Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Cain Marko
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Apr 2018 22:43

Yes, the Hawa force of the talibunnies. My point was that they were sold the 9M version of the mijjile and not the later 9x IIR version, which could have been more dangerous.

IOWs, the tspaf solah has no practical advantage over the rambha in a2a, neither BVR nor wvr other than perhaps being a much smaller airframe providing a smaller visual signature.

At best these are equal to upgraded fulcrums and mirages although both these have certain advantages over that bird such as the mica and a powerful irst on the fulcrum.

The rambha is in a different space

Karan M
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2018 23:54

Cain Marko wrote:I'm not sure they have any SRM advantage. IIRC they don't have the AIM9X, which could have been a greater threat.


Mirage 2000 Mica-IR (WVR/BVR)
Jaguars ASRAAM (WVR)
Su-30 MKI, MiG-21Bison, MiG-29 R-73E (WVR)
LCA R-73E, ASRAAM (?) (WVR)
MiG-21 Bis Magic-2, R-60MK (WVR)

I think our first priority should be to replace the BVR weapons on Su-30 (get as many Astras into service as possible, to bolster the limited stocks of serviceable RVV-AE) and then move to getting a new WVR missile for the Russian fleet into service. Perhaps even an Indian design.

Austin
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 30 Apr 2018 09:00

Naval Su-30SM Flanker Deployed at the Khmeimim airfield in Syria , Note the fully deployed R-73 & R-77-1 RVV-SD on Su-30SM

Image
Image
Image

srai
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 30 Apr 2018 11:32

Karan M wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:I'm not sure they have any SRM advantage. IIRC they don't have the AIM9X, which could have been a greater threat.


Mirage 2000 Mica-IR (WVR/BVR)
Jaguars ASRAAM (WVR)
Su-30 MKI, MiG-21Bison, MiG-29 R-73E (WVR)
LCA R-73E, ASRAAM (?) (WVR)
MiG-21 Bis Magic-2, R-60MK (WVR)

I think our first priority should be to replace the BVR weapons on Su-30 (get as many Astras into service as possible, to bolster the limited stocks of serviceable RVV-AE) and then move to getting a new WVR missile for the Russian fleet into service. Perhaps even an Indian design.

It looks like Astra (RF serker) already possesses CCM capability. Adding an IR seeker would make it comparable to MICA RF/IR.

Image

Cain Marko
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 01 May 2018 05:40

I assume that the mki can still do quite well at long ranges using the r27 er sarh homer. Will these be used as second tier weapons or just junked once the Astra comes in numbers.

Not too long ago the iaf bought r27 stocks from Ukraine iurc.

But yes, overall Astra is the only real choice available and should be produced in massive quantities

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 01 May 2018 18:04

Angola has bought 12 of our erstwhile SU-30s,the first batch which was mothballed in Belarus. They apparently want another 6. If they are that relevant,I can't understand why we trashed them.We could've had another sqd. of the same ,used as bomb trucks for PGMs,far better than our other med. sized aircraft!

deejay
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby deejay » 01 May 2018 18:14

Philip wrote:Angola has bought 12 of our erstwhile SU-30s,the first batch which was mothballed in Belarus. They apparently want another 6. If they are that relevant,I can't understand why we trashed them.We could've had another sqd. of the same ,used as bomb trucks for PGMs,far better than our other med. sized aircraft!


Because... "Relevant for Angola isn't necessarily Relevant for us."

India moved beyond Angola's orbit long time back.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JTull » 01 May 2018 19:28

Philip wrote:Angola has bought 12 of our erstwhile SU-30s,the first batch which was mothballed in Belarus. They apparently want another 6. If they are that relevant,I can't understand why we trashed them.We could've had another sqd. of the same ,used as bomb trucks for PGMs,far better than our other med. sized aircraft!


Wow! New depths.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 01 May 2018 21:16

KaranM, Can you dig up Astra cost structure from any contracts? I think Jaitley had inaugurated the Astra assy facility in Kerala as part of the Brahmos complex.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Indranil » 02 May 2018 02:36

deejay wrote:
Philip wrote:Angola has bought 12 of our erstwhile SU-30s,the first batch which was mothballed in Belarus. They apparently want another 6. If they are that relevant,I can't understand why we trashed them.We could've had another sqd. of the same ,used as bomb trucks for PGMs,far better than our other med. sized aircraft!


Because... "Relevant for Angola isn't necessarily Relevant for us."

India moved beyond Angola's orbit long time back.

Plus, we had a contract. The MKIs were not ready in time for induction. So the Su-30s were supplied till they could be replaced bu MKIs. Once the MKIs came we were contractually obligated to return them.

ramana wrote:KaranM, Can you dig up Astra cost structure from any contracts? I think Jaitley had inaugurated the Astra assy facility in Kerala as part of the Brahmos complex.

LSPs built by BDL. SPs to be built by BDL too.

ramana
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 02 May 2018 04:54

ramana wrote:KaranM, Can you dig up Astra cost structure from any contracts? I think Jaitley had inaugurated the Astra assy facility in Kerala as part of the Brahmos complex.



Looks like $2M per missile with imported seeker.


Link: ReDiff Link

The Astra is fired from the Russian Vympel launcher -- a rail under a fighter aircraft's wing from which the missile hangs.

The Vympel launcher is integrated with all four of India's current generation fighters -- the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and the Tejas -- allowing the Astra to be fired from all of them.

Astra components that have been developed indigenously. But the missile's seeker head is still imported.This is a key development thrust for the DRDO. On the drawing board is a longer-range Astra Mark II, intended to shoot down enemy fighters up to 100 km away.

With the Indian Air Force operating 600 to 700 fighter aircraft, there will be a need for several thousand Astra missiles.

With air-to-air missiles costing in the region of $2 million each, the Astra will provide major business opportunities to Indian firms.




A pre-production run of 50 missiles has been ordered.
Development phase completed by December 2018.


Now how much WVR and Russian imports cost?

Firstly Astra can replace Russian imports.
Secondly if its cost effective it can be used instead of IR missiles then.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Prithwiraj » 02 May 2018 05:53

2 Million per missile !!!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 02 May 2018 06:07

@Austin

the Russian Su30s posted above.
Assume they are operated by the navy ?

Are they land based .... I can't see the carrier air hooks.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 02 May 2018 07:59

Prithwiraj wrote:2 Million per missile !!!


It's cheap compared to imports of same price.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 02 May 2018 08:01

Prithwiraj wrote:2 Million per missile !!!


Well worth it, if they are very accurate and reliable. After all they will be bringing down targets which will be of an order of at least 15 to 20 times, their own price

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 02 May 2018 09:40

Exactly $2 million is penuts if a pair of these can take out a $60 million aircraft.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 02 May 2018 09:40

Khalsa wrote:@Austin

the Russian Su30s posted above.
Assume they are operated by the navy ?

Are they land based .... I can't see the carrier air hooks.


Its a land based one operated by their Navy just like our Jags IM

Austin
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 02 May 2018 09:47

Cain Marko wrote:I assume that the mki can still do quite well at long ranges using the r27 er sarh homer. Will these be used as second tier weapons or just junked once the Astra comes in numbers.

Not too long ago the iaf bought r27 stocks from Ukraine iurc.

But yes, overall Astra is the only real choice available and should be produced in massive quantities


I dont think they will junk any missile as long as it is usable , if you want to take out a low flying cruise missile or a UAV at long range they can always use the R-27 its got long leg and higher energy , if they want to take a HVA they can use Astra or R-77 , Even the so called BVR missile with active seeker would go active only during the last 5-10 or max 15 km of its final stage depending on target rcs for the rest they still need to be provided MCG via aircraft radar. SARH missile on AAM or SAM has its own virtue

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 12:07

useless post deleted. Philip sir you will get a warning next time if you repeat this

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JTull » 02 May 2018 13:17

--- deleted ---

Karthik S
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karthik S » 02 May 2018 13:40

--- deleted ---

Khalsa
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 02 May 2018 14:54

Austin wrote:
Khalsa wrote:@Austin

the Russian Su30s posted above.
Assume they are operated by the navy ?

Are they land based .... I can't see the carrier air hooks.


Its a land based one operated by their Navy just like our Jags IM



Thank you sir and thank you for providing the comparison.
I was going to ask about the role etc too.

A flanker that is really tickling my taste buds now is the J-15D electronic carrier variant.
Great modding by the Chinese.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 17:55

I don't understand the logic.We openly are trying to buy old aircraft from Malaysia and France of inferior types to an SU-30 but have dumped our first SU-30s.Can anyone offer a logical explanation for the same?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 02 May 2018 18:07

Philip simple- SU-30K is a different aircraft from SU-30MKI, from Radar, canards, electronics etc. No point having separate maintenance for 18 aircraft.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby jaysimha » 02 May 2018 18:20

ITEMS IDENTIFIED FOR INDIGENISATION FOR "MAKE IN INDIA": SU-30MKI
http://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/IAF%20Su-30m%20MI-17,%20MiG-29.pdf

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 18:24

Tx.Aditya.However, by the same yardstick, how do ex-Malaysian or French MIG-29s and Jags built to non- IAF standards , requiring much modernisation and upgradation going to help us either?Anyway it is academic now, Those birds ( SUs) have flown.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kakarat » 02 May 2018 22:47

Philip wrote:Tx.Aditya.However, by the same yardstick, how do ex-Malaysian or French MIG-29s and Jags built to non- IAF standards , requiring much modernisation and upgradation going to help us either?Anyway it is academic now, Those birds ( SUs) have flown.


The french Jags are only for cannibalization
IAF plans to get old defunct aircraft from France to run its fleet

If IAF buys Malaysian Mig-29s then they will go through the upgrades and brought to Mig-29upg standards, so wont be different from Indian Mig-29s but there hasent any thing more than an announcement

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 02 May 2018 23:06

Philip wrote:I don't understand the logic.We openly are trying to buy old aircraft from Malaysia and France of inferior types to an SU-30 but have dumped our first SU-30s.Can anyone offer a logical explanation for the same?


MiG-29s to be bought cheaply to be put through the UPG upgrade and get a decent multi-role aircraft. The upgrades are available if the platform is available. Experience doing the upgrades is also there with BRD. So it only allows for quick additions to an existing type.

The Jaguars from France were simply to be used as Christmas trees, for spares that are no longer available, since HAL doesn't produce Jaguars any longer either. Just to keep the existing fleet flying.

What do we need Su-30Ks for, when we have MKIs that are a generation ahead in terms of avionics? Spares supply is available and if the IAF wants, it can order more MKIs itself. Why waste money on the Su-30Ks then?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 23:10

Understood.However, in the case of the 120+ Jags to be upgraded, how will we support them if we no longer manufacture their spares? We will have to reopen the line for some substantial work as the proposed Honywell upgrades are extensive including engines, etc.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 02 May 2018 23:21

The MiG-29 story came from an aspirational statement from the Malaysian PM visiting India as barter payment for Su-30MKI spares Malaysia is purchasing but can't afford to pay cash. It should go to unsolicited offer thread. No one in India is interested.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 04 May 2018 02:29

Philip wrote:I don't understand the logic.We openly are trying to buy old aircraft from Malaysia and France of inferior types to an SU-30 but have dumped our first SU-30s.Can anyone offer a logical explanation for the same?


I gave you point for that.
But at that time our SU-30 make in India factory was coming up and we had actually super thrashed the 30Ks.

There is not intent to manufacture Mig-29 and the Factory for Jag is bye bye.
But I agree you still have a point.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 04 May 2018 03:18

Philip wrote:or French MIG-29s and Jags built to non- IAF standards


Aren't the jags just for spares?? They are not for flying!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 04 May 2018 05:02

Philip wrote:I don't understand the logic.We openly are trying to buy old aircraft from Malaysia and France of inferior types to an SU-30 but have dumped our first SU-30s.Can anyone offer a logical explanation for the same?

The Jags are being used as Christmas trees. They are NOT airworthy and the French have clearly conveyed that to India. And since tsarkar has already debunked the MiG-29 purchase, you have no argument.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 04 May 2018 05:48

Rakesh, In 1968, Pakistan bought a large number of scrap F86 grom West Germany which was moving to an all F104G air force. It turned out most of them were hardly used and Pak got a great reinforcement.

All Philip is saying is don't be ready to condemn them. Let IAF see their air worthiness and decide.

Yes we know his Russian bias but he has seen lots of stuff.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vips » 04 May 2018 07:09

Pakis bought 40 Mirage III's from Australia in 1990, 40 Refurbished Mirage III and Mirage V from France in 1997 and also 50 Mirage III and 150 spare engines from Libya in 1998.The last lot of jets which were lying unused in Libya for more then a decade were cannibalized to keep its fleet flying.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 04 May 2018 08:42

But also remember for the last 25 years there have atleast 3 crashes a year, I doubt there will be more than 50 operational Mirages.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 May 2018 15:05

Flt.Lt.Achudev was the pilot of sukhoi-30 mki which went missing on 23 may 2017 and on 24 may the crash site of sukhoi confirmed at 60km northwest of the dispur air base and letter news was confirmed that both pilot and navigator fail to eject out of jet and died in line of duty . we salute their sacrifices for the nation. Jai hind


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 07 May 2018 10:53

^ That was hard to watch.. a simple, happy, fun-loving youth. Photos which would be so like yours and mine. Except those at the end.
My humble respect to him.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 10 May 2018 01:24

X-Post from the Indian Air Force: News & Discussion thread....

Expect these Rambhas to be armed with the BrahMos to strike at Chinese carrier groups in the Malacca Straits.

India aims to base IAF fighters on Andaman and Nicobar archipelago
http://www.janes.com/article/79950/indi ... rchipelago

The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to permanently base fighter aircraft and other combat assets on the Andaman and Nicobar Islands off India’s east coast to enhance its presence and capabilities in the region. Official sources told Jane’s on 9 May that the IAF is extending and upgrading runways and the overall infrastructure at the Car Nicobar and nearby Campbell Bay air bases to station fighter aircraft such as Sukhoi Su-30MKIs and boost the country’s sole tri-service Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC). They said the plan also aims to create a “credible” multi-service command to enhance combat efficiency, avoid asset duplication and optimise resources, before replicating it in other parts of the country in keeping with the intentions of the federal government in New Delhi.

-----------------------------------------------

See this map first of the Malacca Straits (make a point to NOTE where the City of Malacca in Malaysia is on the map)....

https://www.welt-atlas.de/map_of_strait ... acca_6-847

....and then click on the link below.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... strait.jpg
Image Caption ---> The Strait of Malacca as viewed from the city of Malacca, Malaysia. Indonesia is visible in the distance.

Chinese carriers are going to have a hard time countering the BrahMos. Not going to be a cake walk for either side, but a BrahMos-armed Rambha makes carrier ops for the PLAN challenging. Exercise Gagan Shakti validated that concept.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 10 May 2018 01:29

They could also quite easily load land based bhramos for equally devastating effect.


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