Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Singha
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Singha » 05 Feb 2015 14:12

yes the kh31p will be enough for those.

Yagnasri yes some aam's have the home on jam (HOJ) feature. but I dont there is any ARM or AAM with dual radar and IIR seeker.

lockheed has developed a tri-mode mmw, iir, laser seeker but I think for smaller missiles only.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 05 Feb 2015 14:15

Singha wrote:their crotale-NG units are mobile. they might also have obtained some mobile kit from china


We need the NGARM for China itself! No shortage of SAMs there. Wonder why get so Pak centric on the forum.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 05 Feb 2015 15:07

I think we are developing capabilities keeping the lizard in mind. Not pakiland. In any event one can not rule out Khan giving lot of "aid" to Pakis on regular basis.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Gyan » 05 Feb 2015 18:27

My guess is that NGRAM would be something like Kh-31 equivalent.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby brar_w » 05 Feb 2015 18:32

Singha wrote:yes the kh31p will be enough for those.

Yagnasri yes some aam's have the home on jam (HOJ) feature. but I dont there is any ARM or AAM with dual radar and IIR seeker.

lockheed has developed a tri-mode mmw, iir, laser seeker but I think for smaller missiles only.


A tri mode seeker exists for various weapons. While many have called for a dual seeker for A2A missiles, and one may even be in development given the secrecy surrounding future AMRAAM replacement programs (Namely, the SACM and the Triple target terminator, that latter havingg tested two ramjet powered examples a few years ago) what may actually happen is that they may develop a very advanced RF seeker possibly AESA and give it the optimum power. Another thing that is likely to improve is the speed of the weapon with the engagements becoming shorter (due to stealth and jamming) rather than longer ranged. Japan and UK have just signed an MOU to incorporate Japanese AESA seeker into the meteor.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Feb 2015 18:37

srai wrote:^^^

FYI, DRDO has a 100-km range Next-Gen Anti-Radiation Missile (NGARM) project.

Image


We still don't know for sure whether the missile in the picture is NGARM. It looks like air to surface missile and plenty of ARMs have the same form factor, but we may be in for a surprise.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby member_24684 » 05 Feb 2015 18:40

.

Is that we have a NGARM program for the T 50

The Tactical Missiles Corporation (TMC) company is completing official trials of the Kh-58UShK anti-radiation missile intended to be fired from the internal weapons bay of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, general director Boris Obnosov told IHS Jane's at Airshow China 2014.


Janes

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 05 Feb 2015 18:53

can we discuss this on missile thread .

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby ramana » 08 Feb 2015 06:46

Whatever happened to the 40 odd Su-30s that IAF was going to ge for the Strategic Forces? Was it also a shell game announcement by MMS and co?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby darshhan » 08 Feb 2015 10:58

ramana wrote:Whatever happened to the 40 odd Su-30s that IAF was going to ge for the Strategic Forces? Was it also a shell game announcement by MMS and co?

Ramana ji, paisa bhi to bona chahiye (Money should also be there). Coffers are empty. See the case with mountain strike corps. From Mahmud ghaznavi to abdali to british, the loot witnessed under upa rule was never seen before.

On a side note. Many people are saying that Namo is showing off by meeting Obama and other western leaders. He is not. He is just desperate for investment considering the precarious state of finances in India.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Viv S » 08 Feb 2015 11:36

ramana wrote:Whatever happened to the 40 odd Su-30s that IAF was going to ge for the Strategic Forces? Was it also a shell game announcement by MMS and co?


There was a proposal for the last batch of (BrahMos equipped) Su-30MKIs to be operated under the aegis of the SFC. The plan was apparently junked, but the aircraft are still on order for IAF. (Though given the secrecy associated with the SFC, for all we know, the proposal might have been green lighted after all.)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby ramana » 08 Feb 2015 20:28

srai wrote:^^^

FYI, DRDO has a 100-km range Next-Gen Anti-Radiation Missile (NGARM) project.

Image



srai, Thanks. Finally is showing up. It was on paper since the early 90s. Only it used to be 130km.

Question does it talk of the heritage or lineage?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Philip » 08 Feb 2015 21:50

With the state of the rouble in recent times,though prices of oil are rising,Russia might accept any form of barter payment for the 40 MKIs. The announcement that the BMos integration is now complete will surely make it indispensable for the IAF acquiring the 40+ MKIs to BMos std.That is why the news has been silent so far,perhaps waiting for the successful modifications of the aircraft which will certainly be the std. specs for the new aircraft. I don't think that finance will be a problem as these aircraft are now being manufactured in India ,with "70%" made from materials in India" achieved thus far,the aim to be "100%" within a few years.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Paul » 08 Feb 2015 21:53

India made SUs are more expensive than Russia made ones. All raw matl has to be imported from Russia

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Feb 2015 22:46

darshhan wrote:
ramana wrote:Whatever happened to the 40 odd Su-30s that IAF was going to ge for the Strategic Forces? Was it also a shell game announcement by MMS and co?

Ramana ji, paisa bhi to bona chahiye (Money should also be there). Coffers are empty. See the case with mountain strike corps. From Mahmud ghaznavi to abdali to british, the loot witnessed under upa rule was never seen before.

On a side note. Many people are saying that Namo is showing off by meeting Obama and other western leaders. He is not. He is just desperate for investment considering the precarious state of finances in India.


+1

Also, just a riff on your Aida 'Fortune Favors the Brave' tagline. In my life I have found that fortune favors the lucky. :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby srai » 09 Feb 2015 08:52

ramana wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

FYI, DRDO has a 100-km range Next-Gen Anti-Radiation Missile (NGARM) project.

Image



srai, Thanks. Finally is showing up. It was on paper since the early 90s. Only it used to be 130km.

Question does it talk of the heritage or lineage?


In terms of form factor, my guess would be Martel AS.37. Even the Russians have X-58UShk based off that design. As we have seen with other DRDO designs, initial design would follow a proven form in service but after several development iterations the final design would be a much revised one.

Martel AS.37
Image
Image

X-58UShk
Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Feb 2015 10:56

Paul wrote:India made SUs are more expensive than Russia made ones. All raw matl has to be imported from Russia


Still nowhere in Rafale range though.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Philip » 09 Feb 2015 13:08

Official reports say that as of now ,"70%" of raw matl. is now sourced only from India. Aim to achieve 100% in a couple of years.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby vishvak » 09 Feb 2015 17:10

How is it more expensive even if all raw material has to be imported. Plus actual cost would be in terms of x% of forex + y% in Indian Rupees, including manufacturing cost within India.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby pralay » 09 Feb 2015 17:29

Philip wrote:Official reports say that as of now ,"70%" of raw matl. is now sourced only from India. Aim to achieve 100% in a couple of years.

Is "Source from India" always "Manufactured in India" in official terms? just noob question.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby JTull » 09 Feb 2015 19:41

pralay wrote:
Philip wrote:Official reports say that as of now ,"70%" of raw matl. is now sourced only from India. Aim to achieve 100% in a couple of years.

Is "Source from India" always "Manufactured in India" in official terms? just noob question.


pralay, if we're talking of raw materials, where does the manufacturing question come from?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby brar_w » 16 Feb 2015 19:33

Irkut to conclude shipment of Su-30MKI kits to India

Russia’s Irkut will complete deliveries of Sukhoi Su-30MKI assembly kits to India in 2015, with the firm stating that a “complete transfer of technology” has taken place in the programme.

When deliveries are completed, the Russian firm will have delivered a total of 222 kits, it says in a statement. Hindustan Aernautics (HAL) builds the Su-30MKI under license at its Nashik factory.

“Currently HAL is in Phase IV of assembly, which means it is manufacturing parts from the raw material stage with complete transfer of technology from Irkut Corporation,” it says. “The Su-30MKI program is a shining example of India-Russia defence cooperation.”Irkut adds that HAL has also “mastered” the overhaul of the fighter type, having delivered the first overhauled aircraft to the air force at the end of 2014.

“To master the whole scope of overhaul procedure is a real challenge with the overhaul technology documentation having been developed by HAL specialists,” it says. “We at Irkut supplied the overhaul equipment and assisted in their installation and shared with HAL our experience in such work.”

Future work related to the programme includes the integration of the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile and other aircraft upgrades.

The Su-30MKI is the most important type in the Indian air force, with HAL expected to complete deliveries of 272 aircraft by 2020.

Delays with a planned acquisition of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters under the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme have led to speculation that New Delhi could opt to instead increase its number of Su-30MKIs.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Feb 2015 23:13

Sourced from India same as manufactured in India?


pralay, if we're talking of raw materials, where does the manufacturing question come from?


Sourced from India, imported from Russia, means, iron ore and coal and manganese ore and bauxite and titanium ore from India taken to Russia, where thorium from Indian sands is used to power Russian reactor to run the smelter to make the steel and titanium alloys which are then imported into India. 100 perjent india-geniusy with only 99.99 barjent imborted phoren collaborashun onlee. OK, outa here b4 the ban comes.. :eek:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 17 Feb 2015 19:55


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby ldev » 17 Feb 2015 20:41

SU-30 with Brahmos at Aero India. Courtesy Shiv Aroor.

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 17 Feb 2015 21:09

ldev wrote:SU-30 with Brahmos at Aero India. Courtesy Shiv Aroor.

Image

First time seeing a SB4xx series SU-30 MKI!!!
Maybe these are the 42 specials ordered!!!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby sooraj » 17 Feb 2015 21:18

Shrinivasan wrote:
ldev wrote:SU-30 with Brahmos at Aero India. Courtesy Shiv Aroor.

Image

First time seeing a SB4xx series SU-30 MKI!!!
Maybe these are the 42 specials ordered!!!


su-35 = super 30 sukhoi

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Aditya G » 17 Feb 2015 21:33

^ Is that a flight test dummy or simply a repainted model we have seen earlier

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 18 Feb 2015 11:38

Tarmak blog has a pic of yet another 4xx series SU-30 MKI, SB 413...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Vipul » 19 Feb 2015 18:03

IAF to get SU-30 fitted with BrahMos.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to receive the first Sukhoi-30 MKI fitted with the homegrown BrahMos thermonuclear cruise missile, marking a shift towards an indigenous missile era.

TOI had reported on January 29 that the first flight of the BrahMos-integrated Sukhoi is likely in March. HAL, which has completed the integration, will hand over the documents to IAF either on Thursday or Friday, as the aircraft is now ready for IAF's use.

This will allow India to order surgical strikes destroying targets about 300km away. The IAF has an initial requirement of two aircraft. "One of them is complete and we will receive it tomorrow (Thursday) in all likelihood. Otherwise it will be done on Friday," a senior officer told TOI.
Confirming this, an HAL official said: "As part of the project IAF eventually seeks to integrate 216 air-version missiles on 42 Sukhoi fighters."

The penetration of BrahMos would put Su-30 MKI, IAF's backbone as far as fighters are concerned, in a place where it can compete with some of the best fighters in the world.

While the onus of integrating the missile with the aircraft was on BrahMos Aerospace, HAL was asked to complete certain crucial modifications that allows the missile team to fulfill its responsibility. A conservative timeline for integrating the second Su-30 MKI would be about 13 months, HAL sources said.

In order to integrate the missile, HAL and the IAF in the last few months had to change several things, including modifications to the fuselage, to accommodate the 9m-long missile.

Even as IAF gears up to use the supersonic missile on one of its best fighters, BrahMos Aerospace is working to develop a hypersonic version of a cruise missile. Having set a target of over 10 years, sources said: "If that target is met, we may well become the first country to have a hypersonic missile."

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Singha » 19 Feb 2015 18:21

>> HAL said it took up the programme as "an indigenous challenge" at its Nasik division in 2010 and overcame several difficulties due to limited design data of Su-30 MKI.

reading between the lines is it a domestic effort because sukhoi refused to help or asked too high a price for it?

and why 13 months to upg the next plane...that shows a total lack of urgency in equipping our anti IADS strike force....

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Prasad » 19 Feb 2015 18:35

Sirji,
I remember reading something long back, a few years back I think, that Sukhoi bero wasn't forthright in giving our fellows detailed design documents so that we could work on modifying its structure. So we had a tough time getting this project off the blocks. Not so much a price but more on the T-90 barrel types.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Philip » 19 Feb 2015 18:45

Was chatting with the BMos guy,got interrupted when a VIP,one of the vice-chiefs came for his appointment/briefing,but gleaned this info.Why no sub model of BMos.BMos team frustrated as the package is ready,but no sub available.The thrust is now on BMos-M,the mini version which can be fired from std. tubes with no reduction in range.An MKI can carry 5,weight was told to me,but its better not mentioned for now.The smaller version when ready will allow a larger amt. of missiles to be carried aboard our warships and other platforms. There was an MKI briefing from the Russians ,but wasn't able to make it.Perhaps someone else was there.

Going through some of the show dailies/mags,the MKI TOT is now "complete".Irkut has delivered according to the OEM.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2015 19:51

Yes Philip. They asked for a Kilo class to be available to test it out. However seeing the sparse numbers after the Sindhu class IN declined. They should have made one of the older boats avaialable for testing purposes as it stretches the development time.
But then we don't have the IN's insight.

Meanwhile Sukhoi blames human factors for last crash in October 2014:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/human-factor ... 443-3.html

"Human factor" was responsible for the crash of the Sukhoi-30 MKI in October last year that led to the grounding of the entire fleet of India's frontline fighter plane for a month, according to the manufacturer.

"Out stand is human factor," said Vitaly Borodich, Vice President (Military Sales) of Russia's Irkut Corporation. Irkut is the subsidiary of Russia's state-run United Aircraft Corporation which is the umbrella organization of the country's aerospace industry.

Borodich said that the Indian Air Force has also accepted that it is a human factor. "They (IAF) do accept and therefore the aircraft is in operation," he said briefing a group of journalists on the sidelines of the Aero India air show.

The Indian Air Force had ordered a Court of Inquiry in to the crash but a final report is yet to come out. Russian experts, including Borodich, had flown down to help in the enquiry. Borodich said the Russian stand has come after a thorough study of all record and technical inspection.

The IAF has claimed that the crash happened due to the "automatic ejection" of the pilot seat while landing near Pune in October. Following the crash, the entire fleet was grounded for a month before being allowed to fly back again in November.

It was the longest period for which the fleet was grounded since 2009 when its operation was suspended for nearly three weeks following an accident. The aircraft was being flown by two officers - Wing Commander Sidharth Vishwas Munje and Flying Officer Anup Singh - when the crash happened. Wing Commander Munje, who was the senior pilot on the aircraft, had been involved in the first ever crash of a Su30 fighter in 2009 when his co-pilot was killed.

The court of inquiry into the crash had found that the officer had mistakenly switched off the fly by wire systems of the fighter, causing the crash. While a design change was made by putting a sheath on the fly by wire switch to prevent any further such incident, it was found that the co-pilot died as an ejection seat harness broke due to excessive exposure from the sun.


There are two causes for the two accidents.
The plane crashed due to FBW switched off by pilot. And this one is human factor. But why did the pilot think he needs to switch it off?
The co-pilot died due to ejection seat harness breaking/fragile due to sun exposure. This one is a design deficiency as being in India will lead to sun exposure.

Plastics harden with light or sun exposure. Looks like that was the case.
So pre-flight procedures for ground crew should include checking the harness fragility.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 19 Feb 2015 19:59

^^ They need to park the aircraft in some kind of shelter and not let it be on tarmac exposed to sun for long hours , something like this should do good

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/ ... 64x532.jpg

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2015 20:35

Singha wrote:>> HAL said it took up the programme as "an indigenous challenge" at its Nasik division in 2010 and overcame several difficulties due to limited design data of Su-30 MKI.

reading between the lines is it a domestic effort because sukhoi refused to help or asked too high a price for it?

and why 13 months to upg the next plane...that shows a total lack of urgency in equipping our anti IADS strike force....


Delay stating work on Su-35/T-50 was a higher priority & also a higher price.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Indranil » 19 Feb 2015 21:03

Austin wrote:^^ They need to park the aircraft in some kind of shelter and not let it be on tarmac exposed to sun for long hours , something like this should do good

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/ ... 64x532.jpg

They have had the shleters at Pune for the last couple of years now.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby pankajs » 19 Feb 2015 21:36

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2m2 minutes ago Bengaluru, Karnataka

HAL Chmn mentions that HAL is looking to become an OEM for the Su-30 MKI. Talks with the Russians are on.
Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2m2 minutes ago Bengaluru, Karnataka

Don't be taken in by the lack of Russian aircraft in the flight line at Yelahanka. Lot of back channel with them is on.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2015 21:55

I wonder what the status on the Su-30 upgrade is??

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 19 Feb 2015 21:59

indranilroy wrote:
Austin wrote:^^ They need to park the aircraft in some kind of shelter and not let it be on tarmac exposed to sun for long hours , something like this should do good

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/ ... 64x532.jpg

They have had the shleters at Pune for the last couple of years now.


May be pune they do but they need to have it at all the locations where it is deployed not just for Su but for other types. Even at AI they just base the aircraft on the tarmac the entire day.


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