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Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Cain Marko
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jun 2017 20:22

Could very well be the Derby ER bad on the news coming out of Paris where IAI official suggests the same. Note that the ER was put forth as poor man's meteor, and that hal is somehow able to integrate non Russian weapons with bars.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 30 Jun 2017 22:47

The interest in the new AAM should be seen in this light:
x-posted from LCA thread
tsarkar wrote:Bars is manufactured at HAL Hyderabad and thankfully the Russians shared the software (before they discovered they've run out of things to sell and started acting pricey on other stuff). The software shared allows India to mate Bars with Astra and Derby to replace dud R-77.


Since we haven't heard about Derby integration on anything except the LCA, it basically means that our frontline air-superiority fighter is BVR-nude at the moment except for the old SARH R-27. Hope the new ones we get actually work.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 30 Jun 2017 23:06

^^ We always had Super 530D BVR since the 80s followed by Derby on Sea Harrier upgrade followed by MICA RF/IIR on Mirage 2000 upgrade and I-Derby on Su-30MKI/Tejas. MICA, Derby, I-Derby and I-Derby-ER compare very favourably with Pakistani AMRAAMs. Add Astra to the mix.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 30 Jun 2017 23:18

tsarkar wrote:^^ We always had Super 530D BVR since the 80s followed by Derby on Sea Harrier upgrade followed by MICA RF/IIR on Mirage 2000 upgrade and I-Derby on Su-30MKI/Tejas. MICA, Derby, I-Derby and I-Derby-ER compare very favourably with Pakistani AMRAAMs. Add Astra to the mix.

I'm speaking only of the Su-30 and at the current time. Astra is still in development. Super-530D is also SARH (like the R-27) and only limited to the Mirage-2000. Has Derby been integrated on the Su-30? If so, that is a relief. But I haven't heard about it. The R-77 was the only modern active-radar homing AAM operational in the IAF. And it turned out to be a dud. The MICA is being acquired only now with the M2k upgrade and will only be operational on the M2k.

The MKI is still saddled with the R-27 only as far as I can tell. Same with the upgraded Mig-29s too. Unless we bought fresh stocks of R-77s with the upgrade, which are not duds.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 30 Jun 2017 23:37

^^ The entire discussion started with Rafael Paris Air Show press release of I-Derby integration on Tejas and Su-30MKI. It has a software defined seeker that enables programming against enemy ECM patterns.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 01 Jul 2017 00:00

Would it be too much to hope for since we are able to mate weapons of our choosing to the MKI then maybe we are edging towards autonomy and complete control of our flanker?

Can I dare to hope that the infrastructure that HAL created to build "70%" of the MKI can be used to build our own all-Indian Flanker variants (minus the engine)?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 01 Jul 2017 02:18

tsarkar wrote:^^ The entire discussion started with Rafael Paris Air Show press release of I-Derby integration on Tejas and Su-30MKI. It has a software defined seeker that enables programming against enemy ECM patterns.

tsarkar sir, the idrw report says that the IAF is evaluating proposals to integrate the Derby with the MKI, unless you're speaking of a different report. R-77 is the only missile for both the MKI and the upgraded Mig-29s currently. If most of our stock are duds and a war were to happen today our MKIs and -29s would be going up against AMRAAM armed F-16s carrying either obsolete R-27s or R-77s of highly questionable reliability.

Quite a change from Kargil era when the PAF was scared of the BVR capability of the IAF.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jul 2017 04:36

^entire r77 inventory can't be dismissed. What factor makes it such a dud? Seeker , propellant design? Can't these factors be addressed? After all, Iirc the seeker used on the Astra is the same agat one as on the dud.

And if this is such a case what does the IAF and navy plan to do with its fulcrum. AFAIK, the navy seems fine with the same mijjile?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby negi » 01 Jul 2017 11:14

software defined seeker :rotfl: no offense meant but I just couldn't resist how vapor ware terminology from ITVTY is infiltrating mil-tech until now the flow has been usually the other-way round.


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Hari Seldon » 12 Jul 2017 08:54

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jul 2017 07:21

Strategic Reconnaissance with the Su-30MKI
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/military-av ... e-su-30mki

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Gaur » 19 Jul 2017 09:56


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 19 Jul 2017 10:44

In light of this standoff would it be prudent to buy 2 more squadrons of MKIs? I know we don't want to keep all our baskets in Russian hardware, but it's the best option we have to induct quickly.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 19 Jul 2017 10:53

^^^
Infrastructure setup is already there for Su-30MKI and plus investments have been made to increase its serviceability rates. New weapons are being integrated and MLU aka "Super MKI" are going to take place soon. Production of current orders at HAL is ending in 2019. Makes the most sense to continue the current production run of 12/year for a few more years until other fighter platforms, like the LCA, production occur locally at full capacities. All of these talk of MII are years away from delivering new airframes even if they happen to sign the contract tomorrow. On top of that, it takes a lot of time to achieve FOC on a new type.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 19 Jul 2017 11:14

I'd prefer ordering directly from Russia, if we wait for HAL, we'd receive the planes in 2022.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 19 Jul 2017 12:56

^^^
The whole point is to have at least one or two fighter production running in India. HAL has after many years achieved Stage 4 with the ability to manufacture MKI from raw materials. If orders are placed now, HAL should be able to continue deliveries uninterrupted post 2019 at 12/year. No benefit directly getting it from Russia.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 20 Jul 2017 00:14

srai wrote:^^^
The whole point is to have at least one or two fighter production running in India. HAL has after many years achieved Stage 4 with the ability to manufacture MKI from raw materials. If orders are placed now, HAL should be able to continue deliveries uninterrupted post 2019 at 12/year. No benefit directly getting it from Russia.


I think it will be like the Jaguar line, it will get orders continuously till the modernization work starts. I wonder if we could just produce new build SuperMKI directly as well. We can absorb another 3-4 sqaudrons easily.

PAKFA is probably 5-6 years away from production. This will negate the current circus in town.. The orders should come from our line.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 20 Jul 2017 00:20

Karthik S wrote:I'd prefer ordering directly from Russia, if we wait for HAL, we'd receive the planes in 2022.


We are already absorbing about 20 planes this year and about 36 planes from 2019 year onwards. Thats a squadron and half a year or three partial squadrons.

12 LCA
12 MKI
12 Rafale.

That's probably our max capacity of ingesting new platforms. We are/will probably be retiring at the same rate soon.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 20 Jul 2017 18:19



It is better to keep the upgrade cost effective as possible no point in upgrading the engine and stuff when AL-31FP has enough power and increasing the cost , my wish list would be

1 ) Upgrade BARS to Irbis Standard ( which has been proposed earlier no need for expensive AESA )
2 ) SD Internal Broad Band Jammer , 2 Wing Tip Pod one for Jammer one for Decoy ( EF has that combination )
3 ) Add in MAWS and ESM with LPI Capability ( both capability is needed fleet wide due to SHORAD threat )
4 ) Replace maximum Russian Hardware possible with DARE Systems be it RC or MC or other things in there
5 ) Add Data Link to talk to AWACS , Rafale , Tejas vice vesa etc and Software update to Sensor Fuse all the above systems ( Radar/MAWS/ESM/Weapons ) make it pilot friendly with 2 Pilots they can any way share the load.
6 ) Integrate all possible weapons system in IAF fleet with MKI ,DRDOs , French American Russian Israel etc including BVR and Stand off weapons like Brahmos , even if it carries 1 Brahmos it is fine with no MTCR restriction it can fly to 450 km its max range.

Last but not the least get a Rafale Type Deal for Guranted Uptimes and Local Facility for Spares , Atleast 70 % uptimes they have already achieved 65 % till date infact a bit higher.

If they do all the above they can keep MKI competitive for next 20-25 years without adding high premium for upgrade.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 21 Jul 2017 09:40


Indranil
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Indranil » 22 Jul 2017 01:03

Jaw dropping!!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby sum » 22 Jul 2017 07:10

Holy #@!#

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 22 Jul 2017 07:35

sum wrote:Holy #@!#


Because of the maneuver or because our Russian "friends" exported the SU-35 to Cheen?

Hopefully it can only launch the R-77 dudski.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 Jul 2017 09:53

Given AESA is now far along for PAKFA, we should evaluate the progress and take that for Bars rather than Irbis.
Irbis is a dual channel Tx complicated PESA with moving parts. Its reliability will be middling at best. Better to have an AESA, albeit one properly debugged, we can wait till then. With Bars still powerful, and AWACS, we do have time.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 22 Jul 2017 12:59

sum wrote:Holy #@!#

Yes quite agree with that sentiment ....

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Zynda » 22 Jul 2017 13:38

Incredible...Su-35 can literally dance up in the air!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 22 Jul 2017 14:08

Duet Display by Su-30SM/MKI at MAKS


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby DrRatnadip » 05 Aug 2017 16:56

125kN Kaveri engine for Sukhoi 30MKI is sheer waste of Time and Money: Report

http://idrw.org/125kn-kaveri-engine-for ... ey-report/ .

Speaking on the news report that India is planning to replace AL-31-FP engine on its Sukhoi -30MKI fleet with a 125kn thrust class engine derivative from the basic Kaveri engine, Air Commodore KI Ravi, AVSM VSM (Retd) speaking to idrw.org said that in his opinion, it is a sheer waste of time, and tax payer’s money in considering investment into the 125kn engine Kaveri for the Sukhoi-30MKI. Air Commodore KI Ravi says that ” Russian philosophy of maintenance is so different from the western concept. Sukhoi design bureau as a part of their conceptual design to critical design review(cdr) and thereafter the prototype manufacture, followed by hours of flight testing AL-31-FPs, collected mapping of errors, corrective actions and then activating the feedback loop to make it a proven engine today “.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 05 Aug 2017 17:25

I think that is totally fake news.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 05 Aug 2017 17:40

shiv wrote:I think that is totally fake news.


Could be. Whatever is said in the article is not completely wrong though. (The above quoted part is so generic. Every one does that and not only for engines but for every product in Aerospace. Its standard product life cycle, Conceptual Review to Critical Design Review. Nothing special about Russians doing it) But the part which says it will need extensive OEM suuport to change engines is quite right. I also think it would be a rather suboptimal use of funds to try and make 125kN engine fit in Su30MKI. Of coarse Kaveri 125kN should be made for AMCA. But for Su-30 we should embark on clean sheet 150+ kN class engine. The kind of efforts it will need to re-engine su30, why not go for uprating..?

But I do like the ambitious ideas that are coimg out. Folks are thinking which is good. Even if they go ahead and do this its fine. The experience will be worthwhile. Wont be completely "sheer waste of time and money". But little more ambition and uprating would be really good.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 06 Aug 2017 09:30

JayS wrote:
shiv wrote:I think that is totally fake news.


Could be. Whatever is said in the article is not completely wrong though.

There is no working Kaveri engine of even 90kN What is this talk of 125 kN kaveri? And who is going to qualify the TV nozzles?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby geeth » 06 Aug 2017 10:28

Like all hydrogenated vegetable oil is called "dalda", may be all Indian jet engines are called "Kaveri"....what else?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 06 Aug 2017 11:05

:rotfl:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 06 Aug 2017 20:57

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
Could be. Whatever is said in the article is not completely wrong though.

There is no working Kaveri engine of even 90kN What is this talk of 125 kN kaveri? And who is going to qualify the TV nozzles?


Not just that dimensional too AL-31 and Kaveri are different in length and dia , that would change the CG if they managed to uprate the thrust keeping all things equal for kaveri.

Who ever wrote that article does not have basic knowledge on aircraft engine or thousand hours plus flight qualifying program needed to get an engine certified for fighter in all regimes of flight and speed or the hours it runs on ground bench test and on aircraft to get it flight qualified and much less status of Kaveri program , just adding 125 kn thrust was enough as per writer understanding to power the MKI !

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 06 Aug 2017 23:21

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
Could be. Whatever is said in the article is not completely wrong though.

There is no working Kaveri engine of even 90kN What is this talk of 125 kN kaveri? And who is going to qualify the TV nozzles?

Precisely thats what I wanted to point out. It would not be easy even if we have a good engine to replace Al31FP. And IMO if at all we want to take all those efforts we might as well go with uprated engine rather than same thrust class engine. Return on the bucks would be better.

No we don't have any form of Kaveri flight worthy. But for arguments sake.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 07 Aug 2017 00:05

I presume they are making an argument for powering AMCA. They are adding other use cases however far fetched they are to get funding. Which is fine, that's how we will get where we need to.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby DrRatnadip » 07 Aug 2017 00:12

Cybaru wrote:I presume they are making an argument for powering AMCA. They are adding other use cases however far fetched they are to get funding. Which is fine, that's how we will get where we need to.

I thought they will use Sukhoi as testbed for 125 kN kaveri :idea: .. Ultimate goal will be to perfect it for AMCA..

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 07 Aug 2017 06:51

Cybaru wrote:I presume they are making an argument for powering AMCA. They are adding other use cases however far fetched they are to get funding. Which is fine, that's how we will get where we need to.

Some person on Teetar has made a post about an interview with Christopher in Phorrsss magazine which is behind a firewall. Says F 414 is for AMCA

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby NRao » 07 Aug 2017 07:10

shiv wrote:
Cybaru wrote:I presume they are making an argument for powering AMCA. They are adding other use cases however far fetched they are to get funding. Which is fine, that's how we will get where we need to.

Some person on Teetar has made a post about an interview with Christopher in Phorrsss magazine which is behind a firewall. Says F 414 is for AMCA


I have been saying that, F414 INS6 uprated to 110 kN, for AMCA, for eons. Indian IP.

Which mag is that?





Going out on a limb, I suspect the 125 kN "Kaveri" is the French assisted engine uprated with the knowledge gained from the uprating of the INS6.


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