis. Then Rafael happen and we had the Aesa. Israelis were now free to offer, they put a wiered condition. Two types of plane should have- we chose jags and lca of course. Again for lca elta played hardball, we went with world wide RFI, got credible French effort. It has perhaps removed whatever was stopping 2052 in a way we wanted it.

The above does noes not make it better than current su30mki radar

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 May 2018 16:26

Cain Marko wrote:What guarantee do we have that the EL 2052 is up to the mark compared to say, the NO 36? How many fighters are equipped with it worldwide?

Counting the Jaguar prototype flown last year, 1 more that N036.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 May 2018 23:05

fanne wrote:There was no completion for Darin III and lca for 2052. No one was willing to offer us aesa. We shopped and shopped, mother Russia did not have, us wont let the Israelis. Then Rafael happen and we had the Aesa. Israelis were now free to offer, they put a wiered condition. Two types of plane should have- we chose jags and lca of course. Again for lca elta played hardball, we went with world wide RFI, got credible French effort. It has perhaps removed whatever was stopping 2052 in a way we wanted it.

You're terribly misinformed - sprinkling two facts with lots of speculation

fanne wrote:The above does noes not make it better than current su30mki radar

How does your speculation on procurement process translate into proving superiority of technical performance of one over another?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 May 2018 23:10

BTW has N036 has even been offered for the upgrade?

The present proposal is just to keep the Nashik line going.

A better option would be converting it to Tejas @ 16 per annum. That way Bangalore and Nashik can add two squadrons per year with production moving to Mk2, AMCA over time.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 May 2018 00:18

+1 to that idea of converting Nashik line to Tejas.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 May 2018 09:50

tsarkar wrote:BTW has N036 has even been offered for the upgrade?

NIIP keeps pushing AESA as a 2nd step., while first is a Bars upgrade. IAF wants AESA instead. The mismatch between customer expectations and what Russia is offering, clearly indicates (to my mind at least), that despite the obvious geopolitical advantages of buying Russian (no BS on HR/NGO/Ford this that).. the IAF is no longer a captive market for the Russians. If anyone gives a better deal (e.g. Israel), IAF will seriously evaluate it. It would be even better to open the funding spigot for Uttam and see what an all-up design can seriously achieve. If we get a range increase over Bars (say 30%), plus AESA advantages (ECCM, reliability), then its anyday preferable. I can't believe how stupidly, penny pinching we are, without even having a properly funded AESA FCR program or an inhouse large scale fab, or even a fighter test-bed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2018 10:03

The IAF has never stated really if it wants an AESA or a BARS upgrade , it is wrong to say IAF wants AESA on Su-30 unless you can show any IAF chief or senior office stating that. An AESA upgrade would be a damn expensive one something IAF wont be able to afford on all its ~ 280 Su fighter and these are not even new airframes , From Ajai Shukla interview an upgrade of Rs 100 crore for each aircraft gives you an idea that this not high end upgrade but simply improve what exist and add some features that does not exisit now.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2018 10:24

Radar Su-30 spotted the Chinese invisible aircraft

Indian pilots on Su-30MKI fighters to observe the flight of the Chinese fifth-generation fighter J-20 over Tibet, reported at the headquarters of the Indian Air Force.In January 2018, airplanes with J-10 and J-11 fighter jets flying over the mountainous areas deployed at airbases in the border areas of China. Indian pilots on Russian Su-30MKI aircraft watched the maneuvers of invisible aircraft from their airspace

The Sukhoi radar sees them. New Chinese aircraft are not so invisible. To detect them, no special technologies are required, the J-20 is also recognized by conventional radar systems, "said Arun Shah, Commander of the Indian Air Force. In the opinion of Indian military leaders, one of the goals of the exercises of Chinese aviation in the border areas is to study the Indian air defense system and search for routes of covert penetration into the adjacent territory.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 19 May 2018 16:40

The current SU30MKI radars are good no sorry great. It can detect the best our adversary can put for the next 20 years. What is the rudali about AESA? SU30MKI can use many things in upgrade (and Super Sukhoi upgrade can be in stages, where later stages are radar and engines), starting with many EW stuff, a super reliable long range BVRAM. That should be the focus.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 May 2018 19:16

Austin wrote:The IAF has never stated really if it wants an AESA or a BARS upgrade , it is wrong to say IAF wants AESA on Su-30 unless you can show any IAF chief or senior office stating that. An AESA upgrade would be a damn expensive one something IAF wont be able to afford on all its ~ 280 Su fighter and these are not even new airframes , From Ajai Shukla interview an upgrade of Rs 100 crore for each aircraft gives you an idea that this not high end upgrade but simply improve what exist and add some features that does not exisit now.

Austin, you have to be on a different planet if you cant make out how badly IAF wants AESA, from the Rafale to the much reviled LCA, all deals got a fillip because of AESA units.

The IAF has repeatedly expressed its desire to have AESA units on its frontline fighters wherever possible, and its widely reported IAF even evaluated the Zhuk AESA to see if it was ready and could supplant the Bars.

Dont get taken in by Russian propaganda about how great the PESA path is. Wherever possible they sre jumping to AESA too.

The advantages in power optimization, ECCM, reliability speak for themselves.

DRDO itself has seen the writing on the wall and firmly moved to AESA. The IAF will do all it can to stick to the latest technology in its upgrades.
Bars/Irbis are powerful but evolutionary limits have caught up.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2018 20:21

The IAF never sought AESA on either Mig-29UPG or M2K upgrade if they wanted one which are highly capable platform they would have got from Israel or French route , So if IAF wants AESA for MKI they can always get it from the same route but I havent come across any official interview from IAF or Russian side that says they would want an AESA . If AESA was such a magical wonder M2K would have been the first to get in the upgrade which is also the most expensive one for a fleet of 40 and M2K are still used for Strategic purpose before Rafale takes over as and when they come.

The BARS are very capable and easily have a decade of life left even in current Mk4 which itself were constantly upgraded , What they are proposing and highly likely we would see is BARS getting upgraded to Irbis standard with the entire back end geting replaced except for the main antenna so that in future an AESA can be added if required , This would essentially give BARS double the average power output and peak power of 20Kw like Irbis

Considering IAF is spending just 100 cr on each upgrade of ~ USD 16 million there is little hope in hell we will get AESA and all the bells and whistles if they are looking at fleet wide upgrade of 280 Aircraft , that also comes to around $4.5 - 5 billion just for the upgrade.

I would rather see they get something more important like a desi MAWS , DRFM based interal Jammers and heavy pod mounted growler type external one , ESM with LPI capability , Towed Decoys , DIRCM , Upgrade IRST , DARE MMI and Sensor fusion and integration of all the weapons that IAF has and will have in the future including French ones we could have for Rafale like Meteor ....an AESA along with Engine upgrade would be the last good thing to have both are damn expensive component of upgrade ....Considering the fleet wide availability of Data links and AWACS , MKI would still get a big tactical picture from multiple asset.

I would bet every dime that MKI wont get an AESA in the current upgrade or an engine change to higher power one that is the last thing MKI needs for the next 15 years when there are so many other important things that it can get for it to get better capabilities , that sort of upgrade would need a lot of testing and debugging as entire weapons system will have to get realligned with new radar and tested too same with engine , easily a $40 million upgrade per aircraft

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2018 01:25

Austin wrote:The IAF never sought AESA on either Mig-29UPG or M2K upgrade if they wanted one which are highly capable platform they would have got from Israel or French route ,

Thats because the original suppliers, Dassault and MiG both made it clear they would not support the rest of the deep overhaul if the IAF chose to ignore their own upgrade packages. And neither had AESA on offer at the time.

Israel even offered a cost-effective EL/M-2032 + Derby package for the Mirage 2000. IAF rejected it, considering they wanted the entire aircraft overhauled and long term support for all the items within, many of which are proprietary to the system integrator and its partners. EL/M-2052 has only been made available recently, and that too with caveats.

Second, Thales AESA upgrade was not on offer because it competed with Rafale offer for India & Russia is yet to have a single AESA in service for its fighters.

You are confusing IAF's lack of choice as = to its desire.

So if IAF wants AESA for MKI they can always get it from the same route

Right, because integrating radars and their corresponding EW suites are just so easy, right? And AESAs are available in plenty for its Su-30 fleet. The Russians would gladly allow us to put an Israeli avionics suite and still support its engines, its umpteen LRUs and meet our serviceability needs even if we were to ignore half of their upgrade proposal.

Here, we can't even drop an Indian engine into Brahmos, because it would "not be true partnership", and there is talk of just randomly integrating 3'rd party AESA.

Russia effectively forced us to buy SAP-518 pods, which are too heavy, by not working with us to integrate EL-8222 capability into the fleet. And you think they will happily share the software and firmware to drop fit an Israeli radar into the Russian WCS on the Su-30 MKI?

but I havent come across any official interview from IAF or Russian side that says they would want an AESA .

The IAFs insistence on AESA for its MMRCA speaks volumes. Its rapid acceptance of the Mk1A when it got an AESA speaks volumes. The IAFs insistence that Rafale with Meteor can take on J-20 speaks volumes. The IAF taking Jaguar DARIN-3 upgrades instead of insisting on further replacements, speaks volumes.

But lets deny all of this, and pretend IAF does not want an AESA.

Russian side will pretend whatever it offers is perfect, so when has that mattered?
NIIP has no AESA on offer today. Phazatron has no AESA on offer today (PR aside, not one is in service on any fighter).

The same magazines which pretend Su30 proposal from Russia is so loved by IAF, also claim MiG-29K is a very successful program.

IAF is not stupid. If Russia had a high power AESA that they could put on the Su-30 - they would have pushed for it as a priority once they saw more Rafales were not coming.

If AESA was such a magical wonder M2K would have been the first to get in the upgrade which is also the most expensive one for a fleet of 40 and M2K are still used for Strategic purpose before Rafale takes over as and when they come.

There was no AESA on offer for the Mirage 2000 upgrade. It was reserved for the Rafale. Now we have purchased the Rafale and will very likely get more, its in Thales and Dassaults interest to provide the technology for some of our existing fleet, provided it does not detract from Rafale sales.

Note Thales is not yet offering the RBE-2 derived radar for the Su-30, why do you think that is? Because the RBE-2 was developed primarily for the Rafale program and clearly, Dassault has some say in where it can be used.

A LCA Mk1 light fighter with AESA is not a threat to the Rafale. Heavy/Medium fighters upgraded with it, can be used to delay Rafale sales and won't be easily cleared.

The BARS are very capable and easily have a decade of life left even in current Mk4 which itself were constantly upgraded ,

They are not permanent and need upgrades.

What they are proposing and highly likely we would see is BARS getting upgraded to Irbis standard with the entire back end geting replaced except for the main antenna so that in future an AESA can be added if required , This would essentially give BARS double the average power output and peak power of 20Kw like Irbis

Austin, I dont think you understand what Irbis is. If Bars was to be upgraded to Irbis, they'd first replace the front-end not the back-end alone because Irbis is basically a lighter antenna derived from the Osa program, but with better scan angles.

You can't just make the Bars draw on 20KW of power either. If you look into the topic, you'll see the average aircraft has only so much power surplus, it can utilize for its avionics. The Irbis leverages all new power supply and transfer units, drawing on more powerful engines than the Su-30's un-upgraded AL-31 class engines.

To the Bars oscillators and receivers, the NIIP guys added extra modules, new antenna, new DSP, and heavy TWTs - to put out a lot of power and claim extreme brochure ranges such as 350-400 km.

Guess what, those ranges come in very narrow scan angles limiting the amount of time, the mode can be used.
In short, the Irbis is no magic bullet. It does however permit large look angles.

The issues regarding PESA designs remain. Power conversion remains iffy with losses in the TX part. The reliability remains a challenge, because of the number of moving parts - large look angles at least compensate for this. The LPI part as advertised for the F-22/F-35 to avoid triggering earlier RWRs is not easily implementable, that growth part is blocked off.

Basically, you have an expensive heavy radar with next to nil long term growth. You have to put an AESA in, next.

Considering IAF is spending just 100 cr on each upgrade of ~ USD 16 million there is little hope in hell we will get AESA and all the bells and whistles if they are looking at fleet wide upgrade of 280 Aircraft , that also comes to around $4.5 - 5 billion just for the upgrade.

Desi displays, RWR, SPJ. Considering an AESA can cost anywhere between 3-5 Million $, that still leaves around $10 Million per aircraft. Again, most of the other items can be easily fit in for the price.

The problem remains the Russians have no AESA for an upgrade.

They only have PESA options.

I would rather see they get something more important like a desi MAWS , DRFM based interal Jammers and heavy pod mounted growler type external one , ESM with LPI capability , Towed Decoys , DIRCM , Upgrade IRST , DARE MMI and Sensor fusion and integration of all the weapons that IAF has and will have in the future including French ones we could have for Rafale like Meteor ....an AESA along with Engine upgrade would be the last good thing to have both are damn expensive component of upgrade ....Considering the fleet wide availability of Data links and AWACS , MKI would still get a big tactical picture from multiple asset.

None of the other items you mentioned are affected by an AESA or are available OTS and some are not available at all.. eg DIRCM, who has that? Only the Russians for FGFA and US for JSF and both are not available.

The rest is all being added anyhow and is not tied to the upgrade.

A long range missile is definitely on the cards as well.

I would bet every dime that MKI wont get an AESA in the current upgrade or an engine change to higher power one that is the last thing MKI needs for the next 15 years when there are so many other important things that it can get for it to get better capabilities , that sort of upgrade would need a lot of testing and debugging as entire weapons system will have to get realligned with new radar and tested too same with engine , easily a $40 million upgrade per aircraft

[/quote]

MKI won't get an AESA because Russians don't have it and the Indian establishment has been too stupid to have not heavily invested in creating the capability locally.

That's the bottomline.

It has nothing to do with IAF does not want an AESA that's something you have just made an idea out of.

In contrast, IAF is busy ensuring every new fighter acquisition it has, comes with AESA. And thank goodness for that.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 20 May 2018 01:58

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:BTW has N036 has even been offered for the upgrade?
NIIP keeps pushing AESA as a 2nd step., while first is a Bars upgrade. IAF wants AESA instead. The mismatch between customer expectations and what Russia is offering, clearly indicates (to my mind at least), that despite the obvious geopolitical advantages of buying Russian (no BS on HR/NGO/Ford this that).. the IAF is no longer a captive market for the Russians. If anyone gives a better deal (e.g. Israel), IAF will seriously evaluate it. It would be even better to open the funding spigot for Uttam and see what an all-up design can seriously achieve. If we get a range increase over Bars (say 30%), plus AESA advantages (ECCM, reliability), then its anyday preferable. I can't believe how stupidly, penny pinching we are, without even having a properly funded AESA FCR program or an inhouse large scale fab, or even a fighter test-bed.

I have a feeling that the bars upgrade had already been carried out, note the increased detection range for fighter sized targets. Any further upgrades will probly offer only marginal increases and aesa might be the only course left

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2018 02:04

And for all the talk of Su-35 being some super program with Irbis etc.

The Brazilians received classified presentations on Su-35, for the program they also had Rafale, F/A-18 E/F, and Gripen competing.

The Su-30 performance was classified as average, with radar performance being OK and EW capability also classified as ok-ok but nothing great.

The Rafale was the "dream acquisition" but dropped because of costs, and Gripen won out because of cost and industrial participation.

In short, Rafale offers Su-35 level and even superior performance with greater sophistication (e.g. EW suite & lower RCS) in a much more compact package.

US has some dozen odd programs out there with AESA. France has a fighter AESA radar. The Swedes have one in trials and the British are also putting one in service, more or less given ME export sales. The Indians, latecomers to the entire FCR party, have now got an AESA in trials.

And the Russians are yet to demonstrate even the existing NIIP AESA to the IAF.

Does anyone think it is a co-incidence that the IAF said enough is enough to the FGFA when they were finally permitted a visit to the program, and the darn aircraft had an engine fire, and the IAF was not even allowed to see what went wrong?

Does anyone treat a customer who invests $400 Mn into a program, with such cavalier disregard and contempt.

It shows Russia either thought we were idiots who didn't have options, OR didnt want us to see how far the program was from completion and we would walk away if we realized the truth.

Looks like they didn't figure out we did have options.

I suspect if they play the same game with S-400, DRDO/IAI will come up with a new SAM and that's goodbye to the S-400 as well.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2018 02:15

I hope you are right. That would be a sweet thing, if the last 40 unit order for the Sukhois was actually to a mid-way upgraded specification. What we do know is the final version of Bars, which finally met IAF specifications, was actually realized only a few years back and it was then subsequently released for production. However, the Su-30 upgraded Bars was to be far more capable.

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:
NIIP keeps pushing AESA as a 2nd step., while first is a Bars upgrade. IAF wants AESA instead. The mismatch between customer expectations and what Russia is offering, clearly indicates (to my mind at least), that despite the obvious geopolitical advantages of buying Russian (no BS on HR/NGO/Ford this that).. the IAF is no longer a captive market for the Russians. If anyone gives a better deal (e.g. Israel), IAF will seriously evaluate it. It would be even better to open the funding spigot for Uttam and see what an all-up design can seriously achieve. If we get a range increase over Bars (say 30%), plus AESA advantages (ECCM, reliability), then its anyday preferable. I can't believe how stupidly, penny pinching we are, without even having a properly funded AESA FCR program or an inhouse large scale fab, or even a fighter test-bed.
I have a feeling that the bars upgrade had already been carried out, not the increases detection ranges for fighter sized targets. Any further upgrades will probly offer only marginal increases and aesa might be the only course left

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2018 02:16

Two Aero India's back, this was the status.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-un-v-RvjP1E/U ... nics-4.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JSWjKMBDooQ/U ... nics-5.jpg

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2018 02:26

In short, we have the final variant of Bars from circa 2012. The ones in IAF service are effectively from that standard.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 20 May 2018 03:14

Just reposting what I recently found in case you didn't get a chance to read it...

Image and range references removed...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2018 03:54

Cain, as long as un-upgraded Su-30s are in service and are the majority, I don't think we should be discussing Bars ranges.

However, I will say this, TR1's enthusiasm, over "new numbers" is misplaced. Those are the same figures in the same brochure, which have remained unchanged for over a decade. I saw those details in 2007 or even earlier (the ROE brochure has been available from 2002 onwards as I recall).

I will also say this - the Bars is a formidable radar & the majority of speculation regarding it being less powerful is also fallacy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 May 2018 11:41

Karan , You are just repeating same thing based on what you think but I have no intention on debating with you its an endless one , I would just put out my analysis on based on inverviews from HAL , NIIP and IAF about the upgrade.

There is not a single statement from IAF that says IAF wants AESA or PESA or something else , We dont know what is the frozen specs of Super MKI upgrade and what will be its final cost.

An AESA upgrade for a MKI size aircraft is a project in itself not only its an expensive upgrade but also a time consuming one because they will have to recaliberate and re-certify the entire weapons suite of MKI with the new radar , no body know how compatiable these would be.

IF you have a new program like MMRCA or Rafale deal which will come into IAF after 2020 then it makes sense to have a AESA because most of the aircraft will come into service after 2025 except for Rafale. Jags upgrade with new Radar is more of a necessiaty because 2032 did not perform well either on SAHR or Jags IM , I got this from someone in know the only reason it was there because it was better than the original radar and other option from UK and France were very expensive as good as cost of new aircraft.

BARS are exteremly capable radar and can out match in Range any radar that IAF has today or will have in future the current potential to improve BARS exists and it will remain very competent for next 10 years , but as any upgrade would start 2-3 years for now and its potential to upgrade the entire fleet by HAL will be 6-8 years , They are pursuing the IRBIS option ( they might replace the antenna too but thats not yet decided ) IRBIS will remain competent for next 25-30 from 2020 which will also be the time MKI service life would end after upgrade.

IF IAF wants a 15-16 million USD upgrade then they will have to look at cost effective option for fleet wide upgrade , if they want an expensive upgrade involve AESA for the next 40 new airframe they may buy then it makes sense to put in AESA but that would be a 30-40 million dollar upgrade ..would that be worth the money is something IAF has to decide

So to summarise from offical statements in interview from HAL , NIIP , IAF
Super 30 MKI upgrade

1 ) Would include IRBIS class radars either upgrading the BARS to IRBIS standard or replace BARS with IRBIS antenna , The back end would be AESA radar if in future IAF decides to have AESA then it just needs to replace the Antenna no need to replace back end

2 ) Would involed MAWS, EW and many new Weapons Suite including current weapons for Tejas , ASTRA , Meteor , Israel weapons would be certified for Super MKI , RVV-BD, RVV-SD etc would be integrated , This would give IAF fleet wide flexibility to add any weapons available in any weapons theatre

3 ) Would involve new cockpit , new MMI and Sensor Fusion based on DARE and Su-35 standard sensor fusion

4 ) BRahmos Mini and Brahmos with extended Range 450 km is part of Super MKI suite

5 ) No engine Upgrade is talked about but AL-31FP has the potential to get upgraded to AL-31FM2 or FM2 standard without increasing diameter of Fan , will need new hot parts for higher TET and higher thrust either 1 ton or 2 T more per engine.

That is what I know , This is not based on IAF Final Specs which might change depending on money IAF wants to spend

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 May 2018 11:46

IAF to send Sukhoi to Australia for multilateral drill

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/i ... 72059.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2018 12:43

Austin wrote:Karan , You are just repeating same thing based on what you think but I have no intention on debating with you its an endless one , I would just put out my analysis on based on inverviews from HAL , NIIP and IAF about the upgrade.

There is not a single statement from IAF that says IAF wants AESA or PESA or something else , We dont know what is the frozen specs of Super MKI upgrade and what will be its final cost.

Au contraire, we have the IAF's overarching desire to put AESA on as many fighters as possible. The problem is Russia doesn't have one. Moment it had one and Russian sites started their PR game, you'd be quoting their tom-tomming how only AESA would be good for the IAF.

An AESA upgrade for a MKI size aircraft is a project in itself not only its an expensive upgrade but also a time consuming one because they will have to recaliberate and re-certify the entire weapons suite of MKI with the new radar , no body know how compatiable these would be.

Five minutes back you said:

So if IAF wants AESA for MKI they can always get it from the same route

Now you change tack to what I was pointing out (but not getting the point) .. the point was that the IAF can have this done for a DARIN-3 Jaguar and LCA Tejas MK1A provided the radar OEM works with the avionics suite supplier.

IF you have a new program like MMRCA or Rafale deal which will come into IAF after 2020 then it makes sense to have a AESA because most of the aircraft will come into service after 2025 except for Rafale. Jags upgrade with new Radar is more of a necessiaty because 2032 did not perform well either on SAHR or Jags IM , I got this from someone in know the only reason it was there because it was better than the original radar and other option from UK and France were very expensive as good as cost of new aircraft.

Why would the IAF ask for a 2052 if 2032 does not perform well? The Jaguar DARIN-3 is getting an AESA today. The LCA is getting an AESA today. The IMs continue to get 2032s till AESA comes along.

BARS are exteremly capable radar and can out match in Range any radar that IAF has today or will have in future

Not necessarily, Bars sized AESAs will have the potential to outmatch it provided they get the right engine power.

the current potential to improve BARS exists and it will remain very competent for next 10 years , but as any upgrade would start 2-3 years for now and its potential to upgrade the entire fleet by HAL will be 6-8 years , They are pursuing the IRBIS option ( they might replace the antenna too but thats not yet decided ) IRBIS will remain competent for next 25-30 from 2020 which will also be the time MKI service life would end after upgrade.

Irbis is the swan song of PESA to be true and also, from our perspective, the question to ask is if Irbis was all-singing and dancing, why develop an AESA for the FGFA? Do we also want to field a system, the PRC now has access to?

IF IAF wants a 15-16 million USD upgrade then they will have to look at cost effective option for fleet wide upgrade , if they want an expensive upgrade involve AESA for the next 40 new airframe they may buy then it makes sense to put in AESA but that would be a 30-40 million dollar upgrade ..would that be worth the money is something IAF has to decide

An AESA costs anywhere between $6-7 Million, its hardly as expensive as you are making it out to be.

So to summarise from offical statements in interview from HAL , NIIP , IAF
Super 30 MKI upgrade

1 ) Would include IRBIS class radars either upgrading the BARS to IRBIS standard or replace BARS with IRBIS antenna , The back end would be AESA radar if in future IAF decides to have AESA then it just needs to replace the Antenna no need to replace back end

2 ) Would involed MAWS, EW and many new Weapons Suite including current weapons for Tejas , ASTRA , Meteor , Israel weapons would be certified for Super MKI , RVV-BD, RVV-SD etc would be integrated , This would give IAF fleet wide flexibility to add any weapons available in any weapons theatre

3 ) Would involve new cockpit , new MMI and Sensor Fusion based on DARE and Su-35 standard sensor fusion

4 ) BRahmos Mini and Brahmos with extended Range 450 km is part of Super MKI suite

We don't know about sensor fusion. We hope it does have it.

5 ) No engine Upgrade is talked about but AL-31FP has the potential to get upgraded to AL-31FM2 or FM2 standard without increasing diameter of Fan , will need new hot parts for higher TET and higher thrust either 1 ton or 2 T more per engine.

Initial reports spoke of FADEC upgrades.

That is what I know , This is not based on IAF Final Specs which might change depending on money IAF wants to spend

Its reasonable conjecture.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 May 2018 20:29

Even a $15M cost of a unit upgrade of an MKI with an improved radar is quite acceptable considering the gross $50M cost per M2K upgrade.if even 50% of the MKI fleet is upgraded to SS BMos std., it will be well worth it as these birds would be superior to anything else in the IAF's stable including non BMos Rafales.

PS: The Defence Industry Daily website in a report of HAL's offer of building 40 more advanced MKIs , pegs the cost of an MKI at $62.5M when compared with $165M for a Rafale.This is almost 1/3rd the cost of a Rafale and on the basis of this massive difference in cost, future Rafale purchases would be incomprehensible and inexcusable.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 May 2018 00:26

DAC has approved design and development of Made In India dual band long range IRST for Su30MKI.

Source RM twitter account.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2018 02:39

JayS wrote:DAC has approved design and development of Made In India dual band long range IRST for Su30MKI.

Source RM twitter account.

Great stuff, IRDE + SAMTEL/THALES is my guess

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 May 2018 07:25

i had heard a figure of 9m usd being thrown around for RDY2 pulse doppler radar (?)

wig · Post by **wig** » 29 May 2018 08:09

the sukhoi will be equipped with dual band IRST

DAC also accorded approval for undertaking design and development of the long-range dual band Infrared Imaging Search and Track System (IRST) for SU-30 MKI aircraft and subsequently, for procurement of at least 100 IRSTs.
The system will be able to operate in day and night conditions and substantially enhance the capabilities of the aircraft

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 96564.html

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 May 2018 19:53

Karan M wrote:And for all the talk of Su-35 being some super program with Irbis etc.

The Brazilians received classified presentations on Su-35, for the program they also had Rafale, F/A-18 E/F, and Gripen competing.

The Su-30 performance was classified as average, with radar performance being OK and EW capability also classified as ok-ok but nothing great.

The Rafale was the "dream acquisition" but dropped because of costs, and Gripen won out because of cost and industrial participation.

In short, Rafale offers Su-35 level and even superior performance with greater sophistication (e.g. EW suite & lower RCS) in a much more compact package.

US has some dozen odd programs out there with AESA. France has a fighter AESA radar. The Swedes have one in trials and the British are also putting one in service, more or less given ME export sales. The Indians, latecomers to the entire FCR party, have now got an AESA in trials.

And the Russians are yet to demonstrate even the existing NIIP AESA to the IAF.

Does anyone think it is a co-incidence that the IAF said enough is enough to the FGFA when they were finally permitted a visit to the program, and the darn aircraft had an engine fire, and the IAF was not even allowed to see what went wrong?

Does anyone treat a customer who invests $400 Mn into a program, with such cavalier disregard and contempt.

It shows Russia either thought we were idiots who didn't have options, OR didnt want us to see how far the program was from completion and we would walk away if we realized the truth.

Looks like they didn't figure out we did have options.

I suspect if they play the same game with S-400, DRDO/IAI will come up with a new SAM and that's goodbye to the S-400 as well.

Karan, as always appreciate your inputs but you I think you should have said - " For Brazillian conditions ... ".

The Su 35 does score a few points over the Rafale in certain areas. Else in the medium range, Rafale would be a better multi role platform.

I absolutely agree with the assessment on how the Russians have been treating Indian requirements and Indian money.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jun 2018 10:12

I came across a Dec.'17 piece in a UK paper on the IAF's quest for the Meteor which it said that it hoped would be a "game changer" against both Pak and China.The report said that apart from the Rafale the IAF also planned to integrate it into its MKIs which were also being planned for an upgrade.

If Meteor, Astra, etc. become universal missiles aboard multiple platforms, it may obviate the need to buy even more ultra-expensive Rafales for a cash- strapped IAF.
The losses of our PSBs has been determined ( media report today) to have been $13B last year, wiping out the entire infusion of cash by the govt. to them to kick start the economy.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 02 Jun 2018 19:42

Philip wrote:it may obviate the need to buy even more ultra-expensive Rafales for a cash- strapped IAF.

But would it obviate the need to buy more MiGs and Su-30 ?

If so, let the govt buy some metoers

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jun 2018 20:57

Good Documentary on Su-30SM and Su-30MKI program history and background

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jun 2018 18:21

Nein mein kamerad! Vot ve simply av to do is to upgrade our MKIs, at least half of them to SS BMos std. vere zey vill alzo be able to carry der Meteor, ASTRA- ER und zer latest Russian LR BVR AAMs.Zis vill be qwite adequate to zend ze fireworks up any Paki back door orifiz if you get my meaning ja?!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jun 2018 04:00

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rd-449060/

India’s ministry of defence, air force and Russian firms are in active discussions for the mid-life upgrade of 44 Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs.
The upgrade programme involves the integration of five new missiles and the fitting of Russian, Western and indigenously developed systems. The major upgrades are related to the radar, weapon control system, mission computer, and communications suite.

State owned airframer Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is aggressively pursuing the lead role for the upgrade programme as it continues to produce the aircraft under license.

Earlier this week, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), led by India’s defence minister, also approved the indigenous design and development of a long range dual band infrared imaging search and track system (IRST) for the Su-30 MKI. At least 100 units are to be procured.
....................................................................
The airframer now has 30 Su-30 MKIs left to produce, having delivered 192 aircraft as of April as per MoD figures. The remaining aircraft will be delivered by 2020-21.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 04 Jun 2018 08:21

Philip wrote:Even a $15M cost of a unit upgrade of an MKI with an improved radar is quite acceptable considering the gross $50M cost per M2K upgrade.if even 50% of the MKI fleet is upgraded to SS BMos std., it will be well worth it as these birds would be superior to anything else in the IAF's stable including non BMos Rafales.

PS: The Defence Industry Daily website in a report of HAL's offer of building 40 more advanced MKIs , pegs the cost of an MKI at $62.5M when compared with $165M for a Rafale.This is almost 1/3rd the cost of a Rafale and on the basis of this massive difference in cost, future Rafale purchases would be incomprehensible and inexcusable.

Bhai sahib hum aapko official number dedete hain, kahe ko defence Industry daily ke number laga rahe ho. ForvRusia the quoted price is off en not what you end up paying . The first lot of 140 aircrafts were contracted in 2006 for Rs 22,122 corer and by 2013 the cost has escalated to Rs 39,600 corer which translates into $62 M/aircraft in 2006 contract at Rs50 to a dollars. A cool 80% over the contracted price by 2013. God knows how much the final cost would be will know when CAG audits the accounts sometimes in future

Second contract was signed in 2007 for 40 aircraftsfor Rs 9475 corers ($47 M/aircraft) but final price is not known yet.

Third contract for 42 aircrafts was signed on 2012 for Rs 16,147 corer or $71 M/aircraft. What it’ll cost us in the end would be known when CAG comes out with numbers.

Rafael numbers are also available and the cost in 2017 is $110M/aircraft, i bet my penny that a new contract for MKI would not cost any less than that. We are comparing a fully integrated contemporary aircraft with what IAF designed in 2002.

Read 2014 CAG report and see how we have been treated-

ROE simply refused to give technical documents to HAL for years which forced HAL to buy more fully built kits from ROE to meet delivery dates.

HAL pays liquidated damages for delays while ROE causes those delays intentionally or by neglect

Fuel leak issues- ROE’s solution don’t maneuver it too hard, be gentle on thrust vectors, land softly, keep it indoor and give it good night kisses. And yes it can’t be completely eliminated even if you do all of the above, so look for it and if it leaks change parts/repair immediately.

CAG report on Su-30MKI 2014

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 04 Jun 2018 09:07

As per this report, integration of meteor missiles on SU-30 and LCA has his some French road blocks

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-04

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jun 2018 09:29

Bishwa wrote:As per this report, integration of meteor missiles on SU-30 and LCA has his some French road blocks

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-04

These are bound to happen and is normal thing , No OEM will allow integration of system like BVR missile on other system not using its own radar and interface equipment , They will have to release sensitive information to interface the missile with the aircraft radar and datalink etc which they wont do. IAF tried to interface R-27 on M2K and failed for the same reason.

Only WVR weapns and certain type of LGB and Standoff weapons can be integrated without much hassel or reveling sensitive details by weapons manuf.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jun 2018 09:31

Cost of MKI built by HAL is on record ,Parrikar put the figure in parliament at ~ $60 million in 2014 and Ajai Shukla quoting HAL latest figure is ~ $62 million

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Jun 2018 10:01

MBDA refuses to integrate the Meteor with Su 30