Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Austin
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 07 May 2016 13:12

For most part Sukhoi was kept on Tarmac exposed to harsh sun that causes its own wear and tear , not sure what percentage of Flanker even today has a temporary/modular shelter.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 07 May 2016 14:07

Also Sukhois may have been used more roughly compared to babying of Smaller Miarge 2000 fleet.
Last edited by Gyan on 08 May 2016 00:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby deejay » 07 May 2016 19:18

shiv wrote:
BharadwajV wrote:Government said on Thursday Su-30MKIs have been facing engine troubles and have been forced to land on single engine 34 times since April 1, 2014.

-In the parliament
Source

Just playing number games in my mind. Assuming 150 Sukhois and that 20% of them fly every day - we have about 10000 sorties a year, or 20,000 since April 1 2014. 34/20,000 is a failure rate of ~0.17% That is probably high compared with civilian engines and with Snecma/Mirage


Shiv Ji, it is an unusually high engine failure rate.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 07 May 2016 23:12

I think the failure rate is even higher. 20% daily sortie rate is a little high according to an ex SU 30 MKI (20 Lightnings Sqdn) pilot I know who is now with a pvt airline. He suggests 12-15 % is a better estimate taking availability into account. So failure rate would go up.

Also this does not take into account where engines have flamed out and relighted again so landing was with 2 engines. I wonder how many of those cases have occurred. But why is this happening - bad design or bad production or both ? I know the IAF does very detailed studies on these issues but don't know what has been found.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 07 May 2016 23:27

The issue is supposedly resolved, if we see earlier reports and the precis above. Time will tell though.
Su-30s are to fly around 180 hours a year per pilot.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 410100.htm
IAF sortie rate for a mature platform.
But the MiG-21 pilot flies twice a day, 20 times a month

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 08 May 2016 08:30

Some time during Cope India they carried report that Su-30 pilot flew 250-300 hours every year consistently and it was almost twice the hours that NATO pilot flew , It was mentioned by Pushpinder singh as a rejoinder in Vayu article iirc and even AW&ST carried those flying hour report

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shiv » 08 May 2016 09:17

For a very long time we have known that the Russians prefer technology that is relatively "rough and ready", with easily procurable parts that can be used in multiple military and civil platforms and to be thrown/discarded when worn out.

GSh 23 is use and throw. MiG 21 front wheel is common to Russian tractor front wheel. Fotrot sub airconditioner spares were obtained from convoy of Russian trucks at port in exchange for alcohol (ref "Foxtrots of the Indian Navy" by Cdrs Franklin

We also know that Western philosophy is for stuff to last longer.

India has got accustomed to a mix of these and has had a unique opportunity to compare and contrast the 2 philosophies. To my knowledge our own engineering expertise is heading the western way

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 08 May 2016 10:44

Any news from Red Flag 2016?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby chiru » 08 May 2016 12:11

srai wrote:Any news from Red Flag 2016?


few images from twitter
our boys are having a good time 8)
Image

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Kakarat » 08 May 2016 12:17

^^^
These are from our friend Kedar Karmarkar and higher resolution are available in his FB Page
https://www.facebook.com/kedarkap

And according to him the participating Squadrons are

Jaguar IS from No.14 'Bulls' Squadron
Su-30MKI from No.15 'Flying Lances' Squadron

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 08 May 2016 13:50

Karan M wrote:The issue is supposedly resolved, if we see earlier reports and the precis above. Time will tell though.
Su-30s are to fly around 180 hours a year per pilot.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 410100.htm
IAF sortie rate for a mature platform.
But the MiG-21 pilot flies twice a day, 20 times a month


Thanks for the link Karan.This (15 years ago situation) ties in with what I have been told -''our sortie raties and flight hours per a/c per year have come down' over the years'. Flight times of pilots have not come down so much because our pilot/ a/c ratio has also come down.

But good to know the engine issue has been fixed.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 08 May 2016 13:54

Kakarat wrote:^^^
These are from our friend Kedar Karmarkar and higher resolution are available in his FB Page
https://www.facebook.com/kedarkap

And according to him the participating Squadrons are

Jaguar IS from No.14 'Bulls' Squadron
Su-30MKI from No.15 'Flying Lances' Squadron


Squadron and number check time. 15 is based in Jodhpur. How many SU 30 MKI squadrons do we have now ? My last number was 10.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 08 May 2016 16:15

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:The issue is supposedly resolved, if we see earlier reports and the precis above. Time will tell though.
Su-30s are to fly around 180 hours a year per pilot.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 410100.htm
IAF sortie rate for a mature platform.
But the MiG-21 pilot flies twice a day, 20 times a month


Thanks for the link Karan.This (15 years ago situation) ties in with what I have been told -''our sortie raties and flight hours per a/c per year have come down' over the years'. Flight times of pilots have not come down so much because our pilot/ a/c ratio has also come down.

But good to know the engine issue has been fixed.


Hi Akshay,

Thing is sortie rates and flight hours are linked. If your flight hours per sortie are low, hence you need more sorties. So in the above, 240 sorties, at 30-45 mins each translates to 120-180 hours a year per pilot. This is because the MiG-21 had very low fuel carriage capability so it had low flight hrs/sortie. In contrast, Mirage 2000s and now the Su-30 MKIs can do more.

Also, at times of making sure that specific assets were carefully managed, IAF deputed MiG-21s to MiG-29 squadrons etc to ensure basic flight requirements were met while higher end tactics etc could be done on the airframe. Managed spares burn. But this issue was gradually resolved per reports (though we had to make a lot of stuff inhouse).

The IAF standard expected has not changed for ages (which is good because they were high), CAG noted for MiG-29 induction standard expected was 180 hrs/pilot. Same was repeated in 2014 or thereabouts for Su-30 MKI.

This 180 hrs/pilot used to be the NATO gold standard. After the Cold War, their flight hrs/pilot have been dropping heavily.
In our case, depending on airframe serviceability, we do make up the hours but all depends on # of fully ops pilots and qualified ones.

At Cope India (USAF vs IAF at KKD), some 3 years back,
As for flying hours, one of the Flanker pilots told me openly that he gets about 200 hours a year in the front seat...Their higher ranking dudes fly in the back seat and act as Mission Commanders.


Having said that, there has definitely been a shortfall both in pilot # and airframe #
If the MKI fleet was at 56% serviceability, the IAF would have seen little merit in drastically ramping up the # of available pilots, how to train them or keep them active?
Notional need at wartime (2 pilots/airframe) still has to be met at peacetime (which means training platform availability ie Su-30).

IMO glad to see you concur about the flight hrs/pilot because i had come to the same conclusion as seen above, that the airframe # and pilot availability were tracking each other.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 08 May 2016 16:26

How about those simulators for MKI , they must be flying less on aircraft and compensating it with Simulator Flying or just balancing out the both. Like say 150 hrs of aircraft and 100 hrs of simulator

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 08 May 2016 16:35

Good point. IAF was to get some 2 full simulators and some additional task trainers. I don't know how many were finally inducted and operationalized.
Alpha has delivered a MiG-29 and Mi-17 simulator (full systems)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 08 May 2016 16:43

Hi Karan,

Thanks. Also Very interesting point about MIG 21 in 29 Sqdns. Another question for you. What is. Bisons combat radius ?

I think drop in pilots is more due to the general officer shortage reasons in forces not as part of a planned exercise. But I don't know. Deejay may have better insights.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 09 May 2016 12:08


shiv
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shiv » 09 May 2016 17:18

What's the thing on the pylon?
Austin wrote:Red Flag Alaska


Image


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rakall » 09 May 2016 17:21

shiv wrote:What's the thing on the pylon?
Austin wrote:Red Flag Alaska


Image



ACMI pod..

Records the aircraft flight & maneuvering data for analysis after sorties..


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 10 May 2016 17:32

Akshay Kapoor wrote:...
What is. Bisons combat radius ?
...


Should be very similar to the LCA at around 300-to-350km on internal fuel. With external tanks, it would max out around 450-to-500km. Payload would be more for LCA. Vivek Ahuja had done a comparative analysis a while ago.

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby member_20067 » 11 May 2016 02:56

What is the general immigration rules for Pilots who participates in bi-lateral exercises? During transition as well as while staying at the host country in this case USA

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby tsarkar » 11 May 2016 07:45

All serving personnel when deployed overseas are given Diplomatic Passports and enjoy the same privileges.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby member_20067 » 11 May 2016 08:38

tsarkar wrote:All serving personnel when deployed overseas are given Diplomatic Passports and enjoy the same privileges.


Interesting-- so there is concept of Visa-- the diplomatic passport itself is a visa?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby tsarkar » 11 May 2016 09:53

Any person travelling on government duty carries Official Passport or Diplomatic Passports. This imparts a degree of official government protection to the bearer of these passports

Official passport is of white colour while Diplomatic Passport is maroon.

VISA depends. Countries listed below offer visa less stay for Diplomatic and Official passport holders

http://passportindia.gov.in/AppOnlinePr ... endix.html

I've never been to US on Official Passports, but they issue A and G series Visas. There is also a NATO visa issued in US

Places like Somalia - no one gives a damm

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 14 May 2016 03:08

Karan M wrote:Further, IAF has also finalised long term repair agreement with Russian OEMs to improve availability of aircraft for operational use.

The most important line. Instead of spending all it has on Rafale or some other platform.


That sort of OEM PBL should have been part of the original deal itself. More than a decade has passed. But I guess better late that never.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby brar_w » 14 May 2016 06:33

It all depends where its coming from. Western OEM's have competition and they all play very aggressively for it, including borrowing heavily form commercial best-practices where a lot of them themselves play. Defense PBL deals continue to borrow from commercial successes in big data analytics, inventory management, logistics etc. Its very much a domain driven by commercial and followed by the defense industry as opposed to the other way around.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 14 May 2016 07:11

That sort of PBL is what will make the IAF look more and more favorably at Boeing, LM etc. The Russians are politically reliable, make rugged airframes and their support was haphazard requiring political intervention.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby rakall » 18 May 2016 16:03

MoS Home Kiren Rijiju flew a sortie in SU30MKI today..

https://twitter.com/sachinsingh1010/sta ... 4199244800

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby nits » 18 May 2016 18:09

Image

Smart Chap :D

Source - Rediff

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby deejay » 18 May 2016 19:21

Image

The one on the left is a very close friend.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby vishvak » 18 May 2016 22:40

viewtopic.php?p=2019856#p2019856
IAF has 100% serviceability at the Red Flag 2016 in USA. Prolly some can be sent to Syria for war time exp? The IAF fighter jets will have another exercise in UAE before returning.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 22 May 2016 08:31

HAL Chief Interview http://bharatshakti.in/hal-plans-to-dou ... -says-cmd/

NG: Give us an update on the manufacture of Sukhoi Su 30MkI.


TSR: SU-30 MKI aircraft is being manufactured by HAL under licence from Russia. The licence manufacturing is being carried in four phases which includes manufacture from raw materials. The complete technology has been absorbed by HAL and current orders are likely to be liquidated by 2019-20. HAL has produced 174 Su-30 MKI aircraft out of order for 222 aircraft till Mar 2016. HAL has manufactured approx 39000 components in airframe and 1015 aggregates. Further HAL has manufactured around 5600 components for Engines by absorbing 133 new technologies. Even the Casting & Forgings required for engine has been mastered by HAL within India. Today all components defined in the scope of ToT are made in India by HAL with 100% technology absorption for Airframe and Engine.

HAL is the first agency in the world to establish full facilities for the MRO of Su-30MKI. The facilities for MRO are established for Airframe, Engines and 736 aggregates at Nasik, Koraput, Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa Divisions. HAL could successfully overhaul two aircraft during 2014-15 and delivered to IAF. Further, four aircraft were overhauled during 2015-16.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 22 May 2016 16:36

^^^

Anyone know the capacity of the facilities for MRO of Su-30MKI? How many overhauls will they be able to do in a year once all facilities are established? According to A.Shukla's article, at any given point 24-26% are either undergoing or awaiting major repairs/overhauls. That means around 70 airframes for a fleet of 270 Su-30MKIs. I would think the overhaul/repair capacity needs to be at least 56/year (80% of 70 units).

Government takes note of Su-30MKI’s poor serviceability
...
According to figures presented in those meeting (a) 20 per cent of the fleet, i.e. some 39 Su-30MKIs, are undergoing “first line” and “second line” maintenance or inspections at any time, which is the IAF’s responsibility; (b) Another 11-12 per cent of the fleet is undergoing major repair and overhaul by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and (c) 13-14 per cent of the fleet is grounded, awaiting major systems or repairs --- the technical terms is: “aircraft on ground”.
...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 28 May 2016 21:21

From this news posted it seems HAL cannot make more than 12 MKI per year

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16107/ ... 0nNL-RcuPU

India’s Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will require four more years to manufacture the remaining 48 Su-30MKI aircraft out of a total order of 222 fighters placed with it by the Indian Air Force.

“HAL has produced 174 Su-30 MKI aircraft out of order for 222 aircraft till Mar 2016. The complete technology has been absorbed by HAL and current orders are likely to be liquidated by 2019-20,” T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL said in an interview to a web portal, Bharatshakti Wednesday.

HAL last month had stated that it has produced 12 Su-30 MKI aircraft from raw material phase during the fiscal year 2015-16. With the current rate of production, it is possible to finish the production of the remaining 48 aircraft of 222 ordered by 2020.

Irkut Corporation, during the Aero India Airshow in February last year had said in a statement that it would complete deliveries of Su-30MKI aircraft kits to HAL by the end of 2015.

SU-30 MKI aircraft is being manufactured by HAL under licence from Russia. The licence manufacturing is being carried in four phases, the last stage of which includes manufacture from the raw material stage.

“HAL has manufactured approximately 39000 components in airframe and 1015 aggregates. Further HAL has manufactured around 5600 components for Engines by absorbing 133 new technologies. Even the Casting & Forgings required for engine has been mastered by HAL within India. Today all components defined in the scope of transfer of technology are made in India by HAL with 100% technology absorption for Airframe and engines,” he said.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 28 May 2016 21:22

Russia To Provide Five Full Mission Simulators For SU-30MKI Aircraft

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16022/ ... 0nNQORcuPU

India’s Defence Acquisition Council has approved purchase of five Full Mission Simulators for Su-30MKI aircraft.

The contract was signed with a Russian firm for the supply of simulators during 2015-16, Business Standard reported. The value of the contract is not known.

According to the Indian Air Force, at present, more than 200 Su-30MKI fighters have been inducted into active service.

The simulators are produced by Spetztekhnika, a Moscow area company. It also makes flight simulators for the Su-22M4 fighter bomber, the Su-25SM attack aircraft, the Su-27SM air superiority fighter besides the Indo-Russian Su-30MKI fighter jet.

Irkut corporation had displayed the Su-30MKI simulator at the Aero India 2013 show in Bangalore.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 29 May 2016 07:41

Austin wrote:From this news posted it seems HAL cannot make more than 12 MKI per year

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16107/ ... 0nNL-RcuPU

...


I think they are still doing assembly from Russian supplied SKD on top of the 12 from raw materials. So the floor capacity should be higher than 12/year. It maybe around 16 or 18/year.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 29 May 2016 08:49

^^ AFAIK the MKI produces are from raw materials only , CKD/SKD has stopped long back.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 29 May 2016 09:02

kits, those last additional orders

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby JTull » 25 Jun 2016 13:54

1000 multi-function displays for Sukhoi 30 MKI handed over to HAL

About 1,000 units of indigenously manufactured multi-function display (MFD) for installation in India's frontline Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter aircraft has been handed over to state-run HAL.

The displays were manufactured by Samtel HAL Display Systems (SHDS), a joint venture between Samtel Avionics and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Now out of a planned fleet of 272 Sukhoi aircraft with the Indian Air Force, 143 would be flying with India-made MFDs - a critical component of an aircraft cockpit.

SHDS is the only company to receive CEMILAC (Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification) Type Approval for manufacturing MFDs.

The Samtel-HAL joint venture was set up in 2007 to address the avionics requirements, including test benches and systems for all IAF star platforms - both fixed and rotary wing.

The journey began in 2004, when Samtel signed the contract with Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO, earlier called as DARE) for technology development of Su-30 MFDs.

After 5-6 years of efforts, Samtel was able to fully develop the technology and it was envisaged by HAL and the Ministry of Defense to create a centre of excellence in the form of JV to nurture this home grown technology.

Samtel as a parent company would bring in this technology for lateral deployment on all platforms - Su-30, light combat aircraft (LCA), intermediate jet trainer (IJT), light combat helicopter (LCH) among others and HAL as the other partner would bring in the market for using these displays on all HAL star platforms. PTI SAP 100 multi-function displays for Sukhoi 30 handed over to HAL.


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